13:41:38 <mchua> #startmeeting
13:41:39 <zodbot> Minutes (text): http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-fad/2010-03-13/fedora-fad.2010-03-13-22.28.txt
13:41:41 <zodbot> Log:            http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-fad/2010-03-13/fedora-fad.2010-03-13-22.28.log.html
13:41:43 <zodbot> Meeting started Sun Mar 14 13:41:38 2010 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:41:45 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
13:41:57 <heffer> \o/
13:42:19 <mchua> #chair spevack VileGent stickster wonderer rbergeron rrix ke4qqq quaid heffer ianweller rharrison
13:42:20 <zodbot> Current chairs: VileGent heffer ianweller ke4qqq mchua quaid rbergeron rharrison rrix spevack stickster wonderer
13:42:28 <mchua> rharrison: hey, where are you? do you need a door-opening?
13:42:34 <rharrison> Knock, knock
13:42:37 <mchua> Marketing FAD day 2, morning! LOGS!
13:42:49 <mchua> rharrison: downstairs? I'll borrow a badge one sec
13:43:01 <rharrison> Thanks
13:43:53 <heffer> stream's not on! :D
13:44:33 <azneita> mchua: we want to get more contributors subscribing to TOSW and there's the action items (educate,bridge,etc..)
13:44:49 <azneita> it's pretty vague as it is but its a start
13:45:59 <azneita> am I oversimplifying things?
13:49:42 <mchua> azneita: ...actually, that's probably the best summary I've seen.
13:49:57 <ke4qqq> heffer: we aren't streaming today after asterisk fail yesterday :( moving back to intercall
13:50:15 <heffer> okay. today i do have a phone to call in :D
13:50:36 <azneita> those four items are what we need to do and we should agree on how we go about doing them
13:50:55 <heffer> what's the conference code?
13:52:33 <ke4qqq> conf code is here http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Community_Architecture_meetings
13:52:37 <ke4qqq> but is 2038 222 717
13:54:10 <ke4qqq> whoever just joined - can you hear us?
13:54:13 <azneita> mchua: items 1,2&3 are ambassador-type items and some sort of "training" to harmonize the message (read: like redhat story) is probably beneficial
13:54:15 <heffer> nope
13:54:25 <heffer> now i heared max
13:54:31 <rrix> that w ke4qqq
13:55:03 <heffer> i hear some babbling
13:55:20 <rrix> heffer: what is the url of red hat's mirror?
13:55:34 <heffer> rrix, mirrormanager should automatically pick that up
13:55:44 <rrix> heffer: only lists linux.redhat.ee
13:55:55 <heffer> estonia is far off :D
13:56:03 <rrix> oh, there it is
13:56:08 <rrix> red hat, not redhat
13:56:28 <rrix> it has 9, 11 and test, no 12 :(
13:56:50 <heffer> i unfortunately don't have the possibility to stay on the conference all the time because i'm at my girlfriends place and we're having the grandparents over for some CAKE :D
13:57:03 <mchua> oh hey, I should have read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marketing_plan yesterday
13:57:24 <mchua> Remotees: we're still getting microphones and stuff set up, haven't really started yet
13:57:32 <heffer> testing :D
13:57:38 <mchua> #link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marketing_plan
13:58:38 <heffer> do conference calls actually work at some point?
13:58:42 <mchua> We hope so.
13:59:01 <wonderer> mchua: now you can see: we have point 6 of the wikipedia marketing plan achieved and 1-5 we have ongoing.
13:59:08 <heffer> i never attended one that worked :)
13:59:18 <ke4qqq> heffer: depends on the goal
14:00:13 <rrix> the NCSU mirror is _FAST_
14:00:24 <rrix> an order of magnitude :)
14:01:22 <mchua> wonderer: Sweet! Yeah, I will be going through this stuff at some point when I have more breathing room... I think you've been trying to get us to speak "marketer language," and i want to try and grok that better.
14:01:29 <mchua> because we have been reinventing lots and lots of wheels.
14:01:39 <mchua> (including, I'm sure, a bunch we haven't noticed.)
14:04:51 <rbergeron> reinventing isn't necessarily bad. i think it helps people understand things better than when they just -do- the same thing everyone else does.
14:05:26 <rbergeron> when you understand exactly why things work, rather than the fact that they just work, it's a good thing. :)
14:07:43 <heffer> i dialed in :)
14:07:49 <heffer> but i'm muted atm
14:07:52 <mchua> rbergeron: agreed - though if you realize afterwards that you now grok something that other people grok, also learning to speak the language that they use to talk about it means you can tap them for more grokkiness.
14:07:53 <rrix> ahh
14:07:54 <rbergeron> can you hear us?
14:07:57 <mchua> mmm grokky
14:08:01 <heffer> since i think i won't be on the line for too long
14:08:05 <heffer> obviously yes :D
14:08:25 <heffer> but you're not talking much are you?
14:08:32 <mchua> heffer: nah, not much talking going on
14:08:33 <ke4qqq> not much - about to start
14:08:47 <mchua> #topic introducing the RH brand guys
14:09:08 <mchua> Max introducing Chris Grams and Jonathan Opp, brand wizards from RH/New Kind
14:09:14 <heffer> so if there's someone leaving the dialin that will be me as soon as my girlfriends' grandparents arrive
14:09:23 <heffer> or the VoIP at my gf's place dies again :D
14:09:33 <mchua> They did a lot of the brand stuff for Red Hat, so we're going to pick their brain on how they did that.
14:10:16 <mchua> Jopp: My role today - leading the Brand group (did i get that right?)
14:10:33 <mchua> we're going to be talking about some of the things my group does and how they relate to what we do, and how we've built our brand elements up over time.
14:10:37 <mchua> My role is to define the company's voice.
14:10:52 <mchua> Chris: I've worked with jopp for a long time.
14:11:01 <mchua> I came in 1999 to RH when there were about 100 people.
14:11:08 <mchua> 3-4 years in, I was part of the initial discussion about the naming of Fedora
14:11:20 <mchua> It was originally launched as <I missed this, help?>
14:11:30 <rrix> mchua: RHL
14:11:43 <mchua> Thanks.
14:12:03 <mchua> Chris: We ended up running across Warren Togami...
14:12:24 <mchua> The other thing Max mentioned is that I left RH about 2mo ago to a firm called New Kind, one of my partners is actually the original designer of the Fedora logo
14:12:39 <mchua> So that's my story, and I was hoping to draw that out long enough for John (Adams) to walk in
14:12:42 <mchua> (but he's not here yet)
14:12:56 <mchua> Chris: we'd like to hear from you, can you introduce yourselves, do you want us to talk about history stuff, or...
14:13:05 <mchua> ke4qqq: is there any docs behind the history of brand/logo of Fedora?
14:13:15 <mchua> Chris: Actually, there's a great wiki page on the brainstorming behind the logo
14:13:22 <mchua> "fedora logo history" wiki page
14:13:23 <spevack> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Logo/History
14:13:45 <mchua> Chris: It was a collaborative design - the process was done with the Fedora community even if one person made the final file
14:13:50 <mchua> John Adams: *walks in*
14:13:51 <spevack> can folks on the phone hear us?
14:13:52 <mchua> I work on the brand team too!
14:13:56 <mchua> I got here ~3 years ago
14:14:01 <mchua> my background is way more traditional branding
14:14:07 <mchua> I did some snack food brands before
14:14:28 <heffer> nah. grandparents just arrived. i'm off for now
14:14:32 <mchua> see ya heffer!
14:14:41 <stickster> Thanks for being here heffer, we'll have recordings available later and advertise them when they're up
14:15:04 <mchua> Everyone else is now going around and introducing themselves.
14:15:06 <heffer> great. thanks. i think i'll be around for some longer later this day.
14:15:11 <mchua> Any remotees want to say hello and intro themselves?
14:15:14 <mchua> heffer: who are you?
14:15:35 * hiemanshu is here
14:15:36 <heffer> btw. everyone but max is pretty much unintelligible on the phone :)
14:15:51 <heffer> mchua, who am i? you mean i should introduce myself now too?
14:15:58 <mchua> heffer: I just introduced you :)
14:16:09 <heffer> oh okay. nice. thanks :D
14:16:25 * mchua explaining to the RH brand guys about our transcribing setup
14:16:59 <mchua> spevack: *to RH brand guys* I emailed you last week asking... we want to learn more about branding in general, figuring out the health of the fedora brand... how do you think about whether a brand is in good shape
14:17:07 <mchua> how you go about growing and preserving the brand
14:17:11 <mchua> we have questions on the wall behind you
14:17:18 <mchua> (guys, do we have these q's transcribed anywhere?)
14:17:26 <stickster> I'll type them in to give you a break mchua
14:17:33 <heffer> just in case: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Heffer has everything you might want to know about me :D
14:17:46 <mchua> jopp: we also put some of the questions we had to think through when defining the RH brand up on the board
14:17:50 <mchua> (thank you stickster!)
14:17:57 <stickster> #info Q. How did you determine the fundamentals of the RH brand? What was that proces like? How long did it take? Is it at a steady state now? Where did the Red Hat "Brand Book" stuff come from? How was it created?
14:18:15 * mchua pulling stickster's board transcript into gobby when it's done
14:18:31 <stickster> #info Q. What is the Fedora brand, IYHO? How does it fit in Red Hat's brand strategy? Do the four foundations make sense? Do they provide a strong foundation? What shold we consider when growing the Fedora brand?
14:18:37 <mchua> jopp: maybe we should start by talking about the first version of the RH brand book.
14:18:41 <mchua> circa 2004.
14:18:45 <stickster> #info Q. What is the relationship between branding and marketing?
14:18:53 <stickster> #info Q. How do you measure success of a brand?
14:18:58 <mchua> *brand guys flip through 2004 brand book, looking for Fedora stuff, can't find it*
14:19:02 <mchua> Chris: "It's pre-Fedora"
14:19:13 <stickster> #info Q. How do you message a brand? Does that change in a many-voices community setting vs. a few-voices corporate communications setting?
