15:01:20 <mattdm> #startmeeting Council (2018-12-19)
15:01:20 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Dec 19 15:01:20 2018 UTC.
15:01:20 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
15:01:20 <zodbot> The chair is mattdm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:01:20 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:01:20 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2018-12-19)'
15:01:22 <mattdm> #meetingname council
15:01:22 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
15:01:24 <mattdm> #chair jonatoni bex contyk dgilmore dperpeet langdon mattdm sumantrom tyll bcotton pbrobinson
15:01:24 <zodbot> Current chairs: bcotton bex contyk dgilmore dperpeet jonatoni langdon mattdm pbrobinson sumantrom tyll
15:01:26 <mattdm> #topic Introductions, Welcomes
15:01:29 <contyk> .hello psabata
15:01:30 <mattdm> Let's see who we have today :)
15:01:30 <zodbot> contyk: psabata 'Petr Šabata' <psabata@redhat.com>
15:01:50 <dgilmore> hi
15:01:52 <jonatoni> .hello2
15:01:53 <zodbot> jonatoni: jonatoni 'Jona Azizaj' <jonaazizaj@gmail.com>
15:01:58 <langdon> .hello2
15:01:59 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@redhat.com>
15:02:34 <bcotton> .hello2
15:02:35 <zodbot> bcotton: bcotton 'Ben Cotton' <bcotton@redhat.com>
15:02:38 <mattdm> oh good. I was afraid everyone would already be off on vacation
15:02:50 <mattdm> do we have sumantrom[m]?
15:03:25 <mattdm> i guess not :)
15:03:44 <mattdm> #topic Agenda
15:03:52 <mattdm> This is nominally the objectives update meeting
15:04:17 <mattdm> we said we were going to make contyk and sumantrom[m] do summaries
15:04:31 <mattdm> but maybe it's best to start that in a coordinated way in the next year
15:04:55 <mattdm> I have some other topics in mind too....
15:05:11 <mattdm> 1. reporting out on the hackfest (status)
15:05:25 <mattdm> 2. the idea we had for a mentorship summit (tag jonatoni)
15:05:26 <contyk> yeah, I still need to figure out how to approach that
15:05:37 <mattdm> 3. money, spending it
15:05:47 <langdon> just fyi i have to leave at about 15m before meeting end
15:05:59 <mattdm> I think that's a pretty good set up for a meeting. does anyone else have anything to discuss?
15:06:09 <mattdm> langdon: we can try to make it a half-hour meeting :)
15:06:42 <langdon> +1!
15:06:48 * dgilmore has nothing else today
15:06:49 <mattdm> okay let's get started then
15:06:56 <mattdm> #topic Hackfest reporting
15:07:12 <mattdm> bcotton drafted up a commblog post which i am in the process of rephrasing
15:07:38 <mattdm> particularly, i don't want the whole thing to get lost in a "the fedora council wants to switch fedora to using proprietary software!" misunderstanding
15:07:47 <mattdm> So I am carefully wording the part about github
15:07:55 <mattdm> I hope to have that ready to post this afternoon
15:08:06 <mattdm> There was already some discussion on my initial post
15:08:22 <mattdm> #link https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/fedoras-strategic-direction-an-update-from-the-council/
15:08:28 <tyll> .hello till
15:08:29 <zodbot> tyll: till 'Till Maas' <opensource@till.name>
15:08:37 <mattdm> hi tyll!
15:08:46 <mattdm> #link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/council-discuss@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/LWIJRBR7A3CSUFO6QNXSYFLNZCEG566K/
15:09:07 <mattdm> #link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/fedoras-strategic-direction-an-update-from-the-council/796
15:09:14 <mattdm> speaking of split communication :)
15:09:37 <mattdm> the mailing list thread generated some good questions, and bcotton and i are going to work those into a sort of slowly-played back FAQ
15:09:44 <mattdm> with commblog posts weekly
15:09:49 <mattdm> starting in the new year
15:10:16 <mattdm> The discourse discussion went pretty heavily into "fedora must be pure". If members of the council want to weigh in there, that'd be nice
15:10:50 <langdon> ack
15:10:51 <mattdm> so that's my update. comments, questions? :)
15:11:21 <dgilmore> mattdm: what is a summary of the feedback?
