18:00:52 <rbergeron> #startmeeting Fedora Board
18:00:52 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Apr  4 18:00:52 2013 UTC.  The chair is rbergeron. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:52 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:01:12 <misc> o/
18:01:15 <rbergeron> #meetingname Fedora Board
18:01:15 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_board'
18:01:36 <rbergeron> my keyboard is being evil today. I apologize in advance for what will inevitably look like idiocy.
18:01:45 <rbergeron> #topic Roll Call
18:01:49 <rbergeron> Who's about?
18:01:50 <rdieter> hola
18:01:57 <misc> i am here
18:02:00 * Sparks is here
18:02:07 <jreznik> hey, /me is here
18:02:22 <rbergeron> #chair misc sparks jreznik
18:02:22 <zodbot> Current chairs: jreznik misc rbergeron sparks
18:02:32 <gholms> Hello, world!
18:02:43 <StillBob> rbergeron: You said 18:00 UTC and it is that now...
18:02:46 <inode0> Hello, userbase!
18:03:00 <rbergeron> #info pbrobinson apologizes for his inability to attend today due to $dayjob fires
18:03:07 <rbergeron> StillBob: see, i'm already being an idiot.
18:03:31 <rbergeron> What did I actually say? /me goes to look. All i know is: 11 my time. I'm at -7.
18:03:41 <rbergeron> so I guess that is 18:00.
18:03:53 <jreznik> yep, 18 UTC = 20 CEST
18:03:59 <rbergeron> #chair gholms inode0
18:03:59 <zodbot> Current chairs: gholms inode0 jreznik misc rbergeron sparks
18:04:04 <rbergeron> inode0: lulz.
18:05:09 <rbergeron> StillBob: I continue to apologize for my idiocy, for that and in advance :D
18:05:47 <rbergeron> Okay, looks like we have humans on deck. Hooray humans. And it appears that we have a few folks popping into the channel as well to observe/participate, so yay for that.
18:05:52 <rbergeron> #topic Agenda
18:05:53 * mattdm waves
18:06:19 <rbergeron> So as posted on board mailing list, and in my blog like 12 seconds ago, and as discussed in last week's meeting....
18:06:32 <rbergeron> #info Today's major topic is: User Base Definition
18:06:43 * jreznik thinks we should set meeting format (how do we want it look like) as we were talking before going to any other business
18:07:12 <rbergeron> #link http://wordshack.wordpress.com/2013/04/04/board-meeting-topic-for-the-day-user-base-aka-target-audience/
18:07:16 <jreznik> especially for that big topic where we want more than just board
18:07:41 <rbergeron> There are some useful links in there around descriptions.
18:08:10 <rbergeron> jreznik: accepting suggestions, I don't want to spend a whole meeting figuring out meeting format. :)
18:08:18 <rbergeron> Honestly: Interesting topics get people here.
18:08:21 <rbergeron> Or things they are pissed off about.
18:08:27 * gholms nods
18:08:43 <rbergeron> I hope we try to shy away from inducing the latter. :)
18:09:17 <jreznik> as I said - I'd really like to see this meeting more as community with time for Board issues, than Board meeting with a short community Q/A... but with interesting topic, let's see
18:09:40 <dan408> +1 jreznik
18:10:01 <inode0> Does anyone not on the board want to discuss anything with the board right now?
18:10:19 <jreznik> maybe just avoiding "Board" in meeting name and calling it community would help, not to scare people it's not their's business to speak etc...
18:10:45 * vwbusguy is interested on the "user base" discussion but has no specific points to bring up
18:10:46 * jreznik would like to give short status update aka where we are regarding alpha
18:10:46 <dan408> inode0: let me think for open floor
18:10:47 <misc> jreznik: so community open floor, on a regular basis ?
18:10:59 <misc> jreznik: we could do it without having a meeting with everybody too
18:11:10 <misc> ( and do it more often )
18:11:10 <jreznik> misc: moderated one
18:11:33 <inode0> We tend to waste a lot of time waiting for stuff that doesn't happen - let's just get to work!? :)
18:11:36 <rbergeron> How about this: Jreznik: are you willing to bring up meeting format on the board mailing list?
18:11:59 <jreznik> rbergeron: yep, I will (and I partially already did, without feedback ;-)
18:12:02 <rbergeron> I think we should move it there. we have 49 minutes, and I suspect we will have plenty of fodder for discussion today.
18:12:35 <rbergeron> People are popping in for this meeting, and we've had "open Q&A" on board agendas forever with little interaction.
18:12:41 <rbergeron> Or as formerly called, "office hours"
18:12:44 <rbergeron> So.
18:12:56 <gholms> rbergeron: +1
18:12:57 <rbergeron> Agenda is $hottopic. Basically. :)
18:13:17 <rbergeron> #action jreznik to poke for further feedback on board mailing list re: board meeting format, inducing more participation.
18:13:30 <rbergeron> #topic User Base Discussion
18:13:41 <rbergeron> Before we dive in I'd like to say a few things sort of... to frame the discussion?
18:13:45 <dan408> rbergeron: that would be cool, like a #fedora-board channel with office hours, and maybe a "suggestion box" type of thing
18:13:51 <misc> rbergeron: got for it :)
18:14:03 <rbergeron> Just to... well, not avoid fires, but you know, make sure they are lit in an organized fashion. :)
18:14:13 <rdieter> dan408: #fedora-advisory-board is essentially that
18:14:14 <gholms> dan408: We're halfway there already:  join #fedora-advisory-board.
18:14:18 <rbergeron> Should they be lit.
18:14:18 <rdieter> jinx
18:14:20 <Sparks> dan408: We already hang out in #fedora-advisory-board
18:14:21 <dan408> thanks did not know about that
18:14:23 <jreznik> rbergeron: yep, we need format - any ideas?
18:14:25 * inode0 points dan408 at #fedora-advisory-board - you are welcome all the time
18:14:30 <dan408> +4
18:14:40 <rbergeron> #info FYI, there is a #fedora-advisory-board channel where anyone is welcome to hang out.
18:14:44 * dan408 lurks
18:14:46 <rbergeron> Heh.
18:14:51 <rbergeron> So:
18:15:19 <rbergeron> #info Today's meeting is not going to involve "make a decision," and I suspect that "timeline for a decision" will probably be omething we need to take up on the mailing list.
18:15:48 <rbergeron> #info If you have not read what the user base definition is, or aren't familiar with it, please read it before having a spherical cow, man.
18:16:03 <rbergeron> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_base
18:16:28 <rbergeron> If you are unfamiliar with the mission, vision, and all the other stuff written about what we do and why we're here, that is probably useful for you to know about as well.
18:16:46 <rbergeron> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Overview
18:17:02 <dan408> dont you think that's a little dated?
18:17:23 <inode0> We are here to discuss that
18:17:42 <rbergeron> dan408: that's sort of the topic of discussion, eh? :)
18:17:49 <rdieter> yay progress
18:17:49 <misc> well, the first step would be to see if we want to revise everything, or just some part
18:18:12 <dan408> i think over all it's good but i'd like to add "newbie" to the list
18:18:21 <rbergeron> There are a few things we can discuss:
18:18:34 <rbergeron> If the underlying assumptions about the user base continue to hold true, AS DEFINED
18:18:45 <rbergeron> (note that "user base" is not "as we are" but more "as we wish to be")
18:19:06 * inode0 notes that user base is in reference to the default offering which is in reference to the gnome live desktop
18:19:08 <rbergeron> If what we produce is appropriate to meet that user base, and if that can be changed.
18:19:32 <rbergeron> If the mission/vision still hold true.
18:19:38 <jreznik> inode0: and that leads to the question - are we able to steer it or are we completely in a position to follow our upstreams?
18:20:02 <mattdm> We should have a user base statement of our own, and select upstreams that fit it.
18:20:02 <inode0> that matters if we define Fedora as the the gnome live desktop or if we define Fedora as something larger than that
18:20:07 <rbergeron> I think it might be useful to discuss "what we are actually producing" and whether or not that is doing anything for the user base "as defined"
18:20:27 <dan408> we had about a 100 thread long discussion about this on the devel list for the default desktop
18:20:34 <misc> inode0: we could also have more than 1 user base, for more than 1 offer ?
18:20:35 <dan408> there are 8 or 9 desktops in fedora
18:20:51 <dan408> time to move on
18:20:54 <AndyP> seems odd that it describes a user base character-wise rather than a target set of use cases
18:21:01 <inode0> we do now, each spin has one even if it is implicit
18:21:21 <rbergeron> And if we have too much noise I will start asking people to raise their IRC hands or we will have a rambling discussion that will go nowhere. :)
18:21:29 <vwbusguy> :-)
18:21:46 <vwbusguy> The user base we want is contributors
18:21:48 <vwbusguy> IMO
18:21:54 <gregdek> +1 to vwbusguy
18:21:59 <mitr> AndyP: We'd need thousands of use cases, and that's only to cover a single desktop
18:22:24 <rbergeron> So rather than "what's freaking wrong" because we all have opinions...
18:22:30 <dan408> vwbusguy: contributors are also users. you can't get contributors without users.
18:22:32 <rdieter> vwbusguy: does http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_base_-_likely_collaborator fit, or need tweaking?
18:22:38 <dan408> chicken + egg.
18:22:42 <rbergeron> rdieter: you are totally going in the right direction.
18:22:42 * inode0 will slow down but thinks redefining Fedora to be something other than a live desktop is the correct place to start as what that is defined to be will guide the rest of this
18:22:49 <mitr> I'll just say it out loud: We have a fair number of contributors that don't care about the user base as stated, and just ignore the wiki if htey even know it exists.
18:23:12 <dan408> +1 mitr
18:23:15 <vwbusguy> rdieter, nice
18:23:19 <rbergeron> I think we *all* want Fedora to have more contributors.
18:23:28 <Viking-Ice> kinda goes without saying that each sub community is in charge defining it's target audience ofcourse many sub community might be competing for the same target audience ( like the *DE are doing )
18:23:31 <rdieter> because that's already linked in our User_Base document (1 of 4)
18:23:32 <AndyP> mitr: but you don't have to spec out every user, just every core feature. speccing out users limits your userbase
18:23:38 <rbergeron> I don' tknow that the "likely collaborator" definition still fits.
18:23:41 * jreznik likes current definition, it's pretty generic but seems does not fit our current "default" offering
18:24:06 <vwbusguy> rdieter, For a quick glance, it looks good.  I'll update it if I can think of anything later
18:24:39 <rbergeron> And if those likely collaborators are as likely to collaborate as a group that might be more targeted.
18:24:41 <rdieter> gregdek: is that also what you had in mind, or ... does it need narrowing or broadening ?
