17:00:31 <geppetto> #startmeeting fpc
17:00:31 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Feb 18 17:00:31 2016 UTC.  The chair is geppetto. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:31 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:31 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fpc'
17:00:31 <geppetto> #meetingname fpc
17:00:31 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fpc'
17:00:31 <geppetto> #topic Roll Call
17:00:48 <geppetto> geppetto limburgher mbooth orionp racor Rathann SmootherFr0gZ tibbs|w tomspur: FPC ping
17:00:56 <orionp> hello
17:00:56 <mbooth> Hi
17:00:57 * SmootherFrOgZ here
17:01:05 <smdeep> .hello smdeep
17:01:06 <geppetto> #chair orionp
17:01:06 <zodbot> Current chairs: geppetto orionp
17:01:06 <zodbot> smdeep: smdeep 'Sudeep Mukherjee' <smdeep@gmail.com>
17:01:09 <geppetto> #chair mbooth
17:01:09 <zodbot> Current chairs: geppetto mbooth orionp
17:01:11 <geppetto> #chair SmootherFrOgZ
17:01:11 <zodbot> Current chairs: SmootherFrOgZ geppetto mbooth orionp
17:01:57 * Rathann here
17:02:20 <geppetto> #chair Rathann
17:02:20 <zodbot> Current chairs: Rathann SmootherFrOgZ geppetto mbooth orionp
17:02:50 <geppetto> tibbs: You here?
17:03:33 <geppetto> #chair racor
17:03:33 <zodbot> Current chairs: Rathann SmootherFrOgZ geppetto mbooth orionp racor
17:05:16 <geppetto> Ok, let's get started
17:05:20 <geppetto> #topic Schedule
17:05:22 <geppetto> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/packaging@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/VDENG5YJBCQ7MTPOKMTFLUAVOAJSXL33/
17:05:29 <geppetto> #topic #597 php Guidelines update
17:05:32 <geppetto> .fpc 597
17:05:33 <zodbot> geppetto: #597 (php Guidelines update) – fpc - https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/597
17:05:55 <orionp> +1
17:05:59 * RemiFedora here if question
17:06:46 <geppetto> +1 from me, and tibbs too
17:07:03 <SmootherFrOgZ> +1 from me
17:07:14 <tibbs|w> Hey, folks.
17:07:23 <SmootherFrOgZ> tibbs|w: hey you
17:07:42 <geppetto> #chair tibbs
17:07:42 <zodbot> Current chairs: Rathann SmootherFrOgZ geppetto mbooth orionp racor tibbs
17:07:46 <geppetto> Hey there
17:07:47 <tibbs|w> Pretty sure I +1'd the PHP stuff already.
17:07:51 * geppetto nods
17:08:22 <Rathann> +1 from me
17:08:47 <geppetto> Ok, that's +5
17:09:14 <geppetto> mbooth: racor: want to vote for the record?
17:09:19 <mbooth> +1
17:10:16 <racor> 0, I don't feel knowledgeable enough to vote
17:10:26 <geppetto> #action php Guidelines update, for file triggers (+1:6, 0:1, -1:0)
17:10:40 <geppetto> #topic #598 introduce pyp2rpm tool on Packaging:Python page
17:10:44 <geppetto> .fpc 598
17:10:45 <zodbot> geppetto: #598 (introduce pyp2rpm tool on Packaging:Python page) – fpc - https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/598
17:10:55 <mbukatov> draft author here
17:11:15 <geppetto> Draft:  ​https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Marbu/PackagingPythonGuidelines
17:12:04 <tibbs|w> As I've voiced in the ticket, I don't think this is a particularly good idea.
17:12:09 <orionp> I'm not sure I'm happy about recommending using a packaging tool.  I've also never used pyp2rpm
17:12:40 <geppetto> mbooth: Is this the diff? https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=User%3AMarbu%2FPackagingPythonGuidelines&diff=435548&oldid=433940
17:13:24 <geppetto> this is just a simple way to get started, right?
