16:29:49 <dustymabe> #startmeeting fedora_coreos_meeting
16:29:49 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Dec  7 16:29:49 2022 UTC.
16:29:49 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
16:29:49 <zodbot> The chair is dustymabe. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
16:29:49 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:29:49 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_coreos_meeting'
16:29:55 <dustymabe> #topic roll call
16:30:08 <dustymabe> .hi
16:30:09 <zodbot> dustymabe: dustymabe 'Dusty Mabe' <dusty@dustymabe.com>
16:30:48 <jlebon> .hello2
16:30:49 <zodbot> jlebon: jlebon 'None' <jonathan@jlebon.com>
16:30:50 <walters> .hi
16:30:52 <zodbot> walters: walters 'Colin Walters' <walters@redhat.com>
16:30:55 <gursewak> .hi
16:30:56 <zodbot> gursewak: gursewak 'Gursewak Singh' <gurssing@redhat.com>
16:31:02 <c4rt0> .hi
16:31:03 <zodbot> c4rt0: c4rt0 'Adam Piasecki' <c4rt0gr4ph3r@gmail.com>
16:31:06 <jmarrero> .hi
16:31:07 <zodbot> jmarrero: jmarrero 'Joseph Marrero' <jmarrero@redhat.com>
16:31:15 <walters> jlebon: Hello `None`
16:31:21 <anthr76[m]> .hello anthr76
16:31:22 <zodbot> anthr76[m]: anthr76 'Anthony Rabbito' <hello@anthonyrabbito.com>
16:31:28 <dustymabe> #chair jlebon walters gursewak c4rt0 jmarrero anthr76[m]
16:31:28 <zodbot> Current chairs: anthr76[m] c4rt0 dustymabe gursewak jlebon jmarrero walters
16:31:51 <anthr76[m]> 👋
16:33:50 <walters> Looks like https://github.com/coreos/fedora-coreos-tracker/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Ameeting are issues that have the meeting label
16:34:24 <dustymabe> #topic Action items from last meeting
16:34:46 <jlebon> walters: i gave us trying to fix that one :)
16:34:49 <dustymabe> Last meeting we had some people who couldn't attend and not enough people around to run the meeting. Thanks @jlebon for trying
16:35:03 <jlebon> up*
16:35:05 <dustymabe> #info there were no action items from last meeting! 👏
16:35:35 <dustymabe> we have one ticket about website revamp for today (maybe ekidney will join us)
16:35:58 <ekidney> im here! Hi everyone 🙂
16:36:05 <dustymabe> #chair ekidney
16:36:05 <zodbot> Current chairs: anthr76[m] c4rt0 dustymabe ekidney gursewak jlebon jmarrero walters
16:36:10 <dustymabe> #topic FCOS website page revamp (feedback)
16:36:14 <dustymabe> #link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/fedora-coreos-front-page-revamp-looking-for-feedback/44632
16:36:19 <dustymabe> 👏 ekidney
16:36:37 <jlebon> ekidney: welcome!
16:37:22 <dustymabe> I had a few questions about the proposal. The 3 images at the top of that post. Are the first two just the inspiration for the 3rd image? i.e. the 3rd image is the only one that would be used on the website?
16:37:32 <ekidney> I've been working with the Web and Apps team on the Fedora Website Revamp project so please have a look at the discussions link and leave any feedback 🙂 Thanks so much everyone! And if you have any questions you can reach out to me directly
16:38:07 <c4rt0> @ekidney 👍
16:38:18 <ekidney> dustymabe: Yah they were just brainstorming / inspiration!
16:38:28 <dustymabe> ekidney: +1
16:38:42 <dustymabe> ekidney: do you know where the "hero pages" for workstation and IoT are today?
16:39:33 <ekidney> dustymabe: Oh yeah I can link them now!
16:41:06 <ekidney> https://design.penpot.app/#/view/d24b8550-780f-11ec-b805-69e39b8fc2b7?page-id=d994e860-780f-11ec-b805-69e39b8fc2b7&section=interactions&index=1 workstation is here! and iot is here: https://design.penpot.app/#/view/a1dac650-cf77-11ec-ab9e-75f6b8214121?page-id=a1dac651-cf77-11ec-ab9e-75f6b8214121&section=interactions
16:41:28 <ekidney> Those ae just mockups at the minute as the team are still building the pages!