18:24:42 * satellit it would be nice if anaconda did not start desktop in main hub but let user choose his DE
18:24:43 <rbergeron> I'll note:
18:24:49 <rbergeron> This was written in 2010.
18:24:52 <rbergeron> Three years ago.
18:24:58 <rdieter> satellit: baby steps
18:25:06 <vwbusguy> the problem with "user" is that it simply means that they use Fedora for something, which is why we have so many packages.  Starting from there along does little in terms of "defaults"
18:25:07 <dan408> again, contributors don't appear out of nowhere. is there a book on fedora i can read? do i install fedora and then start reading every wiki page and become a contributor? there is no clearly defined path on a) how to become a contributor and b) how to plan to attract contributors c) a good place for contributors to start to learn the fedora beauracracy.
18:25:11 <rbergeron> Can anyone point out what has changed in teh past 3 years that might make this list more or less relevant?
18:25:21 <gholms> rbergeron: Cloud.
18:25:26 * j_dulaney notes that when he joined the project three years ago, he wasn't looking at user base docs or the like
18:25:53 <rbergeron> #info List of things that have changed in 3 years since "likely collaborators" was written: Cloud.
18:25:54 <mattrose> rbergeron: also the explosion of different DEs in the past 3 years
18:26:01 <gregdek> rdieter: looks sensible to me.
18:26:01 <rbergeron> #info explosion of different DEs.
18:26:03 <brunowolff> I think we are seeing a potential set of crontributors who seem more interested in cloud images than desktops. These seem to be people who want involved with Fedora.
18:26:05 <misc> rbergeron: for now, i do not think something changed, but that's likely boiling frog issue, etc
18:26:06 <rbergeron> I will add:
18:26:14 <mitr> rbergeron: I don't know about the past 3 years, but I don't think that the idea of requireing web forums and not mailing lists will allow anyone to become a contributor to Fedora as it exists
18:26:18 <rbergeron> Github has gone from like 100k accounts to 3M users and 5M repositories.
18:26:26 <rbergeron> Are those folks likely collaborators who care about open source? I would say yes.
18:26:36 <brunowolff> s/people who want/people who we want/
18:26:39 <vwbusguy> dan408, basically, if I understand you right, you'd like Fedora to be more noob0friendly in hopes that they might grow into being contributors
18:26:47 <vwbusguy> *noob-friendly
18:26:49 <dan408> vwbusguy: yes. see ubuntu.
18:26:55 <rbergeron> ARM, raspberry pi, maker culture. Are those folks more likely collaborators more easily targeted? Possibly.
18:26:56 <dan408> or linuxmint
18:26:56 <vwbusguy> well, we're not Ubuntu
18:26:59 <misc> #info github rised, people who likely care about opensource
18:27:02 <dan408> I KNOW WE'RE NOT
18:27:08 <DiscordianUK> Thank goodness
18:27:10 * j_dulaney doesn't think Fedora should follow Ubuntu's path
18:27:13 <vwbusguy> dan408, so how would you do this differently in Fedora
18:27:21 <rbergeron> Do people still believe in "THE YEAR OF THE LINUX DESKTOP" ?
18:27:26 <dan408> make it easier to use and stop breaking it every release
18:27:28 <satellit> I am using a Rpi and test fedora remixes
18:27:33 * jreznik does not want to bash GNOME (you were warned) - but do we know the user base of current gnome and target audience and as it's our current default offering - does it match our?
18:27:34 <mattdm> rbergeron: yes. it was 2002.
18:27:34 <DiscordianUK> i do
18:27:34 <j_dulaney> rbergeron:  I don't
18:27:39 <vwbusguy> rbergeron, yeah, but it might be in the form of Android or ChromeOS
18:27:48 <andreasn> a question, is it a important mission of Fedora to spread free software to the masses?
18:27:58 <DiscordianUK> But I've used linux as my desktop since 1994
18:28:03 <misc> #info arm, maker, people extending the idea of free software and sharing on different topic
18:28:06 <mattrose> j_dulaney: ubuntu is not *all* bad, we should look at what they're doing right, doesn't mean we have to do the opposite
18:28:24 <jreznik> andreasn: for me - to spread free software and free culture - the second is imporant for me
18:28:27 <gregdek> What ubuntu used to do right, and does right no longer, is focus.
18:28:27 <dan408> +1 mattrose
18:28:35 <dan408> well
18:28:40 <dan408> what do you think linuxmint did?
18:28:41 <dan408> :)
18:28:42 <rbergeron> andreasn: Yes, But does that mean that Fedora has to be their desktop? Can Fedora be *on* their desktop? Can they use Fedora to develop with? Are we okay with our technology being used to spread open source culture, even if we aren't getting credit?
18:28:44 <jreznik> misc: yep, that's "free culture" world
18:28:58 <mattdm> andreasn" take a look at the mission statement. in fact, that IS the mission
18:29:00 <dan408> if linuxmint were yum based i would have been gone a long time ago
18:29:10 <rbergeron> Okay, halt: THIS IS NOT ABOUT UBUNTU, or wanting or wishing to be like ubuntu. We are not them.
18:29:11 <mattdm> producing a linux distro is just one of the projects we happen to undertake.
18:29:21 * j_dulaney also notes that he has used fluxbox for a DE for longer than he has been a contributor
18:29:30 <rbergeron> This is about making *us happy*, and having something that we think people want to contribute to.
18:29:31 <StillBob> At one point in time Fedora™ had something to do with the "hobbiest" and the "tinkerer"
18:29:31 <dan408> anyways
18:29:33 * j_dulaney was a user for several years prior to being a contributor
18:29:47 <StillBob> At that time the Fedora™ concept made sense
18:29:52 * mattrose is only a user of fedora
18:29:59 <rdieter> StillBob: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_base_-_voluntary_Linux_consumer
18:29:59 <rbergeron> Where *us* == people contributing, people who care, RIGHT NOW.
18:30:02 <DiscordianUK> Yes StillBob it was how we defined ourselves once
18:30:02 <vwbusguy> What I would think are potential goals are: Human readable documentation, reasonably self-explanatory defaults, and ability to run on the hardware users wish to run it on, FOSS drivers permitting
18:30:05 <rbergeron> mattrose: You are here. You are contributing. :)
18:30:06 <dan408> making it easier new users to adopt fedora, turns into more contributors down the road, stabilize the changes being made to fedora a little bit, i think that's what im trying to get at here
18:30:16 <andreasn> I was mostly curious in the context of target of likely collaborators as that is sometimes used as a bat for making things less non-hacker-friendly
18:30:30 <dan408> +1 vwbusguy
18:30:33 <rbergeron> Back to what else has changed: Anyone else have anything of note?
18:30:38 <vwbusguy> tablets
18:30:48 <misc> rbergeron: rise of social network and stuff like this ?
18:30:52 <dan408> arm team is working hard on that
18:30:57 <StillBob> I don't know that Fedora™ is still for that type of person, hell I question if the Fedora™ concept makes sense today at all on any level.
18:30:58 <gholms> rbergeron: Did you see my note?  Cloud.
18:30:59 <satellit> +1
18:30:59 <mattdm> rbergeron: centos and scientific linux have their acts together.
18:31:00 <rbergeron> Proliferation of tablets? Android being everywhere? Many people using macs while Linux still stays at a whopping 2 percent of the desktop/laptop market?
18:31:06 <mattrose> rbergeron: virtualization is much more prevalent
18:31:09 <rbergeron> gholms: yes, I info'd it.
18:31:17 <gholms> Sorry
18:31:21 <rbergeron> #info virtualization is much more prevalent
18:31:30 <DiscordianUK> I'd say fedora on tablets would be important
18:31:35 <vwbusguy> DiscordianUK, +1
18:31:35 <satellit> +1
18:31:38 <mattdm> -1
18:31:40 <rbergeron> guys: feel free to add info's on relevant points
18:31:48 <Viking-Ice> this is simple really we want people to participate. each sub community defines it's target audience and what's wrong with the current picture is we have default ( what ever it might be ) if the plan here is not to discuss dropping I doubt this meeting will lead to something useful
18:31:56 <gregdek> mattdm: you think Fedora on tablets is not at all important?
18:31:58 <jreznik> also please remember - we are distribution - and out there, there's a lot of places where to collaborat, probably more funnier with more credits - let's get these contribution in the way we know best - integration to the distribution
18:31:58 <mattdm> I think being the fifth-place also-ran on tablets is very uninteresting.
18:32:12 <vwbusguy> who cares about market share
18:32:16 <skvidal> mattdm: w'ere 5th place? HOLY CRAP
18:32:17 <vwbusguy> it's about user base
18:32:20 <mattrose> rbergeron: MacOSX still the easiest way to just get shit done, both as a user and a dev
18:32:24 <pandaconstantin> Hello everyone
18:32:27 <gregdek> Viking-Ice: a gigantic +1.
18:32:28 <mattdm> skvidal: that's a best-case asperational goal
18:32:29 <satellit> look at the Rapberry Pi and all of the people it brings in
18:32:38 <DiscordianUK> I disagree with mattrose
18:32:44 <mitr> Can we... step back a little and make sure that the board agrees whether it is attempting to define a vision for (existing or potential) contributors to follow, or to codify a vision that reflrects contributors we actually have?
18:32:48 <rbergeron> I think that Fedora has proven to be a valuable platform for people who want to take it an extend upon in HOWEVER THEY WISH to achieve their user ends.
18:32:49 <vwbusguy> I very much disagree with mattrose
18:32:57 <rbergeron> OLPC does this with the XOs and sugar.
18:33:12 <vwbusguy> rbergeron, +1
18:33:12 <rbergeron> Arista Networks uses Fedora for their EOS for their switch things.
18:33:12 <satellit> +1
18:33:25 <rbergeron> I will even tread lightly and say that Red Hat uses Fedora as the basis for RHEL.
18:33:33 <mattdm> You can *disagree* with mattrose but it's definitely representative of the world as it stands.
18:33:34 <gregdek> What I've always liked best about Fedora is the ability to empower sub-communities to do awesome things. I'd like to extend that ability.
18:33:37 <jreznik> rbergeron: OLPC and XO is in a different position - their's target is pretty clear, one hw...
18:34:04 <rbergeron> There are a lot fo people who use Fedora to buid things. ARM devices, etc., you name it
18:34:04 <satellit> soas is fedora as a spin with OLPC DE
18:34:06 <jreznik> mattdm: well, not sure it's true anymore
18:34:16 <gregdek> And I'd like to see a structure that allows sub-communities to identify common problems and work together on them.
18:34:16 <misc> gregdek: so serving as a basis for derivative, kinda like debian ?
