fedora-flock-t9:302
MINUTES
16:00:48 <mitzie> #startmeeting Advocating Fedora.next by Christoph Wickert
16:00:48 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Aug  6 16:00:48 2014 UTC.  The chair is mitzie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:48 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:03:27 <mitzie> #topic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2O1bMT5a5Y
16:03:40 <markllama> Is someone transcribing?
16:03:46 <mitzie> #topic Talk
16:03:59 <mitzie> link for live streaming https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2O1bMT5a5Y
16:05:14 <markllama> Fedora is always changing .  pup -> pirut -> apt -> yum
16:05:28 <markllama> First 2.6 kernel
16:05:41 <markllama> anaconda, init -> systemd
16:05:47 <markllama> Fedora is about change.
16:06:05 <markllama> There are rumors that Fedora sucks: broken, no users....
16:06:20 <markllama> Truth is that there's a positive, strong brand, a big community
16:06:49 <markllama> The 10 years of Fedora have been a success.
16:07:05 <markllama> Fedora 20 got very positive reviews.  Some people don't like the artwork.
16:07:26 <markllama> Rumor: it's about the money! New products will only benefit Red hat
16:08:09 <markllama> Truth: breaking Fedora into different products makes sense for different user audiences.
16:08:15 <markllama> Red Hat has no interest in desktop
16:09:01 <markllama> Cloud people had trouble getting features delivered with the traditional model for example.
16:09:06 <markllama> Rumor: it's all about control.
16:09:35 <markllama> Rumur: all of the people in the working groups are only employees of Red Hat.
16:09:43 <markllama> Truth: Governance model has not changed.
16:10:00 <markllama> Many working group members are community people
16:10:12 <markllama> (Governance talk is on Saturday)
16:10:27 <markllama> People are self-nominated for the initial working groups.
16:10:32 <markllama> So why?
16:11:07 <markllama> Distributions have become boring. (to the working community)
16:12:02 <markllama> The user doesn't see what's under the hood (which is good) they're interested in applications.
16:12:20 <markllama> The change will help the working groups focus on interesting things.
16:12:52 <markllama> All major distributions have lost market share
16:13:20 <markllama> If you use search trends all major distros are declining
16:13:32 <markllama> while some custom spinoffs are increasing in niches
16:14:17 <markllama> There are millions of repos on Github.  These give developers and contributors input into the applications.
16:14:28 <markllama> This didn't exist 10 years ago
16:14:33 <markllama> Cloud!
16:14:50 <markllama> The cloud also didn't exist.  In the cloud the base distro is less important
16:15:03 <markllama> Fedora Mission statement.
16:16:06 <markllama> What is Fedora.next?
16:16:23 <markllama> It's just a term.  Umbrella for changes in the way we do Fedora
16:16:39 <markllama> It's still in flux.  It will change and respond to needs
16:17:04 <markllama> Two different proposals from Flock 2013
16:17:30 <markllama> Fedora.next: AN architecture for a more agile Fedora by Matt Marshall
16:17:58 <markllama> Streams: The fedora "Crystal Ball" where are we going for the next 5 years, by Stephan Gallagher
16:18:17 <markllama> Stephen (?) suggests the credit goes to someone else he heard speaking.
16:19:00 <markllama> The idea of Fedora.next that the farther from "core" you get the more freedom you have to innovate.
16:19:22 <markllama> The Streams concept is to have separate release paths, possibly even separate release cycles
16:19:36 <markllama> There are reservations from the production people.
16:19:53 <markllama> For example: server should change more slowly than workstation
16:20:05 <markllama> Fedora 21 will be released as threee products
16:20:35 <markllama> This means no more installation DVDs, though people are giving out dvds with some media on them.
16:20:54 <markllama> Three paths: Fedora Workstation, Fedora Cloud, Fedora Server.
16:21:06 <markllama> use netinstall or make a spin for custom installs
16:22:10 <markllama> What went into the DVDs was "random" why one window manager set and not another?
16:22:16 <markllama> What is a "Product"
16:22:29 <markllama> Products have a mission statement and a specific target audience
16:22:45 <markllama> They also have a product requirements document and technical spec.
16:22:55 <markllama> Each will have unique features not in Fedora today
16:23:49 <markllama> These features will be packaged and be installable if you start with a net installer or with a different product.
16:24:03 <markllama> Products are managed by working groups and have their own governance mode.
