18:30:21 <pboy> #startmeeting docs
18:30:21 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed May  3 18:30:21 2023 UTC.
18:30:21 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
18:30:21 <zodbot> The chair is pboy. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
18:30:21 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:30:21 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'docs'
18:30:32 <pboy> #topic Roll call
18:30:39 <pboy> Welcome everyone
18:30:42 <py0xc3naatMatrix> .hello py0xc3
18:30:43 <zodbot> py0xc3naatMatrix: py0xc3 'Christopher Klooz' <py0xc3@my.mail.de>
18:30:48 <pboy> et's wait some minutes for everyone to shop up.
18:30:50 <py0xc3naatMatrix> Good evening
18:30:54 <pboy> .hi
18:30:55 <zodbot> pboy: pboy 'Peter Boy' <pboy@uni-bremen.de>
18:32:26 <hankuoffroad[m]> .hello hankuoffroad
18:32:27 <zodbot> hankuoffroad[m]: hankuoffroad 'None' <allegrovelo@gmail.com>
18:33:18 <pboy> Welcome again!
18:33:39 <pboy> I think, we should start immediately.
18:33:48 <pboy> #topic Agenda
18:33:58 <pboy> #info Action item followup & Announcements
18:34:06 <pboy> #info Review of GitLab tickets
18:34:14 <pboy> #info Quick docs update & ticket review
18:34:22 <pboy> #info Discussion of Docs team work plan F39/F40 period
18:34:29 <pboy> #info Open floor
18:34:39 <pboy> Any additions?
18:35:13 <pboy> OK, I see none
18:35:18 <py0xc3naatMatrix> There are two further in the topic
18:35:32 <pboy> OK, go on
18:35:35 <py0xc3naatMatrix> But we might check the ones above first.
18:36:12 <py0xc3naatMatrix> The two others would be:
18:36:15 <pboy> I think the other you mentioned on discuss belong to work plan, don't they?
18:36:17 <py0xc3naatMatrix> Consequences of darknao’s decision, and ensuring future consistency in coordinating meetings (agenda), prioritizing tasks and new roles required in Docs team
18:36:21 <py0xc3naatMatrix> Verify consensus for @pboy 's suggestion about GitLab guide
18:36:42 <py0xc3naatMatrix> The second is of minor importance, but the first might be more time critical
18:37:18 <py0xc3naatMatrix> Well, I don't know :) I have no problem with keeping it that way :D
18:37:42 <pboy> I had a discussion with darknao about the consequences.
18:38:09 <pboy> So lets deal with it in topic work plan.
18:38:16 <pboy> OK with that?
18:38:23 <py0xc3naatMatrix> Yes
18:38:32 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: yes first thing first
18:38:48 <pboy> OK, then
18:38:51 <pboy> #topic Action item followup & Announcements
18:39:21 <pboy> As far as I know we no open actions at the moment. Or do I miss something?
18:39:59 <pboy> Obviously not. therefore
18:40:10 <pboy> #info No open actions as of today
18:40:23 <pboy> And I have nothing to announce at the moment.
18:40:40 <py0xc3naatMatrix> me neither
18:40:42 <pboy> Any announcements to make?
18:41:00 <pboy> #info No announcements today.
18:41:02 <hankuoffroad[m]> nope
18:41:13 <pboy> #topic Review of GitLab tickets
18:41:20 <pboy> #link https://gitlab.com/groups/fedora/docs/-/issues
18:41:34 <pboy> Let's spend max 15 mins with this
18:41:58 <py0xc3naatMatrix> https://gitlab.com/groups/fedora/docs/-/boards maybe this view fits some better?
18:42:34 <pboy> OK, yes thanks
18:43:30 <py0xc3naatMatrix> Only one point from my side: the F38 release related topics might be closed and renewed. We left them open for review. Shall I close + renew them?
18:44:04 <pboy> py0xc3naatMatrix yes IMHO !
