11:59:32 <hhorak> #startmeeting Env and Stacks (2015-06-04)
11:59:32 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jun  4 11:59:32 2015 UTC.  The chair is hhorak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
11:59:32 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
11:59:32 <hhorak> #meetingname env-and-stacks
11:59:32 <hhorak> #chair bkabrda hhorak juhp ncoghlan vpavlin sicampbell walters ttomecek phracek
11:59:32 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'env-and-stacks'
11:59:32 <zodbot> Current chairs: bkabrda hhorak juhp ncoghlan phracek sicampbell ttomecek vpavlin walters
11:59:37 <hhorak> #topic greetings
11:59:47 <bkabrda> hi
12:00:14 <phracek> hi, we have again meeting:)
12:01:03 <juhp_> hi
12:01:24 <vpavlin> Good Afternoon
12:01:24 * juhp_ managed to find the room this time :)
12:02:10 <hhorak> hi all
12:02:29 <hhorak> #topic Elections and charter enhances
12:03:06 <hhorak> as you've probably encountered, fesco elections were already proposed, so we should think about elections for env & stacks again..
12:03:29 * vpavlin says: yay
12:03:59 <phracek> upsss. It seems that it is end of my time:) I did not do nothing ;)
12:04:31 <phracek> s/nothing/anything/g
12:07:10 <hhorak> phracek: I don't think so, the initial members' turn this time (those who were not elected the last time)
12:07:28 <vpavlin> ok, bye..
12:07:40 <juhp_> lol
12:07:42 <hhorak> vpavlin: we need new members first :)
12:07:51 <hhorak> vpavlin: so no such hurry :)
12:08:22 <phracek> vpavlin: We need a container responsible guy in E&S.
12:08:51 <bkabrda> phracek: isn't that vpavlin? :)
12:09:11 <hhorak> speaking about that and actually couldn't remember when we needed to have quorum because of voting the last time, I kind of think about membership just to be just an impulse to join meetings..
12:09:23 <phracek> bkabrda: Yeah, byt he wants to leave. I hope that he is joking:)
12:09:31 <hhorak> vpavlin: bkabrda: both of you :)
12:09:35 <phracek> s/byt/but/g
12:09:42 <bkabrda> hhorak: and ttomecek as well
12:09:49 <hhorak> bkabrda: right!
12:09:57 <ncoghlan> and me :)
12:10:21 <bkabrda> right, so basically we're bunch of docker people :D
12:10:28 * vpavlin nods..
12:10:53 * ncoghlan is more an Ansible person
12:10:55 <hhorak> so, my point was whether not to change the charter to change the group to "any number of volunteers" and in case we have a disagreement in voting -- then to deffer to fesco/council
12:10:55 <langdon> .hello langdon
12:10:56 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@fishjump.com>
12:11:21 <ncoghlan> hhorak: I think it's worth having the 9 nominated members
12:11:54 <ncoghlan> even if its just a way of recording that we've committed to showing up
12:12:12 <ncoghlan> plus I'm hoping we'll have some more concrete proposals this cycle :)
12:12:41 <ncoghlan> and I want to share the blame^^^^^credit before taking them to fedora-devel :)
12:14:11 <hhorak> ncoghlan: yeah, membership does make sense, but I'm not sure if we need to hold the voting every release.. or need to have exactly 9 members.. maybe changing just the election process to make it asynchronous and accept new members during the time..? and not bother about exact count?
12:14:53 <hhorak> well, we can do the standard way again and see what demand there is for being a member (I'm afraid not big)
12:15:05 <hhorak> and consider changing anything later..
12:15:10 <ncoghlan> yeah
12:15:14 <juhp_> hmm there is that
12:15:40 <vpavlin> I am definitely for unbinding elections from the fesco
12:15:46 <juhp_> yeah maybe have an election and then revisit?
12:16:07 <juhp_> seems a bit late to change now perhaps?
12:16:38 <vpavlin> juhp_: Sure, probably a first thing we should vote about after elections;)
12:16:44 <juhp_> sure
12:18:23 <ncoghlan> yeah, I think vote on the current 5 openings this election, and then consider tweaking next time
12:18:37 <bkabrda> +1
12:18:56 <hhorak> +1 sounds fine
12:19:21 <vpavlin> hhorak: So what now? You'll send out an email to MLs about free seats?
12:19:56 <hhorak> vpavlin: I'll talk to jkurik, who seems to maintain the elections now..
