14:06:07 <decause> #startmeeting DocsFAD2016
14:06:07 <zodbot> Meeting started Fri May  6 14:06:07 2016 UTC.  The chair is decause. Information about MeetBot at
14:06:07 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:06:07 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'docsfad2016'
14:06:38 <decause> #chair stickster randomuser ryanlerch zoglesby_ bexelbie Amita jsmith quaid
14:06:38 <zodbot> Current chairs: Amita bexelbie decause jsmith quaid randomuser ryanlerch stickster zoglesby_
14:06:51 <decause> stickster opens
14:06:53 <decause> stickster: welcome!
14:07:38 <decause> #info stickster - I work at Fedora full-time to manage the engineering team. My stake here is to help make a great plan to enable to the most people to collaborate, including people not in this room
14:07:42 <decause> other than that
14:07:47 <decause> that is really my only dog in this fight
14:07:54 <decause> that is why I'm playing the role of facilitator
14:08:03 <decause> I'm going to do a couple of things:
14:08:19 <decause> 1) Not diving into tools/tech until we are all on the same page about "what things are we trying to make?"
14:08:24 <decause> tools are a follow-on to that
14:08:45 <decause> 2) There are things I've seen that can sink the time at FADs; Random Tech, war stories, general talk about Linux.
14:09:07 <decause> we all can agree we have passion for Linux/FOSS/Fedora/OpenSource. so let's avoid drifting into social conversations.
14:09:30 <decause> I'll hold up a hand for "rathole" -- getting too deep in tech details, and "beer stories" which we can tell later
14:09:41 <decause> as a facilitator, we can use the time as effectively as possible
14:09:47 <decause> we want to respect everyone's time
14:09:52 <decause> #topic Agenda
14:10:07 <decause> #topic introductions
14:10:57 <decause> jperrin: I'm here from CentOS, which is downstream of RHEL. This has been problematic in a number of ways, but for our upstream special interest work is an Upstream for some Red hat projects. We want that to be easily consumed/adapted, similar to Fedora. WE want to figure out how fit in.
14:13:01 * decause introduces himself
14:13:27 <decause> smmcance: You may know me as a member of the GNOME team. I've been a friend of Fedora for many years in docs. I work for Red Hat now, in the OSAS team.
14:13:49 <decause> our department is charged with taking care of Open Source projects/communities, and float between multiple projects to help with Documentation wherever I can.
14:14:00 <decause> Fedora and CentOS are both under that umbrella
14:14:33 <decause> I'm one of the few docs people in Red Hat that is not in Content Services, but Steven and I have been talking for as long as I've been at REd Hat about facilitating upstream/downstream docs.
14:14:44 <decause> I'm hoping we can make that better, help with Fedora problems, and ramping up CentOS too.
14:15:22 <decause> ryanlerch: I used to be fairly active in the Docs project, but now work with stickster in the Fedora Engineering Team with the Design Team.
14:15:28 <decause> one of my primary concerns is UX
14:15:50 <decause> how our docs impact the user experience, how they are usable. It is all well and good to have lots of them, but if they are not usable, there is not much point
14:16:00 <decause> I'm also concerned with the UX for contributors also
14:16:28 <decause> randomuser: I'm the current Fedora Docs Lead. Been working with team for 4ish years now.
14:17:11 <decause> that group is in need of redirection, both in tooling and scope. We're modeled as an upstream for RHEL docs, which makes it hard for new users to jump into 1) huge books 2) Someone else's full-time work.
14:17:22 <decause> I'd like to solve that problem for myself, but our other contributors.
14:17:46 <decause> we don't have people using Fedora docs in this way anymore, and doesn't quite reflect the reality of situation.
14:18:07 <decause> zoglesby_: I've been working in Fedora Docs since before stickster was the FPL. ryanlerch was around at that time.
14:18:16 <decause> my biggest concern
14:18:25 <decause> when started, things changed fundamentally
14:18:31 <decause> we (docs) didn't
14:18:52 <decause> we have these big monolithic texts, and how do we restructure docs to reflect state of Fedora?
