20:00:44 <mizmo> #startmeeting
20:00:44 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Nov 24 20:00:44 2009 UTC.  The chair is mizmo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:00:44 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
20:00:59 <mizmo> #topic roll-call
20:01:02 <mizmo> who all's here?
20:01:08 <EvilBob> Bacon
20:01:22 <mizmo> i know ryanlerch is on a bus and is gonna be here shortly, and a bunch of marketing folks are gonna be here in an hour. poelcat is gonna be here in 30 min.
20:01:34 <mizmo> EvilBob: /nick EvilBacon ;-)
20:01:41 <spliction> splictionary
20:01:47 <EvilBob> Bacon is never evil
20:01:47 * tatica = maria leandro
20:01:53 <tatica> :D
20:02:33 * finalzone = ever lurking canuck Luya
20:02:43 <finalzone> Luya Tshimbalanga
20:02:49 <mizmo> yay
20:02:59 <mizmo> is everyone familiar with the agenda for today?
20:03:07 <mizmo> i wrote up a blog post last friday: http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/11/20/want-to-learn-design-skills-want-to-help-fedora-fedora-interaction-design-hackfest-tuesday-24-nov/
20:03:26 <EvilBob> I am a little out of the loop but will review
20:03:32 <mizmo> #topic agenda review
20:03:50 <mizmo> #link http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/11/20/want-to-learn-design-skills-want-to-help-fedora-fedora-interaction-design-hackfest-tuesday-24-nov/
20:04:14 <mizmo> so we're going to be doing work today towards developing personas for Fedora's desktop
20:04:36 <mizmo> there's some important work that has already been done by the Fedora Board that we're going to start with
20:05:14 <mizmo> #link Fedora's mission and goals: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Overview#Our_Mission
20:05:32 <mizmo> to summarize the main mission is: "The Fedora Project's mission is to lead the advancement of free and open source software and content as a collaborative community."
20:05:58 <mizmo> towards that mission, the board has a working definition of Fedora's target audience
20:06:14 <mizmo> #link Fedora target audience: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-October/msg00350.html
20:06:22 <mizmo> I'll summarize that briefly as well:
20:06:44 <mizmo> (altho stickster and i discussed some modifications to it this past weekend on fedora-advisory-board list)
20:07:41 * finalzone is reading
20:08:02 <mizmo> Someone who
20:08:02 <mizmo> (1) is voluntarily switching to Linux
20:08:02 <mizmo> (2) is familiar with computers, but is not necessarily a hacker or developer
20:08:02 <mizmo> (3) is likely to collaborate in some fashion when something's wrong with Fedora
20:08:02 <mizmo> (4) wants to use Fedora for general productivity, either using desktop applications or a Web browser.
20:08:11 <mizmo> the modifications we discussed:
20:08:33 <mchua> Would it be helpful to see what teams/stakeholder-groups are represented here, so we know what ground we are and aren't covering?
20:08:41 <smooge> my persona likes pandas
20:09:05 <mizmo> (1) they may not be aware of FOSS but are interested in a change
20:09:35 <mizmo> (2) They need to have permission to write to the hard drive for full installs
20:10:02 <mizmo> (3) has been revised to read: " Someone who is willing and able to communicate about their experiences with Fedora."
20:10:11 <mizmo> mchua: that's a good suggestion
20:10:22 <mizmo> #topic stakeholder representation
20:10:36 <mizmo> for everyone here, can you shout out which stakeholders groups in this list you represent?
20:10:43 <mizmo> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Research_Plan#Stakeholders
20:11:06 * mizmo is a representative of the fedora design team
20:11:17 <mizmo> tatica: ambassadors and fedora design team, right?
20:11:58 * mchua is from Marketing
20:13:09 * mizmo points at stickster - board!
20:13:59 <aija> Hi. I'm not actually a current contributor. I just want to be.
20:14:11 * stickster comes in a bit late from phone meeting, sorry
20:14:14 <mizmo> aija: cool feel free to listen in
20:14:25 * pbor is an upstream gnome contributor and a fedora user... just lurking here since mizmo message on #fedora-desktop got my attention
20:14:37 <tatica> mizmo, yes
20:14:41 <mizmo> do we have any fedora websites and/or infra representatives here?
20:14:43 <mizmo> welcome pbor :)
20:14:58 <stickster> ricky maybe?
20:15:01 <stickster> Might be early for him
20:15:12 <stickster> abadger1999 may be lurking
20:15:18 * abadger1999 lurking
20:15:30 <abadger1999> Not really time to paricipate fully though :-(
20:15:35 <mizmo> EvilBob: can you represent Fedora help forums?
20:15:46 <tatica> abadger1999, :**
20:15:57 <mizmo> abadger1999: it's all good :)
20:16:01 <stickster> mizmo: I can help a small bit with websites, but I'm not what you would call intimately involved there. I do know how to make changes in Websites generally
20:16:25 <mizmo> kk
20:16:44 <mizmo> so we've got some good representation i think, where we have holes we can run out and grab people as needed
20:17:07 <mizmo> looks like we might have to do that for desktop, qa, releng, and spins
20:17:10 * smooge represents himself.. but would be from infrastructure
20:17:13 <mizmo> but no worries
20:17:15 <mizmo> smooge: oh okay great
20:17:35 <mizmo> okay so here's the run down
20:17:41 <mizmo> we've got 13 stakeholder groups
20:17:48 <mizmo> for each group, we need to ask them some questions:
20:17:56 <mizmo> *  How well do you think Fedora accomplishes  its stated goals in light of your role in the project?
20:17:56 <mizmo> * How is Fedora not meeting those goals?
20:17:56 <mizmo> * What questions do you have about Fedora's target audience that you'd like to see answers so that your team can help get Fedora closer to its goals?
