18:30:43 <bcotton> #startmeeting docs
18:30:43 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Aug 31 18:30:43 2022 UTC.
18:30:43 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
18:30:43 <zodbot> The chair is bcotton. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
18:30:43 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:30:43 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'docs'
18:30:51 <pboy> .hi
18:30:52 <zodbot> pboy: pboy 'Peter Boy' <pboy@uni-bremen.de>
18:31:04 <hankuoffroad[m]> .hello hankuoffroad
18:31:05 <zodbot> hankuoffroad[m]: hankuoffroad 'None' <allegrovelo@gmail.com>
18:31:06 <bcotton> #topic Roll call
18:31:18 <darknao> .hi
18:31:19 <zodbot> darknao: darknao 'Francois Andrieu' <darknao@drkn.ninja>
18:31:35 <bcotton> #chair pboy darknao pbokoc
18:31:35 <zodbot> Current chairs: bcotton darknao pbokoc pboy
18:31:41 <pboy> Was I too early ?
18:31:45 <pboy> .hi again
18:31:49 <zodbot> pboy: pboy 'Peter Boy' <pboy@uni-bremen.de>
18:32:17 <bcotton> pboy, you checked in after the "recording" started, so you're good
18:32:30 <pboy> OK, thanks
18:33:24 <bcotton> #topic Announcements
18:33:37 <bcotton> #info Some F36 release notes still need to be written https://pagure.io/fedora-docs/release-notes/roadmap/F36
18:33:42 <bcotton> #info The F37 Beta freeze has begun. Expect to see some Changes deferred to F38
18:33:44 <bcotton> #info We use GitLab to track work: https://gitlab.com/groups/fedora/docs/-/boards
18:33:50 <bcotton> Any other announcements?
18:34:25 <bcotton> #topic Review action items
18:34:37 <bcotton> #info There were no action items from the previous meeting
18:34:47 <bcotton> #topic The future of Fedora Docs website
18:34:50 <bcotton> #link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/the-future-of-fedora-docs-website/41706/
18:35:25 <bcotton> so Anushka Jain's survey gave us some valuable insight. for me, the biggest takeaway was that we need to be focused and sustainable
18:36:29 <pboy> Yes, there are some general rules resulting from it
18:36:53 <pboy> The most import: Concentrate on fedora specific solutions
18:37:37 <pboy> The second: Reference upstream documentation systematically, con’t „retell“ upsream doc
18:38:16 <pboy> That would affect a lot of Quick doc articles, i think.
18:38:24 <bcotton> agreed. we've spent too much effort in the past on documentation that doesn't add value
18:39:07 <bcotton> when I was talking to Anushka about this, i talked about Fedora Docs' "market fit"....and the fact that we're not currently meeting what the market needs from us
18:39:54 <pboy> But it's difficult to really measure that.
18:40:33 <pboy> Helpful would be perhaps a request statistic
18:40:33 <bcotton> it is. but we at least have the general shape of it
18:41:24 <pboy> And another essence for me: we should start implementing our plan as soon as possible.
18:42:44 <bcotton> it would be really nice to have that available for the F37 release in late October. i don't know if that's realistic, but that would be ideal
18:43:01 <hankuoffroad[m]> I reckong Docs survey has more value with narrative telling user needs than statistical significance
18:43:18 <pboy> Regarding "market fit": it would be helpful to have a set of criteria against which we could conduct a review of sites.
18:43:30 <pboy> hankuoffroad[m]>
18:43:51 <pboy> hankuoffroad[m] Of course, but as a first step that can help.
18:44:18 <pboy> review of sites ->. review of document pages
18:44:35 <pboy> Translating KI is not perfect. :-)
18:45:35 <pboy> bcotton  Maybe, we should make a step-by-step plan?
18:45:55 <bcotton> sure. who is "we"? :-)
18:45:56 <pboy> I think, October should be achievable
18:46:08 <pboy> good question. :-)
18:46:29 <pboy> Probably me and Anuska?
18:46:48 <pboy> SORRY:  Anushka
18:47:05 <bcotton> Anushka Jain: are you around?
18:47:59 <hankuoffroad[m]> Plus, what about involving writers of each Edition - CoreOS, Silverblue...Server (pboy is already here)?
18:48:45 <pboy> hankuoffroad[m] Yes, at least we should try
18:49:37 <pboy> In general, the interest in documentation is not excessive. Rather, it's a chore.
18:49:40 <bcotton> #action pboy (and perhaps likeanushka) to develop a step-by-step plan for the re-formed product-oriented docs
18:51:36 <pboy> And a second task would be a criteria catalog for good documentation, or documentation we want achieve.
18:51:40 <bcotton> at least we can take solace in the fact that all open source projects feel that pain
18:51:53 <pboy> A kind or "Documentation guide"
18:52:14 <pboy> bcotton Indeed!