16:24:05 <markllama> model
16:24:24 <markllama> Fedora.next does not centralize control, but rather distributes it
16:24:38 <markllama> Christoph is a member of the Workstation group
16:25:09 <markllama> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation#Mission_Statement
16:25:32 <markllama> Are there comments regarding the technical spec?
16:25:40 <markllama> (speaker unknown, not near the mic)
16:26:03 <markllama> Considering roll out models... things you won't see in other products
16:26:26 <markllama> In Fedora 21 you won't see so much different from the existing Fedora desktop CD
16:26:31 <markllama> Then the Fedora Server
16:26:51 <markllama> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Server#Mission_Statement
16:26:58 <markllama> Server comes with a new feature "cockpit"
16:27:22 <markllama> The server can offer one or more services.  You can deploy different package groups now,
16:27:57 <markllama> But the cockpit concept "roles" will create a more comprehensive UI to control the services and to set them up properly
16:28:07 <markllama> (from a Server person in the room)
16:28:22 <markllama> The cockpit will work in an environment with no attached display.
16:28:31 <markllama> The cockpit will also be able to manage multiple servers
16:28:41 <markllama> Very strong dependency on Systemd
16:28:57 <markllama> But not all that much Fedora specific dependencies (in the cockpit)
16:29:01 <markllama> Fedora Cloud:
16:29:08 <markllama> No evident mission statement
16:29:29 <markllama> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Cloud#Role_in_Fedora
16:29:45 <markllama> The Fedora Cloud Working Group is a subset of the Fedora Cloud SIG, one of the many teams working on Fedora.
16:29:45 <markllama> The Working Group is responsible for initial and ongoing development of the Product Requirements Document, and for coordinating production of the Fedora Cloud operating system.
16:29:45 <markllama> We work with existing groups across the greater Fedora Project, and may delegate particular members to take responsibility for working with certain other teams. For example, a working group member may act as a coordinator for quality assurance or for release engineering.
16:30:00 <markllama> This is a description of the group rather than a mission statement.
16:30:14 <markllama> The specifications for cloud are way too big to put in slides.
16:30:33 <markllama> Matthew: thinks there's a more concise mission statement somewhere
16:30:45 <markllama> Basically we're making images that run in cloud environments
16:31:05 <markllama> Not just "remotely" or "far away" but capable of running in a "cattle" vs a "pet" model.
16:31:16 <markllama> Running in a cloud environment
16:31:28 <markllama> The cloud stuff scales out rather than up
16:31:47 <markllama> Fedora Cloud is creating the base images for those.  Later they will go farther up the stack.
16:31:57 <markllama> The Fedora Cloud image is a minimal installation
16:32:30 <markllama> Fedora Atomic (based on OSTree) is the other image.  All applications are installed as docker images.
16:32:43 <markllama> THe cloud group is a good example of why spins are not enough
16:33:04 <markllama> SPins guidelines say you need a basic set of packages eg anaconda
16:33:14 <markllama> For cloud images this doesn't make sense
16:33:26 <markllama> More working groups
16:33:48 <markllama> The base design working group is working to reduce the footprint of a single image
16:34:16 <markllama> The goal of Fedora Base is to provide a standard platform with common technologies, frameworks and APIs for all Fedora products.
16:34:19 <markllama> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Base#Mission_Statement
16:34:40 <markllama> We're thinking about having different bases, but that's all future
16:34:52 <markllama> The Fedora Environment and Stacks working group
16:35:34 <markllama> They are working to create different environments
16:35:45 <markllama> Currently using Software Collections
16:35:54 <markllama> This make the developer's lives easier
16:36:02 <markllama> Devs often need different versions side by side
16:36:10 <markllama> Ruby is particularly picky
16:36:21 <markllama> making installing a tool stack easier makes life easier
16:36:40 <markllama> Most devs use MacOS, we want to address them by adding easier dev environment and stacks
16:36:48 <markllama> especially on the workstation products
16:37:00 <markllama> Summary: there's been a lot of FUD
16:37:08 <markllama> Spread the good message.
16:37:22 <markllama> use the term "Fedora.next" or "Fedora dot Next" when you do so
16:37:28 <markllama> The message should be positive.
16:37:43 <markllama> Fedora strives to server new target audiences
16:37:55 <markllama> We cover more use cases
16:38:00 <markllama> but the core values have not changed.