20:18:40 <mizmo> since we need to gather this data before anything else, i'd like to propose that we divy up the stakeholder groups and run the interviews as we can right now
20:18:53 <mizmo> where we can't get in touch with a stakeholder in IRC, we can send out emails
20:19:11 <mizmo> shall we get started?
20:19:23 <mizmo> let's each grab a stakeholder (grab a group you're not currently part of) and start asking away!
20:19:41 <mizmo> should i start one in here first so you folks can see how it works?
20:19:46 * ryanlerch is here, coffee in hand!
20:19:53 * finalzone nods
20:19:59 <EvilBob> I have to reconnect, BRB
20:20:25 <mizmo> kk EvilBob
20:20:28 <mizmo> yay ryanlerch!
20:20:32 <mizmo> :)
20:20:49 <mizmo> so I'll grab a stakeholder i know we have good representation of in here - infrastructure
20:20:54 <mizmo> so, abadger1999, smooge :)
20:21:06 <mizmo> abadger1999, smooge: How well do you think Fedora accomplishes  its stated goals in light of your role in the project?
20:21:28 <mizmo> where Fedora's goals are: "The Fedora Project's mission is to lead the advancement of free and open source software and content as a collaborative community. "
20:21:38 <mizmo> "    *  The Fedora Project always strives to lead, not follow.
20:21:38 <mizmo> * The Fedora Project consistently seeks to create, improve, and spread free/libre code and content.
20:21:38 <mizmo> * The Fedora Project succeeds through shared action on the part of many people throughout our community. "
20:22:00 <mizmo> #topic example stakeholder interview
20:22:04 <abadger1999> Not utter fail, but definitely problems.
20:22:27 <abadger1999> We don't have nearly enough two-way communication.
20:22:43 <abadger1999> between various parts of hte project.
20:23:19 <mizmo> abadger1999: which parts is it the worst between?
20:23:28 <abadger1999> That's the "shared action" I think.  as well as "collaborative community".
20:24:12 <abadger1999> mizmo: heh, desktop developers <=> unix users;  There's a lot of acrimony there instead of discussion about the problems that each are trying to address.
20:24:58 <mizmo> abadger1999: where unix users == grey beards / folks invested in the way unix has always worked?
20:25:13 <abadger1999> Also, things like infrastructure developers and artwork/design team/infrastructure admins.... I think any two of those groups talk well on a given project, but I've never seen all three.
20:25:24 <abadger1999> mizmo: More like -- system administrators.
20:25:40 <mchua> mizmo: sdziallas is a spin maintainer, btw
20:26:04 * sdziallas hullos ;)
20:26:17 <mizmo> mchua: oh okay great welcome sdziallas:)
20:26:26 <abadger1999> mizmo: I like that we're on the cutting edge of desktop development but too often the cutting edge is thinking about single user desktop problems when our users use us because we're a multi-user desktop/unix solution.
20:27:35 <smooge> I believe we have a lot of problems with too many different views at times and  lack of central vision to move forward when 20% pull one way, 20% pull the other,and 60% don't care
20:27:37 <mizmo> abadger1999: and have these communication problems affected the infrastructure team specifically?
20:28:05 <abadger1999> mizmo: I try to stay out of it, but it has.  For instance, amber.
20:28:30 <smooge> not something I am familiar with.
20:28:42 <abadger1999> mizmo: that was an application browser as opposed to a package browser geared towards end-users.
20:29:12 * finalzone apologized for logging out, emphaty somehow crashed =(
20:29:46 <abadger1999> mizmo: web application.  A desktop person was working on it (as the server side) of integration into an eventual desktop fedora app (maybe bigboard?... I don't quite remember).
20:30:11 <mizmo> finalzone: in case you need to catch up http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-design/2009-11-24/fedora-design.2009-11-24-20.00.log.txt
20:30:11 <abadger1999> mizmo: At the time, I asked if we could integrate it into the packagedb asan alternate view of the data.
20:30:58 <abadger1999> mizmo: But they had ideas that it should be its own thing unrelated to packages or any of the details that "endusers" wouldn't be interested in.
20:31:28 <abadger1999> So I helped out on amber's db model for a while then let the desktop developer keep working on it.
20:31:42 <abadger1999> mizmo: Eventually, the project was put on hold and died.
20:32:00 <finalzone> mizmo, thanks for the log
20:32:01 <abadger1999> mizmo: then a new developer was tasked with reviving it.
20:32:22 <abadger1999> mizmo: At that point we'd canibalized various ideas from amber's high level goals for pkgdb and f-community.
20:32:55 <abadger1999> mizmo: So we brought the developer into working on pkgdb... which means we're back to the idea I originally advanced.
20:33:15 <abadger1999> mizmo: All works out in the end.. but we could have gotten farther quicker if we'd worked together from the start.
20:34:04 <abadger1999> mizmo: As for the design/art/developer/sysadmin communication problems, that hits us a lot.
20:34:05 <mizmo> abadger1999: can you think of any ways the communication could have been improved so it worked out betteR?
20:34:56 <mizmo> to the newcomers - welcome! the backlogs are here if you'd like to catch up http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-design/2009-11-24/fedora-design.2009-11-24-20.00.log.txt
20:35:41 <abadger1999> mizmo: I'd put anything that is wanted to run on infrastructure boxes into infrastructure's jurisdiction.
20:36:36 <abadger1999> mizmo: New coding projects should be worked on as part of infrastructure.  The infra structure meeting should be used to discuss issues.
20:36:48 * finalzone is glad to see msourada
20:37:00 <abadger1999> mizmo: Infrastructure can come up with questions that will help see projects through to completion.
20:37:11 <mizmo> abadger1999: so maybe if there was some kind of 'new infrastructure project' on boarding process that was easy to find
20:37:22 <abadger1999> mizmo: For instance, Who is working on this?  What human resources do you need?
20:37:31 * msourada returned a while ago from bachelor's graduate ceremony (and supper with family afterwards)... hence a bit late XD
20:37:32 <abadger1999> mizmo: <nod> and followed.