18:34:17 <DiscordianUK> Not exacty there is windows for the OLPC etc
18:34:23 <StillBob> gregdek: that is what mde it cool for us tinkerers and hobbyists
18:34:29 <gregdek> misc: absolutely.
18:34:29 <vwbusguy> gregdek, +1 and +1
18:34:34 <brunowolff> The reuse is tied to our instance on using free software. With Ubunutu you have to worry about what you can reuse.
18:34:36 <mattdm> jreznik: it is absolutely true everywhere startup and cloud-focused that I look.
18:34:50 <mattdm> mac on the desktop, linux in the cloud
18:34:50 <rdieter> to that end probably need to drop http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_base_-_computer-friendly , sub communities and spins can pick that up
18:34:58 <vwbusguy> gregdek, and for what it's work bodhi and abrt have been tangible steps toward that goal
18:35:06 <gregdek> I now run Fedora in Vagrant on a Mac, fwiw.
18:35:19 <satellit> OLPC on the XO has a dual boot with fedora on some of it's software
18:35:21 <mattdm> rdieter: why not drop "newbie friendly" and have a sub-community pick that up?
18:35:26 <rbergeron> Rdieter brings up an important point, which I alluded to recently on te marketing list.
18:35:36 * j_dulaney is attending this here meeting with Fedora running on an ARM device
18:35:41 * DiscordianUK runs Fedora on my desktop and laptop as native systems
18:35:46 <gregdek> mattdm: +1. I think each sub-community would have to figure out its own definition of "noob-friendly".
18:35:47 <rdieter> mattdm: huh, newbie friendly is not a current User-base target. ?
18:35:48 <mattrose> if we want Fedora to be a base for other things, we have to be *way* more solid than we have been
18:36:10 * vwbusguy runs fedora at work for development, at home on desktops and laptops, and powering his media servers
18:36:14 <misc> brunowolff: in practice and given the number of derivative, not everybody care about that :/
18:36:21 <vwbusguy> I'd run it on my Nexus tablet if I could too :-)
18:36:24 <mitr> rdieter: "ability to use a text editor" is pretty much a newbie
18:36:26 <skvidal> rdieter: umm - if it is a target I think it's a failed target
18:36:27 <DiscordianUK> The chromebooks will become important
18:36:30 <rdieter> left with "potential collaborator/contributor" +1 keep
18:36:43 <DiscordianUK> I want Fedora on my Nook HD
18:36:49 <satellit> +1 on chromebook fedora
18:36:58 * dan408 notes there is a #fedora-arm channel
18:37:09 <rbergeron> rdieter: I think that there is a wide perception that "the user base" as defined is more or less perceived as "must be newb friendly" / lowest common denominator. Someone who can locate information on the internet to perhaps solve their problems.
18:37:09 <gregdek> DiscordianUK: then Fedora, as a goal, should make it easy for you to find people like you to make it happen.
18:37:23 <Viking-Ice> gregdek, agree the way forward is give more power to sub communities I'll even go so far as saying working torwards them being able to define and control their own release cycle
18:37:44 <DiscordianUK> I'm not a devel I lack too many clues for that
18:37:45 <rbergeron> Maybe that's not true. I mean, if nothing else, the user base information is not exactly, um, short and to the point.
18:37:49 <gregdek> Viking-Ice: tricky, that. Not fundamentally opposed, but coordination becomes a huge challenge.
18:37:56 <DiscordianUK> I am however a long term user
18:38:00 <rdieter> need to add something about "cloud" and/or "derivative distro maker", imo
18:38:22 <misc> gregdek: be easy to fork, be easy to integrate back
18:38:28 * vwbusguy points out that his grandmother runs Fedora on her laptop and she'd never used a computer before
18:38:34 <rdieter> or heck, even explicitly say "maker of fedora spins"
18:38:46 <gholms> gregdek: How does "Fedora as a platform" relate to the "user base" focus we have now?  Does it replace it?  Change it?
18:39:03 <rbergeron> What I do observe is this: With the definition *as it stands* - and how it defines the *default offering* - we are entirely desktop driven.
18:39:05 <Viking-Ice> gregdek, nobody said it was going to be easy but before we can do that we need a stable release synced core or baseos which they themselves can then build upon ;)
18:39:11 <gregdek> gholms: it puts user base focus on individual sub-communities. Where, in my opinion, it should be.
18:39:19 <StillBob> The brand dilution that Ubuntu has experienced is our future if we as a community do not protect the Core and Foundations.
18:39:25 <satellit> LTS distros?
18:39:31 <rbergeron> StillBob: I totally agree
18:39:34 <vwbusguy> gholms, I like the idea of vanilla android vs vendor forks as a model.  Vanilla Android is both user friendly and easily customizable for forking
18:39:34 <mattdm> as someone with experience in making derivative distributions, if we _really_ want to be friendly to that, that has _huge_ impact on how we do many things. (updates policy, for example)
18:39:47 <StillBob> "more spins" is not the answer
18:40:00 <StillBob> "Based on Fedora" is not the answer
18:40:07 <DiscordianUK> Coming back to the substanive question: the market such as it is perceives Fedora as Gnome-OS
18:40:22 <gholms> What about "on top of Fedora"?
18:40:23 <DiscordianUK> substantive
18:40:48 <rbergeron> DiscordianUK: I think that's probably largely fair to say
18:40:48 <vwbusguy> DiscordianUK, Yes.  We have a strong KDE and XFCE community and it seems like they kind of get the back seat with our labelling
18:40:59 <gregdek> vwbusguy: yep. Have for years.
18:41:02 <mattdm> DiscordianUK good question. I don't have any non-speculative answers; does anyone?
18:41:04 <rbergeron> (not saying it's correct, just saying I think that is the perception)
18:41:06 <dan408> and now a mate and cinnamon community
18:41:13 <dan408> and a sugar community
18:41:17 <DiscordianUK> We have many DEs
18:41:24 <dan408> right like i said earlier
18:41:27 <StillBob> Small groups splintering the community because of increased "power" to sub-committees I don't think will make fedora™ stronger or help define a userbase.
18:41:35 <misc> vwbusguy: they could just call it kedora or xedora :)
18:41:38 * satellit_ This is f19 Mate on my netbook
18:41:46 <mattdm> The largest perception I see in the wild (after a decade!) is "that's the RHEL beta test thing, right?"
18:41:47 <dan408> +1 satellit_ :)
18:41:54 <misc> vwbusguy: and basically, we could sahre the work, but split the communication ?
18:41:59 <DiscordianUK> If you look at the iRCops very few run Gnome
18:42:01 * inode0 again suggests that is one core problem - Fedora == linux desktop distribution
18:42:16 <rbergeron> yes. And we have many, many use cases that go beyond "as what's on mylaptop or desktop machine as the primary OS"
18:42:42 <rdieter> rbergeron: so... maybe instead of targeting a user-base, target use-cases ?
18:42:50 <gregdek> Sub-communities will include more than just DEs. Will also include cloud platforms, web development platform, mobile platform... and so on.
18:42:55 <misc> inode0: that kinda paradoxal, since people think that's RHEL beta, but few people use Fedora on server, and few people use RHEL on desktop
18:42:56 <vwbusguy> we're getting closer with the multi DVD but I liked that the OpenSuSE installer used to just give you the option of which to install with a screenshot and brief description
18:42:57 <jreznik> inode0: and is it a problem? do we want to be more? do we have contributors to be more? chicken - egg problem
18:43:00 <dan408> rdieter: target all humans
18:43:12 <jreznik> gregdek: we have such communities
18:43:17 <rbergeron> targeting the universe is the opposite of strategy 101.
18:43:25 <mattdm> what happens when sub-communities' needs clash? that's kind of the point of having one default target originally.
18:43:26 <brunowolff> We are short on packagers. I am not sure about other areas.
18:43:28 <gregdek> jreznik: sure do. are they happy?
18:43:28 <Viking-Ice> sub community also define their own target use case by their own existing nature
18:43:30 <rdieter> rbergeron: +1
18:43:39 <inode0> I want to do way more - that should be one end product so long as people are interesting in doing it
18:43:40 <misc> brunowolff: we will always be short on packager
18:43:47 <DiscordianUK> Let us do things well
18:43:48 <rbergeron> brunowolff: packaging sucks. Also: "hey, i'm one of 5M people on github, and we just get shit there."
18:43:48 <gregdek> mattdm: exactly. that's the kind of problem that the Fedora board should be regularly dealing with, and making decisions.
18:43:51 <mattdm> +1 rbergeron
18:43:58 <rbergeron> To those people: packaging really sucks.
18:44:05 <rbergeron> I do'n tknow that they understand the value.
18:44:09 <DiscordianUK> even if it means we can't do everything
18:44:10 <inode0> But we should attract more people who want to build other things too and we aren't because of our desktop focus.
18:44:12 <dan408> packaging sucks?
18:44:21 <rbergeron> I don't know that swinging the pendulum back is that easy.
18:44:35 <mizmo> rbergeron +1000000
18:44:39 <mattdm> dan408: it's pretty rare to meet a developer who loves packaging :)
18:44:48 <brunowolff> I don't feel it sucks, but I wish I could spend the same time on fewer packages.
18:44:51 <rbergeron> open source contribution has largely changed from "i work on the linux operating system" to "I get shit done for my dayjob" and "i scratch my own itch"
18:44:58 <jreznik> gregdek: so you prefer subcommunities but wants one central board thing to make decisions?
18:44:59 <StillBob> brunowolff: SHort on packagers? And still a back log of people looking for sponsors and first package reviews?
18:45:00 <j_dulaney> rbergeron:  Especially with how much 'clout' the Gnome folks have with Fedora
18:45:04 <dan408> mattdm: with the proper sponsor and mentorship anyone can be a packager.
18:45:10 <rbergeron> brunowolff: to you it doesn't, you've been doing it, and you recognize the value.
18:45:21 <mattdm> dan408: well sure. or a lion tamer.
18:45:28 <dan408> well i had both i guess
18:45:29 <gregdek> jreznik: one central board to handle disputes and apply scarce resources to common problems, yes. That's exactly what I want.
18:45:30 <dan408> :)
18:45:34 <j_dulaney> rbergeron:  Actually, for me, it's still "I work on the Linux operating system"
18:45:43 <rbergeron> To people whose experience is basically "github" as far as open source contribution, which i would argue is far more likely to tap as potential contributors than "ANYONE ON EARTH IN USER BASE,"
18:45:44 <jreznik> for packaging - better tooling could help us to automate it more, less sucks and so on
18:45:54 <inode0> To some degree we don't get to decide what we will be, we start somewhere and the community takes us along for the ride.