14:19:03 <decause> I'm also looking forward to hearing about other folks' tooling, and how we solve problems.
14:19:14 <decause> sgilson: I'm the Content Strategist for RHEL.
14:19:20 <decause> my concerns are like zoglesby_
14:19:29 <decause> what our users need, how we structure things
14:19:39 <decause> I was brought in 2 years ago to revamp the strategy
14:19:45 <decause> have since refocused on just RHEL
14:19:59 <decause> with silas' help, we saw a way to reconnect with the upstream roots
14:20:06 <decause> we have real serious resource constraints
14:20:16 <decause> you probably ahve a notion of the ideal ratio of engineers to writers
14:20:33 <decause> eng 630, docs 11-2.
14:20:49 <decause> our team is really just treading water, and puts lots of pressure on us
14:21:15 <decause> there is potential to help, but we gotta hit our numbers internally
14:21:18 <decause> we're producing books
14:21:20 <decause> pdfs
14:21:26 <decause> architecturally, they are books
14:21:46 <decause> in about 5 mins, i could tell what the problem was: we're producing docs the same way we did in the 90's.
14:21:52 <decause> the team is a bit trapped in the process
14:22:07 <decause> my job is about providing an idea of what an endstate, a "more perfect world" might look like
14:22:20 <decause> that has to happen, and that has to work to motivate the team to change things
14:22:29 <decause> we're making progress on the 'book' metaphor
14:22:31 <decause> but it is small steps
14:24:15 <decause> my goal is to have an upsream first approach to components of the docs
14:24:28 <decause> to get there, the friction of the contribution model needs to be removed, so we can expand the poool of contributors
14:25:02 <decause> if there are resource constraints, then we need to expand our contribution base
14:25:24 <decause> randomuser: not everyone in docs are "professional technical writers" nor can we require them to be.
14:25:37 <decause> ryanlerch: and the book model def contributes to that barrier
14:25:53 <decause> ryanlerch: after being out of docs for a while, I even had a "where do I start" moment
14:26:08 <decause> silas: I'm silas, I hate books
14:26:09 <decause> lolz
14:26:35 <decause> I"m the docs tool program manager. I've only been in role for 2 months, and I wa sthe regional manager for EMEA content services.
14:26:45 <decause> the toolchain did not come from us, just want to make that clear.
14:26:50 <decause> we're progressing how we write docs
14:26:59 <decause> what I want to accomplish here is being an enabler.
14:27:10 <decause> depending on the sharing/contribution model is all about sharing that.
14:27:29 <decause> I work with many upstreams, and having the same conversations about how do we do the sharing of docs (aside from policy)
14:27:44 <decause> Fedora has always been close to my heart, and I think this is very important for us, and for Red Hat
14:27:57 <decause> I want to look at enabling the sharing, questions of what to do, and quality.
14:28:21 <decause> I work closely with customer product team
14:28:41 <decause> I'd like to help give a picture fo what that toolchain looks like
14:29:10 <decause> smccance: I see modularization as a common theme, but what does that look like as a product offering.
14:30:38 <decause> is anyone here looking to dial-in?
14:33:08 <decause> #info Fedora Docs FAD BlueJeans instance is now live!
15:02:33 <randomuser> #topic upstream/downstream relationships
15:03:17 <decause> #link Join the Fedora Docs FAD conf call at:
15:03:53 <decause> stickster: we want to start getting some agreement on the kinds of things we want to produce
15:04:05 <decause> I think we can get there by looking at various personas, and what they want to do
15:04:14 <decause> some of this has been a part of the early conversation
15:04:19 <decause> like "books are not sacrosanct"
15:04:21 <decause> for instance
15:06:40 <randomuser> #link
15:12:31 <jibecfed> hi there
15:13:37 <jibecfed> Is it normal to find a reference to "f22" version of zanata project in f23-branch of install-guide ?
15:14:50 <jibecfed> I wanted to take the content from install-guide and po files from zanata, but it tells me some strings are missing from po files downloaded from Zanata
15:15:15 <jibecfed> are the zanata strings up to date with that repository ?
15:16:14 <Evolution> decause: what's the url for that page?
