famsco
LOGS
14:04:38 <potty> #startmeeting famsco
14:04:38 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Aug 17 14:04:38 2016 UTC.  The chair is potty. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:04:38 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:04:38 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco'
14:04:45 <potty> #topic Roll Call
14:04:49 <potty> .hello potty
14:04:50 <zodbot> potty: potty 'Abdel G. Martínez L.' <abdel.g.martinez.l@gmail.com>
14:06:28 <cwickert> .fas cwickert
14:06:28 <zodbot> cwickert: cwickert 'Christoph Wickert' <christoph.wickert@gmail.com>
14:06:35 <tuanta> .fas tuanta
14:06:39 <zodbot> tuanta: tuanta 'Truong Anh Tuan' <tuanta@iwayvietnam.com>
14:06:49 <gnokii> .fas gnokii
14:06:50 <zodbot> gnokii: gnokii 'Sirko Kemter' <buergermeister@karl-tux-stadt.de>
14:07:52 <potty> Right now we are 4/7
14:08:54 <potty> gnokii, tuanta, cwickert: I see 2 topics to discuss today: FOSCo transition (#373) and Mentoring improvement (#359).
14:09:05 <potty> Do you have another topic to include on the agenda?
14:09:45 <cwickert> potty: 398
14:10:20 <potty> cwickert: right :) thank you!
14:10:25 <potty> let's start then
14:10:34 <potty> #topic About the ambassador status of amsharma
14:10:39 <potty> .famsco 398
14:10:41 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/398
14:11:08 <potty> Latest update on this ticket was from tatica:
14:11:12 <potty> "She already apologize herself, twice on this ticket. Her FAMA ticket was closed and she will keep working with us at Diversity until she decides if she wants to re-aply for ambassador once she feels she wants to. Please, lets all move on."
14:12:00 <cwickert> ok, let's close this and tell kushal to reopen if he is not satisfied
14:12:22 <gnokii> he is not satisfied
14:12:47 <potty> gnokii: oh, how do you know that?
14:12:56 <gnokii> because I spoke with him
14:13:48 <potty> gnokii: did he told you does he need to be satisfied?
14:14:44 <gnokii> yes I would like to quote it but my net is to bad cant open pages, the comment to that was it was in a public channel so it should be also an excuse in that
14:15:24 <potty> gnokii: :( ok...
14:15:45 <potty> sorry gnokii i don't get it
14:16:15 <cwickert> potty: kushal wanted a public apology, but I'm not sure if he will and can get it
14:16:28 <cwickert> frankly speaking I think it will just make things worse
14:16:32 <potty> cwickert: got it
14:16:36 <potty> cwickert: +1
14:16:40 <cwickert> the channel is not logged and there were not that many people present
14:16:55 <gnokii> I think that to, I suggest we close it and invite both in a closed channel to have a talk
14:16:58 <cwickert> the more we talk about it, the more people will get to know about the accoustations
14:17:25 <cwickert> even though the accusations were wrong, it will do damage to both of them if we have a public fight
14:19:31 <potty> So, what will be our action on this?
14:19:43 <potty> 1. Close the ticket and invite them to a closed channel.
14:20:05 <potty> 2. Close the ticket appealing that amsharma made her apologies on the ticket.
14:21:19 <potty> ?
14:22:11 <tuanta> This case may be more complicated. But yes, it's best to close it and discuss with them privately.
14:22:31 <potty> cwickert, gnokii ?
14:22:54 <cwickert> potty: we need somebody to talk to kushal. not sure if tatica is to do it or somebody else
14:23:01 <gnokii> potty look, I suggested 1. so I made my position clear
14:23:09 <potty> gnokii: understood
14:23:37 <gnokii> i can do it again
14:23:40 <potty> cwickert: tatica said she will finish the mediation on this issue
14:23:49 <potty> not sure if she made it through this week
14:23:50 <cwickert> gnokii, potty: what do we consider a 'closed channel' in this context? Is mail ok?
14:24:04 <potty> cwickert: i think mail is the best option
14:24:35 <gnokii> cwickert: I think both have to talk about what they expect from each other, so mail would be endless long then and for my side sorry tatica isnt objective
14:25:21 <cwickert> gnokii: you mean balanced, not objective
14:25:26 <tatica> moin
14:25:30 <cwickert> hi tatica, thanks for coming
14:25:39 <tatica> np, thx for the heads up
14:25:53 <cwickert> we are just discussing #389
14:26:11 <potty> hi tatica :)
14:26:16 <tatica> oi potty :)
14:26:25 <tatica> please continue, don't let me interrupt
14:26:36 <cwickert> tatica: we'd like to close the ticket because we feel the more we talk about it, the more damage will be done.