18:46:01 <DiscordianUK> I just use Fedora
18:46:09 <rbergeron> it's, well, a hell of a lot more work.
18:46:11 <rbergeron> DiscordianUK: me too :D
18:46:12 <gholms> rbergeron: Exactly.  Can we be more things to more people?  Right now our target is one thing.
18:46:15 <misc> gregdek: but board do not control people
18:46:21 <jreznik> gregdek: yep, I agree in this way but I don't see we hit such issues very often
18:46:36 <rdieter> misc: but we can say "no" to things
18:46:55 <StillBob> rdieter: Only if the board is asked
18:46:56 <inode0> We can occasionally reset the starting point, but ultimately people contributing will again reframe the direction we go from there.
18:46:59 <vwbusguy> I still like the notion of how people *use* Fedora rather than who is signed up on github as a better model
18:46:59 <mizmo> i liked the earlier suggestion of not having a user base but instead having prioritized use cases
18:47:05 <misc> rdieter: I used to do that a lot, and people just did it anyway outside of the project
18:47:05 <rdieter> StillBob: board can be proactive too
18:47:12 <jreznik> StillBob: and Board wasn't asked for years :)
18:47:16 <gregdek> jreznik: I think we hit them all the time. Like "better package build tooling", which could benefit everyone.
18:47:22 <StillBob> rdieter: How many things are happening without that happening?
18:47:25 <mattdm> So, rbergeron: There is a new, gigantic community of people building cool stuff with open source for which Fedora as it stands is completely irrelevant. That gigantic, growing community isn't a fluke -- it's just the result of the _general trend_ in computing.
18:47:25 <misc> rdieter: not saying we should say "yes", of course
18:47:32 <StillBob> grrr
18:47:41 <StillBob> rdieter: How many things are happening without being asked?
18:48:06 <rbergeron> mattdm: I have to wonder: Are we okay with knowing people are using Fedora, or are benefitting from Fedora, WITHOUT IT BEING the bright shiny thing on their desktop?
18:48:15 <rdieter> StillBob: if no one notices or is hurt, not a big deal.  when it causes problems or conflict, step in.
18:48:20 <mizmo> if you focus on a user base i think people look at it and think that if it's not them, it's a problem, and they disagree with it and ignore it
18:48:22 <jreznik> gregdek: better packaging tools are not Board decision - someone has to do it, Board can't say "from today, you're not Mate packager but you're working on tools"... it even does not work in companies, I expect dan408 would leave such company
18:48:30 <rbergeron> Or saying Fedora in a big ass logo on it?
18:48:34 <skvidal> rbergeron: if they metnion in their docs on setting up their app/tool/service yes
18:48:35 <mizmo> if you focus on a set of use cases we want to support, and they are cool things our community wants to do, it might be easier to build support for them
18:48:38 <skvidal> rbergeron: I think that's just fine
18:48:38 <mattdm> Our mission is to _lead the advancement of free and open source software and content_.
18:48:39 <rbergeron> Knowing that people are benefitting from open source?
18:48:44 <rdieter> mizmo: yes!
18:48:53 <rbergeron> I think that's perfectly okay.
18:48:57 <dan408> jreznik: immediately.
18:49:09 <misc> mattdm: I am not sure we are leading on the content part, to be honest
18:49:13 <dan408> and again, let's think about why i packaged mate in the first place.
18:49:14 <gholms> rbergeron: We want a user base, not nevessarily a desktop base.
18:49:19 <dan408> out of complete frustration.
18:49:28 <jreznik> misc: and I'd really like to see that content part!
18:49:29 <mattdm> misc: and increasingly, the movement around free software is _going elsewhere_.
18:49:33 * gholms is crippled by his phone keyboard
18:49:35 * DiscordianUK nods
18:49:44 <mizmo> we want people to make cool shit using fedora right? isn't that what everyone wants?
18:49:48 <mitr> mizmo: If the community wants to do them already, why would we need to define the use cases in the first place?
18:49:56 <rbergeron> We are at the :10 to the hour mark.
18:50:02 <DiscordianUK> I think that is one reason why Fedora rocks dan408
18:50:04 <jreznik> mitr: yes, that's what we want
18:50:04 <mizmo> mitr, if they aren't defined, then they are harder to get support for
18:50:09 <mattdm> Not just from Fedora; from working on distros. Not because we suck; in fact, because we did such a good job that it's boring. Interesting problems are now at a higher level.
18:50:11 <dan408> mizmo: what's cool about Gnome 3? Absolutely NOTHING IMO
18:50:11 <misc> jreznik: isn't it the job of a already existing community ( like wikipedia, etc ), so maybe we should think how we can complement them
18:50:15 <dan408> DiscordianUK: it is.
18:50:21 <brunowolff> I am not sure developers really understand what free software is really about. I have had some interactions with upstream for some things where they really didn't understand licensing and claimed their stuff was GPL when they were using non-free assets.
18:50:21 <rbergeron> (goddamnit, my kid is sick and skylanders giants disc is BROKEN)
18:50:24 <mizmo> mitr, for example, if we decide that building cool robots using fedora is a priority use case, then we can get funding to go to robotics conferences and talk about fedora there
18:50:40 <satellit> +1 for #fedora-arm and the things they are doing....
18:50:45 <dan408> anyways
18:50:48 <DiscordianUK> +1
18:50:49 <mizmo> mitr, if it's just a small subcommunity doing robot stuff, it's hard to get other teams in fedora like marketing and design and ambassadors and events all supporting it - because the priority is not clear
18:50:52 <dan408> made my point
18:50:58 <vwbusguy> satellit, +1
18:50:59 <mizmo> without priorities, everything is equally able to be ignored / put to the bottom of the pile
18:51:02 <DiscordianUK> I want fedora on my nook dammit
18:51:03 <brunowolff> They seemed to think if they could get something from a public web page, that it was free.
18:51:04 <mitr> mizmo: That's talking about some prospecitve comunity that doesn't exist.  OK, I was thinking in context ov _existing_ contributor base.
18:51:06 <mizmo> with priorities, it's easier to get resources to the things we think are important
18:51:18 <mizmo> mitr, no there is actually a robotics community within fedora
18:51:22 <mizmo> mitr, i wasn't making up an example
18:51:23 <misc> mizmo: or because there is more packagers than marketing/doc/etc team can handle
18:51:23 <vwbusguy> mizmo, +1
18:51:25 <mattdm> mizmo: +1
18:51:32 <rbergeron> I think that the best way to get more people to contribute is to have something that is (a) easy to use / modify / reshape for their own "end user purposes" - and to have an enduring promise and commitment to freedom that we yell out from the skies.
18:51:36 <rbergeron> Among other things.
18:51:41 <mizmo> mitr, theres a guy in south america who uses fedora with his classroom to build robots
18:51:42 <rbergeron> There are 1 billion places for people to contribute.
18:51:44 <jreznik> misc: I mean it more in the way - propagate that content, show people free content, open data works great with our values etc.
18:51:46 <satellit> OLPC is working with robotics  ...
18:51:49 <rbergeron> It is easier than ever.
18:51:51 <rdieter> rbergeron: yay
18:51:54 <gholms> rbergeron: +1
18:52:02 <Viking-Ice> mizmo, but what's import is what matter to the sub communities which are the people doing the work in the first place
18:52:05 <vwbusguy> rbergeron, marketting is part of the problem.  If people don't know that a robotics community even exists for example
18:52:14 <DiscordianUK> I regret I can't contribute more than I do
18:52:16 <mitr> mizmo: Anyway, the only thing the board can directly affect is marketing money?  How realistic is that it will significantly change what most of our contributors want to build on?
18:52:25 <mizmo> mitr, tha tisn't the only thing the board can directly affect
18:52:39 <DiscordianUK> But I just help folks on IRC as and when I can
18:52:41 <gholms> mitr: Perception matters a great deal.
18:52:41 <mizmo> mitr, it's not just money. it's how we talk aobut the project. what conversations we decide to enter into and which we abstain from.
18:52:41 <StillBob> Can you please hire someone to get a decent search working on the Black Hole?
18:52:51 <StillBob> s/Black\ Hole/Wiki
18:52:54 <rbergeron> Standing for something and having a reason more than "easy to use" affects people's hearts, makes them have a relationship with us, etc.
18:53:11 <rdieter> StillBob: google: fedoraproject.org/wiki + search term
18:53:16 <mizmo> mitr, it's about building the relationships with those communities best served by the prioritized use cases to expand fedora's reach into the mainstream of those communities
18:53:20 <mitr> mizmo: Reallistically there are the dozens/hundreds of people building RHEL and they are not going away
18:53:21 <rbergeron> And frankly, helps them overlook shit like "oh god updates just ruined my day" too. :)
18:53:30 <vwbusguy> rbergeron, yup.  The FOSS emphasis is a big draw for contributors IMO
18:53:30 <mizmo> mitr, okay, and so what?
18:53:37 <rbergeron> Lets them want to put up with "must upgrade once a year"
18:53:45 <misc> StillBob: let's open a bounty and see who want to pay for that ( like a kickstarter project ? )
18:53:49 <vwbusguy> rbergeron, and we shouldn't sacrifice that for the sake of being "user friendly"
18:53:50 <mitr> So they can and will drown out some other use cases
18:53:59 <mizmo> mitr, how/why?
18:54:05 <dan408> DiscordianUK: ditto. i think that if a lot of the people here like StillBob and DiscordianUK that sit in the frontlines and watch #fedora all day and watched what users everyday problems are maybe they'd get an idea of what are the most important issues we need to fix first off and then maybe also get an idea of where we should be going in the future
18:54:07 <rbergeron> mitr: yep. we have to build better relationsihps.
18:54:10 <mitr> I'd like us to stop pretending Fedora is not build for RHEL.
18:54:21 <StillBob> misc: Lets have Shadowman just DO IT so we know it gets done and works.
18:54:25 <mizmo> mitr, i mean, yeh, making fedora serve as a base for RHEL is an extremely important use case in terms of the sustainability of the project.
18:54:31 <mizmo> mitr, that doesn't mean it has to be the only use case
18:54:33 <dan408> mitr: +1
18:54:39 <mattdm> rbergeron: +1 to the existing core values.
18:54:44 <gholms> mitr: +1
18:54:52 <rbergeron> honestly: Fedora as a platform rather than "fedora as the perceived gnome-os" is proably better as a base for RHEL anyway.
18:54:57 <mizmo> mitr, i dont see anybody pretending it's not a base for RHEL
18:54:59 <misc> StillBob: I would rather avoid relying on the main sponsor, I see how it worked for mandriva, I have no reason to see how it would wrok differently here
18:55:07 <DiscordianUK> I regrettably don't feel I help much
18:55:10 <dan408> rbergeron: +1
18:55:10 <inode0> rbergeron: yes, way better
18:55:11 <gholms> mizmo: But if it is one of our strengths we should play to it.