20:38:16 <abadger1999> mizmo: Recently, we've hadissues where infrastructure was not used at all as the meeting place to organize projects yet infrastructure was expected to run them.
20:38:36 <mizmo> fedora community was one of them :(
20:38:46 <abadger1999> mizmo: That doesn't work out so well as mmcgrath needs to be able to balance time and resources.
20:39:08 <abadger1999> yeah... as long as we get better about that, I won't be unhappy ;-)
20:39:18 <mizmo> and when you folks aren't prepped and resourced in a manageable way, the end users of these applications end up suffering
20:39:19 <abadger1999> But we aren't getting a whole lot better yet.
20:39:35 <abadger1999> Correct.  Or worse, the end users of the distribution.
20:40:23 <mizmo> lets talk quickly about how issues with design/art/developers/sysadmin communications have affected your team, we kind of tangented from that a bit i think.
20:40:51 <abadger1999> So.. we have quite a few web apps that we have infrastructure developers working on.
20:41:19 <abadger1999> dev=> design team needs to be better as only F-community has seen significant UI review and design
20:41:47 <mizmo> and spins :)
20:41:58 <abadger1999> Although we (devs) get a lot of free review by people in the community... we aren't sure whether any of that review is good.
20:42:09 <abadger1999> Well.. spins isn't a web app.
20:42:14 <abadger1999> But it does look nice :-)
20:42:29 <mizmo> even if its not an app though it needs a design thats consistent with the rest of our properties
20:42:37 <abadger1999> spins does have code, though -- sijis and I worked on it.
20:42:39 <abadger1999> <nod>
20:42:57 <mizmo> we definitely are very short on ui review / mockup resources
20:42:58 <abadger1999> mizmo: Well... so here's something to thin about.
20:43:08 <mizmo> and that affects our end users as well
20:43:19 <abadger1999> mizmo: From my POV, there is no consistent design across all of our properties.
20:43:48 <abadger1999> mizmo: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/ vs pkgdb/ vs /accounts vs /elections vs /community/
20:43:48 <mizmo> it's true
20:44:26 <mizmo> that can be very confusing for our end users
20:44:27 <abadger1999> mizmo: Each of them is different.  But not because we want them to be their own thing... just because we don't have a designer saying, "Use this CSS."  "Mark these kinds of elements like this"
20:44:34 <EvilBob> Can anyone speak up during this?
20:44:38 <mizmo> EvilBob: sure
20:45:20 <EvilBob> Web Design vs. Web Development, they need to work together but rarely speak the same "language"
20:45:37 <abadger1999> mizmo: That part, I think could be helped by having a resource to turn to -- either a designer who knows the answers to these kind of questions or having a document that describes what to do.
20:45:42 <abadger1999> EvilBob: +1.
20:46:17 <EvilBob> A "web master" commonly would act as an interface
20:46:31 <abadger1999> At the moment, we haven't had any conflicts over language barriers... we're more like separate tribes of people that meet at the big fudcon potlatch every winter but never talk beyond that :-)
20:47:06 <abadger1999> EvilBob: So, what would a webmaster be?
20:47:18 <mizmo> so, the main problems i'm seeing
20:47:29 <abadger1999> Is it a specific role that pulls resources together?
20:47:35 <mizmo> from infrastructure's perspective, on fedora meeting our goals:
20:47:42 <EvilBob> abadger1999: right
20:48:22 <EvilBob> abadger1999: is there a consistent template system used in infrastructure apps?
20:48:34 <mizmo> 1) we need to improve inter-team communication. things are poorly communicated if commnunicated at all at times, and projects end up getting dropped or implemented in a way that doesn't account for infrateam's needing to schedule and manage resources. this results in confused end-users, who may be expecting a project to come out and it never does. or it does but infra doesn't have the resources to support it properly.
20:48:58 <abadger1999> EvilBob: There was a specific templating language for most things -- genshi.  However, f-community was developed on its own and used mako.
20:49:16 <mizmo> 2) we need to improve the consistency across our web properties. there still isn't a standard look/feel documented or design resource specifically allocated for developers to turn to. this hurts our end users because our web properties are a smorgabord of styles/looks and they don't seem the same.
20:49:35 <abadger1999> EvilBob: And lmacken is moving bodhi2 to mako as well.... ie, no mandate from a designer that template language matters.
20:50:24 <EvilBob> abadger1999: one two or three are easier to deal with and be consistent than none or 30.
20:51:03 <mizmo> they're both in the turbogears family too
20:51:10 <abadger1999> mizmo: Yeah, and 2 follows from a specific case of 1)
20:51:10 <mizmo> it could be worse. one could be say seam :)
20:51:35 <mizmo> abadger1999, EvilBob, smooge: can you think of other problems we've got going on that specifically negatively impact our end users?
20:51:38 <troy_s> mizmo: Do you have a standards guide?
20:51:46 <mizmo> troy_s: no not yet
20:51:51 <smooge> one sec
20:52:00 <abadger1999> mizmo: content.
20:52:15 <abadger1999> mizmo: We don't have a plan for it or allocated resources for it.
20:52:42 <mizmo> abadger1999: web app content, web site content, that sort of thing?
20:52:49 <mizmo> wiki too?
20:52:55 <mizmo> docs i think are covered
20:52:56 <abadger1999> mizmo: We're pretty much only about rpm packages and the sitro itself right noww... starting to branch into web-based docs.
20:53:39 <abadger1999> But we don't have a good plan for locally installed docs (rpm and publican is showing that it doesn't scale in one or more directions depending on how we try to massage it)
20:53:47 <smooge> mizmo, a where are we going plan. Users get upset not knowing why website or applications change (even if they like the newer way).
20:54:12 <abadger1999> Locally installed free content like copying deviantart as wallpapers or project gutenberg for ebooks.