15:16:43 <decause> Evolution:
15:16:44 <pbokoc> jibecfed, that's my bad. It looks like I forgot to push the updated zanata.xml.
15:17:18 <jibecfed> pbokoc: ok, but make your update carefully, we translated 53 k words
15:17:58 <pbokoc> jibecfed, the strings that are on should be up to date, it's just that the source repo was missing one commit. Nothing should break.
15:19:18 <pbokoc> jibecfed, and thanks for the translations! :)
15:19:25 <jibecfed> pbokoc: ok, let me know when done
15:19:35 <fedmsg-docs> 13trac.git.receive -- pbokoc pushed some commits to the 'docs/install-guide' fedorahosted git repository 10
15:19:38 <jibecfed> you welcome, but I didn't translate that one but jaaf64
15:22:32 <jibecfed> i'm just reviewing it
15:26:59 <jibecfed> pbokoc: thanks for the fix
15:27:21 <jibecfed> but it's the easy part
15:27:45 <pbokoc> jibecfed, hand on, I think I borked it a little bit. Just a sec :)
15:27:49 <pbokoc> ...hang
15:28:38 <jibecfed> when I download the content from doc repository, I taking the french po files from zanata, then build, but get many warnings
15:29:15 <fedmsg-docs> 13trac.git.receive -- pbokoc pushed some commits to the 'docs/install-guide' fedorahosted git repository 10
15:31:45 <randomuser> zoglesby_, shaunm
15:38:03 <pbokoc> jibecfed, the config should work now. About the warnings, I think they're fine. If you look closely, they all complain about missing translations in POs, but everything that's missing is things like command examples which shouldn't be translated anyway
15:38:48 <pbokoc> jibecfed, oh, and a few "fuzzy" messages - I think these were automatically copied from previous versions and they need someone to check them and make sure the translation still applies
16:10:06 <jibecfed> pbokoc: I'll try again
16:10:38 <Evolution>
16:15:13 <jibecfed> pbokoc: what I do : I download last version of f23-franch with the zip from
16:15:32 <jibecfed> I extract, then # publican trans_drop
16:15:43 <jibecfed> then # publican update_pot
16:16:06 <jibecfed> then # publican update_po --langs=fr
16:17:25 <jibecfed> I publish first pdf with # publican build --formats=pdf --langs=fr --showfuzzy
16:18:16 <jibecfed> the pdf is produced, with many warnings, but it's ok
16:18:21 <jibecfed> then I go to
16:18:43 <jibecfed> on the top right, I download everything as zip file
16:20:26 * jibecfed waiting for zanata ...
16:26:43 <jibecfed> pbokoc: and now it works fine
16:26:54 <jibecfed> I don't know what I did ;) thanks for your help
18:21:49 <kushal> What is the IRC channel for the docs fad?
18:25:30 <nb> kushal, i haven't heard yet
18:25:32 <nb> randomuser, ping
18:25:32 <zodbot> nb: Ping with data, please:
18:25:44 <kushal> :)
18:25:50 <randomuser> this channel, kushal
18:25:56 <kushal> randomuser, Ah, thanks :)
18:26:20 <kushal> randomuser, I have few random questions :)
18:26:37 <randomuser> kushal, it's on task discussion atm, but we can set up bluejeans if you want to call in
18:26:49 <randomuser> also, feel free to throw out your questions here at any time
18:26:51 <kushal> randomuser, IRC is fine :)
18:27:00 <kushal> randomuser, like do we have a date to move over to something else (your new system most probably) from publican?
18:27:16 <nb> randomuser, did i ever give you permission to award docs fad badge?
18:27:26 <nb> or if you give me a ist of people, i can do it for you
18:27:28 <randomuser> no, we don't have a concrete something else, so no detailed plan yet
18:31:01 <randomuser> nb, I didn't check on badge perms, but it should be a relatively short list
18:31:29 * nb plans to participate remotely (at least as much as i can)
18:31:33 <nb> :)
18:33:43 <kushal> just passed midnight here.
18:33:58 <kushal> randomuser, Do we have the GSoC student participating ?