15:11:40 <mattdm> dgilmore: I'd say: generally positive, but people want more details and clarity
15:12:14 <langdon> me too :)
15:12:19 <dgilmore> mattdm: okay, I had personal feedback and they said things were too vague and not enough substance
15:12:33 <mattdm> dgilmore: yeah that sounds about right. so, this next post will help
15:12:43 <mattdm> and then that's also part of the idea of continuing communication
15:13:05 <mattdm> ok next topic?
15:13:21 <tyll> I noticed in a discourse discussion on CoreOS that someone used Building Block for GItHub
15:13:33 <tyll> it seems that it is not completely clear what a building block is
15:14:05 <mattdm> tyll: ok, that's useful feedback. clearly that's not what we meant
15:14:26 <mattdm> github is, like, a crane or scaffolding or something
15:14:35 <mattdm> to keep with the metaphor
15:14:38 <langdon> ha
15:15:11 <mattdm> so, okay, in the interest of short meeting, next topic
15:15:18 <mattdm> #topic Mentor summit idea
15:15:37 <mattdm> this is an idea jonatoni, bexelbie, and I had when we were sitting at the airport on the way home
15:15:46 <mattdm> jonatoni do you want to take this or should i keep talking? :)
15:16:16 <jonatoni> would be great if you can do it :/ I'm still in a work meeting and haven't finished it yet :(
15:16:26 <mattdm> jonatoni: ok
15:16:27 <jonatoni> sorry
15:16:29 <mattdm> np
15:16:49 <mattdm> We were talking about ways to actually increase involvement in the project
15:17:01 <mattdm> and one of the things that kept coming up is: not enough mentors
15:17:24 <mattdm> Which made us think about ways to encourage the mentors we do have and to help build more
15:17:31 <mattdm> so, the idea of having a Fedora Mentor's Summit
15:17:43 <mattdm> and putting it somewhere nice. like, EVEN NICER than Minneapolis
15:17:46 <tyll> do we have a clear list of mentors?
15:17:55 <mattdm> so it's a little bit of a reward
15:17:57 <bcotton> or even what "mentors" means?
15:18:04 <langdon> ooo.. like pittsburgh!!?!?!?
15:18:08 <mattdm> tyll: no. well, there are ambassador mentors
15:18:20 <mattdm> but also people who have been active in GSOC and Outreachy
15:18:39 <mattdm> and there are some people who are just... generally good and helpful at it
15:18:46 <mattdm> Join SIG, Fedora Classroom
15:19:03 <mattdm> So, we'd shoulder-tap some invitees. Especially for the first one
15:19:11 <langdon> i think this is a VERY good idea.. almost like a sales kickoff/summit .. bring everyone together to talk about what things like "building block" means, reward contributors, etc.. although i struggle with the overlap with flock..
15:19:38 <mattdm> And then the idea woudl be kind of like the CLS -- community leadership summit. with some guest speakers and then breakout sessions
15:19:44 <mattdm> maybe even specific mentorship training
15:19:59 <mattdm> langdon: it *could* be something associated with flock
15:20:29 <mattdm> I see flock as more of the sales kickoff meeting and this more focused on leadership building (and leadership specifically in the area of mentorship)
15:21:30 <mattdm> Any thoughts?
15:21:35 <mattdm> jonatoni: did I represent that well?
15:21:49 <langdon> ok.. i would like to see a bit more in flock of "sales kickoff" then.. i think it is a bit too focused on "future strategy" and not enough on "implement current strat"
15:21:54 <jonatoni> mattdm: definitely yes :) thanks
15:21:58 <tyll> mentorship training sounds like a good idea, however it is something that aspiring mentors need most and not established mentors I guess
15:22:28 <mattdm> langdon: *nod* yeah that's good feedback too.
15:22:52 <dgilmore> what langdon said
15:22:52 <mattdm> tyll: yeah the idea was to start with the established mentors, and maybe we could ask those people for suggestions for others to invite
15:23:22 <mattdm> and then maybe in the next year we can build on that -- or more specifically, the people at the conference the first year can build what they think will be most helpful the next year
15:23:34 <dgilmore> mattdm: I like the general idea. need some more specifics
15:23:41 <mattdm> dgilmore: that's a familiar phrase :)
15:24:25 <mattdm> At this point it's just a general idea. it'll take some time to put together
15:24:29 <langdon> well... i think we need to name the "lead of mentors" and have them write this up.. is that jonatoni?