20:54:17 <abadger1999> etc.
20:54:42 <mizmo> okay so it seems like we're talking about a few different types of content -
20:54:52 <smooge> We make changes but forget to tell people sometimes we are going to do it, why we are doing it, and what we are trying to accomplish so they can see if we are meeting that or not. Sometimes it feels like change for change's sake.
20:55:03 <mizmo> - the web properties fedora infra hosts - where does the content for those come from and what are the roadmaps.
20:55:19 <mizmo> - content for end users to consume from within the distro itself - ebooks and artwork and things of that nature.
20:56:17 <mizmo> abadger1999: for the latter, does there need to be a policy decided on for what kind of content of this sort can be packaged for fedora? (or if it gets distributed some other way?)
20:56:44 <abadger1999> mizmo: I've become convinced that rpm packaging is the wrong way to go for that.
20:57:03 <abadger1999> mizmo: But users want it and being able to get it to them fits with our mission.
20:57:20 <ryanlerch> abadger1999: agreed. RPMs are good for software... content, not so much.
20:57:21 * poelcat here now
20:57:25 <abadger1999> mizmo: If we do it ourselves, we need to figure out what resources are needed and get those to infrastructure.
20:57:32 <mizmo> welcome poelcat
20:57:47 <mizmo> abadger1999: makes sense.
20:57:54 <abadger1999> mizmo: Other ways could be to partner with other services (like deviant art and project gutenberg).
20:58:33 <mizmo> some of that might involved desktop integration to
20:58:36 <abadger1999> Help them take submissions more easily and make web apis for distributing the content... then have programs inside Fedora that rtrieve the content.
20:58:38 <mizmo> like we have the jamendo plug in for rhythmbox
20:58:40 <abadger1999> Yes
20:58:49 <mizmo> but there is so much content there too... it might be nice to have 'fedora's picks' or something like that
20:59:22 <mizmo> any other issues?
20:59:29 <mizmo> the next question is, What questions do you have about Fedora's target audience that you'd like to see answers so that your team can help get Fedora closer to its goals?
20:59:44 <mizmo> so we can jump to that or we can explore any other issues you might see we have in meeting our goals
21:01:20 <abadger1999> I'm not sure what I want to say about target audience... it really rubs me the wrong way.
21:01:30 <mizmo> how come?
21:01:32 <abadger1999> Athough the statement of target audience wasn't horrid.
21:02:11 <finalzone> should forums endorsed by Fedora Project have the same design? Example, both Fedora Forum and fedora-fr have different appearance.
21:02:11 <abadger1999> My view is that the people who care about Fedora should be working to make other people who care about Fedora able to achieve their goals.
21:02:14 <smooge> mizmo I think the big issues infrastructure deals with are people who don't fall into the target audience
21:02:34 <finalzone> sorry for interuption
21:02:44 <troy_s> abadger1999: The reality is that _all_ of Free Software is failing as a result of failing to address an audience.
21:02:52 <abadger1999> mizmo: Which means not having a target audience.
21:03:00 <abadger1999> troy_s: I dispute that.
21:03:24 <ryanlerch> abadger1999: what percentage of infrastructure's infrastructure is split between end-users or contributors? (ballpark figure)
21:03:25 <troy_s> abadger1999: You are welcome to.  Design for everyone is design for no one.  Sorry to interrupt the discourse however.
21:03:39 <abadger1999> troy_s: What metrics are you using?  What statistics back up those metrics?  What's your definition of failure?
21:03:48 <troy_s> abadger1999: About 1000 years of design.
21:03:56 <mizmo> abadger1999: well i think we're trying to branch out from being as insular as we've tended towards
21:04:18 <mizmo> abadger1999: e.g., if our mission is to spread free software and content, if we only keep it within an already-defined smaller circle we're not really 'spreading'
21:04:34 <abadger1999> troy_s: My metric is simple: Is it useful and getting more useful?  And the answer to that is yes.
21:04:38 <mizmo> abadger1999: but building/creating is different than sprading. and we do that too.
21:04:53 <troy_s> abadger1999: But again, you are using an _implied_ audience there.
21:05:10 <troy_s> Sorry.  PM to continue abadger1999.
21:05:17 <abadger1999> troy_s: No.  I'm not asking who it's useful for... but is it useful for anyone.
21:05:53 <abadger1999> mizmo: Did you really want to talk about this aspect of target audience when you askes "how come?" :-)
21:06:02 <mizmo> abadger1999: no, it was more
21:06:05 <abadger1999> I'd like to keep this to things that help you :-)
21:06:17 <mizmo> abadger1999: do you have questions about the target audience as defined by the fedora board, as to how that might affect your team
21:06:35 <abadger1999> mizmo: So what really is the definition that came from the board?
21:06:48 <abadger1999> that's the first thing that needs figuring out.
21:06:55 <mizmo> abadger1999: the definition is here: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-October/msg00350.html
21:06:59 <mizmo> abadger1999: it's had some modifications since though
21:07:03 <mizmo> let me give you a quick rundown
21:07:14 <mizmo> someone who
21:07:38 <mizmo> (1) May or may not be aware of FOSS but is interested in trying a change of operating system voluntarily.
21:08:11 <mizmo> (2) Is familiar with computers, but is not necessarily a hacker or developer. They're comfortable and successful at ordering products online. For full HDD installs, they own the computer and have permission to overwrite the HDD.
21:08:34 <mizmo> (3) They are willing and able to communicate about their experiences with Fedora. Filing bug reports, making blog posts, going to events, etc.
21:08:49 <mizmo> (4) Wants to use Fedora for general productivity, either using desktop applications or a Web browser.
21:09:03 <mizmo> So for some concrete anti-examples:
21:09:10 <mizmo> - we're not going after people who are happy Windows or Mac users.
