17:01:48 <herlo> #startmeeting FAmSCo weekly
17:01:48 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Jul 23 17:01:48 2012 UTC.  The chair is herlo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:01:48 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:02:04 <herlo> #chair aeperezt bckurera nb
17:02:04 <zodbot> Current chairs: aeperezt bckurera herlo nb
17:02:36 <herlo> #topic roll call
17:02:39 * herlo is here
17:02:53 <aeperezt> .fas aeperezt
17:02:55 <zodbot> aeperezt: aeperezt 'Alejandro Perez' <alejandro.perez.torres@gmail.com>
17:02:58 <bckurera> .fas bckurera
17:02:58 <zodbot> bckurera: bckurera 'Buddhika Kurera' <bckurera@gmail.com>
17:03:37 <herlo> Christoph Wickert sends regrets for this meeting
17:04:20 <bckurera> sounds like #info ?
17:05:15 <herlo> bckurera: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions
17:05:55 <bckurera> #info Meeting participants : aeperezt bckurera herlo nb
17:06:05 <bckurera> #info Christoph Wickert sends regrets for this meeting
17:06:18 <herlo> bckurera: ahh, I see what you mean.
17:06:34 <bckurera> done :)
17:08:05 <bckurera> shall we proceed ?
17:08:13 <herlo> sure
17:09:03 <scientes> .fas scientes
17:09:04 <zodbot> scientes: 'scientes' Not Found!
17:09:14 <scientes> not sure what that command is suppose to do
17:09:21 <herlo> scientes: please do that elsewhere
17:09:23 <aeperezt> sure
17:09:26 <herlo> we are in a meeting :)
17:09:33 <scientes> yes and I'm here for it
17:10:00 <herlo> awesome
17:10:15 <herlo> scientes: .fas is related to your fas name
17:11:05 <bckurera> ok the next is announcements >>
17:11:43 <herlo> bckurera: so you could do #topic Announeements?
17:11:57 <bckurera> herlo please lead the meeting
17:12:01 <herlo> but spell it correctly
17:12:05 * herlo doesn't want to run the meeting :)
17:14:29 * herlo also thinks that there are really only 3 folks here, nb hasn't responded to anything yet...
17:14:42 <bckurera> ok then who lead the meeting?
17:14:45 <herlo> probably good to get a quorum if we can before proceeding
17:15:01 <herlo> well, if cwickert isn't here, it should be sesivany iirc, but he's not here either.
17:15:38 <bckurera> yup the reason is with 3 members we cannot proceed for the daily business, tickets
17:15:45 <aeperezt> also daniebruno is not here
17:16:13 <herlo> aeperezt: indeed.
17:16:33 * herlo can't recall who the vice chair is, but at least 3 people failed to send regrets :/
17:17:08 <aeperezt> herlo danielbruno is vice chair
17:17:14 <herlo> aah, okay
17:17:16 <bckurera> then are we going to conclude since we dont have the quorum?
17:17:29 <aeperezt> jiri still traveling
17:17:36 <bckurera> Is there any general business we can take, other than voting ?
17:18:01 <bckurera> herlo how about the guideline ?
17:18:04 <scientes> I thought it was going to be next hour
17:18:28 <aeperezt> bckurera, on the tickets does not think there are no urgent matters
17:18:33 <herlo> bckurera: I do have that partly done
17:18:46 <bckurera> herlo can we get a link?
17:18:49 <aeperezt> sorry
17:19:16 <aeperezt> in the report there are not urgent matters https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/report/9
17:19:17 <herlo> bckurera: however, in talking with inode0, I'm apt to just say we should set aside one number as the limit and otherwise let the regions sort out their own budgets based upon taht number.
17:19:37 <herlo> here's the draft, though
17:19:38 <herlo> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Herlo/Reimbursement_Process
17:20:09 <bckurera> thanks
17:20:35 <inode0> !
17:20:56 <bckurera> herlo we can set out basic limits, but if the regions need they can change it or use the basic one, that is fine
17:20:59 <herlo> inode0: please go ahead
17:21:04 <inode0> Regions need real budgets before any of this makes much sense.
17:21:22 <inode0> cwickert thinks we need numbers for regions' spending last year to proceed.
17:21:33 <herlo> bckurera: is this is a *guideline* or set limits?