17:13:29 <Rathann> mbukatov:  TODO-python-packaging-quickstart wiki page doesn't exist
17:13:34 <geppetto> Like cpan2spec or whatever?
17:13:34 <mbooth> geppetto: I haven't read it yet
17:13:34 <orionp> As a comparison - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Perl#cpanspec
17:13:36 <Rathann> and it's linked to
17:13:39 <SmootherFrOgZ> geppetto: yes
17:13:49 <geppetto> mbukatov: Is this the diff? https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=User%3AMarbu%2FPackagingPythonGuidelines&diff=435548&oldid=433940
17:13:56 <geppetto> mbooth: wrong mb tab complete
17:13:58 <mbukatov> Rathann: yes, I haven't done this yet
17:14:08 <SmootherFrOgZ> not sure this really has to do with guideline
17:14:26 <mbukatov> geppetto: yes, including the category and warning note
17:14:27 <racor> Based on the experience with cpanspec (Perl) I am -1 on the proposal. Mentioning is OK, but not in first place.
17:16:09 <tibbs|w> Plus, really, we have no idea at all if that tool actually provides guideline-compliant specs.  Or if it will change in line with the guidelines.
17:16:25 <tibbs|w> The guideline pages really shouldn't be a packaging HOWTO.  They're too long as it is.
17:17:24 <mbukatov> ok, could I address your concerns by rewording the section somehow?
17:18:02 <geppetto> I guess everyone would be happy if it looked more like the perl one?
17:18:07 <tibbs|w> Not mine.
17:18:14 <tibbs|w> And I'd prefer that the perl one go as well.
17:18:18 <geppetto> ok
17:18:33 <Rathann> tibbs|w has a point
17:18:51 <orionp> pyp2rpm is mentioned here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Python#Packaging_Quickstart
17:18:53 <tibbs|w> In any case, without that "TODO-python-packaging-quickstart" document I think this whole discussion is premature in any case.
17:18:56 <orionp> that seems appropriate
17:19:27 <geppetto> orionp: Fair enough
17:19:48 <tibbs|w> I think it would be great if someone arranged some sort of packaging howto hierarchy in the wiki that shadowed the guidelines but had more instructional content.
17:20:13 <tibbs|w> But I really don't want to have to gate guidelines changes on changes to those documents, or spec generation tools or anything like that.
17:20:19 <geppetto> mbukatov: Ok, did you want us to come back and look at "TODO-python-packaging-quickstart" in a week or two, or let you open a new ticket?
17:20:59 <tibbs|w> If a set of documents existed, I would certainly be for adding a note on the main guidelines page referencing it.
17:21:11 <tibbs|w> But I really don't think this stuff needs to be in every guideline page.
17:21:15 <Rathann> +1 to tibbs|w idea
17:21:19 <mbukatov> geppetto: let the ticket open, I would like to make changes based on your input including the todo-quickstart document
17:21:30 <geppetto> ok
17:22:07 <mbukatov> so basically you say that pyp2rpm tool should not be mentioned at all
17:22:12 <geppetto> #info There are references in https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Python#Packaging_Quickstart
17:22:50 <mbooth> mbukatov: Well, it's already mentioned on the python sig page, no? What extra does amending the guidelines get us?
17:22:55 <geppetto> #action Against the idea of including lots of references to tools in the main pages, but maybe a more organizational change would work. Also waiting on "TODO-python-packaging-quickstart" page.
17:23:06 <tibbs|w> I think any howto kind of information belongs elsewhere, and we should reference the collection of that information once in the guideline.
17:23:40 * mbukatov tries to understand what changes needs to be done to the draft
17:23:49 <tibbs|w> So, whip up a master packaging howto page with links to the various resources in the wiki, and I'll draft a section to add to the main guidelines.
17:24:27 <mbukatov> so if I remove the pyp2rpm paragraph, and leave initial section, link to will be quickstart and link to python sig page - would that be ok
17:24:37 <tibbs|w> Not to me, sorry.