18:44:06 <py0xc3naatMatrix> Or just change the milestone
18:44:20 <pboy> I would prefer to close it
18:44:21 <py0xc3naatMatrix> Ok, I'll take care
18:44:36 <py0xc3naatMatrix> Yeah, I agree, I think this is more transparent
18:44:44 <py0xc3naatMatrix> * more transparent/comprehensible
18:44:46 <hankuoffroad[m]> py0xc3naatMatrix: agree
18:44:46 <pboy> And to open a new one when we plan for F39 in some weeks
18:45:03 <py0xc3naatMatrix> Yep, I put it on my list and create them
18:45:10 <pboy> #link https://gitlab.com/fedora/docs/community-tools/documentation-contributors-guide/-/issues/27
18:45:22 <pboy> Isn't that one fixed?
18:45:45 <hankuoffroad[m]> not yet
18:46:06 <pboy> Oh, what's still to do?
18:46:33 <hankuoffroad[m]> issue ticket already assigned to darknao, so we can wait
18:46:48 <pboy> OK.
18:47:07 <hankuoffroad[m]> i will keep an eye on it.
18:47:32 <pboy> Otherwise, I don't see anything urgent.
18:47:58 <pboy> There are some quite old ones, one of them for me. I'm working on it.
18:48:53 <pboy> Anything else here?
18:49:26 <pboy> OK, I switch
18:49:38 <pboy> #topic Quick docs update & ticket review
18:49:47 <pboy> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-docs/quick-docs/issues
18:49:57 <pboy> #link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/project-quick-docs-improvement-progress-report-2023-01-04/45549
18:50:06 <pboy> Let's spend max 15 mins here, too
18:51:42 <hankuoffroad[m]> I submitted a minor edit for R Pi - https://pagure.io/fedora-docs/quick-docs/issue/528
18:52:29 <hankuoffroad[m]> ah sent it as comment, not PR, just to make sure the edit request is okay
18:52:46 <pboy> I'll have a look into it over the next few days.
18:53:10 <hankuoffroad[m]> sure thanks
18:53:23 <pboy> And there is this one:
18:53:32 <pboy> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-docs/quick-docs/issue/571
18:53:57 <pboy> I suppose, we get nothing from @jn64
18:54:36 <pboy> So we have to ask t0xic0der again (I did that some weeks ago)
18:54:56 <pboy> The problem is to get the updated image.
18:55:41 <pboy> The other items are work in progress, nothing urgent, I think
18:55:52 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: yes, generic statement on dependencies will do. I agree with pboy comment in that issue.
18:56:12 <hankuoffroad[m]> what do you think of QD design - https://pagure.io/fedora-docs/quick-docs/issue/519
18:56:22 <hankuoffroad[m]> is it still relevant?
18:57:21 <pboy> Well, new design seems to be far away, given our resources.
18:57:36 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: yep
18:57:45 <pboy> But we want to switch from navigation menu to categories and tags.
18:58:42 <pboy> I think, I'll comment on it, close this one and open a follow up regarding categories / tags.
18:58:50 <pboy> Any comment about that?
18:58:51 <hankuoffroad[m]> that'll do
18:59:17 <pboy> OK agreed
18:59:56 <pboy> Anything else at the moment?
19:00:14 <hankuoffroad[m]> we can move on to the next
19:00:29 <pboy> OK
19:00:30 <pboy> #topic Discussion of Docs team work plan F39/F40 period
19:00:52 <pboy> I think, first about our organisational issues.
19:01:03 <py0xc3naatMatrix> You had some points about Darknao if I understood you?
19:01:06 <pboy> I had a discussion with darknao.
19:01:44 <pboy> He will continue to care about the maintenance work of docs site, just as previously
19:02:17 <pboy> But he can't join every meeting
19:02:24 <pboy> at least not at the moment.
19:02:25 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: that's good to hear
19:02:33 <pboy> Yes!!