17:21:50 <inode0> I think each region should be requested to submit a budget for what they want/need to spend in the future instead.
17:22:41 <inode0> Setting these limits will lead to all sorts of issues ... I can discuss those if you want.
17:22:48 <bckurera> inode0 submitting a budget before hand is not that practical, but we can have a rough estimation based on the last year expenses
17:23:02 <herlo> inode0: do you think it would be good to also work on a reimbursement process within each region based upon those limits?
17:23:09 <inode0> bckurera: setting a budget before hand is the way real budgets work
17:24:02 <bckurera> inode0 : as I believe we are not that stable, anyway some regions may be, but I doubt it
17:24:07 <inode0> bckurera: why should you be limited in any way to what you spent last year when your needs this year might be more or less?
17:24:12 <aeperezt> inode0, we can based the budget on previous year expenses plus what we plan to do for the next year
17:24:50 <inode0> we aren't ever going to have numbers for last year - so I really think you need to stop demanding last year's numbers
17:25:14 <inode0> and this year is half over already
17:25:29 <herlo> inode0: I'm not sure that's true. I bet FAmNA can provide what it spent and was reimbursed from 2011.
17:25:46 <herlo> and I bet all the other regions can too, based upon the regional trac instances
17:25:51 <bckurera> inode0 : A rough estimation , APAC have the records on spendings
17:25:58 <inode0> we can estimate roughly but RHT people spend on FAmNA in ways we don't have documented
17:26:29 <herlo> inode0: and to my mind, that's never going to change and shouldn't be accounted for as it's an unpredictable thing
17:26:30 <aeperezt> so we need to get and estimate of what we plan to do this year
17:26:43 <aeperezt> or what is left of it
17:26:44 <herlo> or just say 20%+/-
17:26:46 <inode0> I just don't care what APAC spent last year
17:26:55 <inode0> What does APAC need this year is what I care about
17:28:42 <inode0> and unless APAC will tell me I have nothing of value to base any number on
17:28:43 <bckurera> inode0 The situation is highly dynamic, it is not possible to estimate how much we need for 2012-2013, that is why we cannt piratically have a fine tuned budget, but a rough estimation
17:29:20 <inode0> bckurera: then this is a worthless exercise IMO
17:29:35 <bckurera> therefore I think we need to allocate the regional budget, but not limited to that
17:29:37 <herlo> isn't a budget a rough estimation?
17:29:43 <inode0> we can have no budget responsibility without planning ahead and being limited overall
17:29:56 <herlo> it just says, here's what we *plan* to spend
17:30:05 <bckurera> if the allocation is about to finish we can considering allocating more
17:30:10 <herlo> what we *actually* spend could be more or less than this by say 20%
17:30:21 <inode0> bckurera: what I want is a regional budget -- I just want it based on the needs of the region, not some random amount spent in the past
17:31:12 <herlo> so the point here is that inode0 wants each region to go back to their meetings or what not and come up wiht what they want to spend money on for 2012-2013 Fiscal Year
17:31:13 <inode0> bckurera: FAmSCo should definitely withhold money from the regional budgets to deal with discretionary/emergency matters
17:31:45 <herlo> bring that back and then FAmSCo (and others) can review and approve.
17:31:47 <inode0> well, I think maybe we should try for a number for the 3rd and 4th quarters of FY13
17:32:00 <bckurera> Ok then we can check how many regional can submit a regional budget estimation?
17:32:14 <herlo> inode0: sure, quarterly budgets seem fine.
17:32:17 <inode0> there are four regions
17:32:25 <inode0> they each do it
17:33:00 <herlo> inode0: can you put this on the FAmNA budget?