14:27:07 <cwickert> you say Amita apologized, but it seems kushal wants a public apology
14:27:09 <tatica> cwickert, I thought the ticket was already closed
14:27:13 <giannisk> .fas giannisk
14:27:13 <zodbot> giannisk: giannisk 'Giannis Konstantinidis' <giannis@konstantinidis.cc>
14:27:18 <tatica> ,hello tatica
14:27:43 <tatica> .hello tatica
14:27:43 * giannisk waves at everyone
14:27:44 <zodbot> tatica: tatica 'Maria Gracia Leandro Lombardo' <tatadbb@gmail.com>
14:28:29 <potty> welcome giannisk
14:28:42 <tatica> cwickert, I saw Amita apologize twice on the ticket, isn't that a public ticket?
14:29:35 <cwickert> tatica: I think kushal expects something like a 'mea culpa' mail to ambassadors list or so. I think this would make things worse
14:29:50 <potty> ping kushal
14:30:14 <potty> kushal: let's keep thing simple. What is your expectation with "public apologize"?
14:30:39 <giannisk> Seriously, are we still talking about this? :)
14:30:42 <gnokii> well the problem might be that an excuse with words like ïf i have insulted somebody....¨"is for some ppl meaningless
14:30:54 <giannisk> Let's move on, please
14:31:19 <giannisk> She apologized, case resolved.
14:31:45 <cwickert> giannisk: the case is only resolved if both sides agree
14:32:02 <cwickert> and I don't think kushal is really happy, is he?
14:32:05 <potty> giannisk: i agree with cwickert. One sided agreement is not an agreement.
14:32:22 <kushal> potty, pong
14:32:24 <tuanta> +1 cwickert
14:32:27 <giannisk> cwickert: So, what else does the other party expect from amsharma?
14:32:47 <tatica> none of the sides are happy, and none of the sides will be, this is about closing an uncomfortable moment
14:33:11 <potty> Hi kushal. When you mean "public apologize", which specific channel you are talking about?
14:33:26 <kushal> potty, just saying sorry for saying wrong things (which are not true) about kushal should be enough.
14:33:29 <cwickert> giannisk: As I said, I think kushal wants a public apology. Either way, it's on us to find out, so we need to talk to him
14:33:38 <kushal> potty, in that same ticket will do.
14:33:45 <cwickert> ok, cool
14:33:47 <giannisk> cwickert: He had his public apology, twice :)
14:33:47 <cwickert> thanks kushal
14:33:50 <cwickert> case closed
14:33:52 <potty> Good. Thank you very much kushal
14:34:12 <potty> #chair cwickert giannisk tuanta gnokii
14:34:12 <zodbot> Current chairs: cwickert giannisk gnokii potty tuanta
14:34:25 <kushal> giannisk, there was nothing about trying to destroy my name.
14:34:43 <cwickert> kushal: can we close the ticket or not?
14:34:54 <cwickert> if not, what else do you want us to do?
14:34:55 <kushal> cwickert, I need that statement on the ticket.
14:35:04 <giannisk> kushal: honestly, I doubt anyone tried to destroy your name :) it depends on how you perceive things
14:35:25 <giannisk> cwickert: ticket has already been closed, for the record
14:35:37 <kushal> giannisk, every one on that channel thought I said those things, that is same of destroying my name.
14:35:40 <kushal> I never lied.
14:36:23 <tatica> kushal, would be enough a sorry for missunderstand thing?
14:36:32 <giannisk> amsharma on comment #40: "I did not mean to rude or hurt anyone. Please excuse me if that is the case here or on IRC or anywhere else."
14:36:46 <kushal> tatica, there was no misunderstanding.
14:36:48 <tatica> for me, that's an apology to he honest...
14:37:06 <kushal> If FAmSCo says so.
14:37:08 <potty> tatica: would be an issue if amsharma write down the specific words: "I am sorry for saying wrong things (which are not true) about kushal"
14:37:08 <kushal> Close the ticket.
14:37:23 <tatica> I think I got in the middle of a personal rivalry
14:37:38 <kushal> tatica, now that is not what I expect from you.