14:19:23 <mchua> jopp: we have the basis of the key elements of the brand - we have the logo, shadowman - we have a typeface... really core basic elements of a brand.
14:20:03 <mchua> Everyone who comes into the company, everyone introduced to the RH brand... we want to give them a language they can use to express the brand.
14:20:14 <mchua> A language that people can go out and speak - as a chorus of voices, to amplify the message.
14:20:26 <mchua> To speak on behalf of Red Hat.
14:20:30 <mchua> So how do we make these things consistent?
14:20:31 <spevack> "Speak not as a crowd of voices, but as a chorus of voices."
14:20:48 <stickster> #info Q. What questions do you have for us? What things can we do in Fedora that might be different from those things you can do in Red Hat?
14:20:52 <mchua> spevack: This is relevant to Fedora, because we have a worldwide community, very multilingual.
14:21:12 <mchua> cgrams: the brand book was designed - never designed to be an enforcement tool, meant to be an empowerment tool.
14:21:23 <mchua> to start a conversation, to tell a story that would get people excited at being able to extend this.
14:21:34 <mchua> not "what's the set of rules for what I can and can't say."
14:21:47 <mchua> We actually split up those two things.
14:22:04 <mchua> We have two books now: "The Red Hat Story" - there are no rules in here, it's just the story.
14:22:16 <mchua> The reason why it exists.
14:22:29 <mchua> then we have a manual on brand standards, the way you'd see them at any other company.
14:22:52 <mchua> What typefaces to use, what colors, etc.
14:23:17 <stickster> Might want to think of a brand book as two parts -- one is something to empower/interest people, and the other to circumscribe how to use the brand
14:23:31 <mchua> (the "RH Story" book and the "RH brand" book just got passed out, I'm looking for the files online so remotees can haz see)
14:23:33 <stickster> Brand positioning: What is the spot in you target audience's mind that you want to own?
14:24:01 <mchua> #link http://darkmattermatters.com/2009/07/29/sharing-your-brand-story-and-heres-ours/
14:24:04 <mchua> that's the brand storybook
14:24:13 <mchua> the brand book (the thing with fonts and colors) isn't available online, sorry remotees
14:24:18 <mchua> will try to describe if there are any questions
14:25:10 <mchua> jadams: You need to figure out who you want to share all this with - what audiences, what combinations of audiences.
14:25:43 <mchua> spevack: would you agree with this statement: "brand == advertising"
14:26:09 <mchua> cgrams: the language of advertising is... something you don't trust.
14:26:22 <mchua> at RH, Brand != Marketing.
14:26:35 <mchua> In Brand, we didn't try to do it with an advertising mindset... we were trying to build it from the inside out.
14:26:46 <mchua> You figure out what the story is first.
14:26:46 <stickster> Train people in the movement to tell the story consistently
14:26:57 <mchua> It's the inside telling the outside the story.
14:27:04 <mchua> So it's a different metaphor (than normal advertising).
14:27:17 <stickster> Better term: brand impressions
14:27:26 <mchua> jadams: every time your brand impresses itself in someone's mind
14:27:43 <stickster> Every time someone interacts with your brand -- website, a person, a message -- what do you want that message to be? What do you want to convey?
14:27:44 <mchua> I think what you were getting at, spevack, is... when someone has a brand impression, what do you want them to see?
14:27:54 <stickster> Opinions are formed quickly.
14:28:06 <mchua> Thanks for transcribing, stickster - I'll try to find you a relief.
14:28:39 <stickster> Especially physical manifestations -- people will not take a long time to ingest information and figure out what it means and how it affects them.
14:28:45 <mchua> VileGent, ke4qqq, et al: can you help switch off on transcribing today, so rrix and stickster and I don't end up wearing out our fingers?
14:28:57 <ke4qqq> sure - let me know when you want me to pick up
14:29:02 <mchua> thanks, David.
14:29:05 <rrix> mchua: holler at me when you need me
14:29:16 <rrix> typing on the netbook but should be able to keep up
14:29:17 <stickster> Everyone has the power to broadcast to everyone these days. Empowering them to do it consistently is important
14:29:56 * mchua thinks transcribing in pairs sitting next to each other actually works pretty well, will try to do this with stickster now
14:30:00 <mchua> welcome, nmarques.
14:30:27 <nmarques> hi all
14:30:38 <mchua> cgrams: the "chorus" vs "crowd" distinction/metaphor is something we've been playing with for years.
14:30:48 <mchua> everyyone is playing different parts, but everyone sounds great together.
14:31:03 <mchua> and in a community, you have people doing lots of different things, but we're all together.
14:31:15 <mchua> in the same key.
14:31:21 <mchua> that was our goal - how do we turn a crowd into a chorus.
14:31:43 <mchua> jadams: there's a question about "how does this change in a many-voice community setting vs a few-voices corporate setting?"
14:32:01 <mchua> my opinion is that... a corporate communications, ubercontrolled setting - they're struggling right now.
14:32:17 <mchua> you guys are positioned, from a brand perspective, in some ways better than those big companis
14:32:20 <mchua> companies.
14:32:24 <stickster> The "few voices" setting is rapidly becoming obsolete
14:32:27 <mchua> spevack: questions or comments?
14:32:45 <mchua> stickster: I'll get the three brand guys, you get everyone else?
14:32:50 <stickster> robyn asks, "What do you think the Fedora brand is?"
14:33:06 <mchua> chris: One slide we put up is a series of logos - "when you think of this brand, what immediately comes to mind?"
14:33:13 <mchua> if I say Fedora - for me, it's "freedom"
14:33:22 <mchua> but I'm in interested in yours because you guys are living this every day.
14:33:37 <mchua> One thing you guys can do is actually do a survey and just ask people what comes to mind.
14:33:41 <mchua> *laughter from the room*
14:33:53 <mchua> *muttering about survey software not quite being up*
14:34:14 <stickster> max and ben: We could ask people to put on a board the one word they think of when they think of Fedora.
14:34:49 * stickster thinks of GNOME love board and a small parallel there. Theirs is a different goal, but it definitely gets input and results. We could do.
14:35:05 <mchua> jadams: even if you have banners with words on them, people will say different things.
14:35:24 <mchua> jopp: Look at the logo first - what do you feel like it represents, what do you feel when you look at it?
14:35:30 <stickster> GNOME love board -- people put a post-it on a bifurcated board saying what they love or don't love about GNOME
14:35:35 <mchua> I know some of the history on how the logo came about.
14:35:57 <mchua> For me, it's "people coming together to have this freedom - this best technology..."
14:36:18 <mchua> cgrams: the two things you need to look at are (1) what your audience actually values, and (2) what they believe to be delivered by you.
14:37:17 <mchua> Now you guys have taken your brand in some amazing ways.
14:37:52 <mchua> ke4qqq: What if we have people within the community or the userbase who don't consider freedom very important?
14:37:59 <mchua> Maybe they don't understand it.
14:38:22 <mchua> How do we convince them that they need free software?
14:38:31 <mchua> We talked yesterday about taking the angle of "fedora empowers you to do things."
14:38:43 <mchua> because we think maybe until you become a user, you won't care
14:38:53 <mchua> cgrams: "Freedom" is a complex topic to understand.
14:39:06 <mchua> spevack: to follow what ke4qqq  is saying... there's a vigorous debate going on around the fedora advisory board
14:39:29 <mchua> about... we have spent most of our efforts in the past few years looking to grow the contributor base.
14:39:40 <mchua> how do we get people contributing? and the freedom stance appeals strongly to those folks.
14:39:51 <mchua> part of the question is "Have we focused too much on trying to grow a contributor base"
14:39:56 <mchua> and not paid attention to users
14:40:05 <mchua> and is that "freedom" trumpet not useful to users?
14:40:11 <mchua> cgrams: great question.
14:40:21 <mchua> if I think of Freedom, I think Fedora.
14:40:34 <mchua> most people when they think of Ubuntu, they think "easy to use."
14:41:24 <mchua> Fedora *totally* pwns the "Freedom" association.
14:41:37 <mchua> jadams: another thing to look at externally - what positions has everyone else taken?
14:42:03 <mchua> you don't necessarily want to just shift gears and say "let's talk about how easy to use we are!" because there's already an incumbent.
14:42:18 <mchua> cgrams: there's something called "points of parity"
14:42:20 <mchua> what you do just as well
14:42:25 <mchua> vs the differentiators, what you do better
14:42:37 <nmarques> rbergeron, want the marketing definition of brand?
14:42:47 <mchua> stickster: let's ask VileGent and rrix to switch off with us now so you can talk about what you just wrote on the board
14:42:49 <nmarques> rbergeron, a brand is a promisse to our users. period, full stop.
14:42:52 <mchua> rrix, VileGent, can you take over?
14:42:56 <stickster> mchua: I'm not ready to talk about that
14:43:00 <stickster> I was thinking out loud.
14:43:07 <stickster> or, rather, in writing.
14:43:11 <rrix> yeah
14:43:18 * stickster will jump in when it's time.
14:43:34 <mchua> rrix, channel's yours, I"m going to scribe what Paul put on the board
14:43:38 * mchua gobbifies
14:43:43 <rrix> stickster: so, i drew a few things on the board, not sure what is really correct
14:43:54 * spevack rides shotgun for rrix
14:43:59 <rrix> what we are starting to see these days, is a network effect between the user base, and the developers of tomorrow
14:44:10 <mchua> gobby doc name: marketing-fad-brand-talk
14:44:10 <rrix> and they are doing that increasingly through ubuntu because of ease of use
14:44:17 <mchua> thank you, spevack and rrix.
14:44:29 <rrix> and you targeted it, there are precepts we are not willling to give up, eg, mp3 suport, and we are not willing to give that up
14:44:33 <rrix> for better or worse
14:44:42 <rrix> because 1) freedom 2) we need a big stack of cash
14:45:40 <rrix> spevack: interruption.. take the mp3 thing for example. there is a stance we take, and then there is the freedom foundation that forms that stance... if we had some guarantee that we wouldn't be sued, eg, by mpeg-la, would we still ship it? no, because our Freedom stance is important
14:46:31 <rrix> stickster: there are engineering aspects to fedora that we are not messaging as well as we should, the way the distro is being creaed is complicated. they are not easy to explain to people. For example, fedora's a lot better for you to run on 64 bit, that's really hard to make an impression.