17:33:01 <inode0> if we allocate just for example 15,000 to FAmNA, just let FAmNA disburse that how it decides
17:33:08 <herlo> s/budget/agenda/
17:33:19 <bckurera> ok then we ask every region to submit an estimation, a budget request for Q3 and Q4
17:33:23 <inode0> limits at that point on line-items are just extra hoops that serve little purpose
17:33:44 <bckurera> FAmSCo members can discuss this in meetings and get a feedback
17:34:01 <herlo> inode0: I still think for certain reimbursements it might be good to have a *guideline* similar to what I've drawn up (based upon recommendations here)
17:34:27 <herlo> but the regions themselves can define what those are
17:35:01 <inode0> guidelines usually are specific to the dollar, I don't object to guidelines
17:35:12 <inode0> are not
17:35:22 <bckurera> herlo I also think we need to keep limits as we agreed
17:35:40 <bckurera> Regions can follow what we set or something they decide
17:35:41 * inode0 hates those limits
17:35:46 <herlo> what I don't want to see is a bunch of piddly requests coming into FAmSCo when the regions could have a good way to deal with it on their own
17:36:03 <inode0> $500 in Ghana is not $500 in NYC
17:36:06 <herlo> inode0: think of them as guidelines, put the word *about* in front of them
17:36:15 <inode0> just arbitrary meaningless numbers
17:36:36 <herlo> and I think this is more of a way to show how it *could* be done
17:37:01 <herlo> inode0: also bckurera just said 'Regions can follow what we set or something they decide'
17:37:33 <bckurera> inode0 it is simple, if there is a problem with the limits then NA can define as they like and want
17:37:39 <herlo> to which I agree. There has to be limits but it can be more of a component of the region, not so much as a global mandate
17:37:45 <inode0> then they aren't limits
17:37:58 <inode0> what is the point of them?
17:38:06 <herlo> as a guideline
17:38:18 <bckurera> yes as a guideline
17:38:21 <bckurera> herlo +1
17:38:28 <herlo> give the people who do the approving/paying of bills/reimbursement some sort of recourse
17:38:29 <inode0> then you can just say "each region should set reasonable limits" blah blah blah
17:38:41 <herlo> yup, and this is a guideline of how it could be done
17:39:06 <inode0> not really
17:39:09 <herlo> but you should have one
17:39:19 <inode0> FAmNA can't set what limit must go to Red Hat or FAmSCo
17:39:50 <bckurera> it is better to have an example, if regions want they can change it as long as they meet their budget then
17:39:51 <herlo> inode0: I'm not arguing semantics with you, please feel free to write one up that works for FAmNA, other regions can do the same. As long as they appear reasonable, i don't see it being that problematic
17:40:07 <inode0> what limits would you like FAmNA to set?
17:40:11 <herlo> dunno
17:40:40 <herlo> it could be based upon types of purchases. Airfare and hotel vs swag might be a good way to set limits.
17:40:41 <inode0> I don't see any of the limits FAmSCo set as being limits a region could set
17:41:08 <herlo> inode0: those are specifically for reimbursement of purchases. Categorization is going to occur.
17:41:29 <herlo> categorize it how you like, this one was done based upon dollar amount
17:41:48 <inode0> we aren't communicating I don't think
17:41:57 <herlo> but please put it on the agenda to discuss the budget and a reimbursement guidelines/process
17:42:26 <inode0> your guideline says FAmNA can approve expenses up to $1999 - can FAmNA change that to $15,000?
17:42:28 <herlo> inode0: I get that you are saying the numbers on the guidelines I've written up don't work...
17:43:12 <herlo> inode0: come up with a schema that works for FAmNA, don't debate the numbers with me. I think FAmSCo just wants to see a reasonable process
17:43:27 <inode0> (a) drop the limits
17:43:35 <inode0> (b) assign budget to each region
17:43:49 <herlo> inode0: like I said, do what you like. This is just an example of a guideline you *could* set.
17:43:50 <inode0> (c) do something later if you think funds were unwisely spent by the regions
17:44:06 * herlo is not disagreeing with this...
17:44:40 <inode0> herlo: well, I don't want to say I am ignoring the FAmSCo guidelines
17:44:41 <bckurera> I need to make some clarification here, I agree regions need to set their own limits
17:44:47 <inode0> and neither does anyone else
17:45:18 <bckurera> but they should be reasonable, the objective is to cover the expenses without having problems
17:45:59 <bckurera> Therefore I strongly agree with (b) and (c)
17:46:04 <bckurera> not with the (a)
17:46:21 <inode0> bckurera: let me give you an example of problems with (a)
17:46:22 <herlo> I think we can discuss the limits based upon what the regions come back with, however.