12:20:00 <hhorak> hopefully all the 5 members will nominate again!!
12:20:23 <ncoghlan> I certainly intend to :)
12:20:49 <juhp_> ok
12:20:51 <hhorak> I think it gives us better visibility to align with fesco this time again, doesn't it?
12:21:35 <hhorak> #action hhorak to talk to jkurik about WG elections
12:21:57 <hhorak> #info fesco elections nomination is scheduled to June 08-14
12:22:19 <langdon> & council
12:22:43 <juhp_> hhorak, yes
12:23:25 * jkurik is expecting hhorak
12:24:18 <langdon> Not to completely sidebar, but, it might be worth having an e&s level set meeting with, not only fesco , but base as well..  Might be a good time for it
12:24:32 <hhorak> jkurik: nice, so the plan seems fine from you PoV?
12:24:39 <langdon> Discussion came up in the base meeting the other day
12:25:28 <jkurik> hhorak: to discuss the Elections policy after this Elections ?
12:25:59 <juhp_> langdon, regular meeting?
12:26:11 <hhorak> jkurik: I though more about aligning our elections with fesclo/council elections.. just to join them :)
12:26:36 <juhp_> langdon, I like the idea
12:26:59 <ncoghlan> langdon: makes sense to me - it became clear to me in writing that draft of the Aleph idea today that there's the lower levels are out of E&S's sphere of responsibility
12:27:16 <hhorak> langdon: I'm not sure I understand "level set meeting" -- just a to meet and talk together? or does it have some special meaning?
12:27:45 <ncoghlan> hhorak: "e&s level" "set meeting"
12:28:11 <juhp_> ncoghlan beat me to it
12:28:21 <hhorak> ncoghlan: this way it makes more sense :)
12:28:46 <langdon> Hhorak a meeting to make sure u all think the same thing about what each group is responsible for :)
12:29:09 <hhorak> ok, got it :)
12:29:15 * langdon didn't understand ncoghlan's clarification :)
12:29:16 <jkurik> hhorak: yes, I think we can join WG elections with FESCo/Council elections as well
12:30:00 * langdon also thought u meant "charter" when you said align with fesco :)
12:30:12 <jkurik> hhorak: however I will need some background
12:30:41 <jkurik> hhorak: if you can step by and explain me some details, it will be helpfull
12:31:51 <hhorak> jkurik: sure, will pay you a visit :)
12:32:19 <juhp_> ah level-setting meeting?
12:33:15 <juhp_> anyway I think having occasional cross-WG meeting sometimes would be useful/productive
12:33:45 <juhp_> though I already personally have alotofmeetings...
12:33:55 <langdon> Juhp_ +1
12:34:18 <hhorak> when finding a time for this whatever-it's-called meeting between groups, I think we should wait after elections, so we choose the time that fits the new members.. but it sounds like great idea generally..
12:34:42 <juhp_> even if its one per release cycle say
12:34:58 <juhp_> that's still a lot of meetings though WG x WG....
12:35:22 <ncoghlan> juhp_: I don't think it would need to the full cross-product of groups
12:35:24 <juhp_> though it could be quite fruitful I feel
12:35:33 <ncoghlan> juhp_: but each group with Base at least could be good
12:35:59 <ncoghlan> so there's at least one group in a position to spot overlaps
12:36:26 <juhp_> I think also with some of the edition WGs would be interesting - to hear more about what they want/need - but digressing probably :)
12:36:28 <hhorak> juhp_: I think it's worth trying it.. if it doesn't work, we'll think about another channel..
12:36:33 <juhp_> ncoghlan, yeah Base makes sense
12:36:43 <juhp_> hhorak, ok sure
12:37:17 <langdon> Perhaps with a member of fesco present?
12:37:23 <juhp_> yes
12:37:27 <langdon> And/or council?
12:37:40 <juhp_> why not
12:38:01 <hhorak> sounds fine
12:39:18 <hhorak> anybody able to take responsibility to set up when is good and send the other group(s)? (that's the only thing I came to that is needed to be done to make it happen(
12:42:31 * juhp_ thinks someone in a Westerly timezone might be better... kind of doubts his timezone will work... but I can do it if noone else volunteers i guess
12:43:22 <juhp_> start with Base WG ?