14:37:41 <tatica> Amita, you're reading, is that something you're comfortable with or not?
14:37:41 <cwickert> tatica: that's the job of the mediator ;)
14:38:00 <kushal> For record I have already nominated sankarshan_away  for Fedora Ambassador mentor.
14:38:03 <giannisk> I will be honest with you and say that this is becoming a drama. :) She apologized, let's move on.
14:38:14 <kushal> giannisk, yup, as I said.
14:38:22 <kushal> cwickert, close the ticket.
14:38:25 <tatica> kushal, be in my shoes, I try to solve things but nothing seems enough. I have a bit of frustration as well, even if I try to be as calm as possible
14:38:26 <cwickert> tatica, kushal, Amita: I think the three of you should work this out in private and not in public
14:38:33 <tatica> cwickert, same
14:38:50 <kushal> tatica, cwickert just move on.
14:38:52 <tatica> is that ok with kushal and Amita ?
14:38:52 * cwickert feels sorry for bringing this up again
14:39:39 <potty> cwickert: It was necessary. We are humans at the very end and we have to be able to solve this kind of issues.
14:40:25 <cwickert> potty: yes, but I doubt this meeting is the right place to discuss this. I just wanted to make sure both sides are fine. Everything else should be handled in private communication.
14:40:36 <cwickert> kushal: I'll get back to you by mail later, ok?
14:40:42 <kushal> cwickert, okay, thanks.
14:40:45 <giannisk> cwickert++
14:40:47 <potty> let's move on the meeting
14:41:59 <potty> famsco: Let's move te topic to FOSCo transition.
14:42:09 <potty> #topic Proposal: consider tranforming FAmSCo into "FOSCo" — Fedora Outreach Steering Committee
14:42:17 <potty> .famsco 373
14:42:17 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/373
14:42:33 <potty> Do we have any updates here?
14:43:02 <giannisk> So basically, during the "Meet your FAmSCo!" session at Flock, we considered starting with a minimum FOSCo
14:43:14 <giannisk> Which would be consisted of ambassadors + marketing + design + commops
14:44:18 <cwickert> giannisk: I am just writing a mail to FAMSCo list
14:44:22 <cwickert> and calling for a vote
14:44:28 <giannisk> cwickert: awesome
14:44:29 <cwickert> on this particular question
14:45:30 <potty> ok
14:46:47 <potty> Anything else here?
14:47:12 <giannisk> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/373#comment:35
14:47:32 <giannisk> Nothing specific, apart those things that I have written on the ticket.
14:48:12 <giannisk> I just believe that we have to be agile, if we really want FOSCo to happen anytime soon.
14:48:15 <cwickert> I just sent the mail
14:48:21 <cwickert> and will update the ticket now
14:48:24 <giannisk> That is, start with a bare minimum and expand later on.
14:48:24 <potty> giannisk: totally agree
14:48:34 <potty> giannisk: like an os?
14:48:53 <gnokii> more agile in thinking on consequences
14:49:21 <giannisk> potty: haha, like software development, sure
14:49:30 <potty> giannisk: ;)
14:49:48 <giannisk> gnokii: I don't see any severe consequences; and if any "issues" occur, we can fix them quite easily
14:50:17 <gnokii> I can give you an answer to it, but you would cry then
14:50:54 <giannisk> gnokii: Go on :)
14:52:05 <cwickert> all: please cast your votes in the ticket now
14:52:31 <cwickert> s/all/giannisk, tuanta, potty, gnokii
14:52:42 <potty> I'm on it right now
14:53:03 <cwickert> potty: you might want to reload, I just posted. just simple +1, 0 or -1
14:53:43 <potty> yup
14:53:45 <potty> thanks
14:53:48 * potty voted
14:53:53 <tuanta> I am trying to open the ticket. My internet connectivity is not good now.
14:54:00 * giannisk as well
14:54:34 <potty> cwickert++
14:54:34 <zodbot> potty: Karma for cwickert changed to 8 (for the f24 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:54:38 <potty> giannisk++
14:54:43 <gnokii> yeah, we might have the same problemm
14:55:14 <potty> cwickert: remember to vote (:
14:55:59 <cwickert> gnokii, tuanta: you still have a week. I think it should be possible to find a place with working internet connection within this period. If not, there is not much FAmSCo can do for you, we cannot wait forever, otherwise we don't get anything done.