18:34:41 <randomuser> not yet - zoglesby_, decause - have you discussed the FAD with him?
18:58:14 <randomuser> c0mrad3, c0mrad3_ - were you intending to participate in this?
19:10:46 <jflory7> DocsFAD++
19:45:57 <decause> #link
19:46:38 <decause> kushal: yes, we have a GSoC student (c0mrad3)
19:46:48 <decause> kushal: we have not decided on tools yet
19:46:53 <decause> today, we're talking user stories and requirements
19:46:56 <decause> tomorrow we talk tools
19:46:59 <decause> and sunday we hack
19:47:12 <decause> kushal: you can read up on most of the things on the etherpad:
19:47:36 <decause> #link
19:48:01 <kushal> decause, thanks :)
19:48:49 <decause> kushal: np, sorry I didn't see your question sooner :)
19:49:06 <kushal> decause, np, you are busy :)
20:29:19 <linuxmodder> FAD starts today or tomorrow?
20:30:46 <nb> decause, who is at fad?
20:30:51 * nb will give people fad badge
20:33:03 <nb> decause, all of the confirmed people from wiki are there?
20:37:43 <decause> ryanlerch
20:37:49 <decause> smccance
20:37:53 <decause> zoglesby
20:38:00 <decause> randomuser/immanetize
20:38:02 <decause> jperrin
20:38:12 <decause> .fas gilson
20:38:12 <zodbot> decause: tukerev9mm 'Gilson Osayan' <> - sgilson 'Stephen Gilson' <>
20:38:16 <decause> sgilson
20:38:26 <decause> .fas silas
20:38:27 <zodbot> decause: silas428 'ryan' <> - silas '' <> - dsilas '' <> - nasilas 'ILIAS IBRAHIM' <> - undarksilas 'Undarksilas' <> - silasbaynard 'Silas Baynard' <> - jsilas '' <>
20:38:54 <decause> dsilas
20:39:05 <decause> decause
20:39:08 <decause> stickster
20:39:09 <decause> jzb
20:39:15 <decause> .fas amye
20:39:15 <zodbot> decause: kamyeung 'kamyeung' <> - amyecannon 'Amy' <> - jasonamyers 'Jason Myers' <> - amye 'Amye Scavarda' <>
20:39:23 <decause> amye
20:39:46 <decause> nb: I think that's everyone for today
20:39:53 <decause> but I'd also add you, and kushal too
20:40:14 <decause> jperrin = Evolution I reckon
20:46:12 <Evolution> correct
20:46:20 <nb> .fasinfo smccance
20:46:21 <zodbot> nb: User "smccance" doesn't exist
20:46:24 <nb> .fas smccance
20:46:25 <zodbot> nb: 'smccance' Not Found!
20:46:27 <Evolution> .fasinfo Evolution
20:46:28 <zodbot> Evolution: User "Evolution" doesn't exist
20:46:32 <Evolution> oh, fine.
20:46:37 <Evolution> .fasinfo jperrin
20:46:38 <zodbot> Evolution: User: jperrin, Name: None, email:, Creation: 2013-08-19, IRC Nick: None, Timezone: None, Locale: None, GPG key ID: None, Status: active
20:46:41 <zodbot> Evolution: Approved Groups: packager fedorabugs +epel-wranglers cla_fpca cla_done sysadmin-centos
20:46:56 <Evolution> helps for the right username.
20:49:40 * nb gets mad at badges app
20:49:50 <nb> i keep getting either 500 or 404 error tryin to add dsilas
20:50:42 <nb> .fas mccance
20:50:43 <zodbot> nb: gmccance 'Gavin McCance' <> - shaunm 'Shaun McCance' <>
20:50:50 <Evolution> ooh badges.
20:50:59 <Evolution> now I can skip out on saturday/sunday
20:51:01 <Evolution> :-P
20:51:41 <nb>
20:52:00 * nb thinks i have gotten everyone except for dsilas
20:52:09 * nb is going to try to add manually from command line and see what happens
21:11:34 * quaid forgot to lurk today but will join in some tomorrow
04:00:01 <zoglesby_> #endmeeting