19:03:00 <pboy> And other as Ben, he does not intend to leave docs team!
19:03:00 <py0xc3naatMatrix> Hmm... Just to ensure that we are on the same page: this also counts for me. I cannot guarantee to be here every week cause of my own schedule.
19:03:49 <py0xc3naatMatrix> But I think this ain't critical, so with regards to Darknao. In the end, we can get everything done in the channel or discourse if necessary
19:03:59 <hankuoffroad[m]> py0xc3naatMatrix: communication and support by Discussion works better for you?
19:05:04 <pboy> Still briefly to darknao, he must and wants "only" something shorter step, also in other teams, where he contributes.
19:05:13 <py0xc3naatMatrix> hankuoffroad: Both discourse and Matrix are ok. The issue not Matrix in general but the fixed time. Wednesday evening is also not the best time for me. For me, flexibility remains important :)
19:05:40 <hankuoffroad[m]> py0xc3naatMatrix: ok I appreciate that.
19:06:09 <py0xc3naatMatrix> But I'm happy that Darknao remains in the team :) I guess we can manage the meeting thing :))
19:06:18 <pboy> So as a summary: It's not as bad as it sounded at first.
19:06:29 <py0xc3naatMatrix> Happy to hear :)
19:07:03 <pboy> Yes, we have to determine how to communicate. For short term issues Matrix is fine, otherwiese discussion, I suppose
19:07:38 <py0xc3naatMatrix> Sounds good.
19:07:55 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: absolutely fine.
19:08:18 <pboy> Maybe we should review the state of our technical status next week?
19:08:31 <py0xc3naatMatrix> What do you mean?
19:09:07 <pboy> I think of a list what is outstanding (e.g. the abstract paragraph)
19:09:22 <pboy> And what is urgent, what nice to have.
19:09:31 <py0xc3naatMatrix> Ah, ok.
19:09:33 <pboy> So we get an overview.
19:10:22 <hankuoffroad[m]> In most cases, we don't have a quorum. Could we switch to every other week, or continue weekly?
19:10:38 <pboy> Anything else about out "ressourcces" and organisation at the moment?
19:10:46 <py0xc3naatMatrix> How big is the quorum atm? (Too long ago :))
19:11:27 <pboy> I don't know either at the moment.
19:11:29 <hankuoffroad[m]> We need more people overall to keep the momentum right. Talking to bot isn't nicest experience when there are only two in the meeting
19:11:47 <pboy> +1. :-)
19:12:01 <py0xc3naatMatrix> If it is below 3, we might adjust it given our circumstances
19:12:12 <py0xc3naatMatrix> s/below/above/
19:12:24 <hankuoffroad[m]> that's why I was contemplating on how to reach out to more potential contributors.
19:13:01 <py0xc3naatMatrix> I wanted to open the topic tomorrow or on Friday, if we have clarified the GitLab queston in advance
19:13:02 <pboy> hankuoffroad[m] We lost some contribs over the last weeks.
19:13:10 <hankuoffroad[m]> I joined Join SIG to get in touch with new people. Ankursinha accepted my request.
19:13:23 <pboy> +1!
19:13:27 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: who did you think lost?
19:13:44 <py0xc3naatMatrix> hankuoffroad[m]: Cool!
19:14:00 <hankuoffroad[m]> anyway, let's focus on silver lining.
19:14:17 <pboy> We had  e.g.  anthonymcglone,
19:14:25 <hankuoffroad[m]> I also organizing a local meet-up to reach out new people in London.
19:14:43 <pboy> Maybe, we should contact them directly
19:14:44 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: is there anything we can learn from?
19:15:15 <py0xc3naatMatrix> hankuoffroad[m]: Maybe I can join you soon in London :D
19:15:18 <hankuoffroad[m]> I submitted a request to Mindshare team for a local event and funding,
19:15:29 <hankuoffroad[m]> py0xc3naatMatrix: oh really? that's nice
19:15:38 <pboy> Well, I wrote an essay some years ago about "community building"
19:15:44 <py0xc3naatMatrix> yes, I will maybe move to London in the second half of the year
19:16:11 <hankuoffroad[m]> py0xc3naatMatrix: fantastic!