14:56:29 <tuanta> A week is ok for me :)
14:57:54 <potty> Ok. Let's move on.
14:58:07 <potty> Do anyone got extra opinions on this topic?
14:58:17 <potty> If not I will change to the final topic
14:58:53 <cwickert> let's move on
14:59:16 <potty> #topic Reorganizing Ambassador Mentoring
14:59:21 <potty> .famsco 359
14:59:21 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/359
14:59:48 <potty> tatica: you still around?
14:59:54 <tatica> yup
15:00:06 <potty> may you explain a bit what you posted on the ticket?
15:00:15 <tatica> sure
15:01:03 <tatica> so jflory7 had a great idea with the badges missions (which were already at a proposal mizmo had earlier). It won't be about the full mentoring process, but there are some basic things everyone need to do prior being awarded as a mentor
15:01:45 <tatica> I have been in talks with mizmo a lot about this general idea, and right now as we speak I'm building a larger proposal for the "team badges missions" she was already working on, using the existing badges platform
15:02:26 <tatica> I just want to be clear that this is merely for the basic mentoring tasks, not removing the human component. It's important to have the mentoring persona there to advice when things are in the good or bad way
15:02:50 <tatica> but with a mission complexion (which can be several missions depending on the mentee skills) will be easier to follow progress
15:03:15 <tatica> I'm up for any question/discussion
15:03:33 <tatica> again, it's a merely proposal. may go or not
15:03:46 <potty> thank you, tatica
15:03:53 <tatica> np
15:03:55 * giannisk will be away from keyboard for a while
15:04:02 <potty> toughts on this, cwickert gnokii tuanta giannisk ?
15:04:27 <gnokii> couldnt follow what it is about
15:04:36 <potty> gnokii: mentoring process
15:04:47 <cwickert> tatica: badges for which steps exactly?
15:04:50 <gnokii> ^^
15:05:05 <tatica> here's what mizmo had drawn previously https://pagure.io/fedora-hubs/issue/17#comment-2500
15:05:39 * mailga is in his vacation period.....
15:05:59 <mizmo> cwickert, it'd be flexible depending on each teams needs, but we can create badges based on an individual teams needs.
15:06:13 <tatica> mizmo, thx :)
15:06:22 <mizmo> eg for design team we might require they create a badge design and fill a design ticket, create a wiki profile, submit their portfolio, create a fas acct, etc
15:06:29 <mizmo> so we'd set up a 'join the design team mission'
15:06:33 <mizmo> with badges for each of those tasks
15:06:40 <mizmo> some can be automated - you create a fas acct, you get that badge
15:06:51 <potty> tatica, mizmo: so the idea is to create a flow of steps for the mentors and create badges for each step completed?
15:06:57 <tatica> cwickert, for ambasadors we could use the classroom badges, so they interact with ther region or city
15:06:58 <mizmo> some should be more human eg, your mentor needs to award you the badge
15:07:17 <tatica> potty, yes
15:07:54 <tatica> we ask ambassadors to spread fedora, but besides the posts, there are few ways to record the data
15:08:04 <tatica> their posts are already loged into the planet, and that can be count
15:08:29 <tatica> technically, a badge for everything can be created
15:08:45 <cwickert> mizmo, tatica: I don't think the mentors will like this idea. The main purpose of the mentoring is to find out if people are really *convinced* of Fedora and are willing to put in efford into the ambassadors. With gamification, I'm afraid they will collect badges like Pokemons.
15:09:17 <mizmo> cwickert, the point of the badges isnt to play a game though, it's to make the steps to get something accomplished clear
15:09:25 <tatica> cwickert, as I said, it's merely an idea.
15:09:25 <mizmo> cwickert, and to track what's going on better
15:09:34 <gnokii> well to be honest
15:09:51 <gnokii> for the most of the things is a badge already
15:09:58 <mizmo> basically to make it easier to join fedora no matter the team - provide a consistent interface for understanding what you need to do to get started
15:10:09 <potty> cwickert: i don't see an issue to apply some gamification to Fedora
15:10:34 <potty> i clarify: i know this is no game, but having that kind motivation is good
15:10:48 <cwickert> mizmo: I fully agree we need to track progress better, that's exactly the purpose of the FAMA trac instance. But we don't want to give people false incentives, we want them to apply for ambassadorship because they *want* it
15:11:04 <mailga> cwickert: it's a way for tracking the whole process, of course mentors have the final word and the *human* components still remain.