17:25:00 <tibbs|w> My proposal:
17:25:04 <tibbs|w> 1) Drop this draft entirely
17:25:19 <tibbs|w> 2) Someone whips up a packaging howto page with useful links to all of this info.
17:25:31 <Rathann> tibbs|w: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_create_an_RPM_package <- is that what you mean as a start page?
17:25:32 <tibbs|w> 3) I draft a section to add to the main guidelines which points to this page.
17:25:46 <tibbs|w> Rathann: Perhaps; I haven't read that page in a while.
17:26:01 <tibbs|w> It's probably a bit long, and so it's something that should be linked from some master page.
17:26:56 <mbukatov> ok, that could work
17:26:56 <tibbs|w> The master page can get fleshed out over time.  We can even move some howto information from the guidelines eventually.
17:27:24 <tibbs|w> I just don't have time to write that master page right now, so if someone else does it I can take care of the rest.
17:27:36 <mbukatov> I will try to draft a python quickstart page for the next week
17:28:03 <mbukatov> that said, there is one thing left from my draft:
17:28:17 <mbukatov> headline: Python Packaging Guidelines
17:28:30 <mbukatov> and the 1st line starting: This page documents the guidelines and conventions ...
17:29:16 <tibbs|w> I don't see anything there that isn't either obvious or covered by the main guidelines page.
17:29:32 <mbukatov> my point is that this page is 1st google result for "python packaging fedora" and the fact that it's a guideline is hidden in the bottom
17:29:35 <tibbs|w> You mean the paragraph beginning "This page documents...."
17:29:46 <mbukatov> yes
17:30:01 <tibbs|w> It's a Fedora Python packaging guideline; of course it documents the guidelines for Python packaging in Fedora.
17:30:37 <tibbs|w> I mean, if people really think we need to say that....
17:31:11 <tibbs|w> Then wouldn't just a header "Fedora Python Packaging Guidelines"  instead of just "Packaging:Python" do the trick?
17:31:32 <geppetto> Seems like it to me
17:31:58 <mbukatov> yes, that would work as well
17:32:22 <geppetto> tibbs: You want to just tweak that?
17:32:34 <tibbs|w> To put things in perspective, if a guideline page is more than two or three screenfulls on my monitor with my font (which I know is a pointless metric) not including contents and sample spec then it's too long.
17:32:44 <tibbs|w> And I should collapse the sample spec, too.
17:32:55 <tibbs|w> geppetto: Yeah, I'll figure out how to do that in wikinoise.
17:33:01 <geppetto> #action Tweak page title due to google result
17:33:07 <geppetto> #undo
17:33:07 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: ACTION by geppetto at 17:33:01 : Tweak page title due to google result
17:33:10 <geppetto> #action tibbs Tweak page title due to google result
17:33:15 <geppetto> Ok
17:33:20 <geppetto> #topic #593 use RPM tags for langpacks description
17:33:27 <geppetto> .fpc 593
17:33:29 <zodbot> geppetto: #593 (use RPM tags for langpacks description) – fpc - https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/593
17:33:57 <tibbs|w> I'm still +1 here.
17:34:08 <geppetto> racor: mbooth orionp: Any one of you want to vote, the rest of us already have +1s
17:34:45 <geppetto> SmootherFrOgZ: You get to vote too :)
17:34:59 <orionp> I really haven't had time to look, but I can trust others here...
17:35:01 <racor> What do you want us to vote on? The weak deps or the package renamer part?
17:35:06 * SmootherFrOgZ was reading
17:35:11 <SmootherFrOgZ> +1
17:35:22 <geppetto> Use RPM tags for langpacks (+1:4, 0:0, -1:0)
17:35:33 <tibbs|w> racor: Which package renamer part did you mean?
17:35:41 <tibbs|w> The part where it says that they don't need to be renamed?