21:09:40 <smooge> we are not going after people who don't know what an operating system is
21:09:44 <mizmo> - We're not going after folks who need instruction in how to use a computer mouse and who are afraid to type credit card numbers in a web form.
21:09:49 <mizmo> smooge: exactly
21:09:59 <mizmo> - We're not going after people who are going to try it and not talk about it.
21:10:22 <mizmo> - We're not going after people who are only going to use it for a web server and not as a desktop.
21:10:38 <mizmo> this is not to say Fedora won't be useful to the people we aren't going after.
21:10:47 <mizmo> it's to say, we're not targetting it towards them is all.
21:10:59 <mizmo> For example, there are plenty of guys who enjoy hello kitty
21:11:01 * mizmo looks at smooge
21:11:04 <abadger1999> So I read that but.... that doesn't entirely help in making choices in infrastructure itself.
21:11:08 <mizmo> but Hello Kitty is targeted towards teenage and younger girls.
21:11:09 <abadger1999> Having a target audience also does
21:11:10 <abadger1999> not preclude any feature development that goes beyond that audience.
21:11:34 <mizmo> exactly abadger1999
21:11:35 <mizmo> but
21:11:38 <abadger1999> To me, infrastructure's job is exactly what I said a good Fedora Contributors job is -- to be an enabler.
21:11:58 <mizmo> maybe though, you would want to think about enabling people in that target audience to contribute
21:12:08 * mchua is here - Marketing meeting over, we have a list o' user stories that we want to write / get written
21:12:08 * smooge was going to buy the hello kitty water cooler yesterday
21:12:15 * mchua reads up
21:12:20 <abadger1999> So when someone comes up with a need, I want to try and enable them to fill that need or else fill that need for them so that they can do more of their work.
21:12:27 <mizmo> eg Fedora Community is on track to enable new package maintainers.
21:12:41 <abadger1999> So my target audience in infrastructure is other contributors rather than the Fedora target audience.
21:13:07 <mizmo> but we are looking towards the target audience for recruiting new contributors
21:13:19 * finalzone has sent invitation to #fedora-fr comrades
21:14:02 <mizmo> i think all fedora contributors are a subset of the target audience description for the most part
21:14:17 * mchua all caught up now
21:14:22 <mizmo> they're really all prerequisities for someone to be a fedora contributor
21:14:49 <mchua> It sounds like we're still in the infrastructure interview? Should we start doing one like this for Marketing in parallel, maybe in the #fedora-mktg channel, or wait 'till the example is over?
21:14:50 <smooge> mizmo I guess I need to see how I could be more active in that (recruiting and such). The infrastructure can be passive in many ways in that what we are doing is make other peoples stuff work
21:15:17 <abadger1999> mizmo: Well.... they have to be open to FOSS to be an infrastructure contributor.
21:15:19 <mizmo> mchua: well i think we're getting close to wrapping up on infra
21:15:28 <mizmo> abadger1999: sure and they need to be in #1
21:15:32 <smooge> mchua, you might want to wait and get a lessons learned in case we wandered off point
21:15:42 <mizmo> abadger1999: 'open to change' is the core message behind the #1 point in the definition
21:16:11 <abadger1999> mizmo: Not necessarily... I've had a few people that I've enabled that aren't looking to change OS's.
21:16:17 <mizmo> abadger1999: it might make sense to explain, if you had questions about the target audience, how they would affect the persona development
21:16:27 <abadger1999> Collaboration with other Linux distros, etc.
21:16:32 <mchua> mizmo: oh, okay
21:16:33 * mchua waits
21:16:35 <mizmo> abadger1999: oh thats a good point
21:16:53 <abadger1999> mizmo: yeah... I'm not quite clear on how target audience even should be applied to infrastructure....
21:17:01 <abadger1999> Since we deal outside of it so frequently.
21:17:24 <mizmo> abadger1999: so you might wonder, 'what web properties of fedoraproject.org right now are the most important to the target audience?'
21:17:31 <mizmo> how that would affect the design process here
21:17:51 <mizmo> is we might survey select members of the target audience, and find out from them which properties they visit the most and how useful they find them / how often they visit
21:18:04 <mizmo> we might also work with you folks in analyzing the website logs to figure out which properties get visited most often
21:18:12 <mizmo> by doing that analysis
21:18:43 <ryanlerch> also, what parts of infrastructure is the target audience likely to use?
21:18:47 <mizmo> we understand a bit better what the target audience is looking for.
21:19:08 <mizmo> ryanlerch: that's another good question we can move forward with some research on
21:19:09 <smooge> well first it would be getting the bits, then getting an account, provisioning an account,  bugzilla and such. After that its getting sponsored and trained.
21:19:31 <mizmo> abadger1999: does it make more sense now?
21:19:50 * mchua brb
21:19:51 <abadger1999> mizmo: Sure... but that does give a lot more power to infrastructure than it traditionally has had.
21:20:10 <mizmo> abadger1999: how so?
21:20:37 <abadger1999> mizmo: We mostly enable rather than making the decision of what is right to be run on Fedora Infrastructure.
21:20:59 <troy_s> abadger1999: Read that posting from Havoc - http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2006-February/msg00174.html
21:21:06 <abadger1999> mizmo: So you come and say we've written f-community and we're going to run it on Fedora Infrastructure.
21:21:09 <troy_s> It specifically addresses architectural decisions.
21:21:09 <mizmo> so you operate more being service-oriented, than strategic
21:21:17 <abadger1999> mizmo: We don't get to say no.
21:21:22 <mizmo> and this might help shift you to be more strategic
21:21:23 <mizmo> and say,
21:21:34 <abadger1999> mizmo: We do get to say, you need to meet these rquirements to fit in with other services we offer.
21:21:38 <mizmo> 'well, we only have resources to do 6 projects, and your project is #7 on the list of persona priorities'
21:21:54 <abadger1999> mizmo: Depends.