15:24:39 <tyll> I wonder if we actually need something were we invite potential contributors and bring them together with good mentors to convert them into actual contributors
15:24:50 <langdon> tyll: +1
15:25:49 <mattdm> tyll: yeah, that's kind of a second thing. maybe this could be a multi-day thing with the first part for mentors and the second part for potential new (or new-ish) contributors
15:25:52 <tyll> I am not sure if the outlook of being rewarded with a mentorship summit is a good incentive to get the mentors that we need
15:26:08 <mattdm> tyll: open to other ideas for sure
15:26:18 <mattdm> tyll: do you think it's a bad incentive, or an insufficient one?
15:26:57 <bcotton> i think it could attract people who want the reward but who would be bad mentors
15:27:19 <bcotton> i don't have a good way to address that off the top of my head
15:27:22 <mattdm> bcotton I'm thinking it'd be an invite-only event
15:27:27 <tyll> mattdm: I fear that it could attract mentors who will not stick around when there is no reward anymore
15:27:44 <mattdm> tyll: I think it's not a big enough reward to cause that problem :)
15:27:54 <jonatoni> bcotton: that's why would be invite-only, to prevent that or that's how we thought about it
15:28:07 <mattdm> and we would *see* through the next year how active people are
15:28:25 <jonatoni> +1 with mattdm
15:28:38 <tyll> can we maybe pick a university group or similar and have an intenvise mentoring event there with top and aspiring mentors
15:28:47 <mattdm> to answer the "who is filling out this idea" question, yes, mainly jonatoni but with support from me and bex and mindshare
15:28:55 <mattdm> tyll +1 university connection is a good idea
15:29:01 <bcotton> that makes sense. but is that why people aren't doing more mentoring? in other words, are we addressing the wrong problem?
15:29:06 <tyll> then the aspiring mentors can learn from the top mentors and the top mentors can share their experience by live mentoring
15:29:25 <bcotton> my concern is that we'd get people excited to be mentors, then they'd hit the same constraints they already have that keep them from doing more mentoring
15:29:25 <mattdm> tyll: *nod*
15:29:39 <bcotton> which isn't a reason to *not* do the experiment, but...
15:29:48 <mattdm> bcotton: having a place to talk about those challenges together can be a step in solving them, too
15:30:01 * mattdm looks at clock. Let's continue this discussion more later
15:30:03 <dgilmore> I kinda like the idea of a Aspiring Mentors Program, would we have any resources to run virtual classes?
15:30:12 <mattdm> dgilmore: yes. yes we would.
15:30:21 <contyk> AMP
15:30:30 <mattdm> contyk: yes :)
15:30:38 <langdon> we actually have virtual classes already
15:31:00 <mattdm> langdon: yeah -- definitely want to get that group of people involved.
15:31:02 <langdon> i would propose that we ask the mindshare committee go come back with a solid proposal and move the discussion to their meetings
15:31:22 <tyll> bcotton: I am also wondering, maybe the problem is that there are not enough people who would like to be mentored
15:31:25 <mattdm> langdon: sumantrom[m] isn't here, so... jonatoni can you work with mindshare on this?
15:31:32 <langdon> i would like to see it with a "general mentorship program" .. as just one piece
15:31:35 <jonatoni> mattdm: sure
15:31:38 <dgilmore> langdon: agreed
15:31:39 <mattdm> jonatoni++
15:31:39 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for jonatoni changed to 6 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:31:49 <mattdm> ok so
15:31:52 <mattdm> #topic FY19 budget
15:31:53 <dgilmore> I think at this point we need conrete proposals from mindshare
15:32:03 <langdon> mattdm: is there no "action" on last?
15:32:07 <mattdm> #undo
15:32:07 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0x7fe54b949e10>
15:32:12 <mattdm> langdon: fine fine fine
15:32:16 <langdon> :)
15:32:21 <mattdm> #topic jonatoni to work with mindshare on concrete proposal
15:32:24 <mattdm> there :)
15:32:33 <langdon> thats a topic :)
15:32:35 <mattdm> #topic FY19 budget
15:32:54 <mattdm> #link https://budget.fedoraproject.org/budget/FY19/overall.html
15:33:01 <mattdm> FY19 ends at the end of February.
15:33:13 <mattdm> We have a huge amount of unspent cash
15:33:22 <mattdm> this is not really a good problem to have :)
15:33:25 <contyk> ah, that's sooner than I thought
15:33:47 <contyk> well, I'd like to hold a lifecycles hackfest, apparently in February now
15:33:52 <dgilmore> mattdm: how much are we looking at not having spent?
