18:30:07 <pboy> #startmeeting docs
18:30:07 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed May 17 18:30:07 2023 UTC.
18:30:07 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
18:30:07 <zodbot> The chair is pboy. Information about MeetBot at
18:30:07 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:30:07 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'docs'
18:30:37 <pboy> #topic Roll call
18:30:52 <pboy> Welcome everyone
18:31:07 <pboy> Let's wait some minutes for everyone to show up.
18:33:11 <hankuoffroad[m]> .hello hankuoffroad
18:33:12 <zodbot> hankuoffroad[m]: hankuoffroad 'None' <>
18:33:50 <pboy> Hi hankuoffroad[m], fortunately, I'm not alone today. :-)
18:36:21 <hankuoffroad[m]> hi all
18:37:17 <pboy> Obviously, we are few today. But let's go through the agenda at least briefly anyway.
18:37:28 <pboy> Any objection?
18:37:33 <hankuoffroad[m]> no
18:37:41 <pboy> OK.
18:37:54 <pboy> #topic Agenda
18:38:10 <pboy> #info Action item followup & Announcements
18:38:22 <pboy> #info Review of GitLab tickets and MRs
18:38:36 <pboy> #info Quick docs update & ticket review
18:38:49 <pboy> #info Discussion of Docs team work plan F39/F40 period
18:39:02 <pboy> #info Design and usability changes/issues
18:39:17 <pboy> #info Removing the outdated installation guide from the public docs site
18:39:26 <pboy> #info Latest ideas on events
18:39:39 <pboy> #info Open floor
18:40:04 <pboy> It's a bit much today. But perhaps we can deal with the first topics quite briefl
18:40:28 <hankuoffroad[m]> that'll do
18:40:32 <pboy> I am a bit handicapped today. Laptop new, keyboard new, displays new, no mouse but trackpad.
18:40:50 <pboy> Everythning new ans nothing works as I'm used to.
18:41:04 <pboy> please some (even more) patience with me.
18:41:13 <hankuoffroad[m]> take your time
18:41:27 <pboy> #topic 1. Action item followup & Announcements
18:41:43 <pboy> I think, no follow up at the moment, so far as I know.
18:41:59 <pboy> But, have I forgotten something? Or does anyone here have anything to add?
18:42:30 <pboy> #info Currently, there is no open follow up.
18:42:44 <pboy> #topic 2. Review of GitLab tickets and MRs
18:42:44 <hankuoffroad[m]> no we can go straight to design and usability
18:43:17 <pboy> Yes, I agrree
18:43:52 <pboy> #agreed We go straight to topic design and usability
18:44:14 <pboy> topic 4. #info Design and usability changes/issues
18:44:18 <hankuoffroad[m]> I'm not up to date about that topic. Could you kindly give a heads-up?
18:44:23 <pboy> #topic 4. #info Design and usability changes/issues
18:44:46 <pboy> YSes. We have 7 tickets related to design issues and one item (Formatting abstracts) still without a ticket.
18:44:58 <pboy> My question: How can we manage this and keep track of it?
18:45:18 <pboy> Darkno can't spend the time at the moment.
18:45:30 <pboy> Can we create a "sub-list"? Or set up a dedicated board?
18:46:11 <hankuoffroad[m]> He is snowed under ongoing web site dev work, but we can list up priority.
18:46:17 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: yes
18:47:14 <pboy> Yes, we should decide, want we want to resolve first- And then try to get it done, either by Darknao or someone else.
18:47:29 <hankuoffroad[m]> which repo is it related to? Docs page or Website 3.0
18:47:53 <pboy> I thjink docs
18:49:35 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: assignment of issue is up to darknao and possibly web team.
18:49:50 <pboy> hankuoffroad[m] Can you setup a dedicated board or something else dedicated for that purpose
18:50:48 <pboy> hankuoffroad[m] Yes, but we should decide about one item and then ask him.
18:50:55 <pboy> Or find someone else.