17:35:52 <paragan> racor, we are not renaming packages
17:35:56 <geppetto> ok, that's +5
17:35:57 <racor> rename all "lang" packs into *-langpack
17:36:11 <paragan> no its for newly added packages in fedora only
17:36:24 <racor> OK, then that on weak deps
17:38:01 <orionp> It's using %define, not %global
17:38:08 <racor> -1, silhan copr did not provide sufficent testing. Experience with weak deps/dnf already found in rawhide communicated the experience this all premature and not ready.
17:38:35 <tibbs|w> orionp: It's a parameterized macro, isn't it?
17:39:00 <orionp> Is that the need then?  I'm never sure...
17:39:08 <tibbs|w> Can't %global parameterized macros.
17:39:19 <tibbs|w> Obviously you don't want them expanded at the time of definition.
17:39:30 <orionp> Is that going into a macros package somewhere?
17:39:59 <tibbs|w> The problem is that it's not generic.
17:40:16 <tibbs|w> That macro is in that spec as a specific example of what that package needs.
17:40:45 <tibbs|w> My argument is that if they have any applicability to more than one package then they really should be stuck in a macro file.
17:40:50 <tibbs|w> But I can work on that over time.
17:42:15 <orionp> What's going to own  %{_datadir}/pear-data/Horde_Perms/locale/%{1} ?
17:42:28 <tibbs|w> When writing this up I would probably make that a bit clearer by augmenting the final sentenct before the snippet to indicate that the definition of the macro is specific to the way that piece of software stores its language files.
17:42:39 <tibbs|w> orionp: It's supposed to be owned in %files later.
17:42:58 <tibbs|w> The example shows that, doesn't it?
17:43:22 <tibbs|w> Just under "Suppose you have a package with the following spec file"
17:43:37 <orionp> %{_datadir}/pear-data/Horde_Perms/locale is owned, but not the language subdirs
17:43:59 <orionp> also, there is "locales" and "locale"
17:44:00 <tibbs|w> Sure it is.
17:44:11 <tibbs|w> That line isn't %dir, it's a recursive ownership.
17:44:29 <tibbs|w> Oh, crap, never mind.
17:44:43 <orionp> so then duplicate files?
17:44:46 <tibbs|w> Yeah, if you look at it that way, things do become a bit confusing.
17:45:01 <tibbs|w> That example really isn't well-written.
17:45:11 <tibbs|w> I can take a pass at it to try to make it understandable.
17:45:46 <tibbs|w> Basically it says that you're supposed to remove all of the text from the first snippet and replace it with the stuff in the second.
17:45:57 <orionp> Seems like the file entry in the macro should just be %{_datadir}/pear-data/Horde_Perms/locale/%{1}
17:45:59 <tibbs|w> But then that leaves unowned directories, though that's pretty simple.
17:46:06 <tibbs|w> Well, simple to gix.
17:46:22 <tibbs|w> I would have to look at the actual package, I think.
17:47:11 <paragan> we have this implemented now in tesseract package
17:47:13 <paragan> http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/cgit/rpms/tesseract.git/plain/tesseract.spec
17:47:22 <paragan> I mean weak deps
17:47:28 <tibbs|w> That did already have its custom macro stuff.
17:47:41 <tibbs|w> paragan: Do you have a list of packages which you believe would need this?
17:48:10 <tibbs|w> I would (in my copious spare time) like to see if there is any commonality in those packages which could be pulled out into generic macros.
17:48:29 <paragan> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N/Langpacks/BasePackages
17:49:13 <tibbs|w> I'll look at it one day.
17:49:21 <paragan> sure thanks
17:49:37 <tibbs|w> Still embroiled in EPEL macros.
17:50:30 <geppetto> ok, Well this is still at +5/0/-1 so far … anyone want to change votes, or say anything?
17:50:44 <geppetto> If not then I'll pass it in a couple of minutes
17:51:50 <mbooth> Eh, +1 from me too
17:52:15 <tibbs|w> I will try to do some clarification as part of the writeup as I usually do, but if anyone objects to any of that then let me know.  I will also fix that macro to not leave unowned dirs.