14:46:50 <rrix> but as an example, that's where we have a very clear value.
14:46:59 <rrix> shifting back to the top level i was talking about
14:47:28 <rrix> thinking about the ease of use problem, it links into our developers which have been the bread and butter in the past. I'm concerned about the long term effect of our future developer base
14:47:54 <rrix> where we see at developer conferences everyone running ubuntu only because of their saturations, oops lost my train of thought...
14:48:11 <nmarques> rrix, mind if I troll with a question? define ease of usage?
14:48:27 <rrix> i guess the second point i wanted to make was that we have the chorus talking to itself more than talking to other people. we aren't effectivily defining our ease of use
14:48:35 <rrix> nmarques: when cgrams is odne talking :)
14:48:57 <rrix> cgrams: speaking with my non0-red-hat on, the biggest differentiations you are afraid of is your association with red hat
14:49:16 <stickster> rrix: note that cgrams only has a non-red hat now :-)
14:49:21 <rrix> instead of saying "this is, however youw ant to define, and you're associated with this enterprise distro"
14:49:24 <rrix> yeah
14:49:28 <rrix> cgrams is non-red-hat :)
14:49:29 <stickster> Ease of use message from Ubuntu is very powerful
14:49:48 <rrix> It seems like Fedora has always been afraid of associations
14:50:02 <rrix> <missed what ke4qqq said>
14:50:27 <stickster> ke4qqq: Trepidation is strong in the contributor community because they want to chart their own course. Fear Red Hat will destroy the community.
14:50:27 <rrix> Within the contributor community, there is the fear that RH will control and destroy the community, unstated or not
14:50:39 <rrix> stickster: It's stated... a LOT
14:51:20 <rrix> cgrams: yeah, we understand that there are definitely some tradeoffs, but let's put on our blinders as a new user. They will see the association with redhat as a Good Thing
14:51:40 <rrix> VileGent: I think we need to associate with them, but to say that we are the _future_ of them.
14:51:53 <nmarques> stickster, ubuntu is very agressive, but to be honest, the knowledge level required for ubuntu or fedora is nearly the same, unless you vi/emacs at very low level (ex: boot scripts, etc)
14:51:53 <rrix> cgrams: I don't see us doing that at all. it's kind of a badge of honor
14:52:28 <rrix> can someone else catch in, i gotta use the restroom and let me hands stop cramping
14:52:31 <rrix> ?
14:52:34 <nmarques> rrix, I disagree we are the future of redhat
14:52:40 <rrix> nmarques: we _ARE_
14:52:50 <rrix> we they branch fedora to create RHEL
14:52:56 <rrix> s/we/
14:53:04 <nmarques> rrix, at some point, but I don't its fair to go that way or use that expression
14:53:04 <rrix> ke4qqq: can you transcribe
14:53:08 <ke4qqq> rrix: yes
14:53:15 <mchua> thanks, ke4qqq.
14:53:15 <rrix> nmarques: it's the truth at any rate :)
14:53:21 <nmarques> rrix, brand notoriety on red hat is far greater than ours
14:53:21 <ke4qqq> stickster: I am really interested in exploiring the ease of use conversation
14:53:27 <ke4qqq> and look at the parity points
14:53:58 <ke4qqq> because if they are willing to subjugate freedom, our principles don't allow us as easy of a means to compete in certain areas.
14:54:12 <ke4qqq> we've defined a userbase that goes beyond what we are doing today
14:54:18 <nmarques> rrix, it's an advantage symbiotic relation, yes, no doubt... but thats a dangerous thing to say
14:54:28 <spevack> CAN FOLKS ON THE PHONE HEAR US?
14:54:33 <nmarques> rrix, my opinion anyway
14:54:34 <ke4qqq> in my mind we haven't laid out a process for how a technical policy is in place
14:55:05 <ke4qqq> we've tried to set a bracket to help us make decisions from a technical perspective
14:55:25 <ke4qqq> so we have put out 4 different charateristics of this bracket of users -
14:55:29 <ke4qqq> 1. voluntary consumer
14:55:33 <ke4qqq> 2. computer friendly
14:55:38 <ke4qqq> 3. likely collaborator
14:55:38 <mchua> nmarques: dangerous why?
14:55:45 <ke4qqq> 4. general productivity user
14:55:51 * mchua points out that the stuff on the whiteboard is transcribed in the marketing-fad-brand-talk gobby doc
14:55:56 <mchua> for those watching
14:56:09 <ke4qqq> and the above on [[User_base]]
14:56:14 <mchua> nmarques: if you have something you'd like to relay to the room, we can do it - ask brand folks q's on your behalf, etc
14:56:24 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_base
14:56:45 <ke4qqq> we can't act as Mac - where the computer is essentially a non-entity - ie we can't deliver a preinstalled machine.
14:57:31 <azneita> mchua: i'd like to re-ask how brand health is measured as time goes on
14:57:42 <ke4qqq> this definition is a superset of the people we have been historically targeted and our base contributors
14:58:03 <ke4qqq> thats a broader target than we have been trying to hit
14:58:22 <ke4qqq> and that's our attempt to spread our brand and voice to a wider audience
14:59:07 <nmarques> mchua, if we are aiming to recruit people, we need to assume that those people know as much as me (nearly nothing) about that relation (Fedora/Red Hat), or very basics which in most cases I would translate as Fedora being a bastard son of Red Hat
14:59:25 <ke4qqq> we aren't excluding people outside definition of [[User_base]] but we aren't necessarily targeting them.
15:00:08 <rrix> nmarques: http://www.redhatmagazine.com/2008/09/16/video-the-history-of-fedora/
15:00:19 <ke4qqq> we had people who came back from pycon - and noticed a lot more mac than windows, but lots of Linux people present as well, and the vast majority using $someotherspecificdistro
15:00:25 <nmarques> mchua, making a company like Red Hat (which is pointed a revelation in the industry by the media) being dependant on a community like Fedora is kinda misleading and will hurt Red Hat's brand. that's what I think, personal opinion
15:00:38 <mchua> azneita, nmarques, queued up to ask when Paul is done talking.
15:00:58 <nmarques> mchua, we should probably make us look like sisters/brothers than like father/son ;)
15:01:02 <ke4qqq> and if we aren't doing well with developers of an open source language - then we are starting to diminish
15:01:31 <pcalarco> needs a pointer to gobby connection specifics, when someone has a chance
15:01:36 <ke4qqq> stickster: drawing pictures showing adoption of Fedora
15:01:43 <mchua> pcalarco: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Gobby
15:01:46 <ke4qqq> and relation to RHEL releases
15:01:48 <nmarques> mchua, I would like to comment ke4qqq, what he is saying now
15:02:02 <mchua> nmarques: just say it, I'll relay it.
15:02:03 <ke4qqq> mchua: can u voice for nmarques
15:02:07 <mchua> Yes.
15:03:02 <nmarques> ke4qqq, it's ok that we target developers, that we aim for a "niche" called developers and be specialized on it. It's positioning anyway, nothing against it
15:03:10 <ke4qqq> we add people as RHEL release gets older - but perhaps not communicating outside ourselves
15:03:24 <ke4qqq> mchua: is reading nmarques comments
15:03:34 <mchua> VileGent: "I would say Fedora is the father of Red Hat."
15:03:36 <ke4qqq> VileGent: fedora is the father to rhel
15:03:40 <nmarques> ke4qqq, but keep in mind that future developers are today's student's
15:03:49 <pcalarco> mchua: tyvm
15:03:50 <mchua> stickster: "The son has an incredibly lucrative job"
15:04:01 <ke4qqq> spevack: it's more of an incestuous relationship
15:04:14 <nmarques> ke4qqq, if we don't approach local students like canonical is doing, we are endangering our position to the future
15:04:26 <stickster> jopp: I like the idea of broadening what a collaborator means
15:04:38 <mchua> nmarques: your comments have been relayed, the folks in the room (David and Paul transcribing) are responding to it now
15:04:38 <ke4qqq> jopp: think of fedora as innovation engine
15:04:47 <mchua> azneita: yours is coming next
15:04:47 <nmarques> ke4qqq, and as a red hat "enabler" we're not only harming ourselfs, as we are kinda doing something that can be harmful to red hat itself in the future
15:05:06 <mchua> ke4qqq: "from a user perspective, 'innovation engine' sounds a lot like a euphenism for 'beta'"
15:05:08 <ke4qqq> ke4qqq: innovation engine sounds like a euphemism for beta
15:05:20 <nmarques> ke4qqq, the more people we get using Fedora (bofh's, students, developers), the more opportunities red hat will have on the future, because those future professionals
15:05:31 <ke4qqq> VileGent: there was trepidation as fc6 was dropping of core/extras
15:05:32 <nmarques> ke4qqq, are already "flavoured" with us/red hat
15:05:45 <mchua> nmarques: ke4qqq's transcribing - type to me, I'll voice you
15:05:46 <nmarques> ke4qqq, does it make sense?
15:05:58 <ke4qqq> stickster: that was good for community
15:06:14 <ke4qqq> nmarques: yeah I am struggling to keep up - mchua can voice u
15:06:19 <stickster> Robyn: We keep talking about freedom
15:06:34 <ke4qqq> rbergeron: talking about freedom - over and over
15:06:46 <ke4qqq> and when we look at these people - they dont care
15:06:57 <stickster> Maybe the message is more uncompromising
15:06:58 <ke4qqq> perhaps we need to say that we are doing things right and not compromishing
15:07:05 <ke4qqq> compromising even
15:07:27 <ke4qqq> VileGent: we talked about workarounds for dealing with ease of use issues yesterday
15:07:50 <ke4qqq> jopp: logo is a talk bubble - giving you voice - that you may not use everyday, but you can.