18:55:17 <gregdek> The reality is that Fedora *is* a platform. A great one.
18:55:19 <StillBob> misc: You are confused...
18:55:23 <dan408> gregdek: WAS
18:55:24 <mitr> mizmo: The user base on the wiki and people who use RHEL have pretty much nothing in common
18:55:27 <rdieter> mitr: target use case : "make derivative spin/distro"
18:55:30 <jreznik> gregdek: +1 to platform
18:55:34 * satellit mageia is going strong
18:55:34 <rbergeron> DiscordianUK: but you are here and participating. It is welcomed and I'm glad you could make it :)
18:55:38 <gregdek> dan408: why was?
18:55:40 <inode0> the reality is no one really perceives it to be a platform
18:55:40 <mizmo> gholms, certainly! having a stable platform that is used for a widely popular enterprise linux is absolutely a strength
18:55:42 <StillBob> misc: You seem to think that Fedora™ is some kind of stand alone entity
18:55:43 <misc> StillBob: maybe, not unexpected from me :)
18:55:53 <dan408> gregdek: i used to have confidence running fedora servers in a datacenter. I no longer do.
18:55:55 <mattdm> gregdek +1 to platform too
18:55:58 <misc> StillBob: well, I think Fedora should be that
18:56:01 <andreasn> rbergeron, the good thing about the desktop offering is that it is a clear product.
18:56:05 <StillBob> misc: It is Red Hat, many will not admit it but it is.
18:56:05 <mizmo> mitr, that's actually not true at all.
18:56:07 <DiscordianUK> I try and play whatever bit I can
18:56:08 <inode0> and perception has a lot to do with who comes to look around
18:56:10 <andreasn> the server should be a clear product too
18:56:15 * jreznik would even not object with GNOME OS based on Fedora - even as a separate project for example same as RHEL is
18:56:26 <DiscordianUK> I'd be lost without Fedora
18:56:30 <dan408> jreznik: me neither.
18:56:31 <mitr> rdieter: rbergeron's wording as "platform" makes more sense to me ... anything can be used to build a derivative, but that doesn't mean the base does anything particularly well.
18:56:36 <misc> StillBob: being seen as RHEL beta is harmful, as i am pretty sure there is less contribution from external company due to that ( when compared to debian , for exemple )
18:57:01 <mattrose> if Fedora didn't exist I'd have to re-invent it, badly...
18:57:01 <dan408> misc: It's rhel beta stop trying to put lipstick on a pig.
18:57:02 <DiscordianUK> I don't see RHEL as a problem
18:57:12 <rdieter> mitr: ok, wording doesn't matter to me.  as long as it's a clear (and important) documented use-case
18:57:14 <dan408> if it's not rhel beta then make it stable.
18:57:20 <vwbusguy> DiscordianUK, me neither
18:57:21 <rbergeron> misc: I would like for us to be a kick ass guest. I would like for us to be so good that I have people in RHEL-land coming and yelling at me about how we're encroachign on their territory.
18:57:22 <mizmo> does anybody disagree with the idea that we all want fedora to be used in building cool things?
18:57:29 <rbergeron> God, did i just say that out loud? I did.
18:57:33 <rbergeron> MUHAHAHA.
18:57:33 <DiscordianUK> Now I wonder quite what rhel 7 will look like
18:57:33 <satellit> + 1 for LTS versions
18:57:35 <mattdm> rbergeron +1
18:57:36 <Viking-Ice> inode0, because we are sending the message "we have a default" and by doing that we  "this is what we want you" instead of encourage people to explore try, and if they dont like what they see here are the tools for you to create what you like to see
18:57:37 <gholms> :)
18:57:37 <vwbusguy> rbergeron, +1
18:57:40 <andreasn> mizmo, on or as a base?
18:57:41 <mizmo> because if we all agree with that, then the next step is to figure out what cool things
18:57:45 <gregdek> Imagine someone building a Bitnami based on Fedora instead of Ubuntu. :)
18:57:51 <mizmo> andreasn, either
18:57:59 <mitr> mizmo: What would be the opposite of that statement? People who want to build uncool things?  People who want to... watch youtube movies?
18:58:03 <inode0> mizmo: I agree completely with that but I disagree that the board or any other small group should define the set of cool things
18:58:05 <rbergeron> gregdek: are you trying to arrange my marriage or something? :)
18:58:06 <DiscordianUK> I'd support doing LTS
18:58:10 <dan408> rbergeron: fedora 14 was just that. fedora 18 is pretty close to getting back to that
18:58:12 <gholms> andreasn: Does it matter?
18:58:13 <brunowolff> I don't think RHEL beta is accurate, it is more used for technology development. Some of which succeeds and some of which fails.
18:58:16 <misc> dan408: well, as i said, rhel target mainly server, and I think I am in the minority who run fedora on server, that's not a great way to test a beta
18:58:25 <mattrose> mitr: I wanna watch youtube movies.  Does that make me a bad person?
18:58:26 <dan408> rbergeron: but how can you possibly do that with a 6 month release cycle?
18:58:35 <rbergeron> inode0: I think that the "cool things list" may be "here's what we're doing the best at RIGHT NOW"
18:58:37 <mizmo> mitr, does there have to be a direct opposite of the statement for it to make sense to you? the user base is a good alternative for comparison
18:58:42 <dan408> rbergeron: how can you do that when the way to upgrade changes and/or breaks almost every release?
18:58:43 <rbergeron> we can't tell people what to do.
18:58:59 <mizmo> e.g., fedora being for people who build and make things, not people who consume or do 'general productivity'
18:59:00 <rbergeron> But we can certainly foster an environment that it easy for them to do really great things.
18:59:01 <misc> and i think we do not have LTS because updating is boring for packagers
18:59:02 <gregdek> dan408: by occasionally having a Fedora release that lives longer than 13 months?
18:59:06 <andreasn> gholms, well, one is building a clear operating system that includes tools for making, say, blueprints for robots on, the other would be a base operating system for robot software
18:59:08 <DiscordianUK> and I might move to rawhide which is effectively a rolling release
18:59:09 <dan408> gregdek: yes.
18:59:10 <rdieter> dan408: eventually, we'll find one that works. :-P
18:59:20 <dan408> rdieter: fedora 14 was the last one
18:59:31 <dan408> rdieter: 18 is pretty good i guess.
18:59:32 <rdieter> dan408: one = upgrade method, in context
18:59:33 <mizmo> inode0, it depends at what level the set of cool things are defined. we cannot be everything
18:59:37 <rbergeron> Guys: We're at the 1 minute mark.
18:59:41 <mattdm> So, if we declare this the key use case, the release cycle changes *follow*. Making that the driver is *backwards*.
18:59:42 <rbergeron> We have rambled for an hour.
18:59:43 <dan408> quite frankly
18:59:47 <mizmo> inode0, well, we can be everything that's what we are now, thats not so successful is it
18:59:49 <mattrose> the whole /usr move, gnome3, systemd and anaconda changes have made a mess of the last few releases
18:59:50 <mitr> mizmo: No, but it needs to be more specific than "90% of breathing people" (I know the 90% is exaggerating)
18:59:59 <vwbusguy> If RHEL stayed on it's former 2 year release cycle, then the Fedora LTS discussion would be sqealched ;-)
19:00:05 <dan408> i remember one of my favorite fedora features. upgrading via yum. point my fedora 11 install to fedora 12 repo and run yum update
19:00:06 <dan408> and bam
19:00:06 <dan408> done
19:00:07 <Viking-Ice> mizmo, yes we can we can be what ever sub community wants to be
19:00:09 <rbergeron> What are our steps at this point?
19:00:10 <dan408> none of this fedup crap
19:00:11 <StillBob> rbergeron: a format, a bit of moderation, would go a long way.
19:00:15 <mizmo> mitr, right, that's why im saying the next step would be to define which type of cool things we want to focus on enabling people to build.
19:00:16 <inode0> we aren't everything now
19:00:16 <DiscordianUK> Can we not exceed the hour ?
19:00:19 <rbergeron> StillBob: Indeed.
19:00:23 <andreasn> mattrose, well, one have to move or die
19:00:26 <mizmo> inode0, we are a complete chaotic anything goes bazaar
19:00:29 <mizmo> inode0, i consider that everything
19:00:31 <misc> DiscordianUK: we can discuss outside of the meeting
19:00:32 * inode0 thinks we are pretty close to exactly one thing now
19:00:33 <mizmo> inode0, by being everything we are nothing
19:00:48 <rbergeron> DiscordianUK: yes, but I don't want to disenfranchise people who have to leave, either. I am sure we could have this discussin for the next 5 days.
19:00:50 <andreasn> move/evolve
19:00:50 <brunowolff> It's not that LTS work is boring, it's harder and are packager time available is already stretched thin.
19:00:51 <mattrose> andreasn: yeah, but it was still a mess
19:00:52 <inode0> it isn't about being everything
19:00:54 <misc> ( even I think we all know the position of everybidy, point have been understood the first time they were made )
19:00:58 <StillBob> rbergeron: the OLD format of a moderated channel and a different channel for the peanut gallery seems really sane at this point of this meeting.
19:01:00 <rdieter> dan408: hate to tell you this, fedup is not much more than 'yum update' in a specialized safe environment
19:01:07 <inode0> it is about whether 10 people are smart enough to declare we are now X
19:01:25 <mizmo> inode0, i dont think they should do that
19:01:41 <StillBob> rdieter: Does not matter what it is, as long as it works...
19:01:43 <mizmo> inode0, rather i think we should take a look at what people are doing with fedora now that is cool and elevate those things that are the most promising, call them out, and get them resources
19:01:44 <rbergeron> StillBob: yes, possibly. (though i will say: it's nice to see this many people being this engaged)
19:01:45 <mattdm> i don't think anyone is saying that anyone is going to do that.
19:01:46 <StillBob> ;)
19:01:52 <DiscordianUK> I believe you right rbergeron
19:01:55 <inode0> well if we say these are the 3 use cases we care about I think that is what we are doing
19:02:04 <dan408> rdieter: with a quite ironic name
19:02:04 <rdieter> StillBob: indeed, just pointing out logical fallacy of saying 'yum update' is awesome, and fedup sucks
19:02:21 <StillBob> rbergeron: We used to have a huge engaged discussion in the peanut gallery
19:02:23 <mizmo> inode0, it depends at what level you're defining the use case. a use case can be quite broad or very specific.
19:02:25 <mattdm> inode0: if the board comes down with those use cases from the mountain, sure.