17:52:24 <mbooth> I look forward to trying it with my package
17:52:34 <geppetto> #action use RPM tags for langpacks description (+1:6, 0:1, -1:1)
17:52:36 <tibbs|w> paragan: Once I've written it up, please have a close look.
17:52:40 <geppetto> tibbs: Both things are fine with me
17:52:47 <paragan> tibbs|w, sure I will
17:52:51 <geppetto> #topic #591 Description of filtering macros in Perl is outdated
17:52:51 <tibbs|w> That's kind of become the usual way I do things these days.
17:52:55 <geppetto> .fpc 591
17:52:57 <zodbot> geppetto: #591 (Description of filtering macros in Packaging:AutoProvidesAndRequiresFiltering#Perl is outdated) – fpc - https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/591
17:53:11 <tibbs|w> Otherwise the tickets bounce between meetings for way too long.
17:53:15 <geppetto> Do we have a final change for perl yet?
17:53:25 <tibbs|w> I don't think there was any movement at all.
17:53:35 <geppetto> ok
17:53:47 <geppetto> #topic Open floor
17:53:55 <tibbs|w> Honestly I've lost the context on that ticket.
17:54:09 <tibbs|w> racor is probably the most familiar with the perl filtering stuff.
17:54:10 <geppetto> tibbs: auto requires filtering
17:54:22 <tibbs|w> geppetto: I mean that the details are all swapped out now.
17:54:30 * geppetto nods
17:54:36 <orionp> One problem is that the update perl filter is not in EPEL
17:54:58 <tibbs|w> orionp: Have you done any investigation to see if it's possible to have it there?
17:55:16 <tibbs|w> I seem to recall that the better filtering stuff wasn't done in RPM macros but was implemented further down.
17:55:20 <orionp> tibbs|w: I just started looking, but it looks like there may be rpm changes as well
17:55:45 <tibbs|w> Still, I thought %autosetup was more than macros but it turns out that it isn't.
17:56:43 <orionp> but with the right understanding, it should be possible
17:56:59 <tibbs|w> Could be.  Maybe even just something close would be good enough.
17:58:42 <tibbs|w> Anyway, I guess that's something we can play with.
17:59:01 <tibbs|w> geppetto: Will you ping them in the ticket (591) or should I?
18:00:22 <geppetto> I can do it
18:00:46 <geppetto> #topic #591 Description of filtering macros in Perl is outdated
18:00:50 <tibbs|w> On a happier note, I actually did all of the writeups and made the announcemt.
18:01:14 <geppetto> #action Still need final change for perl.
18:01:21 <geppetto> #topic Open floor
18:01:24 <geppetto> Cool
18:01:48 <tibbs|w> There was one question, though.
18:01:57 <racor> tibbs|w: Sorry, was AFK
18:01:57 <geppetto> What was that?
18:02:03 <tibbs|w> On 567, what was I supposed to announce?
18:02:08 <tibbs|w> https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/567
18:02:11 <geppetto> .fpc 567
18:02:16 <zodbot> geppetto: #567 (Packaging Python 3 applications and modules for EPEL 7+) – fpc - https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/567
18:02:54 <tibbs|w> orionp: do you remember what I was supposed to do with that ticket?
18:03:20 <geppetto> tibbs: Says orionp had an EPEL7 section
18:03:43 <tibbs|w> There are so many links and diffs and such.
18:04:06 <tibbs|w> My fault for waiting too long and losing the context.
18:04:14 <geppetto> tibbs: https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/567#comment:10
18:04:31 <tibbs|w> Right, but there's a lot in that diff.
18:05:10 <orionp> yeah, it's a mess.   I  think we were going to link to the epel guidelines, but even those aren't right yet
18:05:25 <tibbs|w> Right, so I'll just hold off on that.
18:05:34 <tibbs|w> Note that I did just go ahead and add this to the main guidelines:
18:05:53 <tibbs|w> ... too many damn guidelines....