16:41:31 <jlebon> hmm, i get a permission denied page
16:41:36 <ekidney> s/ae/are/
16:41:39 <walters> I get a 404/permission denied
16:42:06 <ekidney> https://design.penpot.app/#/view/d24b8550-780f-11ec-b805-69e39b8fc2b7?page-id=d994e860-780f-11ec-b805-69e39b8fc2b7&section=interactions&index=0&share-id=7180df90-93f3-11ec-bd38-efdb6fa63305
16:42:09 <ekidney> https://design.penpot.app/#/view/a1dac650-cf77-11ec-ab9e-75f6b8214121?page-id=a1dac651-cf77-11ec-ab9e-75f6b8214121&section=interactions&index=0&share-id=5b277580-d04b-11ec-ab9e-75f6b8214121
16:42:15 <ekidney> do these work?
16:42:30 <c4rt0> Yeah - those work. Thanks!
16:43:13 <dustymabe> ekidney: awesome - thanks for those links
16:43:35 <dustymabe> Do you know how people navigate to these pages (i.e. the proposed navigation in the future?)
16:43:45 <dustymabe> do they start at `getfedora.org` ?
16:44:41 <jlebon> ekidney: would it be possible to have another version of the coreos one with the sphere being less "glossy" to compare?
16:44:51 <ekidney> I know Ashlyn Knox is working / testing on the navigation for the website at the moment. I believe there will be a front page at getfedora.org!
16:45:11 <lucab> .hi
16:45:12 <zodbot> lucab: lucab 'Luca BRUNO' <lucab@lucabruno.net>
16:45:19 <dustymabe> #chair lucab
16:45:19 <zodbot> Current chairs: anthr76[m] c4rt0 dustymabe ekidney gursewak jlebon jmarrero lucab walters
16:45:28 <dustymabe> 🤗 lucab
16:45:38 <ekidney> jlebon: Of course! I can post more iteration on the discussions post
16:45:39 <ekidney> s/iteration/iterations/
16:45:55 <jlebon> ekidney: i like the supported platforms logos part :)  i've seen that on other OS pages too
16:46:12 <jlebon> lucab: welcome! :)
16:46:49 <dustymabe> ekidney: the reason I ask about the navigation workflow is because right now for FCOS if you click on `fedora coreos` on the getfedora.org page you get taken to our base landing page (that contains our release notes): https://getfedora.org/en/coreos?stream=stable
16:46:50 <lucab> o/
16:47:29 <dustymabe> it's kind of important to us to keep the release notes aspect, which is a requirement I don't think the other editions have
16:47:59 <dustymabe> so I wasn't sure if the hero page was something completely new or not
16:48:52 <ekidney> dustymabe: I can add in that section! this is just a draft at the moment so i can add in / take out anything. Ideally this will be the page that will be the main core os page
16:49:14 <jlebon> maybe it'd be better to have it be a separate page. so first you get that new hero page, and then s/Download Now/See Releases/ and it takes you to our release notes page which also has a Download Now
16:49:42 <dustymabe> jlebon: i'm not a huge fan of the 3 clicks to get to success
16:50:00 <dustymabe> maybe from the hero page we can just link to both 'download now' AND 'release notes'
16:50:03 <jlebon> or maybe we leave it as "Download Now", but we need a better link from the download page back to release notes
16:50:11 <jlebon> or both, yeah
16:50:35 <dustymabe> ok let's move on to some more of the design aspects
16:50:43 <dustymabe> jlebon mentioned gloss already
16:51:20 <dustymabe> for the text at the top - can we re-arrange the oranges so they don't cover any of the text? It's a bit distracting
16:51:56 <ekidney> dustymabe: yep can certainly do that
16:52:04 <dustymabe> nice
16:52:05 <jlebon> or maybe we remove them entirely? i think it might be hard to tell it's the sun (i assume that's what it is, right? :) )
16:52:31 <dustymabe> I assumed from the inspiration photos it was oranges (fruit)
16:52:40 <ekidney> Yeah to add to the planet-y vibe! But I can take them out
16:53:06 <dustymabe> I honestly don't mind a little splash of color to mix it up a bit
16:53:26 <ekidney> I'll take them out if they look like oranges that wasn't my intention! or try make them more star like
16:53:54 <dustymabe> haha - the only reason I thought they were oranges was because of the inspiration photo :) - i was mistaken
16:54:27 <ekidney> hahaha dont worry!