19:02:25 <misc> mizmo: what kind of resource do you think we can give ( besides asking to people to do thing, or allocate some money for cd, etc) ?
19:02:33 <jreznik> looking on it - we maybe hit clash between contributors (who contributes to fedora for some reasons) and users (who just wants to use it)... and there are not enough contributors to say, it's the only audience ;-)
19:02:38 <herlo> rdieter, dan408, StillBob: and yet, that is off-topic
19:02:40 <mizmo> misc, i kind of went into pretty great detail up earlier in the log....
19:02:51 <misc> mizmo: I kinda missed it, will read :)
19:02:56 <mizmo> misc, kk
19:03:01 <rbergeron> things are fast moving.
19:03:05 <vwbusguy> jreznik, the goal should be to merge those so we get users contributing and making things more "useful" for them
19:03:13 <dan408> anyways, someone made a great point on the devel list.. why do we support 2 releases? didn't spherical cow teach us anything? by the time 18 came out who was actually still running or cared about 16? Why don't we drop the 2 supported release/6month cycle and go to an 8 month 1 release model?
19:03:27 <mizmo> or think about what folks who aren't currently using who fit our core values and would benefit from free software and try to engage them
19:03:34 <vwbusguy> jreznik, we should blur the divide between users and contributors as much as possible
19:03:36 <rdieter> dan408: dude, herlo's right. focus... stay ontopic. :)
19:03:38 <gregdek> dan408: does that break what RHEL needs?
19:03:45 <mattrose> jreznik: I think more users would contribute if it were easier.  I don't think anyone is "just a user"
19:03:51 <dan408> sorrry i lost focus
19:03:55 <rbergeron> StillBob points out that having a format for the next meeting might be useful. What have we accomplished today, where do we go next? what do we need to know?
19:04:11 <brunowolff> While I wouldn't want to use this format all of the time, for brainstorming it seems to allow alot more ideas to get floated than the normal protocol.
19:04:11 <gregdek> +1 to main channel and discussion channel for next meeting
19:04:15 <herlo> dan408: I think that's not relevant here. We need to focus on what we want the user base to look like. Warts and all, we've got a community, releases go a certain way. That's all debatable elsewhere.
19:04:16 <dan408> gregdek: stability? no.
19:04:27 <jreznik> dan408: that's me who does not understand why we pretend to support to releases...
19:04:28 <vwbusguy> rbergeron, well, at some point we will need to make decisions and make them actionable :-)
19:04:30 <rbergeron> Okay, does anyone disagree with main channel vs. discussion channel for next meeting?
19:04:42 <gregdek> rbergeron: i disagree.
19:04:44 <gregdek> NOW WHAT?
19:04:47 <gholms> Heh
19:04:53 <gholms> rbergeron: Let's give it a shot.
19:04:53 <mizmo> well there's at least one proposal on the tablet from this rbergeron (replace userbase with set of prioritized use cases), and a bunch of stated concerns about it (what good does it do, will the board define them and is that fair, how will prioritizing those use cases change anything or matter, etc.)
19:05:00 <dan408> the user base looks like redhat employees, contributors and sysadmins that want to know what to expect from the next RHEL currently, IMHO
19:05:01 <misc> gregdek: we do another meeting until you agree :p
19:05:03 <rdieter> rbergeron: makes sense for this and related topics
19:05:12 <gregdek> :)
19:05:15 <dan408> + maybe people trying to get their feet wet
19:05:19 <rbergeron> I don't know that i said replace userbase with use cases
19:05:25 <mizmo> rbergeron, i said it :)
19:05:26 <mattdm> dan408: that userbase is _very_ poorly represented in the current target definition.
19:05:31 <rbergeron> but I think hat may have been a collective proposal
19:05:32 <Viking-Ice> replacing user base with use cases will not solve anything because both of these are defined by the distribution sub communities
19:05:41 <mizmo> rbergeron, i think that a free for all irc channel with a structured etherpad might be a better format
19:05:45 <dan408> mattdm: not my problem, that's reality
19:05:50 <mizmo> if theres one or two designated notetakers
19:05:53 <herlo> rbergeron: I think both inode0 and mizmo said similar things about use cases.
19:06:01 <mattdm> mizmo: +1 to etherpad
19:06:07 <StillBob> I think focusing short term on the usecases will help clarify the user base(target)
19:06:09 * rdieter hopped on the use-case bandwagon too
19:06:22 <rbergeron> Do we agree that $userbase as defined is not matching up with what we are producing, and that we are not making great strides in reaching that userbase with a product or messaging?
19:06:22 * mattdm is also +1 to mizmo writing an awesome blog post summarizing the whole thing after the fact.
19:06:33 <dan408> rbergeron: +1
19:06:34 <rbergeron> If we don't agree to that, then continuing to discuss it is silly. :)
19:06:35 <herlo> rbergeron: I do agree with your statement
19:06:37 <rdieter> rbergeron: agreed
19:06:38 <DiscordianUK> +1
19:06:40 <mizmo> mattdm, do you have the logs from earlier or is the bot recording it? i joined late :(
19:06:42 <gholms> rbergeron: At the very least, the latter.
19:06:52 <rbergeron> mizmo: bot is recording
19:06:52 <jreznik> as a distribution we really has to be more in touch with upstream, especially that upstreams that influences our offering and to know, where they lead...
19:06:55 <vwbusguy> rbergeron, +1
19:06:56 <mattdm> mizmo bot should have it
19:06:59 * inode0 isn't so concerned about what we are producing and whether the user base matches now. Are we producing what we want to produce?
19:06:59 <gregdek> agree with rbergeron's last statement
19:07:02 <mizmo> rbergeron, +1 the userbase as is is useless
19:07:21 <rbergeron> inode0: yes, happiness starts at home.
19:07:30 <StillBob> Define "what are we producing" and "what do we want to produce" will help clear up the "who we are" question.
19:07:31 <AnnaE> mizmo, +1
19:07:32 <herlo> inode0: I think your point follows well too. there's no real value in discussing the user base until we know what we want.
19:07:37 <misc> well, i recognize myself in the userbase, but yeah, we are not using it to define what we do
19:07:54 <inode0> what we are producing is a desktop distribution - see the website
19:07:57 <mattdm> inode0: yes to that. I think it's just a first step to formally say that okay, what we have isn't right.
19:08:08 <vwbusguy> herlo, you mean we don't get paid by the doanload ;-)
19:08:11 <mattdm> (my last comment is to your _earlier_ one)
19:08:13 <Viking-Ice> jreznik, upstream is defined again by sub communities ( like each DE ) so fedora can never be any closer to upstream than the sub community makes it
19:08:15 <herlo> vwbusguy: lol
19:08:19 <vwbusguy> herlo, I'll have to quit selling Fedora licenses then
19:08:24 <rbergeron> StillBob: I'll point out that "user base" itself is a weird definition - it's not just "who we are" but also representative of "who we want to be for" (for that definition as decided at the time)
19:08:24 * herlo kicks vwbusguy for being off-topic
19:08:30 <herlo> but chuckles too...
19:08:31 <mizmo> inode0, we can change the website :)
19:08:38 <mizmo> inode0, the messaging of the website is all f11/f12 era
19:08:53 <inode0> it is the substance that is limiting
19:09:08 <StillBob> rbergeron: That is what I was trying to find words for and my fingers were not working in tandem with my brain...
19:09:11 <rbergeron> Viking-Ice: agreed. And when we have disconnects between communities, or we aren't in trust of them, we have found different substitutes. mariadb / mysql seems to be a reasonable extension of that idea, I think.
19:09:14 <StillBob> ;)
19:09:21 <inode0> so we can think about how much of this can be accomplished via marketing/website stuff - some surely can
19:09:34 <DiscordianUK> i'd like us to say that Fedora is a collection of desktops linux systems
19:09:41 <rbergeron> It's not about making us a great platform for mysql; it's about us having a community that is happy about the communities it works with.
19:09:46 * AndyP thanks those who voiced the use cases point more succinctly than he did at the beginning
19:09:53 <gregdek> DiscordianUK: that's not what I use Fedora for at all. :)
19:09:53 <vwbusguy> DiscordianUK, +1
19:09:54 <mizmo> but how does being a collection of desktop linux systems do any good for anybody?
19:10:07 <Viking-Ice> DiscordianUK, not what I would like to see either
19:10:12 <vwbusguy> DiscordianUK, I like the idea of that being a primary goal
19:10:12 <DiscordianUK> defining us as a multi desktop distro
19:10:12 <mizmo> are there people in the world whose goal in life is to try multiple desktops? i can't imagine there are enough for fedora to then matter much in the world?
19:10:20 <dan408> DiscordianUK: +1
19:10:29 <mizmo> trying different desktops out isn't really doing anything
19:10:31 <inode0> desktops should be one thing Fedora is used to create <--- my view of what Fedora should be follows
19:10:38 <rbergeron> #agreed Loosely agreed: User Base, as currently defined, isn't matching up with what we are producing, and unclear that what the majority of existing contributors are here to do is to address the user base.
19:10:41 <andreasn> what about servers then?
19:10:52 <vwbusguy> andreasn, there but secondary
19:10:52 <herlo> gregdek: I don't use fedora that way. For me, it's more of a portal into the ether. :)
19:10:53 <misc> mizmo: I know people whose goals in life is trying linux distro :)
19:11:05 <mizmo> misc, theres not many of them
19:11:07 <brunowolff> I use Fedora because I want to own my computing devices.
19:11:16 <misc> mizmo: yep, hopefully
19:11:21 <jreznik> brunowolff: +1
19:11:22 <Viking-Ice> if you want to make people contribute and participate it needs to be fun and fulfilling for them to do so and the more sub communities we have the more they are likely to find something they feel is fun and rewarding participating in
19:11:24 <DiscordianUK> My view is that we shouldn't be a server distro
19:11:26 <mizmo> misc, but i know some too ;-)
19:11:38 <mizmo> it's going to be fun and fulfilling if what we're doing MATTERS
19:11:42 <herlo> DiscordianUK: I don't think anyone is debating that with you. At least, I'm not
19:11:42 <StillBob> I would like to think of... I hate to use the word because if the history but... a CORE that many things can be built on, Desktops(GNOME, MATE, KDE, 12 or more others), internet(web) server, Tablets, ARM, big lists get started.
19:11:54 <inode0> bingo
19:11:57 <satellit> +1
19:12:01 <mattrose> StillBob: a Platform?
19:12:02 <vwbusguy> heh
19:12:03 <mizmo> serving as a multidesktop distro doesn't matter. how many multidesktop distros are out there
19:12:05 <dan408> +1 StillBob
19:12:08 * herlo sees his fedora machine as a platform for getting things done.