19:16:16 <py0xc3naatMatrix> pboy: If they had a FAS, they have a fedora mail you could use
19:16:32 <hankuoffroad[m]> contact who?
19:16:38 <pboy> I thing, the most important is to keep the team going. i.e. we should keep weekly meeting for now.
19:17:00 <pboy> hankuoffroad[m] the authors we lost
19:17:09 <pboy> well "lost"
19:17:12 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: ok that's also fine.
19:17:22 <py0xc3naatMatrix> Yes. I think keeping the meeting is good to keep things together. Even if not everyone can attend each time.
19:18:08 <pboy> I think, I'll take the chair next meeting again, and then we should take it around?
19:18:14 <py0xc3naatMatrix> However, we might open a discourse topic to change the quorum? Leave it open some time and then agree if no one objects? With above 3, we will not be capable to do much in the next time
19:18:52 <pboy> I think, we shouldn't touch the quorum at the moment, but just proceed as good as we can.
19:19:23 <pboy> The quorum is only important, if we have diffidult descision.
19:19:43 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: I can try it the week after
19:19:45 <pboy> But as lang as we are, we don't have any issues.
19:20:04 <pboy> hankuoffroad[m]>. taken!
19:20:23 <py0xc3naatMatrix> Ok, I understood some of the above comments that there are decisions open. Then forget it ;)
19:20:53 <pboy> As long as we agree about decisions, everything is fine.
19:21:04 <pboy> And up to now we always agreed.
19:21:23 <hankuoffroad[m]> Let's keep it that way and thanks
19:21:49 <pboy> hankuoffroad[m] good idea :-)
19:22:15 <pboy> OK, next sub-topic?
19:22:27 <pboy> or anything else here?
19:22:40 <hankuoffroad[m]> i'm done with work/org
19:23:18 <pboy> OK, next thing is the issue with GitLab changing so fast?
19:23:34 <py0xc3naatMatrix> With the assumption that we have a consensus about the GitLab HowTo (as noted in the discourse topic of the meeting), I wanted to ask about the interim solution: I am not a fan of leaving obsolete/unmaintained content in the first line of visibility for users, which might have destructive impacts (make people feel incomptent because it doesn't work, annoy them, create bad perception of us). So is there a tendency for an
19:23:34 <py0xc3naatMatrix> agreement to adjust the page the button is linking to as interim solution? May it be replacing it by a box, or just adding a box, or the idea of interim add a link to some simple tool to leave contributions as suggested by Hank?
19:24:11 <py0xc3naatMatrix> I would be happy with any approach, just leaving the page in the first line of visibility but unmaintained is what I would prefer to avoid.
19:24:26 <pboy> py0xc3naatMatrix I agree in that case we should revoke it temporarly
19:24:26 <py0xc3naatMatrix> not page, link I mean, so the GitLab HowTo Link
19:24:42 <hankuoffroad[m]> py0xc3naatMatrix: hmm, was the tiny button ever a problem for contributors?
19:24:51 <py0xc3naatMatrix> The button is not the issue, but where it links to
19:25:25 <hankuoffroad[m]> py0xc3naatMatrix: i don't understand the issue. could you restate it please?
19:26:05 <py0xc3naatMatrix> The guide no longer fits, and if we leave it unmaintained as suggested (we seem to have had a consensus?) with each change in GitLab, this issue will increase.
19:26:11 <hankuoffroad[m]> GitLab HowTo Link - which part do you think it cause a problem?
19:26:17 <pboy> I think, the issue is we should not have a half complete page in our navigation tree.