16:38:11 <markllama> Meritocracy and flexability remain
16:38:29 <markllama> It's still fedora, but there are more changes to come
16:38:58 <markllama> Governance still needs to be addressed.  Working group gov may just be the start.
16:39:08 <markllama> Some people will be offended and want to continue with the old model
16:39:27 <markllama> The KDE special interest group would like a separate desktop product.
16:39:42 <markllama> Too late for Fedora 21, but the governing body will consider it.
16:40:04 <markllama> Each new product will have something that would not have been in the single traditional Fedora.
16:40:13 <mitzie> Any Questions?
16:40:36 <markllama> Given how much FUD we have seen we should have one baseline.
16:41:28 <markllama> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora.next
16:41:42 <markllama> Matthew writes for the Fedora Magazine every other week.
16:41:54 <mitzie> Any Questions?
16:41:55 <markllama> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN
16:42:02 <markllama> yes.  Any questions?
16:44:21 <markllama> Question: what's the future when Red Hat doesn't care about workstation and the server and cloud products really have little interest to most of the community
16:45:00 <markllama> There are people using Fedora in the cloud now, and on server installations.
16:45:58 <markllama> The product groups are working to address the needs of their audience.
16:46:12 <markllama> Comment: but the workstation uses Gnome which is meant for beginners.
16:46:44 <markllama> Christoph: we can only support one to begin with, but the position of KDE is getting better.
16:47:21 <markllama> If the KDE group adds additional benefit which is unique to the product and more than the current KDE spin then it will get considered.
16:47:36 <markllama> I don't see it now.  It won't be in F21, aiming for F22.
16:47:56 <markllama> Question re Fedora Cloud
16:48:15 <markllama> WIll you use ready to use images or will you also allow people to build their own images?
16:48:25 <markllama> Answer: right now it will only be prepared images.
16:49:04 <markllama> They are built now within a russian doll setup with Koji, image factory and anaconda.  All FOSS software but right now we're not planning on distributing that
16:49:32 <markllama> Question: What are people saying about Fedora.next? Are people enthusiastic and informed?
16:49:50 <markllama> If you've been out there, have people thrown tomatos at you if you mention Fedora.next?
16:50:06 <markllama> Most people have only heard of it once or twice.  There hasn't been much feedback.
16:50:17 <markllama> Most has come from people who care about Fedora.  most have been positive.
16:50:38 <markllama> It will really come out when Fedora 21 is released, when we say "Here's your Fedora"
16:50:54 <markllama> it will be interesting for the Cloud peoeple because they won't distribute media
16:51:05 <markllama> There are general Linux events.  They have gotten more boring
16:51:13 <markllama> All of the distros are lined up, showing the same things.
16:51:31 <markllama> This year Linuxtag was co-located with an android dev conference
16:52:13 <markllama> If we can show the people there that we have a workstation for developers there how easy it is to set up and Android dev environment (easier than windows or mac) then I'm pretty sure we can get new devs and users.
16:52:23 <markllama> The same with Openstack.  This is where we can change things.
16:52:39 <markllama> With our traditional approach I don't think we could make those changes.
16:53:00 <markllama> let's go to Pycon or Rubycon and show them why Fedora.next is an awesome distro for them.
16:53:13 <markllama> Question: Red Hat concerns from people.
16:53:45 <markllama> her advice is not to participate when people ask about Red Hat.  We don't care about Red Hat as much as people fear.
16:54:04 <markllama> When they ask about governance, and Red Hat, don't address the "red hat wants..."
16:55:02 <markllama> When people are having negative conversations about Red Hat's relationship to Fedora, don't try to explain Red Hat's position.  Fedora.next came from the community and people from the workgroups are community members
16:55:42 <markllama> COmment; we have an issue of separating Red Hat people from community people.  "RedHatters" are community members too.
16:56:07 <markllama> Quip: if you have three different people at Red Hat working on a project there are 4 opinions
16:56:43 <markllama> In Ubuntu the gap between Canonical employees and the community is even bigger.
16:57:00 <markllama> COmment: we should show that the working groups are not only red hat employees
16:57:40 <markllama> People who are just looking at the wiki and looking at the membership list are not going deeper to learn how the people work.
16:57:50 <markllama> Yet More Questions?
16:58:09 <mitzie> Thanks markllama for your contribution
16:58:14 * markllama bows
16:58:18 <markllama> now to write it up...
16:59:07 <mitzie> The video is available in the same link
16:59:12 <mitzie> #endmeeting