19:12:20 * mattrose agrees with herlo
19:12:22 <DiscordianUK> we need to address tablets StillBob +1
19:12:23 * vwbusguy shudders at the word Core
19:12:25 <herlo> it gives me an environment to allow me to do what I like.
19:12:27 <vwbusguy> but likes the concept
19:12:34 <gregdek> Fedora Core 20 FTW!
19:12:36 <herlo> lol
19:12:38 <vwbusguy> hahaha
19:12:40 <gholms> Heh
19:12:43 <rbergeron> I have to step away for a minute. My daughter just got driven home sick. And I need to dole out the meds.
19:12:44 <andreasn> mizmo, true that, debian and suse aren't that successful
19:12:44 <rdieter> ala "make awesome stuff"
19:12:45 <mitr> mizmo: "building a desktop doesn't matter: Windows is out there".  "Building a cloud image doesn't matter: Amazon will give users one"
19:12:51 <dan408> careful with the cat.. it bites ;)
19:13:00 <skvidal> gregdek: actually - could we bump the version number for the next release by a bunch
19:13:01 <herlo> Fedora Core 20 -  'A portal into the ether'
19:13:04 <skvidal> gregdek: like solaris did
19:13:06 <StillBob> gregdek: Help us codename is "Red Hat Linux 10x2"
19:13:06 <skvidal> maybe by like 80
19:13:11 <skvidal> and we could call it fedora centos!
19:13:16 <mizmo> mitr, that's really not what i said nor twisted in any way that's directly analogous at all
19:13:16 * rbergeron detects we are going off the deep end here, also
19:13:16 <vwbusguy> gregdek, now with selinux set to self-destruct by default and no overrides
19:13:32 <Viking-Ice> andreasn, quite the contrary debian is quite successful ( not sure about opensuse thou )
19:13:33 <dan408> can the release name for 20 just be "20"?
19:13:35 <mizmo> if i wanted to try out multiple desktops, why would i choose fedora over debian or suse?
19:13:38 <DiscordianUK> It's probably time to wind up
19:13:39 <mizmo> answer: i wouldn't.
19:13:40 <mitr> I can stand behind the _idea_ to build a platform, but the _implementation_ will be a _minefield_.
19:13:53 <herlo> k, back on topic, PEOPLE! :D
19:13:55 <dan408> with a birthday cake picture and a 20 shaped candle on it?
19:13:57 <mitr> Are we willing to walk through it?
19:14:02 <gregdek> We must be.
19:14:02 <mattrose> I think we should start using roman numerals FXX
19:14:07 <gregdek> It's where the value is.
19:14:07 <misc> ok, so since we have kinda finished the meeting, someone is against closing it ?
19:14:11 <rbergeron> rdieter: I appoint you in charge of trying to figure out next meeting steps, and what we can do in theinterim on-list to move things along; solicit ideas (or people, just start listing them and someone info them)
19:14:11 * inode0 thanks everyone wandering off the deep end or not, nice to have a good discussion again
19:14:11 <mizmo> a platform for what?
19:14:17 <rdieter> oh noes
19:14:18 <rbergeron> plz :)
19:14:21 <rbergeron> rdieter: or pass it to someone else.
19:14:22 <gregdek> inode0: +1 :)
19:14:26 <Viking-Ice> mizmo, everything
19:14:27 <rdieter> np
19:14:30 <rbergeron> but you're the name that i saw on the screen.
19:14:36 <mizmo> Viking-Ice, so now we are back to being everything again
19:14:37 * mizmo sighs
19:14:39 <herlo> +1 to inode0
19:14:42 <andreasn> Viking-Ice, as a desktop system, for the masses?
19:14:44 * rbergeron goes to check on reported "bubbly ears and possible strep throat" girl
19:14:47 <misc> mizmo: fedora bsd :p
19:14:54 <mitr> mizmo: For building $stuff on.  Like, an API that actually makes sense instead of the 10 millinon libraries we have
19:15:05 <rdieter> frankly we (and I) are out of time today, so need to evaluate where we are and what to do to prep for next meeting
19:15:08 <herlo> wow, this is really the deep end. I've not been here in a while :)
19:15:16 <Viking-Ice> andreasn, if that's what you and your sub community wants yes desktop for the masses
19:15:25 <jreznik> so - do we want as a project to be that one who ships the final product people can use, or do want to be a catalyzator to allow other projects to build on top of it? GNOME OS, RHEL, cloud images...
19:15:31 <DiscordianUK> let's conclude
19:15:33 * mizmo volunteers to pore over the meeting minutes and do a blog post summary
19:15:36 <mizmo> (as a next step)
19:15:39 <herlo> rdieter: are you a chair? Probably good to move to open floor, if not close the meeting
19:15:39 * rdieter hugs mizmo
19:15:47 <brunowolff> mizmo: thanks
19:15:51 <jreznik> it will weaken our brand, but see for example Mer as that platform
19:15:56 <DiscordianUK> we have to have another meeting
19:16:03 <StillBob> There is a Blog again?
19:16:04 <rdieter> that would be a great way to kick off discussion elsewhere, mailing lists, yada yada
19:16:04 <Viking-Ice> andreasn, if the cloud sub community wants to make it the best cloud platform for the masses yes then it is
19:16:15 <mizmo> i think what we want to end up with is some kind of plan / document
19:16:21 <rdieter> #topic meeting wrap up
19:16:25 <andreasn> Viking-Ice, I was more quetioning if Debian have been a massive hit on the desktop spreading free software to the masses
19:16:30 * vwbusguy writes out a big SVG Thank You in InkScape for mizmo
19:16:41 <andreasn> well, it has as Ubuntu to some extent
19:16:49 <DiscordianUK> It has been excellent
19:16:51 <rdieter> #action mizmo volunteered valiantly to pore over the meeting minutes and do a blog post summary
19:17:34 <mattdm> yay!
19:17:53 <rdieter> not sure we can conclude much more *right now*, can we?
19:17:55 <mizmo> well
19:17:59 * vwbusguy would also like to see better isolation between desktop environments.  Switching between Gnome/KDE/XFCE etc may carry some residual effects O.o
19:18:00 <mizmo> we have to figure out what to do for next meeting
19:18:02 <Viking-Ice> andreasn, you do realize that sooner rather then later users will just download gnome from gnome upstream right ( as things seem to be evolving ) so we need to give them something to participate in with us
19:18:15 <mizmo> i think it might be easier once we have today's discussed sorted out though
19:18:27 * gregdek wanders afk. looking forward to notes. thanks mizmo.
19:18:31 <rdieter> mizmo: I was hoping so :)
19:18:33 <mizmo> so maybe the action item there is once i write up the summary, we figure out based on the things that came up today how to proceed next
19:18:41 <gholms> worksforme
19:18:42 <mizmo> with the next meeting anyway
19:18:51 <rdieter> else, we'll make something up
19:18:53 <jreznik> seems like common pattern here is platform - could we start next meeting with it? how such platform could look like
19:19:02 <rdieter> jreznik: maybe
19:19:11 <mizmo> that seems reasonable
19:19:18 <andreasn> Viking-Ice, could be, indeed
19:19:23 <jreznik> and yes, as mitr said - it's minefield
19:19:34 <gregdek> maybe platform plus (use cases as they connect platform to subcommunities)
19:19:45 <rdieter> arg, phone
19:20:13 <jreznik> gregdek: why not, makes sense
19:20:20 <mizmo> oh
19:20:22 <mizmo> i have one idea
19:20:22 <mitr> jreznik: Well we can punt and say "JBoss will give you an API" but that a) won't solve the problem and b) won't be acceptable
19:20:31 <mizmo> so ive been in this similar place with other projects before
19:20:31 <brunowolff> Yeah, I think we are more of a platform than in the past and that emphasing that makes more sense. But it is an odd platform in that it is used to try out new things more so than be a constant.
19:20:36 <mizmo> and there's one exercise.... it's pretty hokey actually
19:20:47 * inode0 points at long devel thread for one way it could look :)
19:20:49 <mizmo> but it's an exercise where you basically get together with the team and write up an obituary for your project
19:20:53 <mizmo> as if it was a person that died
19:20:54 * gregdek puts his left foot in...
19:20:59 <mizmo> and talk about all the things it accomplished and did, etc
19:21:03 * StillBob was thinking VT
19:21:17 <mizmo> it's kind of ghoulish but some kind of artifact like that might be a useful - but far more focused - brain storming exercise
19:21:28 <misc> mizmo: that would have been a good april fool to publish it :)
19:21:29 <dan408> re: Jboss, REALLY off topic i know but I would like to learn more about Jboss and the EPEL entitlement program has been awesome and it would be really nice if it could be extended to other redhat products, such as jboss.
19:21:30 <dan408> thanks.
19:21:45 <mizmo> theres other little brainstorming exercises too, i have a book of them. maybe i'll go through it and pick out some i think might work for us and suggest them on the list?
19:21:54 <herlo> brunowolff: pretty much what I said previously, I likes it!
19:21:54 <misc> mizmo: seems a good idea
19:21:56 <gregdek> "Here lies David St Hubbins... and why not?"
19:21:57 <gholms> mizmo: Sounds like a good idea.
19:22:00 <mizmo> i think if the next meeting focuses on building an artifact the discussion will be a bit less chaotic
19:22:01 <AnnaE> +1 mizmo
19:22:09 <mattdm> +1 mizmo
19:22:14 <DiscordianUK> please do
19:22:19 <mizmo> kk :)
19:22:31 <misc> #info mizmo propose to look at various brainstorming tools
19:22:36 <herlo> misc: we still have next april fools :)
19:22:59 <misc> herlo: planning in advance, wow
19:23:04 <mizmo> halloween comes sooner hehe
19:23:05 * rbergeron returns, meds doled out and dr. appointment now made
19:23:09 <rdieter> just realized I'm not a meeting chair
19:23:09 <jreznik> btw. with some guys we were thinking about setting up ideatorrent for fedora...
19:23:11 <herlo> well, it's only a year away! :D
19:23:14 <rbergeron> look, decisions! yay
19:23:16 <herlo> rbergeron: yeah
19:23:17 <rdieter> my commands didn't do anything
19:23:26 <herlo> rdieter: tell rbergeron to chair you next time :)
19:23:28 <rbergeron> crap.
19:23:29 <StillBob> <zodbot> Current chairs: gholms inode0 jreznik misc rbergeron sparks
19:23:34 <rbergeron> #chair rdieter
19:23:34 <zodbot> Current chairs: gholms inode0 jreznik misc rbergeron rdieter sparks
19:23:36 <rdieter> thought I was, only noticed now
19:23:37 <rbergeron> I fail
19:23:39 <misc> jreznik: I am quite mixed on this, it need someone to follow up
19:23:40 <herlo> lol
19:23:52 <rbergeron> rdieter: hit the up arrow a bunch
19:23:53 <gholms> rdieter: If you're just using #info you don't need to be chaired.