15:11:30 <mizmo> cwickert, oh of course. but thats why you need the human component of it. i would imagine for mentorship type roles like ambassadors, the mentor would be awarding many of the badges, so if the mentor feels the mentees heart is not in it, they have discretion not to award
15:11:52 <gnokii> its useless to talk about it anyway because, if I say i dont want a badges account you cant see it
15:12:13 <cwickert> mizmo: so it's just one badge once the mentoring is completed?
15:12:26 <mizmo> gnokii, even if someone didn't have / want a badges account, they could use the list of badges in the mission as a list of work items to work towards
15:12:27 <cwickert> I thought it was a series of badges throughout the mentoring process
15:12:43 <mizmo> cwickert, it can be as granular or as coarse as you guys want.
15:12:43 <tatica> cwickert, either way you will gain those badges with the process as well
15:12:44 <potty> cwickert: no. I understood only one badge for the whole mentoring process.
15:12:50 <tatica> is just organize the process
15:13:00 <mailga> gnokii: following your way of thinking there are no way to change anything. IMO.
15:13:01 * tuanta has to leave now
15:13:02 <potty> cwickert: but to have the steps on a Hub page
15:13:05 <mizmo> cwickert, from the fedora hubs / badges side we can leave that up to individual teams, but i'd imagine it'd work better with a series of badges
15:13:09 <tatica> to be an ambassador, you have to have a fas account, you need to update your info, you will have to attend events, etc etc
15:13:19 <potty> and give follow-up using automatic tools
15:13:37 * giannisk is back
15:13:37 <tatica> this will be the ultimate goal https://badges.fedoraproject.org/badge/ambassador
15:13:37 <cwickert> If it is just a single badge, I don't see any benefit over trac
15:13:46 * giannisk is reading through the logs
15:13:47 <mizmo> cwickert, create a fas account, get assigned a mentor, have an initial interview / discussion with mentor, help mentor / some other ambassador hold an event, final approval from mentor <= these could all be separate badges
15:14:14 <tatica> did you took a look to mizmo design?
15:14:30 <potty> tatica: share the link again please
15:14:45 <cwickert> tatica: I'm sorry, I didn't
15:14:50 <tatica> check please the design team mission section https://pagure.io/fedora-hubs/issue/17#comment-2500
15:14:55 <mizmo> i think it might help if i make a blog post describing the design
15:15:00 <giannisk> By taking a very brief look, i think this is over-engineered
15:15:03 <cwickert> except fromo what I see in that pagure ticket
15:15:05 <tatica> it's like a step by step guide, instead using words, you're using badges
15:15:09 <cwickert> giannisk++
15:15:14 <tatica> mizmo, yeah, I'm already working on it
15:15:37 <mizmo> giannisk, why do you think it's over-engineered?
15:15:45 <cwickert> at the moment we are using trac. Every step is a milestone in a ticket
15:15:53 <tatica> as I said on the ticket, this requires mockups to make it more readable, it's a abstract idea that needs organization
15:15:57 <potty> i think it is a good idea.
15:16:01 <cwickert> if we were to replace milestones with badges, we have to write a whole lot of code
15:16:01 <mizmo> cwickert, trac is getting shut down over the next year
15:16:08 <giannisk> Because the current process works perfectly and this thing with the budges seems over complicated.
15:16:26 <mizmo> giannisk, how is it over complicated?
15:16:32 <gnokii> perfectly so why we discussing then?
15:16:32 <tatica> trac is going out anyway
15:16:35 <mizmo> giannisk, are you going to be able to use the same process when you migrate to pagure?
15:16:55 <cwickert> mizmo: as long as pagure only has 10% of the features of trac and does not support any kind of ACLs, I don't see trac going away any time soon
15:17:05 <mizmo> giannisk, the thing is a lot of other fedora teams are going to move to this badges model for helping incoming newbies, so it would be nice for ambassadors to follow the same model so across teams we're consistent
15:17:17 <tatica> may I ask something?
15:17:32 <tatica> can I please have some more days to finish my mockups? and we can discuss this next week?