18:05:58 <tibbs|w> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Guidelines#Packaging_for_EPEL
18:06:18 <Rathann> that's fine, tibbs|w
18:06:23 <tibbs|w> Crap, my wikinoise there was wrong.  Well, I'll fix that.
18:06:25 <geppetto> So according to the logs, it's the last EPEL7 section of https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=PackagingDrafts%3APython&diff=cur&oldid=422445
18:07:54 <orionp> rigtht, but we shouldn't link to a draft, and should the epel guidelines be in Packaging: or EPEL: ?
18:08:09 <tibbs|w> the epel guidelines should be under EPEL (because that makes the most sense).
18:08:12 <geppetto> EPEL: I'd guess
18:08:30 <orionp> Okay, I'll work on getting a page there..
18:08:40 <tibbs|w> We can revisit when that's done but really, why don't we just make it so that things aren't a bit different?
18:08:56 <tibbs|w> I guess that's the point of those fancy python macros we were writing.
18:09:23 <tibbs|w> I'm about done with the hard part of the EPEL stuff and I've learned more tricks so I can get back to them soon.
18:12:03 <geppetto> Ok, anything else?
18:12:13 <geppetto> If not I'll close in the next couple of minutes
18:12:21 <geppetto> And see you all next week :)
18:12:24 <tibbs|w> I'm good.
18:12:28 <Rathann> not really an agenda item, but is anyone from the FPC coming to Flock this year?
18:12:29 <orionp> later
18:12:38 <tibbs|w> I should be at flock.
18:12:40 <geppetto> In Poland?
18:12:48 <Rathann> I'm obviously coming since it's in my home country :D
18:12:58 <Rathann> yes, geppetto
18:13:09 <geppetto> not as far as I know
18:13:17 <tibbs|w> Somehow it magically worked out.  I was due to fly from Amsterdam back to Houston on the 1st.  So I'll just divert.
18:13:30 <tibbs|w> Will have Jennifer with me and her goddaughter.
18:13:35 <Rathann> that's excellent news, tibbs|w :)
18:13:40 <Rathann> I'm also bringing my family
18:13:50 <geppetto> cool
18:13:51 <tibbs|w> Rathann: Can I bug you if I need to deal with the hotel?
18:13:57 <Rathann> tibbs|w: sure
18:14:54 <tibbs|w> We have Polish friends but they're from Warsaw and live either in Malmö or way up in Norway so they can't be too much help.
18:15:35 <tibbs|w> geppetto: Surely you can get RH to pay for some airfare....
18:15:59 <tibbs|w> They're talking about doing fewer talks and more "work sessions" so there might be some opportunities for trying to clean up packaging.
18:16:28 <geppetto> tibbs: Well I went to devconf, and am still recovering from that
18:16:43 <geppetto> RH doesn't have a huge travel budget
18:16:50 <tibbs|w> With flock tacked on I'll be away from home for over a month.
18:16:59 <geppetto> ouch
18:17:04 <tibbs|w> Not sure how I'll handle that.
18:17:45 <tibbs|w> We're starting pretty far up in Norway and moving south until we hit Oslo, then to Amsterdam (renting a houseboat of all things) and then to Krakow.
18:18:42 <tibbs|w> Anyway, I guess this is super offtopic, but to make it on topic, perhaps we should think about whether we can do some sort of packaging sprint.
18:19:25 <tibbs|w> Rathann: I was trying to see if I could get a suite for the hotel, but they only have four and there's no pricing info.
18:19:35 <tibbs|w> The hotel only has ~160 rooms total.
18:20:26 <tibbs|w> And they only have seven pairs of adjoining rooms.  I could do that and rent out the extra bed, though that might be weird.
18:22:42 <geppetto> weird
18:23:34 <geppetto> Ok, see you all next week.
18:23:37 <geppetto> Thanks for coming
18:23:40 <geppetto> #endmeeting