16:55:02 <dustymabe> ok next up - I think maybe I would make the platform/cloud logos a little smaller - a little less "in your face"
16:55:10 <jlebon> could be cool to have that orange-y pattern as the "back" of the gears thing though. i don't know if that's possible or how hard it'd be
16:55:49 <jlebon> like, you're peering through the gears at the core of the planet
16:55:53 <ekidney> jlebon: It's easy enough i can try it out
16:56:18 <dustymabe> may also be cool to have a link to our docs for each platform logo
16:56:54 <ekidney> dustymabe: There was a suggestion to add in the platform names too under the logos there as well so i can make them smaller and do that
16:57:13 <ekidney> dustymabe: That would be cool I can do that!
16:57:42 <jlebon> i think most clouds have a variant of their logo with text, so maybe we could use those instead
16:57:43 <dustymabe> I think adding the platform names might detract a bit from the aesthetic - but mouseover and it says the platform name - definitely a +
16:57:59 <jlebon> but if it's missing for some of them, then better not do it to be consistent
16:58:31 <ekidney> jlebon: Oh yeah I'll try and source those!
16:58:55 <dustymabe> ok very last thing from me: I'm not sure about "The easiest container platform" wording at the top
16:59:30 <dustymabe> I think there are a lot of compromises we make in FCOS that make it not necessarily the easiest
17:00:06 <ekidney> I'm not a copy writer so I was hoping someone could help me out with the wording of things haha Is there any wording you'd prefer?
17:00:18 <dustymabe> anyone here with suggestions?
17:00:45 <walters> I think we've just been using something more like "container-optimized OS"
17:01:43 <jlebon> and for the subtitle, maybe something based on https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-coreos/
17:01:59 <jlebon> e.g. "An automatically-updating, minimal operating system for running containerized workloads securely and at scale."
17:02:08 <jlebon> that might be too long... :)
17:02:21 <jlebon> (took that from https://getfedora.org/en/coreos?stream=stable)
17:02:32 <dustymabe> Maybe "The container optimized OS" and subtitle: "Automatically Updating; Scalable; Secure"
17:02:55 <ekidney> dustymabe: That's great!
17:03:19 <dustymabe> Maybe someone with grammar skills can help make it more correct
17:04:50 <jlebon> "A minimal OS with automatic updates. Scalable and secure."
17:04:51 <ekidney> I'll try find someone! 😂
17:04:59 <jlebon> matches a bit more the format of the workstation one
17:05:25 <dustymabe> WFM
17:05:32 <jlebon> and the iot one is a sentence too looks like
17:05:36 <dustymabe> any other suggestions for ekidney?
17:06:03 <dustymabe> ekidney: I'll try to summarize this discussion and post to the discussion forum post
17:06:21 <ekidney> perfect! thanks everyone 🙂 I'll update you all soon!
17:06:25 <jlebon> ekidney: thanks a lot for working on this!
17:07:08 <ekidney> jlebon: no problem thanks for the help!
17:07:14 <dustymabe> ekidney++
17:07:14 <zodbot> dustymabe: Karma for ekidney changed to 1 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
17:07:30 <dustymabe> thanks for coming today. I knew we'd get way more feedback in a coordinated way for you this way
17:07:51 <dustymabe> #topic tracker: Fedora 38 changes considerations
17:07:56 <dustymabe> #link https://github.com/coreos/fedora-coreos-tracker/issues/1357
17:08:30 <dustymabe> ok so I created this page this morning
17:08:30 <jlebon> dustymabe: when does it stop :)
17:08:35 <dustymabe> jlebon: never :)
17:09:04 <dustymabe> for today I just mostly wanted to FYI this and we can maybe dig into each change in next week's meetting to start to chew them off and consider the impacts
17:09:16 <dustymabe> unless people would rather go through them today
17:09:38 <jlebon> some familiar ones there from last round
17:09:44 <jlebon> i guess those are the ones that got pushed
17:10:18 <dustymabe> jlebon: right - we can probably at least find those which we've already considered in the past and update the resolution here in this ticket before next week's meeting
17:10:41 <dustymabe> i'll try to do that - maybe with some help from friends
17:11:40 <jlebon> dustymabe: heh SGTM
17:11:43 <dustymabe> any thoughts on that strategy before we move to something else?
17:13:04 <dustymabe> #topic open floor
17:13:34 <dustymabe> there was one other topic about GPU firmware - but it's not time sensitive and i'm interested in bgilbert's thoughts there, so i'll push it to the new year
17:13:54 * dustymabe looks at the upcoming release schedule for FCOS
17:14:54 <dustymabe> so it looks like spresti[m] is up for doing the releases next week
17:15:11 <dustymabe> and then marmijo[m] the ones after that (targetted around the 27th)
17:15:43 <dustymabe> is anyone here actually going to be at the keyboard that week of the 26th?