19:23:55 <herlo> rdieter: when your #topic didn't work, I kind of giggled.
19:24:03 <misc> jreznik: and I think it give wrong expecation to user filling ideas in the end
19:24:05 <rbergeron> or listen to gholms, because he's the meetbot master
19:24:05 <gholms> rdieter: #topic, on the other hand...  :(
19:24:13 <StillBob> I'm not 100% sure "#info" works as expected
19:24:25 * rdieter shakes fist in herlo's direction
19:24:36 <misc> jreznik: openshift do this, and that help them to build product, but I think "shortage of things to do" is not one of the problem we have :/
19:24:47 <herlo> rdieter: lol
19:25:04 <rdieter> #topic meeting wrap up
19:25:05 <rdieter> nya
19:25:08 <rdieter> so there
19:25:27 <herlo> nice!
19:25:28 <rbergeron> okay.
19:25:35 <rbergeron> :)
19:25:39 <herlo> that topic is from ~20mins ago :D
19:25:41 <jreznik> rdieter: you're my hero!
19:25:52 <rbergeron> So we all have action items?
19:25:58 * rbergeron will read up
19:26:13 <misc> rbergeron: we dont, except mizmo
19:26:13 <rbergeron> or action items are made? :) (not for everyone i assume)
19:26:26 <mizmo> i have the most homework
19:26:27 * mizmo whines
19:26:28 <rbergeron> okay.
19:26:37 * misc give a poney to mizmo
19:26:42 <gholms> Yay, mizmo!
19:26:47 <mizmo> aww thanks misc :) i love ponies
19:26:57 <rbergeron> mizmo: i advise against riding the pony right now
19:27:03 <rbergeron> they are bouncy
19:27:15 * jreznik has one AI too :)
19:27:17 <rbergeron> :D
19:27:17 <mizmo> rbergeron, im getting close to the point that might be a good thing :)
19:27:26 <rbergeron> mizmo: LOL
19:27:27 <herlo> rbergeron: but maybe she wants to get that baby out sooner than later :)
19:27:28 <mizmo> as long as i dont fall off
19:27:36 <herlo> see! :D
19:27:55 <gholms> Heh
19:27:56 <rbergeron> I am going to write up thoughts on "what has changed" - I think a lot of times people don't really look out the window at the rest of the world.
19:28:12 <rbergeron> And a few other thoughts as well. I have this enormous bunch of writing that is bordering on novel-size
19:28:15 * nb is here
19:28:19 <nb> sorry for delay
19:28:21 <herlo> nb: welcome to the end
19:28:22 <gholms> #action rbergeron to write up her thoughts on "what has changed", and a few other things
19:28:25 <brunowolff> As sort of a weird idea it might be nice to some day have favors requested bulletin board for Fedora so that people can help people out doing Fedora related tasks they can't do themselves.
19:28:36 <DiscordianUK> Possibly I might have contributed some ideas
19:28:42 <misc> rbergeron: I will wait for the holywood adaptation of your blog
19:29:03 <rbergeron> I think it would be useful to know why people contribute to Fedora *right now* - what are they passionate about?
19:29:18 <brunowolff> So that when say someone appreciates mizo volunteering for some work, they can go see if mizmo has any favors requested that could be done in return.
19:29:36 <rbergeron> I wonder if a call for people to blog / write about their interests would be useful (and nice to see in general)
19:29:41 <DiscordianUK> I care about desktops, sound etc
19:29:45 <rbergeron> brunowolff: whuffieboard
19:29:50 <herlo> rbergeron: +1
19:29:58 <mizmo> theres a thread on devel list now about what people use fedora for
19:30:01 * herlo really should sit down and write a few blog posts anyway
19:30:11 * herlo doesn't want an action item, though :)
19:30:14 <mizmo> i think it would be cool to do a widespread blog thing on that
19:30:14 <rbergeron> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whuffie
19:30:22 <StillBob> If someone wants to do something for me... I want two clocks FRONT AND CENTER in the top of my GNOME3 desktop, local time and UTC.
19:30:31 <herlo> mizmo: maybe a meme
19:30:37 <mizmo> yeh
19:30:38 <StillBob> Just throwing that out there...
19:30:42 <herlo> name 3 things for which you use Fedora
19:30:45 <rbergeron> mizmo: yep. I think they're different, slightly, though - contributing and using - though largely the devel list is going to be contributors
19:30:54 <rbergeron> herlo: Fedora Haikus
19:30:56 <herlo> it could go viral and be just as useful as a blog
19:31:06 <rbergeron> Each line is a reason
19:31:16 <rbergeron> (not necessary 5/7/5 though)
19:31:19 <herlo> rbergeron: well, i was never good at those. Maybe a limerick
19:31:24 <DiscordianUK> irc, www , everything else
19:31:26 * rdieter has a hard stop, looking forward to reading meeting followup posts
19:31:38 * gholms also needs to leave now  :(
19:31:42 <rbergeron> rdieter: thanks for taking the wheel. even though i didn't give you the keys. :)
19:31:52 <mizmo> when im in nantucket, i use fedora to read devel list, and scream aloud .... _____ ______ ___
19:31:58 <herlo> he hotwired it!
19:32:08 <rbergeron> gholms: thanks for coming, you too rdieter
19:32:57 <rbergeron> herlo: Do you want to do a Fedora "3 reasons you use it" thing more in social-media land (Facebook, etc)?
19:33:19 <rbergeron> I think a lot of folks *don't* read devel list - and it would be fun and concise
19:33:29 <herlo> rbergeron: maybe
19:33:46 * herlo will think of a fun little gag that might catch on
19:33:47 <misc> if we want to have more than packagers, yes
19:33:58 <rbergeron> herlo: okay :)
19:34:17 <rbergeron> misc: exactly
19:34:33 <rbergeron> i don't think it's entirely ... representative
19:34:54 <rbergeron> a good pulse but i do'nt think we want anyone tihnking "we don't care about the rest of the groups" either.
19:34:55 <mizmo> what about 3 things you wish you could do with fedora
19:35:12 <AndyP> why i use fedora in 3 words (for twitter)
19:35:14 <mizmo> or 3 dreams you have for fedora
19:35:17 <misc> yeah, and in fact, i think packagers are over represented, in the sense people try to become packager from others team
19:35:32 <misc> AndyP: yeh, good idea
19:35:52 <AndyP> i was kidding, but i guess it could work
19:35:56 <rbergeron> IUF: (135 characters) :)
19:36:17 <misc> AndyP: worst case, the buzz doesn't work
19:36:53 <brunowolff> While we need more packagers, I think non-packager contributors are more valuable as they are harder to find.
19:37:25 <rbergeron> #IamFedora
19:38:01 <AndyP> rbergeron: seems familiar somehow :)
19:38:02 <rbergeron> brunowolff: Yep. And I think that was a lot of why we looked at user base the way we did at that point in time.
19:38:21 <herlo> mizmo: that could work
19:38:35 <brunowolff> #FedoraLetsMeBeMe
19:38:39 <herlo> I like most of these ideas
19:38:50 <rbergeron> I don't know that "make it easier" converts people to contributors, though.
19:39:00 <rbergeron> #IheartFedora
19:39:25 <rbergeron> #FedoraIs :)
19:39:34 <rbergeron> Okay, do we want to sit on that idea for a few days - maybe take it up on list?
19:39:37 <herlo> #IFFedora :D
19:39:38 <rbergeron> I can start that.
19:39:38 <DiscordianUK> Contributors is kinda vague
19:39:39 <brunowolff> But non-packagers probably find dealing with breakage harder. They aren't in as good of a position to be able to directly fix it.
19:39:54 <misc> brunowolff: I think no one like breakage
19:39:57 <rbergeron> Need a good way to find out a few bits of things: Why people care, why people use, why people contribute. :)
19:39:58 <DiscordianUK> let's return to that
19:40:05 <rbergeron> misc: yeah, but it's worse for some than for others.
19:40:08 <jreznik> #fefora
19:40:10 <misc> there is just people that care less about breakage than getting new stuff
19:40:23 <DiscordianUK> Other folks contribute to Fedora
19:40:34 <misc> but "having something that do not break" is something that everybody can agree ( IMHO )
19:40:49 <rbergeron> misc: I have spent plenty of nights being just frustrated as hell with random things.
19:41:06 <misc> rbergeron: yeah, I agree
19:41:14 <rbergeron> Having something *we want* to not break is one thing; can we promise that is another. And can we earn enough love to make up for it in the interim?
19:41:20 <brunowolff> I care about breakage, but I have a lot of practice fixing broken stuff and often don't need to wait for other people to get things working again or lose as much when stuff recovering from breakage.
19:41:30 <DiscordianUK> should we not let rbergeron go and tend to her sick child
19:41:37 <rbergeron> misc: and I'm pretty much in the category of the "non-technical contributor"
19:41:41 <brunowolff> That makes breakage less frustrating for me, than I imagine for other people.
19:41:56 <rbergeron> DiscordianUK: She's totally passed out now. I am sitting by her.
19:41:58 <misc> rbergeron: well, maybe we can had "quality" in the goal of Fedora
19:42:02 <DiscordianUK> we're well over the hour
19:42:04 <misc> add
19:42:05 <rbergeron> But yes, we're way past.
19:42:40 <mattrose> brunowolff: I'm always able to fix breakage, but that doesn't mean I don't curse and swear at Fedora when it happens
19:43:04 <mattrose> brunowolff: it just looks bad
19:43:13 <rbergeron> #action rbergeron to send note to board list regarding "ways to solicit why/how about Fedora usage/contribution from people"
19:43:26 <rbergeron> Okay, I'm going to start the countdown clock.
19:43:36 <rbergeron> Speak now if you have anything, otherwise you have approximately 87 seconds. :)
19:43:37 <DiscordianUK> I just fix what breaks on me
19:43:47 <misc> 87 is too much, give 5
19:43:54 * satellit personally I am retired  volunteer for sugarlabs.org ; sugar is fedora so I do a lot of testing and wiki writing . I am not a programmer
19:43:59 <brunowolff> But you have stayed so far. I imagine that we have lost a number of potential contributors in the past because of that. And its probably especially hurt us with people who might be good at non=packaging work we need.
19:45:20 <rbergeron> Okay, guys: thanks for coming :)
19:45:26 <rbergeron> misc: it's my favorite number. That's all.
19:45:32 <rbergeron> #endmeeting