21:22:44 <abadger1999> mizmo: I'm not sure infrastructure ants to get into that position or not.  It should be something to ask the team in a meeting.
21:22:51 <mizmo> fair enough!
21:22:57 <abadger1999> mizmo: Rather than just me :-)
21:23:02 <mizmo> we can do that for sure
21:23:09 <abadger1999> mizmo: If so, then it becomes a different matter --
21:23:10 <mizmo> that being said
21:23:22 <abadger1999> We have hw resouresand person resources.
21:23:26 <mizmo> would you have any specific questions about fedora users you'd want answered as part of our research process to help inform your team
21:23:44 <mizmo> are the example ones me and ryanlerch posed useful?
21:23:45 <abadger1999> We have much more control over the former than the latter.
21:25:05 <mizmo> so you might want to know how best to allocate the HW resources?
21:25:07 <abadger1999> mizmo: I think we'd want to start with the top level proposal... what kind of oversight do you (Board, maybe) want to give us over what runs in Infrastructure.
21:25:13 <abadger1999> mizmo: no...
21:25:23 <mizmo> oh okay
21:25:42 <mizmo> it might be cool, and im just brainstorming here
21:25:48 <mizmo> to assign various apps within infrastructure priority levls
21:25:51 <abadger1999> mizmo: That point was -- You come up and say we need to host zikula because we need a CMS.  We can probably ge tthe hw resources to do that.
21:25:52 <mizmo> in terms of how they affect users
21:26:01 <mizmo> i dont know if you've already done something like this,
21:26:07 <mizmo> but say class 1, class 2, class 3
21:26:25 * mchua on standby whenever Marketing is needed, just ping (will be trying to clean up some FUDCon stuff in the background)
21:26:26 <abadger1999> mizmo: But you come up to us and say, we need you to code a cms... we probably can't say "lmacken, stop working on community, y9u have to   write a CMS now."
21:26:35 <mizmo> right
21:27:44 <mizmo> okay
21:27:46 <mizmo> so im guessing then
21:27:47 <abadger1999> even if it is of a higher strategic priority.
21:28:10 <mizmo> you can't use priorities to reshift people resources
21:28:17 <abadger1999> <nod>
21:28:39 <mizmo> so you wouldn't have any questions about end users to understand priorities just because you can't really reshift them so much
21:28:44 <mizmo> maybe though
21:28:56 <mizmo> you might have questions about how the users discover and visit the properties
21:29:04 <abadger1999> That is very true.
21:29:06 <mizmo> e.g., do they use bookmarks or do they type them in the url bar manually
21:29:17 <mizmo> are they aware of all the properties
21:29:19 <abadger1999> And we'd be happy to help make the user's flow through the properties better.
21:29:33 <mizmo> does the amount of time/resources expended match up to what the users actually consume
21:29:58 <mizmo> okay cool
21:30:01 <mizmo> well that's what i got
21:30:04 <mizmo> thanks for all your time :)
21:30:10 <abadger1999> Sure thing
21:30:24 <mizmo> #example review
21:30:26 <mizmo> er
21:30:29 <mizmo> #topic example review
21:30:51 <mizmo> so you might note i started putting some notes into here, and i stuck my name next to the infrastructure stakeholder in the table https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Research_Plan#Stakeholders
21:31:03 <mizmo> is there anyone in here who wants to run a similar interview of marketing?
21:31:13 <mizmo> mchua can be your interviewee for marketing
21:31:24 <mizmo> tatica: is that something you would be willing to do?
21:32:21 <mizmo> ryanlerch: ?
21:33:41 <tatica> reading... is a little hard for me, you talk really fast when you are excited :)
21:34:04 <mizmo> lol
21:34:19 <mizmo> sorry for that
21:34:30 <tatica> np, I have to learn
21:34:51 * mchua will be ready in ~5min :)
21:34:59 <mizmo> tatica: if you want to grab the marketing team, then there are three questions to ask them, the same i asked abadger1999 and smooge:
21:35:01 <mizmo> *  How well do you think Fedora accomplishes  its stated goals in light of your role in the project?
21:35:01 <mizmo> * How is Fedora not meeting those goals?
21:35:01 <mizmo> * What questions do you have about Fedora's target audience that you'd like to see answers so that your team can help get Fedora closer to its goals?
21:35:07 <mizmo> tatica: do you want to claim that team to interview?
21:35:24 <tatica> lol, I was just thinking about marketing or ambassadors
21:35:38 <smooge> thank you for asking. I think I will to try via email later today to clarigy
21:35:49 <mizmo> smooge: that would be great
21:36:09 <tatica> those are the areas I'm really interested (besides design, but I can't :D )
21:36:11 <mizmo> tatica: maybe marketing would be better? you're pretty deeply involved in ambassadors. i think it's better to interview a team you're less involved with.
21:36:23 <tatica> yes
21:36:27 <tatica> marketing will be
21:36:38 <mizmo> tatica: okay ill put your name next to marketing :) mchua is gonna be ready for your questions in 5 minutes
21:37:03 <mizmo> ryanlerch: are you up for running an interview?
21:37:34 <ryanlerch> i can try
21:37:36 <ryanlerch> :)
21:38:03 * tatica is ready
21:38:30 <abadger1999> troy_s: This is the para I find most compelling in Havoc's statement http://fpaste.org/Nm2Y/ -- I'll pm with you about it.
21:38:34 <mizmo> sdziallas: would you be up for getting interviewed about the spins team?
21:38:51 <mizmo> ryanlerch: let's see who is around you could interview
21:38:55 * sdziallas waves
21:39:15 <sdziallas> (sorry, missed some stuff earlier)
21:39:21 <mizmo> sdziallas: it's all good
21:39:34 <mizmo> sdziallas: i was thinking ryanlerch could interview you about the spins team
21:39:47 <sdziallas> mizmo: sure thing!