17:46:36 <inode0> in NA we annually purchase t-shirts one time (normally)
17:46:44 <inode0> that bill is slightly over $2,000
17:47:03 <inode0> we can't approve this bill we have approved for years under the proposed limits
17:47:20 <inode0> we can order of a few less, or split it into two smaller orders though
17:47:33 <inode0> or we could have a new hoop of asking famsco permission
17:47:43 <inode0> none of that is in any way good
17:48:19 <inode0> it just makes the lives of people doing the work harder
17:48:56 <bckurera> inode0 it is a special expense occurring only once an year but our effort here to make the life easier when it come to day to day business
17:49:02 <herlo> inode0: so I have made this suggestion a couple of times. Please come up with a reimbursement process that works for FAmNA, but it does need to exist.
17:49:12 <inode0> herlo: I have
17:49:15 <herlo> inode0: ??
17:49:20 <inode0> give famna a bloody budget
17:49:33 <inode0> then watch famna responsibly spend it
17:50:11 <herlo> inode0: and thus, a budget has numbers and limits, so I'm good with that, but how do you reimburse people spending money within the budget.
17:50:33 <inode0> bckurera: it doesn't improve any other aspect of expense handling that we do now either
17:51:16 <bckurera> inode0 what is the average amount of a fund request in NA?
17:51:30 <inode0> I have no idea
17:51:41 <herlo> inode0: that's what I'm asking for, how do they get reimbursed? I'm thinking 99% of the money spent for big ticket items won't be 'reimbursed' but rather spent on a CC or from a PO from RHT
17:51:47 <inode0> there are swag requests, travel requests, all sorts of requests
17:52:30 <bckurera> The idea behind introducing limits is: to make the life easier for FAmSCo as well as regions
17:53:00 <bckurera> like there is no need to bring little amount for the approval, then FAmSCo saves time and regions too
17:53:01 <inode0> herlo: still, if I can use my judgment to approve $500 then I can approve $1000 by just spending that $500 twice
17:53:29 <inode0> and there is zero point in ordering two shipments of this item to just comply with an arbitrary limit
17:54:03 <bckurera> but if a decision is for a large sum them exactly FAmSCo should involves, and that holds the responsibility
17:54:11 <herlo> inode0: I'm not sure that is applicable. I just stated you should come up with your own limits/rules for reimbursement. I honestly just want them to be reasonable and make it easier for the regions to do the things they want to do.
17:55:09 <inode0> herlo: I have given you my rules many times and I don't think any of these limits make sense so I am not going to propose other arbitrary limits
17:55:11 <herlo> inode0: but somehow, you keep insinuating that the guidelines I've written up and FAmSCo has suggested are rock solid and apply to everyone, but they are just recommendations on how a reimbursement guideline might look.
17:55:59 <herlo> inode0: so you'll just willy nilly approve expenses for things that aren't in your budget and couldn't have foreseen?
17:56:08 <inode0> herlo: so this $1999 limit on regions isn't really a limit, it is just a guideline and if APAC decides to approve something for $3000 that is fine?
17:56:53 <inode0> that is the problem, limits without a budget leads to approving things will-nilly -- bingo!
17:57:12 <bckurera> inode0 that is why I noted, even the regions want use their own limits they should be reasonable
17:57:18 <herlo> as long as they have a guideline that suggests it's okay. And as you state, is within their budget. Mind you, a budget is still important here. We are only talking about reimbursing money that has been spent by contributors. How do you approve things if you don't have a way to do so?
17:57:34 <inode0> they have no budget though
17:57:47 <bckurera> I agree for a budget, but not a rock solid budget
17:57:48 <herlo> and yet, we just agreed with you above that they should create one
17:57:58 <herlo> and submit it
17:58:02 <inode0> bckurera: budgets aren't ever rock solid
17:58:13 <inode0> they are honest best estimates
17:58:34 <bckurera> ok I think we can come to some conclusions here
17:58:40 <inode0> but they encourage planning ahead and responsible spending of limited fund which are both very good things to encourage
17:58:41 <herlo> I'm not going to tell each region what their budget is, I'm going to ask for their opinion on what they think it should be and then ask for that amount of money from RHT to grant their requests
17:58:59 <bckurera> we ask regions to submit their budget requests and then their process and limits
18:00:22 <herlo> bckurera: +1, but we need to discuss and vote on this with a quorum. :)
18:00:42 <inode0> do remember we are all volunteers - this is very hierarchical in structure and doing paperwork isn't going to be done most likely
18:00:58 <herlo> if they want to be reimbursed it will
18:01:10 <inode0> don't be bullies
18:01:15 <herlo> inode0: ??