15:08:17 <ke4qqq> same as in voting - you ncan vote, but won't vote everyday, or be involved in day to day decisions of govt
15:08:58 <ke4qqq> stickster: I blogged about brand coming in - and this being an opportunity to showcase the open collaboration - and noting how that isn't just a new $foo being dropped off
15:09:10 <azneita> but you believe in that gov't or the message of the govt...
15:10:06 <mchua> azneita: +1
15:10:10 <ke4qqq> stickster: the reason that is important - we can't don't want to pursue the ubuntu user base - we aren't seeking mindshare uber alles
15:10:48 <ke4qqq> we need to reseize the conversation - and what it means to be free software
15:10:59 <ke4qqq> mchua voicing stuff from chan
15:11:13 <ke4qqq> asking how brand is measured as time goes by.
15:11:15 <mchua> azneita: I just asked your question
15:11:27 <azneita> mchua: thanks
15:11:40 <ke4qqq> spevack: the vpoice that you speak of needing to established. perhaps we need to be more aggressive
15:11:51 <mchua> azneita: and jadams is going to respond as soon as spevack is finished saying... what ke4qqq just typed.
15:11:55 <ke4qqq> right now we talk about good decisions we make, and ignore others good and bad
15:12:18 <mchua> nmarques, I have your comments queued up in gobby, if you can take a look and let me know how accurate it is, I'll voice when there's a moment.
15:12:19 <ke4qqq> stickster: lets discuss that - the fs world is a collaborative world
15:12:28 <ke4qqq> and we want people to use free software even if it isn't our distro
15:12:47 <ke4qqq> spevack: it's one thing to poke microsoft in the eye, another to poke another linux distro
15:13:11 <ke4qqq> mchua reading nmarques comments
15:13:20 <ke4qqq> stepping away for 30seconds to grab a drink
15:13:52 <rrix> mchua: how do we convey that these communites are really great environments to learn, whether you are formally involved in education or not
15:14:14 <rrix> VileGent: as a member of an acedmic institution, who had to jump through five different hoops for 25 cds, I don't see how they push to unis
15:14:39 * ke4qqq is back
15:14:53 <ke4qqq> mchua: my college was a ubuntu college
15:15:02 <ke4qqq> mchua: ubuntu doesn't require as much participation
15:15:21 <ke4qqq> mchua: ubuntu gives you free stuff - fedora wants you involved
15:15:44 <ke4qqq> rbergeron: change the ease of use doesn't solve the snowball rolling down the hill
15:16:02 <ke4qqq> even if I am getting better or even better - we need something else
15:16:13 <ke4qqq> mchua: this isn't limited to students
15:16:38 <ke4qqq> rharrison: I talk about fudcon when talking about value of f/loss
15:16:45 <ke4qqq> we have probs with anaconda
15:16:59 <ke4qqq> I mention the problem at fudcon - and it's fixed after a single comment.
15:17:12 <ke4qqq> spevack: you bypassed the bullshit
15:17:52 <ke4qqq> yn1v: people occasionally feel intimidated by contributing, but people are excited about it.
15:18:39 <ke4qqq> jopp: you'll know you have nthe right answer and the culture, values, purpose all start to match - one influences the other. It's all open and transparent - that's how we develop software.
15:18:47 <ke4qqq> mchua: how do we measure brand-fu
15:18:55 * mchua circles back around to azneita's questoin of "how brand health is measured as time goes by."
15:18:59 <mchua> jadams answering
15:19:09 <ke4qqq> jadams the tendency is to think of brand as soft and fluffy
15:19:12 <ke4qqq> that's a misperception
15:19:22 <nmarques> mchua, brand in our case should be measured by "notoriety"
15:19:26 <ke4qqq> ther eis a very data driven way to measure how effective branding is
15:19:30 <mchua> azneita: if you want to comment ( nmarques too ) on what John is saying, let me know and I will voice you.
15:19:36 <stickster> You can measure that with real data, but you need to first measure what you want to achieve.
15:19:56 <stickster> s/first measure/first describe/
15:20:04 <spevack> awareness -- do people even know that I exist?
15:20:04 <ke4qqq> awareness,  consideration, trial and loyalty  - Awareness - do they know I exist
15:20:15 <spevack> Do we want Fedora to be known as a linux brand, technology brand, community brand, etc.?
15:20:24 <spevack> Are you named alongside the peole that you hope to be named alongside?
15:20:32 <stickster> "Do I come to mind?"
15:20:35 <nmarques> mchua, http://rcarrollct.wordpress.com/2009/05/28/brand-notoriety-versus-brand-integrity/
15:20:53 <mchua> nmarques: nice!
15:20:58 <stickster> "What are the top brands you associate with freedom?" Fedora might not come up. "What are the top brands you associate with Linux?" Fedora might come up there.
15:21:06 <mchua> nmarques: If you want to say something specific, just tell me the words I should read out loud to the room.
15:21:12 <ke4qqq> on awareness - fedora registers on linux, but probably not in "freedom"
15:21:38 <mchua> jadams: When I was working at Planters, we sold nuts (peanuts). We had to decide "are we a snack food brand? energy food?"
15:21:53 <mchua> What do you want to be assoicated with?
15:21:53 <nmarques> mchua, I've searched ABN/Inform the other day (www.proquest.com, proprietary) and there 2 results for Fedora (one for hats) and over 5500 for Red Hat
15:21:54 <mchua> Participation?
15:21:57 <spevack> s/decide/determine how people viewed us/
15:22:17 <nmarques> mchua, our brand completly fails in having any academical papers on it ;)
15:22:19 <ke4qqq> rbergeron: we are also marketing the project/community as well as the distro
15:22:23 <spevack> (1) Awareness
15:22:34 <mchua> nmarques: (I'm having a hard time figuring out what you want relayed, and what comments you're just directing to me in the channel)
15:22:38 <spevack> (2) Once people are aware that you exist, next is CONSIDERATION.
15:22:47 <spevack> "Would I consider using this brand?"
15:22:55 <ke4qqq> consideration: once people know u exist - then will they consider using you
15:23:07 <stickster> "In the world of products and brands, I'm down to those I'd consider"
15:23:08 <spevack> (3) TRIAL -- give it a shot!
15:23:16 <ke4qqq> trial: not asking for a lifelong relationship, just to  try you out.
15:23:28 <stickster> Once you've experienced it ...
15:23:31 <spevack> (4) LOYALTY -- repeat
15:23:37 <nmarques> mchua, brb, I'll gather some ammunition meanwhile, but need some minutes, phone call
15:23:46 <spevack> encompasses recommendations and referrals
15:23:48 <ke4qqq> loyalty - once you've had a taste - would you try it again.
15:24:02 <stickster> Now on to how to measure brand impact
15:24:19 <stickster> There are research companies that do this on a grand scale through surveying and other methodologies
15:24:24 <stickster> How do we get to what people really think about Fedora?
15:24:30 <mchua> nmarques: Ok - thanks for being really patient with this. It's hard to proxy between a fast-moving IRL convo and an IRC channel.l
15:24:35 <stickster> e.g. Analyze the last 500 responses on Twitter about Fedora
15:24:46 <ke4qqq> how do we get to what people think about - last 500 on twitter
15:24:56 <stickster> jadams: Don't be too narrow about definitions of research. Everything does not need to be a huge survey, asking the right questions... gather data to gain impressions
15:25:36 <stickster> Measurement by trait helps
15:26:38 * mchua wonders if it would help for us to take 5-10m to brainstorm metrics we could gather
15:26:45 <ke4qqq> stickster: q about data gathering - we talked yesterday about the amount of channels that are out there (irc, blogs, social netowkring) and offer our users a way to offer feedback. They tend to be more motivated by negative feelings than positive feelings. How to do you filter that to make sure that you aren't...
15:26:57 <ke4qqq> getting the intense feeling that the audience hates you
15:27:57 <ke4qqq> raw data needs to be supplemented to overcome natural predilection to pass on negative info
15:28:15 <stickster> Max asks, "Can you share a question that you might ask in the context of Red Hat, asked consistently over years"
15:28:16 <ke4qqq> spevack: asking for a survey question that has gotten better or worse every year
15:28:23 <stickster> ke4qqq, sorry :-D
15:28:28 <ke4qqq> stickster: np
15:28:46 <ke4qqq> rbergeron: you never write a review of a really great curling iron
15:29:40 <ke4qqq> RHT asks a question every year - who will be influence the direction of technology in the next 10yrs
15:29:50 <ke4qqq> tell us the brands.....
15:29:57 <ke4qqq> asking that question for last 3 years
15:30:23 <ke4qqq> w/o context - don't know of it's consumer/b2b software/hw etc.
15:30:36 <ke4qqq> 60% say microsoft....
15:30:47 <ke4qqq> Google has been on the increase
15:30:56 <stickster> Otherwise pretty consistent year-to-year for now
15:31:02 <stickster> Big brands are big brands
15:31:05 <ke4qqq> branding is a long term strategy
15:31:48 <ke4qqq> can you look at media and miss the brands
15:32:08 <ke4qqq> have to make sure data is good data
15:32:18 <ke4qqq> who do we want to take our survey
15:32:34 <stickster> Filter through screening whose answers are important
15:33:20 <ke4qqq> measure, and measure consistently
15:33:33 <mchua> ^^ cgrams's "most concise answer" to azneita's question
15:33:49 <ke4qqq> must be consistent - even in rapidly changing sectors
15:33:58 <ke4qqq> above is for tracking survey
15:34:10 <mchua> same questions, same date, etc. - pick what you're going to ask and stick to it.
15:34:19 <ke4qqq> when people are complaining - they complain because they feel they have a chance to change it.
15:34:22 <stickster> When people are complaining, it may be because they believe they have no power to change
15:34:39 <stickster> jopp: Ambivalence would be worse
15:34:59 * mchua suggests quick 10m brainstorm on "what data points can we gather now"
15:35:29 <ke4qqq> 5 minute break impending
15:35:35 <mchua> followed by brainstorm
15:35:38 <mchua> remotees take note ;)
15:36:03 <mchua> spevack: "we have about 30m left with these guys, what do we want to do?"