15:34:06 <mattdm> DiscordBridge: current bottom line is $66,846.40
15:34:07 <langdon> i have two proposed actions for last if we can jump back to that topic after this
15:34:09 <contyk> I talked to bexelbie about it yesterday; just need to figure out the details (who, where, the agenda)
15:34:13 <mattdm> uh, DiscordBridge ? no
15:34:19 <mattdm> dgilmore: current bottom line is $66,846.40
15:34:22 <mattdm> there :)
15:34:34 <mattdm> but there are some outstanding things
15:34:40 <dgilmore> mattdm: okay, what is scheduled to be spent?
15:34:41 <tyll> here is also a ticket to spend some money on a Badges hackfest
15:34:43 <mattdm> We were hoping to do a gigantic order of new-logo swag
15:34:51 <mattdm> like, a really really good chunk of that
15:34:57 <langdon> contyk: lifecycles? or modularity? or both/combined?
15:35:08 <mattdm> but the design team feels like that would be too rushed for something as important as a new logo
15:35:19 <contyk> langdon: both; modularity implements aspects of the lifecycle objective
15:35:34 <langdon> ok.. just checking
15:35:39 <dgilmore> mattdm: looks live diversity, mindshare and us have not done their jobs
15:35:44 <mattdm> oh this reminds me of one more topic to stik in
15:35:55 <mattdm> dgilmore: spending money responsibly is hard
15:36:01 <jonatoni> dgilmore yeah
15:36:19 <mattdm> this is why I had the "mindshare needs 100 $150 events next year" goal
15:36:26 * langdon looks at mattdm for the invite for the f29 release party in bos
15:36:37 <langdon> :P
15:36:37 <mattdm> langdon: looking for you to organize it
15:36:50 <langdon> pfft... i *attend* parties
15:37:10 <mattdm> anyway, if we have hackfests that are in the spring *after* the end of the FY, we might be able to pay for them upfront
15:37:19 <mattdm> we are also looking at moving some of next summer's flock costs that way
15:37:31 <mattdm> let me get in my next topic before we end meeting
15:37:39 <mattdm> #topic Packager Experience objective proposal
15:37:46 <mattdm> this came in on the mailing list.
15:38:02 <mattdm> I think it's an interesting idea.
15:38:07 * langdon hasn't had an oppty to really read it
15:38:10 <mattdm> plus, I love to see them coming in from non-redhatters
15:38:16 <langdon> been a busy couple / 3 weeks
15:38:19 <langdon> mattdm: +1
15:38:24 <mattdm> I'm wondering if this should be merged with the updated modularity proposal
15:38:40 <mattdm> because I think a lot of the remaining modularity work *is* packager workflow
15:38:42 <contyk> what list was that?
15:38:48 <mattdm> but that's just my first impression
15:38:51 <mattdm> contyk: hold on a sec
15:39:01 <tyll> it was intiially on the devel list
15:39:02 <mattdm> #link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/council-discuss@lists.fedoraproje
15:39:08 <dgilmore> mattdm: I would like to see it go much further than proposed
15:39:22 <contyk> link broken
15:39:33 <mattdm> contyk: ugh stupid super-long hyperkitty links
15:39:35 <mattdm> i
15:39:47 <mattdm> #undo
15:39:47 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Link object at 0x7fe565ff1b10>
15:39:50 <mattdm> #link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/council-discuss@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/3HKTJMWOU7RPVOXCXID22GPTFYOE3CAI/
15:40:00 <langdon> mattdm: i think your argument of merge with modularity is kinda rough.. if you think about it *everything* in fedora is about packager workflow.. you could easily make the same argument for lifecycles+workflow+modularity
15:40:38 <mattdm> langdon: I look forward to seeing proposal for new modularity objective then :)
15:40:42 <dgilmore> I would like to see it move things forward to a mostly automated packagr workflow, not just get things back to how they were before pkgdb went away
15:40:43 * contyk wonders why it didn't land in his inbox, at all
15:41:08 <mattdm> dgilmore++
15:41:08 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for ausil changed to 2 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
15:41:23 <mattdm> yes -- ties in with dperpeet's work, and the "source git" proposal
15:41:26 <langdon> dgilmore: +1
15:41:37 <mattdm> everyone put this feedback on the list message
15:42:33 <mattdm> okay, and with that, I'm gonna end the meeting
15:42:40 <mattdm> so langdon can go to his next one
15:42:50 <dgilmore> cheers mattdm
15:42:51 <mattdm> and so i can grab some breakfast before bcotton's next meeting
15:42:55 <mattdm> #endmeeting