18:30:36 <pboy> #startmeeting docs
18:30:36 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Sep  6 18:30:36 2023 UTC.
18:30:36 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
18:30:36 <zodbot> The chair is pboy. Information about MeetBot at
18:30:36 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:30:36 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'docs'
18:30:52 <pboy> The object today is to provide an opportunity to discuss some current issues directly quasi virtually vis-a-vis
18:31:02 <pboy> Therefore
18:31:13 <pboy> #topic Roll call
18:31:25 <pboy> Please, everybody who is lurking, say either .hello2 or .hello <fasname>
18:32:36 <hkl> .hello hkl
18:32:36 <zodbot> hkl: Sorry, but user 'hkl' does not exist
18:32:52 <hkl> .hi hkl
18:32:53 <zodbot> hkl: Sorry, but user 'hkl' does not exist
18:33:09 <hkl> .hello2
18:33:10 <zodbot> hkl: Sorry, but user 'hkl' does not exist
18:33:23 <hkl> cognitive load is high
18:33:47 <pboy> Yes, zodbot is a bit picky today.
18:34:20 <hkl> hkl = hank for your reference. I saw the agenda, so I jumped in
18:34:47 <hkl> never used iRC before
18:37:07 <pboy> Hi Hank. I guessed that. You used it before elsewher, Matrix  I think.
18:38:02 <hkl> libera web client is simple. I struglled with matrix for weeks last year
18:39:32 <pboy> I#m still struggeling with Matrix, specifically the encryption setup.
18:39:47 <pboy> But I make progress with Matrix, too.
18:40:59 <pboy> And, by the way, hkl is much easier to type then hankuoffroad   :-)
18:41:11 <hkl> that's true
18:41:30 <pboy> Obviously, we are the only 2 again.
18:41:59 <pboy> If I have a look at my open todo items, we have a lot to discuss.
18:42:11 <hkl> let's do it
18:42:52 <pboy> OK, yes. An alternative may be to make an appointment tomorrow, so I can work on my backlog.
18:43:23 <pboy> But let's start, and we can postpone topics which i need to prepare for.
18:43:42 <pboy> I think, I swith to Open Floor?
18:44:12 <pboy> #topic 5. Open floor
18:44:23 <pboy> So, let's start.
18:45:20 <pboy> I suppose, the most urgent item is the workshop?
18:46:28 <hkl> yes, I wanted to have a quick check on technology, topics and what to discuss. Is Thursday 14 okay for you?
18:47:57 <hkl>
18:48:26 <pboy> I have a appopintment in the morning and will be back at 13:00 CEST, it is 11:00 UTC, isn't it?
18:48:45 <hkl> 12 UTC
18:49:22 <hkl> 2 pm in German time?
18:50:21 <pboy> Yeah, the difference is 2 hours currently.
18:51:22 <pboy> Yes I just checked. It is 14:00 German time, That's perfect for me!
18:51:54 <hkl> as you suggested, we need to check if the video connection works. Also, if the topic can be reviewed with you
18:52:16 <hkl> do you have any questions?
18:52:50 <pboy> No questions at the moment, because I have to read my backlog first, unfortunately.
18:53:12 <pboy> I was incredibly buse the last weeks - again.
18:53:45 <pboy> But now all our server issues at work are resolved, and I hope it keeps that way.
18:53:58 <hkl> i have been trying to declutter things I committed, so I can deliver quality results
18:54:31 <hkl> Good to hear your work issues are under control.
18:54:54 <pboy> Good, I suppose I can find the details in your mails, Matrix posts and discussion?
18:55:14 <pboy> hkl indeed, it was a rough time.
18:56:03 <pboy> I'm the responsible lead and had a lot of discussions with other department menbers and University administration
18:56:09 <hkl> yes, the link above has Jitsi link and you can check discussion. Just so you know for my effort to declutter, I deactivated matrix account. I'll use libera for chat
18:57:05 <pboy> OK! I'm surprised. Everyone else seems to change to Matrix.
18:58:09 <pboy> Libera is perfectly OK for me. I like the spartan, sgraifhtforward  UI
18:58:12 <hkl> matrix caused me super high cognotive overload. I'll find my way to contribute to Docs without matrix and discussion
18:58:48 <hkl> good to know. I'll try spartan
18:59:38 <pboy> So I can ping you on IRC in the afternoon / evening after working hours?
19:00:14 <hkl> yes, that's fine for me to work on Docs topics
19:01:29 <pboy> For tomorrow afternoon I have "working on backlog" on my plan. So it maybe, I have a question or a comment.