21:39:59 <tatica> hmmm
21:40:00 <tatica> mizmo, ping
21:40:09 <tatica> mizmo, I rather not to do my homework today
21:40:20 <mizmo> tatica: ah okay
21:40:24 <tatica> because I possibly will have to leave at half
21:40:26 <mizmo> tatica: could you do it later in the week maybe?
21:40:38 <mizmo> tatica: you could even send mel an email for it
21:40:40 <tatica> sure!!! any day
21:40:42 <mizmo> or mail the marketing list
21:40:49 <tatica> but please not after 22:00utc :S
21:41:03 <mizmo> tatica: do you have time to draft the email and send to the marketing list now?
21:41:13 <tatica> sure!
21:41:18 <mizmo> tatica: okay sweet
21:41:22 <tatica> I'll do it now :D
21:41:25 <ryanlerch> hi sdziallas!
21:41:30 <mizmo> tatica: let me know when you hear back and we can work on filling out the table for marketing
21:41:32 <tatica> I just need to put those 3 questions, right?
21:41:33 <ryanlerch> anyone else here from the spins?
21:41:34 <sdziallas> hey ryanlerch!
21:41:39 <tatica> to marketing list or only mchua ?
21:41:51 * tatica apologizes :S
21:42:04 <mizmo> tatica: how about marketing list, mchua is on there and im sure she'll respond
21:42:14 <tatica> can I add some other questions?
21:42:24 <mizmo> tatica: sure!
21:42:28 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: how do you want to handle it: via e-mail, now here, at some point in IRC?
21:42:31 <tatica> excelent!
21:42:34 <tatica> sending mail now
21:42:52 <ryanlerch> i'm happy here and now.
21:42:56 <mizmo> tatica: remember our goal is to figure out how to build our personas, so we need to find out what marketing thinks about our users and what questions they have about our users so we can go reearch them
21:43:01 <mizmo> s/reearch/research
21:43:37 <tatica> sure
21:43:42 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: okey dokey (it's getting late over here, so bear with me, but let's do this)
21:43:48 <mchua> tatica: I'm here pretty much any time.
21:43:57 <tatica> and btw... "personas" means people in spanish :D
21:43:59 <mchua> tatica: if you want me to start with replying to your email to the marketing list, I can do that
21:44:09 <mchua> tatica: or we can talk on IRC for a bit - it's your call.
21:44:18 <tatica> mchua, oh, excelent!!
21:45:09 <mchua> mizmo: the list from the user stories sprint is at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_stories - how can we make this useful to you folks?
21:45:30 <mchua> mizmo: those are the stories we want to tell (or find and then tell) for Marketing materials for F13
21:45:35 <mchua> (well, the list so far)
21:45:40 <tatica> I think I rather IRC, but not at this time; can you tomorrow at 16:00 utc?
21:45:50 <mchua> tatica: let me check.
21:46:21 <mizmo> mchua: i think these are great! they could help support specific personas (e.g., an art and music geek persona ;-) )
21:47:16 <mchua> tatica: ah, sorry, I have a lunch meeting then - I could do before 1400 UTC or after 2100 UTC for sure, though.
21:47:56 <tatica> mchua, oki, I'll be connected all day (between 12 and 22) so when you have time just ping me
21:48:13 <mchua> tatica: Ok! I will do that. Probably earlier rather than later.
21:48:30 * tatica is so excited with "personas"
21:48:33 <ryanlerch> sdziallas: How well do you think Fedora accomplishes its stated goals [1] in light of the role of spins in the project?
21:48:45 <mchua> tatica: I'm in CST, GMT -6, btw
21:48:47 <mchua> tatica: me too :)
21:48:50 <ryanlerch> [1] - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Overview#Our_Mission to summarize the main mission is: "The Fedora Project's mission is to lead the advancement of free and open source software and content as a collaborative community."
21:48:58 <tatica> maybe because is something I can understand without use translate.google :$
21:49:43 <tatica> mchua, I'm -4:30
21:51:26 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: [non-quotable side-note: starting with the tough ones, right? ;)] so well. I think the Spins within the Fedora Project are adding an incredible value. In fact, the whole process of remixing Fedora is awesome. It's insofar great, as it makes it easy to spread not only Fedora, but also to adjust it to people's needs.
21:52:32 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: take for example Moblin. Peter Robinson has been doing great work on getting it into Fedora. now people are interested in it. what happens then is that he just moves ahead, write some small file, and create a Moblin Remix. [I'm well aware that those are not spins, but it's a good example of how it spreads Fedora & especially open source, imo]
21:52:34 * tatica is leaving
21:52:39 <tatica> nites people! :D
21:53:11 <sdziallas> good night tatica
21:53:15 <finalzone> nite tatica,  buena noches
21:53:23 <msourada> nite tatica
21:53:31 <tatica> :D
21:53:34 <asamaras> nite tatica
21:53:42 <mchua> good night!
21:53:53 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: through that remix (which is presumably going to become an official spin for F13), he is able to promote one of the most innovative netbook environments - Moblin - and one of the most innovative operating systems - Fedora - at the same time.
21:54:03 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: [is that too marketing-ish?]
21:54:08 <mizmo> EvilBob: you around?
21:54:14 <ryanlerch> sdziallas: nah, all good :)
21:54:21 <EvilBob> I am
21:54:39 <ryanlerch> do you feel spins help convert "users" to "contributors"?
21:54:46 <mizmo> EvilBob: would you mind being interviewed? :)
21:55:36 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: in a way, yes. the way of creating kickstart files and remixing Fedora is already documented, but we can still get better - the Spin SIG has discussed adding some instructions to the wiki, if I recall correctly, too.
21:55:42 <EvilBob> mizmo: I don't really think I am the right person, I would suggest Kevin Fenzi
21:56:03 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: the point is: the easier the process of remixing / respinning Fedora is, the more likely it is to turn users into contributors.