18:51:19 <hankuoffroad[m]> yes
18:51:50 <pboy> yes  regarding a dedicated board?
18:52:00 <hankuoffroad[m]> take an example - what are critical design issues?
18:53:09 <pboy> I thing just "Design Issues" is OK. and then we select, which one is the most critical, mark it as most important, and then try to find someone.
18:53:12 <hankuoffroad[m]> I think we could summarize them into following caetgories - functionality stuff, content, user journey itself (navigation, menu), aesthetics (UI, iconography, tile and so on).
18:53:40 <hankuoffroad[m]> * I think we could summarize them into the following categories - functionality stuff, content, user journey itself (navigation, menu), aesthetics (UI, iconography, tile and so on).
18:54:50 <pboy> I think, fortunately we have only 7 items at the moment. So I suppose, further categorisateion does not provide a better overview. And I hope, we'll never get so much issues here, that we need furhter categorisateion. :-)
18:55:43 <hankuoffroad[m]> that's an example of how I think about design and usability from my day job. I wasn't much involved with Docs design discussion, so if you could list it up and leave it to darknao and web team. we can focus on hands-on work, which we can do.
18:57:08 <pboy> Yes, I think we should keep it as simple as possible at the moment. Therefore a list, where the track progress. And can pick one item at a time and try to get it fixed.
18:57:36 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: i concur
18:57:49 <pboy> OK. then
18:58:32 <pboy> #action hankuoffroad[m] will setup a board to dedicated list to track our design issues.
18:59:10 <pboy> Next meeting we can decide which one should be the first to get fixed.
18:59:33 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: the problem with that is I don't know design issues on top of my head, but if you could share top list, then I will put them together.
19:00:06 <pboy> Yeah, I open a thread on descussion with the list.
19:00:11 <hankuoffroad[m]> i can also add something that impacts user experience and negative feedback on Ask
19:00:57 <pboy> Are thes design issues, too?  IO.e. something to do with CSS and HTML code?
19:01:25 <hankuoffroad[m]> yeah everything on that you mentioned
19:02:03 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: definitely critical
19:02:06 <pboy> Then it's important for our "Design Issues"
19:02:30 <pboy> Next topic?
19:03:12 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: 100%
19:03:17 <pboy> #topic 5. Removing the outdated installation guide from the public docs site
19:03:33 <pboy> Chris already agreed.
19:03:47 <pboy> Any objections or questions?
19:04:03 <hankuoffroad[m]> i have vague memory about outdated pages that caused issues. Could you take an example?
19:05:11 <hankuoffroad[m]> was it a versioned user docs about installation, which is duplicating and outdated?
19:05:20 <pboy> The complete installation guide is about the "traditional" installation method using anaconda. But we habe live systems now.
19:05:41 <hankuoffroad[m]> can you paste the link?
19:06:16 <pboy> The installation Guide is officially "versioned", but practically just copied over since F24 or so with just minimal adjustments.
19:06:42 <pboy> I don't have a link at hand, at the moment.
19:07:07 <pboy> But we had an extensive discussion about it on discussion some months ago.
19:07:11 <hankuoffroad[m]>
19:07:34 <hankuoffroad[m]> it lands on F36
19:07:54 <pboy> Yes, but it is an unmodified copy of version 35
19:08:25 <pboy> and version 35 is a unmodified copy of 34, and 34 is an unmodified copy of .........
19:09:00 <hankuoffroad[m]> the page appears to be targeted for Workstation user, but in reality the page is less than useful, I'm afraid. so no objection to remove.
19:09:25 <pboy> OK so
19:09:57 <hankuoffroad[m]> QuickDocs have high hit rate for installation. And edition specific installation guides are up to date.
19:10:39 <pboy> #agreed Docs theam decided to remove the outdated "Installation Guide" from the docs site and replace it by a placeholder page.
19:11:15 <hankuoffroad[m]> I think the entire user docs is redundant
19:11:31 <pboy> hankuoffroad[m]  Yes, and therefore tjhe "Installation Gjuide" is just missleading.