19:26:36 <py0xc3naatMatrix> Exactly. And we cannot remain on par with GitLab developments atm
19:27:26 <hankuoffroad[m]> hankuoffroad[m]: i thought about it deeply, and actual change is not much..even 16.0 release of GitLab UI (22 May) does not have breaking changes.
19:27:51 <hankuoffroad[m]> py0xc3naatMatrix: i do update every month.
19:28:00 <pboy> If I understand, it is this page: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-docs/contributing-docs/tools-gitlab-howto/ ??
19:28:13 <py0xc3naatMatrix> Each change makes it potentially necessary to adjust the whole guide, which we cannot. Since the many single changes led the guide to have several approaches at different places, I it hard to read. I cannot implement it at the moment.
19:28:33 <py0xc3naatMatrix> Y
19:28:43 <py0xc3naatMatrix> Yes pboy
19:29:28 <hankuoffroad[m]> py0xc3naatMatrix: i see. several incremental update by different authors made it look little inconsistent.
19:29:42 <py0xc3naatMatrix> So we would need to invest much work to make everything being a single compliant approach.
19:30:11 <pboy> I can't say anything content-wise, just noticed a series of questions
19:30:12 <py0xc3naatMatrix> Yeah, the problem, each single change in GitLab would more or less force us to re-align everything. So much work for less results
19:31:33 <py0xc3naatMatrix> Some parts are still from me, but were not intended the way the guide is currently intended for in its overall approach. So partly written for different audiences/levels. The new approach of hankuoffroad makes atm more sense than my original one, but I am not sure if we can do a full re-write/adjustment.
19:32:25 <pboy> And another question is, do we have readers for this page at the moment? To have a good guide for pagure's page edit would be useful to much more readers at the moment, I guess.
19:32:52 <hankuoffroad[m]> py0xc3naatMatrix: What I learned from incremental updates every month was we didn't have user feedback, except from authors (Chris and me). If you think it is confusing, then I have no objection.
19:33:02 <py0xc3naatMatrix> I read from the past discussions, that the consensus was going towards leaving the guide as it is unmaintained until there is some clarification what GitLab is doing. Did I misunderstood this?
19:33:29 <hankuoffroad[m]> pboy: i can write up a draft for review.
19:33:50 <pboy> hankuoffroad[m] If you want to spend the work, it's completely OK, of course.
19:34:02 <py0xc3naatMatrix> Yes, the feedback has reduced over time. Now, it is only one person left who did some feedback, and who was also (as far as I read it) no longer able to get the structures, since parts of the guide were for an audience that GitLab could not satisfy
19:34:07 <hankuoffroad[m]> that's correct. But taking it down - I didn't agree before.
19:34:12 <pboy> I mean to work to maintain the guide. what do you mean with review?
19:35:07 <pboy> I just notice, our time is up.
19:35:21 <py0xc3naatMatrix> Yes, abosolutely! If you want to spend the work its ok (I cannot invest that much atm). I just thought the idea was anyway to keep it unmaintained some time (I thought this is what you meant when you said Peter suggested it?)
19:35:51 <hankuoffroad[m]> py0xc3naatMatrix: i have a draft already, which was stashed a few months ago. I just need to spend some time to take screenshots and write in proper English.
19:35:53 <py0xc3naatMatrix> So my suggestion was based upon this suggestion to keep it unmaintained
19:36:24 <pboy> Folks, our time is "over up". Maybe, we should open a dedicated discussion about it on discourse
19:36:39 <hankuoffroad[m]> py0xc3naatMatrix: I'll leave it untouched until 22 May and can we review it again?
19:36:58 <py0xc3naatMatrix> Let's shift to Matrix for a moment :) Our time is up
19:37:06 <py0xc3naatMatrix> So our own channel I mean
19:37:10 <hankuoffroad[m]> ok
19:37:19 <pboy> OK, We continue on matrix now.
19:37:26 <py0xc3naatMatrix> I think I misunderstood the agreement with Peter you mentioned somehow
19:37:48 <pboy> #endmeeting