15:36:23 <mchua> ke4qqq: "can we get some direction on what we need to be targeting?"
15:36:29 <VileGent> ke4qqq, we need to get out of the contributor mind set
15:36:36 <mchua> cgrams: can I ask some questions?
15:36:41 <mchua> 1. how many fedora ambassadors do you have?
15:37:02 <mchua> whoops - "how many are just ambassadors, just users, not contributors in other ways?
15:37:15 <mchua> stickster: ambassadors /are/ contributors, how many are doing other things?
15:37:26 <mchua> I'd say maybe 1/3 of ambassadors do something else within community
15:37:32 <mchua> ke4qqq: there's pull within the community to make that greater
15:37:52 <mchua> spevack: I think the "ambassador" word is a false distinction, a good fedora presence at any event is going to have people who are other kinds of contributors too
15:38:07 <mchua> cgrams: the reason I asked is "is there an opportunity to ask those people who are *not* devs but who are ambassadors why?"
15:38:23 <mchua> the other question:
15:38:26 <mchua> 2. desktop vs server
15:38:37 <mchua> do you have any data on fedora usage - how much is desktop vs how much is server?
15:38:41 <mchua> stickster: we don't have any way of recording what's installed.
15:38:54 <mchua> *people rummaging to find statistics*
15:39:01 <mchua> *looking in smolt*
15:39:18 <mchua> cgrams: my gut feel was that it's more towards server, even on the user side
15:39:53 <rbergeron> #link http://www.ubuntu.com/system/files/u1/server_report_v2.pdf
15:39:55 <mchua> stickster: according to smolt, 95% of the 240 responses in smolt say desktop, but the desktop gui also prompts you to send smolt data on install, so....
15:40:08 <mchua> rbergeron: yeah, that was beautiful (and done by a third-party marketing consuting group ;)
15:41:02 <mchua> stickster: one of our consistent communication points is that we anti-encourage people to use fedora on production servers b/c of the short lifespan
15:41:15 <mchua> we encourage them to use fedora as a preview of server tech
15:42:54 <mchua> stickster: can you transcribe jadams?
15:43:04 <mchua> I want to call everyone's attention to the clock next
15:43:20 <stickster> jadams: I've seen frameworks where you have a user base defined, and then you start developing insights about that audience
15:43:54 <stickster> Once you have those in hand, then you think about the benefits of your product. "We know that X Y and Z are compelling, and we can match or exceed those things with A B and C."
15:44:18 <stickster> Proof points -- "The reasons we can back that up are the following tangible things we can point to."
15:44:54 <stickster> mchua: spevack: I wonder whether our next 10-minute brainstorm might work well with that framework?
15:46:02 <mchua> spevack: asking one last question before we break for 5m before brainstorm
15:46:18 <mchua> spevack: "At what point do you think Fedora might be reaching a steady-state in its branding?'
15:46:56 <stickster> jadams: We've been doing that for Red Hat for 10 years
15:46:57 <stickster> oops
15:47:07 <stickster> s/jadams/cgrams/
15:47:19 <stickster> cgrams: It takes a very long time to build a brand.
15:47:26 <stickster> You must have patience, there are no short cuts.
15:47:35 <stickster> The key is that you don't get anywhere without repeating the same things over and over.
15:47:57 * mchua proposed 5m break, then brainstorm, with the intent of circling back on this convo towards the end of the release cycle and seeing where we stand, where we are... we like picking chris/jonathan/john's brains ;)
15:48:12 <stickster> #1 association of Red Hat brand is with Linux
15:48:27 <mchua> brainstorming on concrete things to execute on and measure, within the frameworks that john and chris and jonathan have given us today, that is
15:48:30 <stickster> Work on associating Red Hat with open source has been going on ~9 years
15:48:34 <stickster> It's still developing
15:48:41 <stickster> It can be 5, 10 years before it's really accepted.
15:48:54 <mchua> and one litmus test is "do people in this room even agree on it?"
15:49:00 <mchua> because if everyone in this room isn't on the same page, that says something
15:49:58 <mchua> jadams: part of the marketing instinct is "OO NEW STUFF!"
15:50:13 <mchua> but people using your stuff every day don't care so much about new and fresh sometimes. they're using it, it works.
15:50:23 <mchua> so you have to fight the "oo we have to do something new, fresh, etc." all the time instinct
15:50:34 <mchua> you have to make sure your stuff works for people *now*
15:50:42 <stickster> "BE TIMELESS."
15:50:53 * wonderer4711 thinking of ... does max ordered the lunch already...?!
15:50:56 * mchua calls TIME
15:51:30 <mchua> stickster, spevack: ten minutes to noon
15:51:58 <VileGent> beat the drum for the 4f's
15:52:35 * mchua loves this conversation but we also need to wind down
15:52:43 <wonderer4711> +1
15:52:48 <stickster> Know the difference between strategy and messaging
15:53:13 <wonderer4711> rrix: poke to your left and get spevack order fooood!
15:53:29 <stickster> The "in" for Fedora may not be freedom. Maybe it's features, for instance, but it doesn't mean your brand is all about features.
15:53:30 <wonderer4711> :)
15:53:33 <rrix> yn1v: poke to your left and get spevack to order fooooo!
16:00:21 <ianweller> ke4qqq: github has an issues page, if that suits your fancy
16:00:24 <ianweller> ke4qqq: otherwise emails are fine
16:00:37 <ianweller> ke4qqq: patches are even better
16:00:38 <ianweller> :)
16:02:04 <ke4qqq> done hours ago ianweller
16:02:28 <ke4qqq> I'll look at patches - but tried multiple pages during breakfast and it pukes ponies on them all
16:07:43 <smooge> hello guys.. I am here for a bit. Has there been anything that came up that might need some Questions/Answers from Infrastructure?
16:08:01 * ke4qqq wishes you had used fh.o instead of github
16:08:03 <rrix> hiya smooge
16:08:14 <rrix> smooge: currently? imo not today.
16:08:20 <ke4qqq> smooge: welcome - our talks this am have been pretty ethereal
16:08:24 <rrix> but you're welcome to hang out anyways :>
16:08:28 <smooge> ok thank you.
16:19:19 <mchua> Hey smooge, ianweller, SMParrish, other remote folks!
16:19:22 <mchua> #topic brainstorm
16:19:35 <mchua> I'm going to explain our brainstorm setup here, before I tell the crew.
16:21:29 <smooge> ok
16:21:44 <smooge> mchua, sorry for the delay on my part :)
16:22:11 <smooge> hmmm with all the people who flew in from the Southwest.. we should do the next one there.
16:23:30 <mchua> smooge: :D
16:23:32 <mchua> no objections
16:23:36 <mchua> Brainstorm setup:
16:23:41 <mchua> Brainstorming rules - there are 3.
16:23:45 <mchua> 1. Capture. Everything.
16:23:49 <mchua> If you have an idea, say it.
16:24:01 <mchua> If you're remote, that's going to be in gobby (doc name is marketing-fad-brainstorm).
16:24:16 <mchua> If you're in person, that's on the board, and someone will proxy it to gobby.
16:24:32 <mchua> 2. Yes-and. (Build on ideas, don't criticize them; we filter later.)
16:24:51 <mchua> 3. All participants are equal. (We have remotees! Be aware of this! We will make sure we proxy at all times!)
16:25:02 <mchua> smooge, ianweller, quaid, hiemanshu... we want you folks here, too.
16:26:34 <hiemanshu> mchua: was out for dinner, here now
16:27:30 <smooge> mchua, trying to remember where the gobby password is :)
16:27:40 <mchua> smooge: [[Gobby]] has details
16:28:25 <hiemanshu> smooge: fedorapeople.org ~lmacken/gobby
16:30:10 <smooge> in like flynn
16:30:45 <smooge> oh wait.. that means something completely different than I thought
16:30:46 <hiemanshu> smooge: i see you :)
16:32:26 <mchua> Okay, we're just waiting for the in-person FADders to return to start.
16:32:36 <mchua> I'm going to be driving the brainstorming, and I'm going to be driving it pretty strongly and very clearly
16:32:45 <mchua> because I want to have everyone on the same single coherent thread that's loggable
16:32:48 <mchua> both for us later
16:32:49 <mchua> and for remotees now
16:34:59 <hiemanshu> mchua: I will be half here, in the middle of college work
16:36:24 <mchua> Noted.
16:40:15 <mchua> Remote folks - people are taking a long time to trickle back in. We're still sitting around and munching.
16:40:31 <mchua> But if you have any thoughts or questions or anything like that... how we can make this better, easier for you, etc, PLEASE SAY SO
16:40:43 * mchua trying *really* hard to keep remotees in the loop for this FAD
16:42:21 <mchua> Ok. Turns out that David's gone for batteries, and pizza is on the way, so we're going to be checking in again in 20m to see if food's here and people are back.
16:42:24 <mchua> #topic BREAK TIME
16:42:28 <mchua> So, 1pm EST.
16:44:04 <smooge> mchua, no problem. thank you for your help in keeping us in the loop.
16:44:37 <smooge> mchua, one of the things about being remote is that other things creep in (like the dog needing to walk, and the kid wanting to play games.. oh and that chore list I just got handed) :)
16:53:38 <VileGent> rrix IS AWESOME!!!
16:54:11 <rrix> I agree
16:54:31 <rrix> VileGent: see, spevack locks his workstation
16:55:06 <spevack> rrix: ???
16:55:36 <spevack> mchua: noms have arrived
16:55:56 <mchua> NOMS
16:55:58 <rrix> spevack: i was playing with VileGent's laptop :P
17:00:43 <mchua> Wrapping up a bit of writing, back in the room for brainstorm-fu in a moment.
17:00:47 * mchua getting brain together.
17:00:55 <mchua> also admiring the lovely weather we have here.
17:03:08 * rrix admires the lovely window we have here.