19:11:50 <pboy> What do you mean by "user docs"?
19:12:05 <hankuoffroad[m]>
19:12:39 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: one repo on GItLab
19:12:46 <pboy> yes, that is part of the "Installation Guide"
19:13:23 <pboy> hankuoffroad[m] you mean the repo "installation guide"?
19:13:36 <pboy> that is redundant, indeed.
19:14:33 <pboy> Same is true for the "Administrator's Guide", but that's another topic.
19:14:49 <pboy> s/topic/issue/
19:15:01 <hankuoffroad[m]> so just to be absolutely clear, on the Docs home page, top first tile is 'Fedora Linux'. installation guide is there - correct?
19:15:48 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: i agree. I never used it for installation and server set-up
19:16:30 <pboy> No, for the current version, we have
19:16:54 <pboy> There we have links to the Edition specific installation guides. And these are current.
19:17:26 <hankuoffroad[m]> I think when a page (or section) is removed, then index needs to be done so users can get alternative pages when they search it on in-browser (Lunr) or Google
19:18:34 <pboy> Agreed, that is what i mean with a "placeholder page" there are links to current informations
19:19:06 <hankuoffroad[m]> * or Google. That way, users don't get unfortunate 404
19:19:35 <pboy> agreed, no 404, but valid and helpful information
19:19:57 <pboy> at the previous installation guide addresses.
19:20:20 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: as clear as day :)
19:20:28 <pboy> OK.
19:21:07 <pboy> Our time is nearly up. I think we should switch to topic 7 Latest ideas on events.
19:21:32 <pboy> #topic 7. Latest ideas on events
19:21:56 <hankuoffroad[m]> yes, first thing first. is it still good to go with release party and presentation?
19:23:28 <pboy> Yes! I propose I will create a first draft ot the topics we talk about and send it via email (libreOffice doc) and may be then make an appointment for disussion on matrix, or stay with email.
19:23:31 <hankuoffroad[m]> Too many things at the same time but it is a good opportunity to tell community about the Docs
19:23:45 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: Sounds like a plan!
19:24:20 <pboy> Yes, we should take the opportunity.
19:24:33 <hankuoffroad[m]> email is fine to back-and-forth revision for me
19:24:45 <pboy> And maybe, we can rewrite and modify it as an aricle with fedora magaine.
19:25:09 <pboy> after the release party.
19:25:30 <hankuoffroad[m]> that's a good idea, too
19:25:36 <pboy> And use fedora magazin as a Call for Action.
19:26:07 <pboy> OK. But I think, you proposal went a step further.
19:26:10 <hankuoffroad[m]> sort of precursor before Flock
19:26:24 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: which proposal?
19:27:18 <pboy> The proposaö you made in
19:27:43 <hankuoffroad[m]> ah monthly event ideas
19:28:12 <pboy> I like it, I just don't know the best way to realize it.
19:28:27 <pboy> or even any way
19:28:36 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: thanks. Justin mentioned he hosted Docs hackfest in 2018, did you take part in it?
19:28:51 <pboy> No I didn't
19:29:14 <pboy> I started to re-engange end of 2020 with Server Working Grojup
19:29:14 <hankuoffroad[m]> anyhow, we can create our theme and run it as a test and improve.
19:29:52 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: i know you are an active member of Server group and make lots of edits.
19:29:56 <pboy> Good idea. Can you make a kind of plan, how we can start if?
19:30:19 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: I'm happy to, yes. Will share an idea
19:30:43 <pboy> OK. I think, that is it for today.
19:30:59 <pboy> I
19:31:04 <hankuoffroad[m]> timely, thank you
19:31:32 <pboy> I think we have taken a big step forward.
19:31:43 <pboy> Thanks. And bye bye. :-)
19:31:52 <hankuoffroad[m]> cheers
19:32:03 <pboy> #endmeeting