18:53:54 <pboy> And for the step-by-step plan we need darknao as well!!!
18:54:59 <hankuoffroad[m]> Sorry I need to drop off to catch a flight. @pboy i like the idea.
18:55:10 <bcotton> safe travels, hankuoffroad
18:55:16 <hankuoffroad[m]> thanks
18:55:55 <bcotton> do we want to discuss py0xc3's comment re: "tagging" the last revision date
18:56:11 <pboy> Please, a step pack
18:56:24 <pboy> Where is the best place to develop the plan?
18:56:35 <pboy> in discussion or in a ticket? From the latter we can possibly make milestones, in gitlab?
18:57:18 <pboy> Or start in discussion and continue in a ticket?
18:57:42 <pboy> darknao what do you think?
18:57:49 <bcotton> you could put the plan in discussion for ...discussion... and then put milestones in gitlab once it's settled. or go directly to gitlab and adjust the issues as necessary
18:58:19 <bcotton> i think we have a general agreement on moving forward, so since this is mostly execution instead of strategic planning, going directly to gitlab is fine
18:58:30 <darknao> whatever is best for you all, both are fine to me
18:58:47 <pboy> OK.
18:59:15 <pboy> I'll put a rough plan in discussion and the we'll see.
18:59:23 <darknao> I personnally think it would be best to do so in gitlab directly, but I think there is a preference doing so in discussion instead from what I've seen in the past
19:00:01 <pboy> I would prefer gitlab, but my gitlab skills are not overwhelming, currently. :-)
19:00:47 <darknao> that's ok, I actually think discussion feel a bit more inclusive than gitlab anyway
19:01:17 <bcotton> it is. but it feels like we're at the "do it" not "discuss it" stage here
19:01:33 <pboy> darknao good point! We have a chance that more people get aware of what is ongoing.
19:01:59 <pboy> bcotton ++!!
19:03:20 <darknao> ok so gitlab it is?
19:04:01 <pboy> darknao. YES, we start with a (new) tracking ticket?
19:04:34 <pboy> I would create one with a detailed proposal of steps.
19:04:37 <darknao> pboy: sounds like a plan
19:04:51 <pboy> OK, decided.
19:06:04 <bcotton> #agreed The plan will be created as a GitLab tracking ticket
19:07:43 <bcotton> back to: do we want to discuss py0xc3's comment re: "tagging" the last revision date?
19:08:32 <pboy> Which of the threads was that (sorry, I lost track)
19:09:57 <pboy> On the other hand, I think that's very specific to Quick Doc. And that is an issue in itself. We can't do everything at the same time.
19:10:29 <bcotton> that was in reply to the agenda thread
19:10:55 <bcotton> I think it would apply to all docs, but I agree that we can't fix everything at the same time
19:10:58 <darknao> https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/docs-meeting-agenda-2022-08-31/41894/3
19:11:59 <pboy> I think it makes sense in general. But we must not get bogged down. We can only tackle that after F37.
19:12:23 * bcotton nods
19:12:38 * darknao agree
19:13:50 <darknao> as bcotton said, I think we should focus on release notes & install guides first
19:14:29 <darknao> and we can't even keep up with release notes as I can see, so let's not add anything else for now I would say
19:15:05 <pboy> Yes, release notes are a hefty chunk. And we can't bring F37 release notes only in January. :-)
19:16:10 <pboy> We should discuss next week or so how we can make release notes not to suffer so much.
19:16:45 <bcotton> #info Topic for next week: improving Release Notes process/attention
19:17:44 <bcotton> anything else for this topic?
19:18:02 <pboy> nope
19:19:19 <bcotton> #topic Open floor
19:20:32 <bcotton> doesn't sound like there's anything for open floor today
19:20:57 <bcotton> i guess there's the question of who will chair next week's meeting
19:21:04 <bcotton> as i am stepping down from the board
19:22:41 <pboy> In Germany, we have the "constructiveness principle"!  No resignation without succession, otherwise continue to manage.
19:23:04 <pboy> successor
19:24:27 <bcotton> haha, well my ancestors left Germany in the mid-to-late 19th century, so I'm not sure I'm bound by that principle anymore ;-)
19:25:15 <pboy> darknao what about you?
19:25:47 <pboy> I have to chair a server meeting right before our meeting.
19:25:55 <darknao> I guess I can take it yes, at least for next week
19:26:20 <pboy> OK! Thanks!
19:27:10 <pboy> We'll have to discuss how we want to organize it at the long term.
19:27:34 <bcotton> #info darknao will chair next week's meeting
19:27:42 <bcotton> thanks everyone!
19:27:46 <bcotton> #endmeeting