17:03:22 <wonderer4711> mchua: Ok, you are to late. pizza is all gone .... NOT.
17:03:58 <mchua> heh, I'm coming back, I'm coming back
17:05:09 <hiemanshu> wonderer4711: you add the not in the next line :)
17:06:05 <rrix> NOT
17:06:11 <stickster> Remote folks: everyone here is eating a quick lunch and as soon as mchua is back we'll be returning to duty
17:06:54 <smooge> wow you guys are eating late
17:07:32 <heffer> smooge, well it's about time for dinner :D
17:08:01 <rrix> 1pm?
17:08:08 <rrix> not really
17:08:10 <heffer> FALSE!
17:08:11 <smooge> yeah.. the kitchen is cooking corned beef hash..
17:08:15 <heffer> 6pm
17:08:21 <rrix> we ate at 2 yesterday :)
17:08:30 <hiemanshu> 10:38 PM here
17:09:00 <herlo> is the stream live?
17:09:03 <rbergeron> mmmmm food
17:09:04 <wonderer4711> heffer: you are out. drink more Mate :-D
17:09:06 <rrix> gah, this is confiusing, heffer is supposed to be 8 hours ahead, and hiemanshu 11.5 ;)
17:09:07 * herlo just awoke...
17:09:12 <rrix> herlo: not atm, we're replacing batteries
17:09:17 <heffer> we have a roast pork in the oven atm :D
17:09:18 <rrix> they lasted about an hour or two :)
17:09:22 <hiemanshu> smooge: I always have breakfast at 12PM and lunch at 5PM :)
17:09:35 <herlo> rrix: batteries for what?
17:09:39 <rrix> herlo: mics
17:09:43 <mchua> I'm coming back, I'm coming back...
17:09:47 * mchua tends to get into writing-mode
17:09:48 <heffer> herlo, btw do we have something similar to the Debian Audio/Video team? i know you're involved with that stuff :)
17:09:51 <herlo> oh, thought you guys were using the speaker phone...
17:09:52 <hiemanshu> rrix: setup a nice watch plasma :)
17:10:05 <hiemanshu> s/watch/clock
17:10:11 <rrix> hiemanshu: i haz one, but not on the netbook :)
17:10:12 <herlo> heffer: sorta.  it's not really formal.  We tried to get it going once...
17:10:21 <heffer> and it didn't work out?
17:10:29 <rrix> owie
17:10:36 <herlo> eh, not the focus I was looking for
17:10:39 <rrix> i guess we are streaming
17:10:51 * mchua walking on over
17:10:59 <herlo> it was more for development, and not providing services to the rest of the community
17:11:11 <heffer> herlo, okay so lets form a team then :D
17:11:35 <herlo> heffer: :)
17:11:41 <herlo> rrix: what's the url?
17:11:47 <rrix> herlo: /topic
17:11:51 <hiemanshu> herlo, heffer : Count me in :D
17:11:57 * herlo is looking at http://asterisk{1,2}:8080
17:11:59 <rrix> not streaming, i guess, you have to dialin to the commarch
17:12:03 <herlo> rrix: /topic doesn't have it...
17:12:09 <heffer> herlo, it does
17:12:16 <hiemanshu> it doesnt
17:12:17 <herlo> heffer: not for streaming
17:12:20 <rrix> herlo: we were having some asterisk issues yesterday and moved to the commarch lines
17:12:21 <heffer> see the commarch wiki page for dialin access
17:12:27 <herlo> rrix: cool, nw
17:12:30 <hiemanshu> http://talk.fedoraproject.org:8000/status.xsl
17:12:31 <heffer> they're on intercall atm
17:12:49 <herlo> hiemanshu: when did the ns get setup to do that?
17:12:59 <herlo> very nice btw
17:13:17 <hiemanshu> herlo: ns?
17:13:21 <herlo> name servers
17:13:36 <hiemanshu> herlo: I dont remember when this happened
17:13:41 <herlo> hiemanshu: nw
17:13:41 <hiemanshu> But I can check the log if you like
17:13:43 <rrix> sound shoud be a lot better, stickster just did some magic fixings
17:13:47 <herlo> hiemanshu: nah
17:13:55 <rrix> (aka adjust dials to not be -10dB ;)
17:14:00 * herlo just wanted to listen...
17:14:05 <herlo> not participate so much
17:14:16 * herlo is busy working on freeseer
17:14:24 <rrix> yay4freeseer
17:14:51 <hiemanshu> Sad part is the company I work for gives me a US number (DID) but I dont have a mic to be able to talk via that
17:15:17 <rrix> heh
17:15:40 <hiemanshu> I bought one but that doesn't work, I will have to get it replaced
17:15:48 <rrix> hiemanshu: we can probably hook you up with .in dial-in if you want to participate
17:16:08 <hiemanshu> rrix: there is one I think
17:16:15 <mchua> Mic setup happening...
17:17:33 * hiemanshu wonders whether to dial in or not
17:17:50 <rrix> yesss
17:17:52 <mchua> Okay, I'm going to gear up the brainstorm now.
17:17:59 <mchua> #topic BRAINSTORM TIME WOOO
17:18:39 <hiemanshu> #info mchua gears up for the brainstorm
17:22:16 * threethirty is finally awake
17:22:25 <stickster> The audio feed sounds much better today.
17:26:25 <rrix> threethirty: dial in in the topic
17:26:48 <rrix> also, gobby, marketing-fad-brainstorm
17:32:01 * threethirty is pumped for freeseer
17:33:33 <VileGent> if you help getting in gobby pm me
17:34:38 <mchua> We're brainstorming directly in gobby
17:34:42 <mchua> so remotees, you're on parity with us
17:34:47 <mchua> right now: === Awareness ===
17:35:20 <mchua> both ==== Associations ==== and ==== How strong? ====
17:36:09 <VileGent> mchua,  i will handle here
17:36:27 <VileGent> we are on gobby.fedoraproject.org
17:36:37 <VileGent> if you need help let me know
17:40:50 <mchua> thanks, VileGent!
17:42:08 <mchua> Moving on to the === Consideration === section
17:43:07 <hiemanshu> mchua: you can enter the  moving on part in the gobby chat
17:43:18 <hiemanshu> so people dont have to keep looking at two places :)
17:44:07 * ianweller is back
17:44:16 * mchua not using gobby chat
17:44:21 <mchua> it's not logged ;)
17:44:29 <mchua> if someone else wants to shout out there, though, doooo it
17:44:36 * threethirty has not gotten to to gobby yet
17:44:41 <hiemanshu> mchua: copy and paste :)
17:44:43 <ke4qqq> threethirty: get on gobby
17:44:49 <ke4qqq> :)
17:44:56 <VileGent> i am working with him on that
17:45:26 <stickster> We are now adding possibilities for measurement of consideration (still in gobby)
17:56:06 <stickster> hiemanshu: I think we may have inadvertently confused you
17:56:25 <VileGent> time
17:56:48 <stickster> We are trying to capture the actions that the Marketing team should take to MEASURE why people try/don't try Fedora.
17:57:14 <mchua> We're taking a pause to explain things to folks in this channel.
17:57:46 <mchua> So, for instance, "put a whiteboard in the elevator and put the question on it "what do you think of fedora - write ONE word here"" is an example
17:57:56 <stickster> We want to measure the *effects* of what we're doing
17:57:57 <mchua> of something actionable Marketing can *do* to *measure* how our brand is doing
17:58:44 <threethirty> who skrieked?
17:59:01 <spevack> http://fedoraproject.org/awstats/
17:59:21 <mchua> as opposed to something we can do to spread our brand (good, but outside the scope of this brainstorm)
17:59:28 <hiemanshu> stickster: Seing people around me that is way I can help measure, not sure about other countries, but i am talking from the prespective of Indians
17:59:48 <mchua> And for folks who missed this earlier: we're doing everything in the marketing-fad-brainstorm gobby doc
17:59:53 <stickster> hiemanshu: How are yo ugoing to measure that?
18:00:00 <mchua> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Gobby
18:00:06 <VileGent> hiemanshu,  so how can we measure if some has tried fedora
18:00:27 <stickster> hiemanshu: For instance, you might decide to:
18:00:30 <stickster> * do a survey
18:00:36 <stickster> * ask casual questions and write down the answers
18:00:42 <spevack> yn1v: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/YumUpgradeFaq
18:01:08 <hiemanshu> stickster: Casual question with students or employees
18:01:23 <mchua> Starting on the === Loyalty === section.
18:01:24 <mchua> Go!
18:01:39 <stickster> hiemanshu: Great, *that* is what we want for the Gobby doc. Look at the list and if you don't see that, add it
18:08:08 <mchua> Wrapping up ===Loyalty ===
18:08:17 <mchua> Any last minute thoughts on any of these brand metrics?
18:10:00 <mchua> Ok, what we're going to do now is pause for a second.
18:10:09 <mchua> The other people in the room are taking a pass through the ideas we've just dumped
18:10:22 <mchua> and doing a quality filter on them - making sure that everything is an actionable metric-gathering point
18:10:28 <mchua> and I'm sitting here explaining what is going on to everybody else. :)
18:10:33 <mchua> So, um... what's going on?
18:10:46 <mchua> You may notice on line 117 we have another header titled "Looking at our [[User base]]..."
18:10:57 <mchua> that would be referring to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_base
18:11:13 <mchua> This is a framework that the RH brand folks (John Adams, Chris Grams, Jonathan Opp) gave us when they were here that we found helpful.
18:11:18 <mchua> Basically - we've already got this userbase defined.
18:11:25 <mchua> This is our intended audience.
18:11:33 <mchua> And we are asking 3 questions about that audience.
18:11:47 <mchua> 1. How do we get insights on them? (How they think, what they do, what they need and want, what they see, etc?)
18:12:10 <nmarques> mchua, I have something I want to show this list related to recruiting programmers
18:12:16 <mchua> Again, measurable, actionable metrics stuff here, like "run a series of podcast interviews with new Fedora users who are not contributors, that we meet at Events booths."