18:01:31 <herlo> really? I don't think this is being a bully to ask for a receipt and a request for reimbursement
18:01:39 <herlo> how can we pay for something we can't prove?
18:01:47 <inode0> no, you are now talking about something else entirely
18:01:52 <herlo> I am?
18:02:05 <inode0> <bckurera> we ask regions to submit their budget requests and then their process and limits
18:02:30 <herlo> as for a budget, I think a few people will want to have the budget done so they'll do it. That way they can get a promise of funding, which I think is more than they have been getting.
18:02:51 * herlo also notes that bckurera said 'ask'
18:02:57 <inode0> we have rules about receipts and reimbursement process already
18:02:59 <herlo> I don't think that's bullying
18:03:07 <herlo> inode0: an outdated one, yes.
18:03:17 <inode0> and if we say no thanks you say then you don't get money?
18:03:22 <herlo> CommArch doesn't exist.
18:03:26 <inode0> that was the bully part I felt
18:03:34 <herlo> inode0: I didn't say anything of the sort, you inferred that
18:03:40 <inode0> what is required isn't outdated
18:04:05 <inode0> sure, your remark wasn't in the context of the lines above it
18:04:06 <herlo> sure it is, who do you submit it to for actual payment if it's not doable by CC?
18:04:29 * herlo notes we are over time, however.
18:04:37 <inode0> what is not doable by CC
18:04:54 <herlo> dunno
18:04:55 <inode0> no one asks for reimbursement of $4000 that wasn't pre-arranged now
18:05:00 <herlo> agreed
18:05:28 <herlo> I wasn't even suggesting that, but sometimes people spend $1k and it would need to be reimbursed. In some cases it can't be reimbursed by CC.
18:05:32 <inode0> I honestly think we are created a rats nest here with the primary goal being just to stop have small requests come to famsco
18:06:06 <inode0> I'd rather you just give each regions a few thousand to cover small expenses and let them deal with it
18:06:23 <inode0> Very easy, no new hoops to jump through, no new guidelines to write, etc.
18:07:02 <herlo> inode0: that part is defintely of interest. The guidelines for reimbursement now state to ask FAmSCo for reimbursement, so I think that's broken for sure.
18:07:23 <inode0> it will be broken when you don't want to be that last resort
18:07:39 <inode0> so that is a one-line change to say go ask your regional ambassador group
18:07:40 <herlo> um, I think we're fine being the *last* resort. Just not the first.
18:08:59 <herlo> having guidelines of what to reimburse at a certain $$ amount or at a certain type of purchase seems reasonable to me still. if you want to throw themout the window and not use them doesn't mean we won't allow it, but I think there should be a good reason for just throwing out guidelines that could be useful to some regions even if they are not in FAmNA
18:09:40 <inode0> how about $500 is the US is like $50000 some other places?
18:10:24 <herlo> I understand that, which is why we're adking the regions to put something together. More brainpower to come up with a better way for each region to handle it. I'd just like to see what they come up with.
18:11:38 <bckurera> ok time is running
18:11:39 <inode0> I would just give them each a few thousand dollars and let them figure it out without submitting plans for every contingency to famsco first
18:11:45 <bckurera> what would be the conclusion?
18:12:09 <inode0> be an enabler, not a paperwork mill :)
18:12:29 <bckurera> we have inode0 s' idea so will discuss this with others in the next meeting
18:12:31 <herlo> inode0: I think we'll have to continue this conversation later...
18:12:36 <bckurera> today we cannt take a decision
18:12:55 * inode0 should get out of the way - everyone should know how he feels at this point
18:13:48 <bckurera> herlo will bring this to mailing list when you finish the guideline
18:13:52 <bckurera> is that ok?
18:14:19 <herlo> I think we need to come up with a proposal for a request from each region
18:14:26 <herlo> what we want to request them to do and why
18:15:14 <bckurera> sounds good
18:15:18 <herlo> can we end meeting then and discuss that next week?
18:15:23 <aeperezt> sounds good
18:15:47 <herlo> okay, ending meeting
18:16:13 <herlo> #action discuss proposal for reimbursment and regional budget request at next meeting
18:16:18 <herlo> #endmeeting