15:17:44 <mizmo> but it really helps because it can help make all the little steps obvious and help motivate newbies to keep going
15:17:45 <tatica> the idea barely came out, I'm not even done with the mockups nor explaining
15:17:49 <mizmo> tatica ^^ ++++
15:17:51 <cwickert> I don't think we need to delay the idea
15:17:57 <cwickert> erm, discussion
15:18:19 <mizmo> the big win you're going to get is that it's going to be a much nicer interface / easier to understand than trac could ever be
15:18:31 <cwickert> while I appreciate the input from the design team, I don't see any reason for us to not discuss improvements in the mentoring process
15:19:03 <cwickert> mizmo: cleaner interface with less features, as always ;)
15:19:13 <mizmo> cwickert, how would it have less features?
15:19:47 <mizmo> whatever you need can be plugged into it
15:19:54 <mizmo> eg badges can easily be driven by tickets
15:19:59 <cwickert> mizmo: did you look at trac and all it's plugins throughout what groups use on fedorahosted? I just named a killer feauture: ACLs
15:20:12 <mizmo> in design team we have it hooked up with our trac so that if you close a design team ticket it gives you a point, you collect so many and a badge is automatically awarded
15:20:38 <cwickert> ok, but to automatically award badges for the mentoring steps, we have to write a lot of code
15:20:43 <mizmo> so there isn't necessarily a reason you have to stop using trac, the badges could be another layer to make the various aspects you're using in trac more apparent to newcomers
15:20:47 <cwickert> and that's why giannisk called it over-engieered
15:20:55 <mizmo> cwickert, the badges team writes that
15:20:57 <mizmo> not you
15:20:57 <gnokii> cwickert for which one?
15:21:03 <gnokii> fas account exists
15:21:10 <gnokii> making wiki page exists
15:21:22 <gnokii> a lot of these badges exist already
15:21:25 <cwickert> mizmo: you write the code that looks up stuff in fedmsg?
15:21:34 <mizmo> i'm just going to say this and move on - giannisk, fedora hubs and this design has been something my team has been working on for months, it's really not fair to be so dismissive of all of the work of so many people by just calling it over engineered without fully understanding it
15:21:35 <mizmo> moving on
15:21:37 <cwickert> gnokii: mailing list does not
15:21:46 <mizmo> cwickert, yes there's a whole format for the badges to pick up the messages
15:21:55 <gnokii> cwickert: look at the badges trac, its already in work
15:21:55 <mizmo> cwickert, it's not really code iirc it's yaml
15:22:29 * mailga thinks that Ambassadors are not living in a world apart (even if mentors seem yes). An integration with the rest of Project is needed.
15:22:48 <tatica> I feel that this is like saying a chicken isn't worthy before it has even hatch the egg
15:22:50 <cwickert> mizmo: I am not rejecting your idea, I do see the positive aspects. But I'm afraid it doesn't offer any benefit for the stakeholders, and that's the mentors first of all
15:23:13 <cwickert> mizmo: if mentors have to use another system in addition to trac to grant badges, it's more work for them
15:23:22 <mizmo> cwickert, i think it offers a lot of benefits for the mentors. let me explain how we anticipate it providing benefits to the folks on the design team who serve as (informal) mentors -
15:24:09 <mizmo> cwickert, it will help make the mentees better able to help themselves / self-service their path to becoming a member, because once a badge is earned, the system will suggest the next badge to them in the series so they know what they need to work on next
15:24:47 <cwickert> mizmo: at the moment we have a step by step wizard for this in the wiki
15:25:00 <mizmo> cwickert, it also creates a natural check in point with the mentor - we don't always like automated badge awarding either, because we like the designer to go through a critique with their mentor and have some back and forth. having the mentor award the badge when that is over with sort of helps as the impetus to set up that check point / critique / meeting
15:25:37 <mizmo> cwickert, a major complaint we get every time we interview new users or try to on board new users (i dont know if you guys find this too) is that the wiki is hard to use, it's hard to find information on it, it's hrd to understand how current / active the info is
15:25:43 <cwickert> somebody who is not willing/able to read 5 wiki pages with step-by-step instructions should IHMO not be an ambassador. Sorry if this sounds elitist, but that's the mentor's perception of the ambassadors group.
15:25:59 <giannisk> mizmo: I did not "dismiss" your work, nor did I say that I do not value what your efforts. However, I feel that we (the ambassadors) have other priorities for now.