18:12:16 <nmarques> mchua, a pratical case
18:12:26 <mchua> nmarques: if it fits into the brainstorm, put it in. If not, send it to the list and we'll pick up on it later.
18:12:34 <stickster> mchua: nmarques: +1
18:12:51 <mchua> 2. Existing points of parity ("what do we do just as well as other options?" for instance, "you can browse the web with fedora")
18:12:58 <mchua> and difference - which is "what do we do *better*?"
18:13:06 <mchua> and how do we prove that we have these points of parity and difference?
18:13:08 <mchua> And then the third
18:13:21 <mchua> 3. What are our blind spots for #1 and #2, how can we find out more?
18:13:35 <mchua> We'll tackle each of these three sections, one at a time, starting with "how do we get insights on this audience."
18:13:43 <mchua> We'll holler when we start and stop each section.
18:14:12 <mchua> Whoops. "blind spots" only apply to #2 - "how do we find more (points of parity, points of difference)"?
18:14:19 <mchua> So, ah... remote folks, does this make sense?
18:14:27 <mchua> We're just throwing out ideas in gobby (marketing-fad-brainstorm doc)
18:14:47 <mchua> capture everything that fits the "actionable metrics-gathering" criteria
18:14:55 <mchua> figure out what's actually a good idea later ;)
18:15:21 <mchua> Aaaaand START!
18:15:28 <mchua> === How can we get insights on this audience? === section
18:15:46 <mchua> And people in the room please call your ideas out loud as you write them.
18:16:01 <VileGent> how do we get insights on user base
18:20:59 <mchua> threethirty: you're on fire! this is awesome!
18:21:14 <threethirty> mchua: thats not me... wish it was tho
18:25:23 * mchua notes that the #1 referral to fedorahosted is a link from the ubuntu forums pointing people towards liveusb-creator to use for making ubuntu liveusbs.
18:26:11 <mchua> We're going to do one more minute on "how do we get insights?" and then we're going to move on.
18:26:37 <threethirty> lol i think nelson has a novel hes working on :)
18:26:55 <mchua> nmarques: oh my gosh, this is awesome
18:27:06 <mchua> TIME UP
18:27:08 <mchua> move on
18:27:18 <mchua> Points of parity and difference and how to prove them
18:27:19 <mchua> GO
18:27:22 <threethirty> nmarques: you need to type faster :)
18:27:24 <VileGent> stop
18:27:29 <mchua> === What are our existing points of parity and difference, and how do we prove them? ===
18:27:42 <nmarques> mchua ?
18:27:44 <VileGent> ke4qqq, lets talk about parity
18:28:23 <nmarques> threethirty, I can't cover in 3 minutes a whole concept based on my 3rd party lurking ;)
18:28:44 <nmarques> mchua, I want to post something in this channel (partial email) as an example
18:28:52 <nmarques> mchua, and if possible point everyone to read it
18:29:00 <nmarques> mchua, because this stuff is juicy
18:29:20 <mchua> go for it, nmarques - just remember that most of us are mid-brainstorm and may be slow to respond unless it fits into the brainstorm flow.
18:29:31 <nmarques> ok
18:29:34 <mchua> We're not capturing everything, but it's a start :)
18:29:47 <nmarques> Currently I don't program in GNOME/GTK.  I have no idea how people
18:29:47 <nmarques> actually *are*, since GNOME has (almost by intention) no approved
18:29:47 <nmarques> development environment (a liveCD full of every Linux development tool
18:29:47 <nmarques> known does not count).  I assume most of them are probably just
18:29:47 <nmarques> writing their code by hand in Vi and passing esoteric arguments to
18:29:48 <nmarques> GCC.  Serious, I have no idea how real GNOME developers program in
18:29:49 <nmarques> GNOME - and my guesses aren't flattering.  [If it's anywhere near my
18:29:51 <nmarques> guess, then no, I won't be programming in GNOME anytime soon.  And I
18:29:53 <nmarques> can use Vi just fine, and GCC with some effort.]
18:29:55 <nmarques> In other words, I think I have to be an alpha-dog developer, and
18:29:57 <nmarques> nothing I've seen convinced me otherwise.  There's just too much crud
18:29:59 <nmarques> to wade through, pulling together API references, documents on GUI
18:30:01 <nmarques> design, etc. (I still have no idea what GtkBuilder is, and if I should
18:30:05 <nmarques> even still try making a GUI in Glade or not.  I hope you guys really
18:30:07 <nmarques> don't write the XML by hand now.)  And any tutorial that
18:30:09 <nmarques> starts with describing how to manage and link my object files on the
18:30:11 <nmarques> command line isn't going to convince me otherwise.
18:30:13 <nmarques> -----------------
18:30:15 <nmarques> removed from gnome mailing lists
18:30:15 <stickster> nmarques: Actually many of them use gedit.
18:30:18 <nmarques> that shows a very clear concern of a programmer who wants to start contributing
18:30:30 <stickster> gedit == GTK based default text editor in GNOME.
18:31:04 <nmarques> that email and it's essence
18:31:10 <nmarques> should be a clear indicator to us
18:31:13 <nmarques> ;)
18:31:30 <nmarques> I am sure that many things that apply to GNOME, should apply to Fedora aswell
18:31:49 <nmarques> this kind of feedback related to Fedora would allow us to be far more efficient engaging this audience ;)
18:32:15 <nmarques> keep in mind I'm not a programmer ;)
18:32:49 <nmarques> do we suffer from the same syndroms as those programmers? (potential users for us)
18:33:55 <spevack> stickster: WTF in February 2010?  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics#Edits_to_Fedora_wiki
18:34:48 <ke4qqq> ianweller: see above stat - why?
18:34:57 <ianweller> i *knew* someone was going to highlight me
18:36:03 <spevack> rbergeron: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics
18:36:15 <ianweller> hold on let me write a script to download all the edit summaries in feb 2010
18:36:23 <spevack> go ianweller go!
18:36:34 <nmarques> stickster, gedit? lack of taste ;)
18:36:39 <mchua> ONE MINUTE LEFT
18:36:59 <mchua> TIME UP
18:39:50 <mchua> (remotees: we're discussing what to do next)
18:40:41 <ianweller> (ok)
18:40:43 <mchua> Okay, we're going to skip the "how to find more" section
18:40:52 <VileGent> we are moving to the 4 fs section in gobby
18:40:54 <mchua> because we've already covered that exhaustively in previous sections (how to get feedback, etc)
18:41:03 <mchua> What we are NOT doing with the 4 F's section is redefining what they are.
18:41:13 <mchua> That's done:
18:41:18 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundations
18:42:05 <stickster> Do not answer the question "What does this mean?"
18:42:11 <mchua> I think what I would like to do is have - before each foundation, let's everyone read the https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundations section for that foundation
18:42:14 <stickster> Answer the question "Why is this *important*?"
18:42:25 <herlo> ke4qqq: too many pics of you
18:42:34 <ke4qqq> herlo: they won't leave me alone
18:42:37 <herlo> tell rbergeron to stop, it hurts my eyes :)
18:42:43 <ke4qqq> keep taking pictures
18:42:46 <herlo> ke4qqq: hehe, I know...
18:42:47 <rbergeron> awe.  you can -never- have too many pics of ke4qqq.
18:42:47 <mchua> iow, "this describes what Freedom *is* but why do we *care*"
18:42:58 <VileGent> cause a camera come out and he runs away and the primal instint is to chase
18:43:00 <herlo> rbergeron: keep doing it :)
18:43:02 <mchua> and then the second question for each foundation - we'll get to each of these in turn
18:43:07 <ke4qqq> rbergeron: any picture is too many
18:43:24 <mchua> is "what do we already do in the fedora community or distribution that would prove to a neutral observer that we actually do value that thing."
18:43:46 <mchua> And the third is "who else would care about this foundation (outside or overlapping with the Fedora community) and how do we find them and reach them?"
18:43:50 <mchua> Does that make sense?
18:44:17 <mchua> (thank you to people in the room for being super patient about letting remotees catch up)
18:44:21 <mchua> Ready?
18:44:29 <mchua> Okay! FREEDOM
18:44:31 <VileGent> GO
18:44:38 <mchua> everyone read https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundations section about Freedom
18:44:52 <mchua> And then start filling in the === Freedom === sections
18:56:34 * stickster hopes we can stay on topic in brainstorming.
18:57:41 <mchua> TIME!
18:57:43 <mchua> Next foundation!
18:57:57 <mchua> === Friends ===
18:58:03 * hiemanshu has to leave now
18:58:10 <mchua> Again, start out by reading the section in https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundations, then go for it in gobby
18:58:12 <VileGent> hiemanshu,  thanks for your input
18:58:14 <mchua> see ya, hiemanshu - thanks for coming!
19:04:47 * mchua and stickster noting that we don't have many things in the "what other groups care about this?" and "what do we already do in fedora?" sections
19:04:50 <mchua> people filling those in
19:07:04 <mchua> 3:44 left
19:11:50 <mchua> TIME!
19:12:57 <mchua> === Features ===
19:13:01 <VileGent> Features go
19:13:03 <mchua> again, read https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundations first
19:24:27 <mchua> TIME
19:24:28 <mchua> We're tired
19:24:30 <rrix> break until threethirty :)
19:24:32 <mchua> we're going to take a break until 3:30
19:24:41 <mchua> that is, 6m
19:24:45 <mchua> and then tackle "First"
19:24:59 <wonderer> rrix: you got a FB Invitation ;-)
19:25:05 <rrix> orly?
19:25:29 <mchua> ya rly!
19:27:17 <rrix> epic win is epic!
19:30:05 <mchua> department of redundancy department!
19:33:29 <spevack> mchua: we won't stay in that hotel again.
19:33:58 <mchua> spevack: yessir.
19:34:50 <spevack> http://maps.google.com/maps/place?hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=holiday+inn+express+raleigh&fb=1&gl=us&hq=holiday+inn+express&hnear=raleigh&cid=9356236414151401026&ei=GzqdS5uwG4L78AbemYGiDg&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBIQnQIwAg
19:35:00 <rrix> ahh such beautiful maps urls :)
19:35:27 <threethirty> rrix: a lot of ajax apps do that
19:35:51 <rrix> unfortunately
19:35:59 <mchua> okay, we are BACK!