17:16:35 <jlebon> hmm yeah, might be better to shift one week
17:16:37 <dustymabe> I'd volunteer to do it but I'm going to be out of town and unlikely to be able to reliably observe
17:16:56 <jlebon> even if there are people around here, we're pushing to systems whose admins might not be
17:16:58 <marmijo[m]> I wasnt planning on it, but I can do the releases that week if I'm up in the rotation.
17:17:27 <dustymabe> I think in the past we haven't "shifted" but maybe we could
17:18:07 <jlebon> a hybrid approach is to cut next and testing only and delay stable until the new year
17:18:37 <dustymabe> jlebon: or just set the rollout window for stable to start on the following tuesday or something
17:18:46 <jlebon> the main thing is less people will be around to notice regressions
17:18:47 <dustymabe> so it's already released but updates won't happen
17:18:54 <jlebon> dustymabe: yeah, that works
17:19:13 <dustymabe> anyone with an agressive wariness of 0 will get it too (but they asked for it)
17:20:40 <dustymabe> if we do that the releases aren't as time sensitive (i.e. don't have to go out on tuesday) so reviews and stuff can kind of happen as people are available
17:21:12 <dustymabe> in which case me and marmijo[m] can probably tag team it (if we can't find anyone else that's just going to be around anyway)
17:21:54 <dustymabe> any other topics for open floor?
17:21:56 <jlebon> i should be able to pop by too
17:22:08 <dustymabe> walters: I've been playing around with ostree native containers a bit
17:22:19 <marmijo[m]> dustymabe: works for me!
17:22:24 <dustymabe> marmijo[m]++
17:23:22 <dustymabe> any other topics for open floor?
17:24:16 <lucab> there was https://github.com/coreos/zincati/pull/904 which I think it's mostly an experiment
17:25:15 <dustymabe> lucab: interesting
17:25:20 <lucab> (I plan to reply there, but I've been busy and I'm re-setupping my workstation)
17:25:44 <walters> A quick note: https://github.com/containers/bootc is new and in active development
17:26:49 <dustymabe> walters: I still don't quite understand it I don't think.
17:27:04 <dustymabe> is it meant to replace rpm-ostree?
17:27:08 <walters> It = Bootc?
17:27:11 <dustymabe> or be installed alongside it?
17:27:13 <dustymabe> yes
17:27:35 <walters> https://github.com/containers/bootc#relationship-with-rpm-ostree
17:28:12 <dustymabe> right, I still don't get it
17:28:29 <dustymabe> where would we install bootc, but not rpm-ostree ?
17:28:29 <walters> But to cross link with the link lucab posted, I am thinking we should roll some functionality zincati has into bootc directly
17:28:45 <dustymabe> and what does bootc actually do?
17:29:02 <walters> Anywhere you don’t want to drag in a dependency on the rpm/dnf stack for one
17:29:17 <walters> Bootc is just a thin simple client
17:29:29 <walters> It is also usable for non rpm distributions
17:29:43 <dustymabe> so hypothetically...
17:30:03 <dustymabe> we could build FCOS today using `rpm-ostree` but inside the ostree itself only include `bootc`
17:30:19 <dustymabe> and then use `bootc update` to upgrade the installed system using a remote container image?
17:30:53 <walters> Exactly
17:31:47 <dustymabe> and I'm sure there is some use of this that's pending that caused you to start working on it? i.e. does IoT want that?
17:33:23 <walters> rpm-ostree is an old and complex project that's fairly battle tested but also weighted by its history; there's a mix of good ideas, mediocre ideas, and not great design decisions (for example, the DBus API)
17:33:37 <dustymabe> The example given above makes things alot more concrete for me.. More so than the text in the README, might be useful to post that there.
17:34:02 <dustymabe> walters: +1 - so mostly drop the baggage?
17:34:06 <walters> bootc will not expose ostree or rpm
17:34:51 <walters> yeah, also a fresh take on a very very simple CLI and UX
17:35:18 <dustymabe> 👍
17:35:30 <walters> also, being able to be Rust from the start is very refreshing versus every change in rpm-ostree having to nagivate a big mess of C/C++ and DBus
17:35:32 <dustymabe> anyone with anything else for open floor - sorry for the side discussion
17:36:46 <dustymabe> #endmeeting