15:26:07 <mizmo> part of the role of hubs is hopefully to replace the team join function of the wiki because from team to team its inconsistent - there are 'how to join ' pages with steps and pointers set up to teams that haven't existed in fedora for years or that never existed
15:26:17 <potty> well
15:26:21 <mizmo> giannisk, flatly stating 'overengineered' without understanding is a dismissal
15:26:32 <giannisk> mizmo: you say that
15:26:44 <mizmo> giannisk, this is not productive, we can take this out of channel if you want
15:26:44 <potty> let's not over-discuss this topic
15:27:12 <mizmo> cwickert, we dont want to lower the bar so much that folks who are lazy get in - not at all
15:27:14 <giannisk> mizmo: we have nothing to take out of this channel, i'm not up for a "fight" :)
15:27:24 <tatica> I just ask time to develop my idea please
15:27:37 <mizmo> cwickert, but we do want a consistent experience across teams for joining, and newbies to have some assurance that the process they're following / the pages they are reading are actually still valid
15:27:51 <potty> I thought it was positive to bring the design input to merge it (if possible) with what we have to do (reorganize mentoring process)
15:28:02 <tatica> potty, yeah
15:28:08 <potty> i'm sorry
15:29:11 <cwickert> mizmo: Please try to see it from the other perspective: I think the ambassadors have the best designed join process of all teams in Fedora: there is a step-by-step guide in the wiki, there is a mentoring process, there is FAMA, there are statistics. I'm not saying this is perfect, but I'm afraid the way you talk about it will be considered as dismissal by many mentors, too.
15:29:36 <mizmo> cwickert, absolutely, and we recognized that when we thought about designing this system which is why the ambassadors process inspired it a lot
15:30:30 <cwickert> ok, I think we should separate the process from the design questions
15:30:36 <mizmo> cwickert, what the hope is, is basically to make the process a standard across fedora teams, but not every team has as great documentation as your team and notevery team that has the documetnation keeps it updated
15:30:50 * giannisk believes we are already running late.
15:30:55 <cwickert> yes we are
15:31:13 <mizmo> i would say the #1 complaint from people we talked to who were newbies or gave up trying to become a contributor is that the info they found was out of date or wasn't clear if it was still current (or they thought it was and wasted time)
15:31:22 <mizmo> and thats the main problem relying on wiki for these kinds of processes
15:31:30 <giannisk> You have an idea, you have put effort on it, we appreciate that. Now, what I would like to say is, please come up with a concrete proposal and we would be more than happy to discuss about it.
15:31:39 * tatica just want to keep working in her idea, present it to all mentors and just see where it goes
15:31:40 <giannisk> But I don't think that now is the right time.
15:31:41 <mizmo> great, tatica will be working on that
15:31:49 <mizmo> and i will provide her support
15:32:07 * potty have to leave the meeting in 5 minutes...
15:32:12 <tatica> giannisk, I said that 30min ago, when I asked for a week to present a formal idea
15:32:31 <giannisk> tatica: I might have missed that line, sorry.
15:32:34 <cwickert> mizmo: how is the wiki a problem? It allows all groups to adjust the process for their needs without having to talk to design, infra or commops first. I think this flexibility is a plus.
15:33:11 <mizmo> cwickert, it's a problem because while you guys keep yours updated id say at least 50% of other teams do not, so for newcomers, they can't trust ANY of the wiki pages
15:33:32 <tatica> I will go back to my cave and work on my stuff
15:33:35 <mizmo> cwickert, which means more high touch interaction, asking around, trying to figure out if its valid or not - it's a lot of leg work and newbies already have a lot on their plate. a lot just opt out
15:33:40 <cwickert> mizmo: that is a social problem that cannot be addressed with a technical solution
15:33:44 <tatica> this discussion is about something isn't even a full proposal
15:34:00 <mizmo> cwickert, it's not a social problem. people don't update the wiki because it's not a system that drives people to check up on it regularly
15:34:13 <mizmo> cwickert, its not a 'living' kind of document
15:34:32 <cwickert> mizmo: which again is a social problem, but let's not discuss this further
15:34:42 <mizmo> cwickert, we think that pairing the sign up process with something intended to be checked regularly like hubs wuld help solve it
15:34:43 <giannisk> cwickert: +1
15:34:53 <cwickert> all: let's use https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/359 for comments about the mentoring process itself, not about the design. tatica, mizmo, and gnokii will work on the badges/hubs approach and we will revisit their proposal once we have something look at.