19:36:04 <mchua> and now.... for... FIRST!
19:36:09 <mchua> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundations
19:36:13 <mchua> and then hit up the gobby.
19:36:19 <rrix> is it already threethirty ?
19:36:26 <rrix> guess so :)
19:36:28 <yn1v> why firts is last? (just rethorical!)
19:37:24 * hiemanshu is here now to kick some ass :)
19:37:46 <mchua> yn1v: because, um... because.... we.... like being ironic?
19:43:10 <threethirty> we are the hipsters of calab doc editing
19:43:24 <hiemanshu> :)
19:43:26 * nmarques wonders how "community leaders/icons" wasn't explored...
19:44:51 <mchua> nmarques: how so?
19:46:26 <nmarques> mchua, community icons can lead the "dumb" masses :) but this is something that fits in another realm
19:46:50 <mchua> nmarques: start a list convo ;)
19:47:14 <mchua> Let's do one more minute, we still have momentum on FIRST
19:47:17 <mchua> and then hard cutoff at one minute
19:48:17 <mchua> TIME
19:49:28 <rbergeron> yarrrrrrr
19:49:32 <rbergeron> i'm a pi-rate
19:49:43 <mchua> Okay, we're going to look at the 2 gobby docs that VileGent just put up.
19:49:49 <mchua> VileGent is driving, I'm now the remote proxy
19:49:59 <mchua> remotees: look at the doc "parity vs difference"
19:50:13 <mchua> for each point in "difference" we're going to write in the "proof parity vs difference" doc how we're going to prove it.
19:50:49 <mchua> um, scratch that, remotees
19:50:54 <mchua> we're just going to do it inline in the marketing-fad-brainstorm doc
19:50:56 <mchua> sorry about that
19:51:27 <mchua> so we're looking around at line 181 and trying to get a PROOF POINT section in for each thing in the ==== Difference ==== section
19:58:53 <nmarques> guys I'm going away for 1 hour more or less. I have my birthday next tuesday and I have some family here, so I can't really skip dinner.
19:59:05 <stickster> k, thanks for being here nmarques
20:00:28 <mchua> Thanks, Nelson!
20:02:07 * mchua takes a typing break
20:04:29 <hiemanshu> I am out too, its close to 2AM, have to be up in less than 5 hours, Night all
20:05:35 <mchua> night, hiemanshu!
20:26:15 <smooge> ok I have a few minutes from kid duty.. how are things
20:27:04 <rrix> lots of discussoin... are we still intercall'ing, mchua ?
20:28:30 <mchua> rrix: Not so much right now; Paul is telling old stories.
20:28:44 <mchua> They're going too fast for transcription, but they're not critical-path right now.
20:29:04 <mchua> smooge: Take a look at the marketing-fad-brainstorm gobby doc - what do you think? That's basically our aftermath.
20:29:13 <mchua> I'm curious how coherent it looks to someone who wasn't around for the making.
20:29:21 <mchua> Because we'll need to clean it up so that it does make sense to other people, soon.
20:29:26 <rrix> ok
20:30:09 <smooge> mchua, I need to figure out how to turn off colors in gobby ... its brightly multi-colored
20:30:17 <smooge> shows lots of different views.
20:34:43 <mchua> smooge: in an incoherent-this-is-bad way, or a yay-diverse-perspectives way?
20:35:16 <smooge> at the moment it is just looking at the colors of different uses.
20:49:26 <mchua> Ok - the FAD is wrapping up here, everyone is tired.
20:49:44 <mchua> Robyn is leading us through figuring out action items for the things we discussed today
20:49:47 <mchua> and then we're going to break for dinner
20:49:53 <mchua> well, break for break, then dinner
20:50:09 <mchua> then the late-late show will start with ke4qqq and rrix and rbergeron leading us through (1) survey stuff and (2) survey packaging
20:53:07 <spevack> anyone have flash installed?
20:53:10 <spevack> http://www.neoformix.com/Projects/TwitArcs/TwitArcs.html
20:53:14 <spevack> http://www.neoformix.com/Projects/TwitterVenn/view.php
20:53:18 <spevack> http://www.neoformix.com/Projects/TwitterStreamGraphs/view.php
20:53:25 * spevack wonders if any of those are useful
20:53:26 <ke4qqq> spevack: I have swfdec - let me see if it works
20:53:38 * stickster does because he's evil
20:53:44 <spevack> http://search.twitter.com/search?q=fedora
20:55:22 * mchua actions things to do
20:55:25 <mchua> while in Allegheny
20:55:33 <mchua> #action mchua bring livecds to allegheny
20:55:45 <mchua> #action mchua get allegheny students to write like/don't-like first impressions
20:55:56 <mchua> # action mchua get Allegheny students to clean up user-facing wiki pages
20:56:41 <mchua> #action mchua get Allegheny students to clean up user-facing wiki pages
20:56:50 <mchua> #action mchua see if Allegheny students can write scripts for us
20:56:58 <mchua> #action mchua see if Allegheny students can run makeshift usability tests
20:57:17 <mchua> #action mchua see if Allegheny students can gather any of the metrics that we've specified today, and write papers on them (mmm papers)
21:00:47 <wonderer4711> stickster: you can smoothen up :-)
21:00:53 <stickster> :-)
21:03:19 <rrix> my system is _still_ reinstalling :(
21:03:39 <smooge> mchua overall it is a bit incoherent.. the comment sections help a bit of fleshing
21:03:51 <threethirty> there is all of this talk about twitter, dont forget there are fedora groups on identi.ca http://identi.ca/search/group?q=fedora&search=Search
21:05:11 <wonderer4711> rrix: why do you reinstall in the middle of something?! didn't you hear from murphy? :-)
21:05:21 <rrix> wonderer4711: I still have my netbook :)
21:05:39 <wonderer4711> that answers not my question :-D
21:05:45 <rrix> I upgraded from KDE 4.3 to 4.4 Alpha at camp kde on BOTH my machines :)
21:05:46 <wonderer4711> but it was metaphoric ;-)
21:06:02 <ke4qqq> rrix: simultaneously
21:06:06 <ke4qqq> ?
21:06:11 <wonderer4711> do not change a running system - and if: leave that at home ;-)
21:06:11 <rrix> ke4qqq: yeah :D
21:06:26 <rrix> wonderer4711: naw, if i break it, i have fedora folks to halp me :)
21:06:35 <rrix> MAX I BROKED IT D:
21:06:37 <rrix> etc
21:06:38 <ke4qqq> friends
21:06:46 <wonderer4711> rrix: you see what happens with max notebook ... questening myself wich button he is tomorrow missing...
21:06:56 <rrix> wonderer4711: he runs GNOME ;)
21:07:04 <wonderer4711> Fedora
21:07:48 <wonderer4711> Windowmanagers are like a man in a skirt - he looks cute, but under it there are ... you know.
21:08:05 <rrix> kernels?
21:08:14 <rrix> ;)
21:08:29 <threethirty> gnu utils?
21:08:58 <rrix> it's all man 5 down there.
21:09:23 <threethirty> lol
21:10:59 * mchua announces that tomorrow at lunch I will be making my way through our giant brainstorm doc
21:11:30 <mchua> #info tomorrow at lunch mchua will be making my way through our giant brainstorm doc and making tickets for EVERYTHING and anyone who wants to join in the ticket party (not just the mktg queue, the engr services queue and etc) is very welcome
21:12:14 <nmarques> I'll try to be around tomorrow
21:13:04 <nmarques> mchua, this has been great so far. Helped a lot on my learning curve, and I still get amazed easily by how people work :)
21:15:33 <ke4qqq> spevack: stickster: why no awstats for get.fp.o?
21:15:59 <rbergeron> mmmmm
21:16:09 <rrix> I want to talk about Ambassadors "one word" plan at some point. SOunds waaaaaay easy to do, at least the frontend
21:16:53 <stickster> ke4qqq: get.fp.o is just a redirect to fp.o/get-fedora
21:17:01 <stickster> It's not a separate host, thus no separate stats
21:17:20 <stickster> err, s/host/vhost/ probably
21:17:33 <ke4qqq> ahhh ok
21:21:15 <mchua> #info goal for tomorrow: (1) hear about how Fedora PR is done (largely by the FPL and RH's PR dept) right now (and what/whether/how we can community-ize any of it now or later)
21:21:29 <mchua> #info goal for tomorrow: (2) draft f13 press kit - Paul will make sure that we do this
21:21:56 <mchua> ke4qqq asked if Paul has stepped up as point person for the f13 press kit deliverable as "the FPL who is employed by Red Hat" or "a community member"
21:22:23 <mchua> stickster replies that as the FPL he needs to make sure that the press kit (1) happens, and (2) serves both Fedora's and Red Hat's purposes satisfactorily
21:26:17 <spevack> #link http://spevack.livejournal.com/102109.html
21:27:58 * stickster adds Max's goals and some bits on F13 press kit to wiki
21:28:36 <mchua> nmarques: Glad to have you around today! Thanks for participating and for being willing to both learn things and to teach us what you know - we're coming from a lot of different places here, and are still learning how to work together.
21:28:53 <mchua> And we'll always have to learn how to work together. That's part of the fun of having an ever-changing, ever-learning team.
21:28:56 <mchua> (w00t)
21:29:09 * mchua points out that we want to make sure that we bridge Fedora Marketing to both the Marketing and the Fedora communities
21:29:17 <mchua> keeping people in the loop, being able to speak their language: IMPORTANT
21:31:01 <mchua> #info leave hotel tomorrow at 8:45am
21:32:12 <nmarques> mchua, I have more to learn then to teach ;)
21:36:43 <stickster> We're going off phone now
21:38:07 <mchua> We're going to eat now.
21:38:15 <mchua> I'm closing the logs and reopening the evening ones.
21:38:23 <mchua> #endmeeting