12:44:04 <hhorak> yeah, probably the best shot
12:44:21 <juhp_> okay let me take it then
12:44:27 <hhorak> juhp_: thanks
12:44:42 <juhp_> might increase my chances of re-election ;o)
12:44:49 <juhp_> np
12:45:11 <hhorak> oh, the time goes quickly....
12:45:11 <hhorak> #topic Council Engineering update
12:47:05 <hhorak> two things here -- we need to gather some content + a volunteer that would do the presentation
12:48:31 <phracek> hhorak: Just a question. What content should be in the presentation?
12:48:42 <ncoghlan> For user level package management, I see two possible additions (one F23, one F24)
12:49:54 <hhorak> phracek: basically what we plan to focus in next year
12:50:07 <ncoghlan> For F23: provide the nix package manager for language independent user level package management (using the upstream Nix repos, as we do with language specific tools).
12:50:15 <phracek> hhorak: I see
12:50:32 <hhorak> there were already some ideas the last meeting, but we should come up with more..
12:50:36 <ncoghlan> For F24: actually the mammoth email I sent today into a real proposal
12:50:42 <ncoghlan> *actually turn the...
12:50:58 <hhorak> ncoghlan: thanks, that seems like quite challenging task :)
12:51:15 <ncoghlan> yeah
12:51:21 <hhorak> #link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/env-and-stacks/2015-May/000786.html
12:52:09 * bkabrda has to run, since he has another meeting in 5. see you guys
12:52:16 <juhp_> ncoghlan, +1 for nix
12:52:31 <bkabrda> and btw +1 for nix
12:52:33 <hhorak> ncoghlan: +1 (why not to set high expectations :)
12:52:46 <phracek> hhorak: If it is not urgent case then I think I can make a proposal till end of this month. Is it ok?
12:53:00 <phracek> Of course I would be happy If anybode can help me.
12:53:09 <phracek> I can start communication via ML.
12:53:13 <hhorak> phracek: basically yes, we need to have some input for the meeting 7th July
12:53:17 <ncoghlan> hhorak: the Aleph proposal is the one that would need a *lot* of discussion with other WGs :)
12:53:39 <ncoghlan> hhorak: but I think it fits in well with langdon's Fedora Modularisation objective
12:55:07 <hhorak> ncoghlan: +1
12:55:33 <hhorak> thinking about where to track this -- the task list is almost the place (with links to more detailed description than just a subject)
12:55:33 <vpavlin> Sorry guys, I need to go - another meeting:-)
12:55:46 <juhp_> btw roughly when do you want to have the meeting with Base?
12:56:15 <juhp_> this month/ next month / post -election ?
12:56:48 <hhorak> juhp_: it makes me the best sense shortly after elections..
12:56:55 <juhp_> okay
12:57:13 <juhp_> when are they expected?
12:57:50 <juhp_> okay I may discuss details more on list - people may ask upfront about agenda etc
12:58:50 <hhorak> juhp_: the elections results are announced June 29
12:58:58 <juhp_> okay
12:59:15 <juhp_> then maybe the call should be after that?
12:59:28 <hhorak> juhp_: I think so..
12:59:28 <juhp_> call for the meeting I mean
12:59:32 <juhp_> okay
13:00:05 <juhp_> sorry to change the topic
13:01:43 <hhorak> no problem.. I think we've already lost enough members to call it the end anyway..
13:01:53 <hhorak> unless anybody has something special to tell..
13:02:05 <hhorak> meanwhile I'll do some better minutes..
13:02:19 <juhp_> ncoghlan, your proposal looks pretty interesting btw just wanted to add
13:02:25 <hhorak> #idea ncoghlan for F23: provide the nix package manager for language independent user level package management (using the upstream Nix repos, as we do with language specific tools).
13:02:48 * hhorak admits haven't read it O:-)
13:02:53 <hhorak> yet
13:03:15 <ncoghlan> hhorak: it's not clear enough in my own mind for me to make it shorter yet :)
13:03:41 <hhorak> ncoghlan: I see :)
13:05:14 <hhorak> #info Aleph proposal is the one that would need a *lot* of discussion with other WGs
13:05:43 <hhorak> #link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/env-and-stacks/2015-June/000796.html
13:06:25 <hhorak> well, we're over already, so will skip the rest of topics.. thanks for the discussion!
13:06:48 <ncoghlan> g'night folks!
13:06:50 <juhp_> thanks hhorak and all!
13:07:11 <phracek> thanks hhorak for leading.
13:07:30 <hhorak> #endmeeting