15:34:56 <mizmo> cwickert, it is technical in that it's deeply mired in user interaction with different types of software
15:35:03 <gnokii> hu
15:35:06 <mizmo> thank you
15:35:25 <tatica> cwickert, the proposal is already separated, I just linked the ticket in case someone wanted to follow up
15:35:35 <tatica> I don't see any relation there
15:35:53 <cwickert> tatica: so where is that proposal?
15:36:29 <tatica> cwickert, just a sec
15:36:45 <cwickert> feel free to post the link to the trac ticket
15:36:48 <tatica> cwickert, http://imgur.com/a/6HhHH
15:36:49 <tatica> here
15:36:58 <tatica> because as I said... Nobody has let me finish it
15:37:17 <tatica> so please... for the 100 time... let me at least finish my mockups instead arguing for something isn't even done yet
15:37:25 <tatica> you're all arguing for an idea
15:37:30 <tatica> this is not even about implementation yet
15:37:35 <cwickert> tatica: right
15:37:44 <tatica> as a mentor, as an ambassador, as a fedora contributor
15:37:58 <tatica> please stop arguing and making contributors lose the impulse and willingness to help
15:38:00 <tatica> please
15:39:10 <giannisk> Alrighty. This needs time. You have it. Let's move on. :)
15:39:29 <tatica> thank you
15:39:35 <potty> This was the latest topic.
15:39:41 <potty> Do anyone have extra topics?
15:39:45 <potty> #topic Open Floor
15:39:47 <cwickert> tatica: we are not arguing your mock-ups, we are just not sure it makes sense to implement it. for me, this would be the first step before I start working. I appreciate your work, but please don't be disappointed if (some of) the mentors don't like it. It's not that they don't like your work, they don't like the approach
15:40:09 <tatica> cwickert, I have high tolerance to negatives already
15:40:20 <tatica> what I have no tolerance is to arguing and not listening
15:40:53 <tatica> cwickert, just imagine this wasn't me, but a candidate for a team
15:42:15 <tatica> anyway, will continue working. tick tock, time is running
15:42:37 <potty> I will close the meeting in 3 minutes...
15:43:07 <cwickert> tatica: If your comment implies you think it is a personal problem, let me assure you it is not. I appreciate your work. But if I am to think of you as candidate for a team, I would expect this candidate to work with the team and do requirements gathering first. Makes sense?
15:43:26 <tatica> cwickert, not at all
15:43:26 * mailga says that since the mentorship reorganisation is a FAmSCo task, we cannot ever be careful to hurt people's feelings.
15:43:37 <tatica> cwickert, but a new contributor might get scared with a thread like this
15:44:41 <mizmo> you're making the assumption we didn't do requirements gathering
15:44:51 <mizmo> we've talked to representatives from all teams from the start including ambassadors
15:45:00 <tatica> cwickert, and do not worry, at any point I thought this was personal :)
15:45:26 <tatica> I just think everyone is hurry into something that is merely in my head (and now mizmo since I stalked her for 2 days with this)
15:45:28 <cwickert> mizmo: who did you talk to?
15:45:40 <mizmo> cwickert, im looking up the notes, i know tatica was there
15:45:46 <tatica> yup
15:45:56 <mizmo> btw i did do a blog post about the idea a while back altho there are some updates - tatica needs to make some of the mockups for the mentor view
15:45:57 <mizmo> http://blog.linuxgrrl.com/2016/04/26/plan-to-level-up-contributors-with-fedora-hubs/
15:46:04 <tatica> cwickert, my goal was to first talk to hubs and badges to see if the idea was technically viable
15:46:41 <mizmo> cwickert, this was the initial meeting http://blog.linuxgrrl.com/2015/03/25/summary-of-enabling-new-contributors-brainstorm-session/
15:46:56 <tatica> if the idea was too crazy to develop, I would have drop out
15:47:24 <mizmo> i believe tatica was our ambassadors representative and she was chosen both for that and to represent LATAM
15:47:34 <mizmo> but we've had other discussions and meetings along the way
15:47:38 <mizmo> that one was last year
15:48:35 <tatica> yeah, I couldn't follow up those meetings due... everyone knows why
15:48:53 <tatica> I came back home I think in late april
15:48:57 <cwickert> mizmo: there is always the danger that the representative doesn't represent the group. I don't think there was any discussion within the mentors or FAMSCo groups.
15:49:10 <cwickert> anyway, this is no longer important for this meeting
15:49:12 <mizmo> cwickert, there was, and there was an open call for volunteers (linked to from that post)
15:49:17 <cwickert> #endmeeting