19:02:00 <hkl> but how about new people in the future if they are recommended to connect with Matrix?
19:02:39 <hkl> i guess infra team is working on a fix for bridge?
19:04:15 <pboy> As far as I know they are trying hard. But the biggest issue / deferrence seems to be on the Matrix side
19:05:56 <pboy> Regarding the future action, let's co it step by step. I suggest, we concentrate on the workshop. Based on that experience we can decide about how to move forward.
19:07:32 <hkl> so far 14 people responded to 'when-is-best' scheduler
19:08:02 <pboy> That are many! Much more as I expected!
19:08:31 <hkl> your presence in Flock really helped reach out many people. so I extended that in the Magazine.
19:09:16 <hkl> There are people with various experience. One pro technical writer also expressed an interest.
19:09:36 <pboy> I'm glad to hear that. Then all the work was worth it.
19:10:11 <pboy> The differences may make it a little difficult.
19:10:34 <pboy> We should prepare for it.
19:10:36 <hkl> my idea is whatever tool or experience level, there is a job to do
19:11:03 <hkl> for experienced people, release note may be the right challenge?
19:11:49 <pboy> I think the release notes will be largely automated.
19:12:30 <hkl> UX/design is also an important area to make Docs page appealing.
19:12:34 <pboy> However, they will always need a certain amount of manual rework.
19:13:35 <pboy> UX design, yes, we have a lot of minor issues, the abstract, the space between paragraphs and various others.
19:13:37 <hkl> of course, I understood the basics behind release note
19:14:01 <pboy> But that is a CSS thing, not so much a technical writing
19:14:46 <hkl> that's a big impact thing. one change can affect entire Docs pages
19:15:30 <pboy> Yeah, you need a good overview of the Docs CSS structure. It's a bit complicated.
19:16:03 <pboy> And for an experience technical writer we have a lot to do on QD, too.
19:16:18 <pboy> Some atricles are really complex, but outdated.
19:16:35 <pboy> I saw those when I worked on the categories and tags.
19:16:38 <hkl> right, quick docs need continuous care and write-up
19:17:07 <hkl> that's massive work. big thanks to your effort
19:17:21 <pboy> Yes, it was a lot.
19:17:51 <pboy> And to make the best of it, I would like to concentrate our efforts on QD vor now.
19:18:06 <pboy> That is, writing tasks to improve the info.
19:19:11 <hkl> Agree, Quick Docs is most read and used piece of Fedora user documentation.
19:19:56 <hkl> what I mean is new people may come with various interest and expertise
19:21:15 <pboy> Yes, if some people have a special interest on other parts, that's OK, of course. And we should try to support it.
19:21:38 <pboy> But we should primarly suggest QD.
19:22:31 <hkl> agree on that
19:22:33 <pboy> And according to my experience, most people are eager to try something and to gather experience, how it works. The kind of docs is less important
19:22:52 <pboy> in the first step.
19:24:26 <hkl> writing workshop should be able to help with working process and ease learning curve
19:25:51 <pboy> Yeah, I expect I'll come up with ideas, questions and suggestions when I've read all the backlog items.
19:25:53 <hkl> i got an impression that people are tasked with initial PRs and didn't see next steps and quit
19:27:04 <pboy> Maybe, often is is not helpful if none of us can pick up an PR in a short time range, I think.
19:27:41 <pboy> I suppose that's very demotivating.
19:27:59 <hkl> i mean some people are self-starters, the other require onboarding and regular checkin
19:29:25 <pboy> In my experience, establishing regular communication is tremendously important. Very few people are "lone warriors" in the long run.
19:30:04 <pboy> That's why I think IRC meetings are important.
19:30:15 <hkl> that's the point. writing (and contributions) should be collaborative effort
19:31:36 <pboy> Yes, that's why I would like to keep the weekly meeting at least as an offer or even open "office hour".
19:32:36 <pboy> And I hope that with the virtual workshops we will attract more participants.
19:33:07 <hkl> it should help definitely
19:33:15 <pboy> A continuous item could be questions between workshop dates.
19:34:09 <hkl> will share timetable next week before the cloing with you
19:34:21 <pboy> But I think we have to clear the channel. Not that we block anyone. Program Office hour was after us.
19:34:36 <hkl> yes bye
19:34:40 <pboy> Let's continue tomorrow on IRC!
19:34:47 <pboy> By bye
19:34:57 <pboy> #endmeeting