21:56:07 <mizmo> EvilBob: okie, what is his irc nick
21:56:12 <EvilBob> nirik
21:56:15 <mizmo> kk
21:56:36 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: not only because they are in fact spreading Fedora that way, but also because we'd make it easy for them to get involved.
21:56:57 <mizmo> im gonna open up #fedora-interview for another interview
21:57:00 <mizmo> if anybody wants to join pop on over
21:57:23 <ryanlerch> sdziallas: how do you feel we could achieve the goal better?
21:57:35 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: [in case a bit of history is needed] that's how I got involved. I started with education stuff in Fedora and found myself then leading the Education SIG and creating an Education Spin
21:57:50 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: (that's related to the former question, going to take on this one now)
21:58:00 <ryanlerch> thanks!
21:58:26 <ryanlerch> anyone else, feel free to comment, and ask questions!
21:58:45 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: if we want to make it *really* easy, we still need to lower the barrier. creating a kickstart file is not that hard. but you can't do it in ten minutes if you've never done it before.
21:58:52 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: but that's what I think we should get at.
21:58:55 <mizmo> nirik is available in 1-2 hours so i might try to interview him then
21:59:20 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: Jeroen van Meeuwen's revisor tool is again a step in the right direction.
21:59:49 <finalzone> quick question, what ever happened to Design spin?
21:59:53 <ryanlerch> sdziallas: is there anything the spins can do to encourage users to become contributors to other areas in fedora (other than spins..)
22:00:14 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: but imagine, if - speaking from an educational perspective - a teacher could create *his* personalized Fedora image by easily clicking through a little GUI...
22:00:16 <mizmo> finalzone: no one driving it
22:00:23 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: yes, definitely!
22:00:53 <sdziallas> mizmo: if nobody does, I wouldn't mind stepping in for F13...
22:01:11 <mizmo> sdziallas: that would be sweet actually
22:01:22 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: again, taking the Education Spin as an example:
22:01:42 <sdziallas> mizmo: it's one of the things I really enjoy doing, so... I might be able to help there :)
22:02:11 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: our goal is it to make it as easy as possible for students and teachers to join (educational) open source projects.
22:02:36 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: that includes providing docs, getting them in touch with devs (e.g. on IRC), including development tools... stuff like this.
22:02:57 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: mchua can tell a lot of cool stuff on this philosophy when being asked about POSSE, I think :)
22:04:01 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: so it's the goal of *enabling* users to do something, to actually get them to contribute.
22:04:03 <ryanlerch> do you feel communication between sub-projects is working well (from the perspective of spins)
22:04:13 <finalzone> sdziallas, thank you. Design sweet will be an asset for other designers
22:04:36 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: ( that might be of interest:http://spins.fedoraproject.org/edu/#about )
22:05:05 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: it's... probably improvable. but that's the case because it's such a new experience. release engineering is composing more spins than ever, if I'm well informed.
22:05:23 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: so it includes a lot of stuff, like testing nightly builds, making sure everything is ready, approved, and so on.
22:05:40 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: but generally, the Spin SIG acts as a kind of central place, I think.
22:06:12 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: we could definitely use help there and there also meeting every Monday evening on IRC, if anybody wants to join.
22:06:39 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: mostly there are just questions that need to be ironed out. but we're all learning with the process. and that's a good thing, imo.
22:06:58 <mizmo> sdziallas: what level of technical expertise does someone need to contribute to a spin
22:07:59 <sdziallas> mizmo: it depends... contributing to a spin could already mean suggesting packages / applications - which could be done by everybody, involved in an area of interest.
22:08:37 <mizmo> if im a member of fedora's defined target audience
22:08:58 <mizmo> and i have an interest in some specific domain. maybe im an artist :) is the design spin where i should be going first?
22:09:06 <mizmo> to learn what apps to install?
22:09:10 * ianweller waves to all
22:09:19 <mizmo> but do i need to install the design spin to do that? or can i use the work the design spin has done on the main desktop download?
22:09:20 <mizmo> hey ianweller
22:09:43 <sdziallas> mizmo: ideally, it'd probably be like Chitlesh is doing it with FEL...
22:10:07 <sdziallas> mizmo: in that case, you could download whatever edition of Fedora you wanted, and run yum groupinstal <my area of interest>
22:10:22 <mizmo> sdziallas: so the spin isn't just exclusively an iso... it's a package group as well
22:10:30 <mizmo> and maybe even a gathering spot for Fedora users of a shared interest
22:10:32 * ryanlerch did not know that
22:10:36 <sdziallas> mizmo: and if you knew already you wanted to do something related to... say, art, you could just download the spin.
22:10:47 <sdziallas> mizmo: I'm not sure, I don't think it's a spin per definition...
22:10:48 <mizmo> ryanlerch: me neither! :)
22:11:00 <mizmo> it might be useful for end users if it was thugh
22:11:15 <mchua> What's missing from this definition of a spin: "An .iso that comes with a specific package group preinstalled."
22:11:16 <mizmo> if they already have fedora installed they might not want to have to reinstall to get the benefits of the spin of interest
22:11:50 <sdziallas> mizmo: but it's the way Chitlesh handles it for FEL, to make it easily accessible for all users of Fedora.
22:11:50 <sdziallas> so the spin itself is still the .iso - but a spin's kickstart file could of course pull in a certain comps group.
22:11:54 <sdziallas> mizmo: exactly!
22:12:11 <sdziallas> mizmo: which is why the idea of using package groups is... (imo) neat :)
22:12:31 * sdziallas self-notes that he needs to look at that model, too.
22:12:51 <ryanlerch> okies, ready for the last question?
22:12:52 <mizmo> so it seems like maybe the spins group would want to know what ways would make it easiest for our target users to try out spins
22:13:39 <mchua> I might say that spins is a group that can target specific user groups that we may not have yet defined
22:13:46 <finalzone> Design is a very broad word, does it include those who do animations?
22:13:59 <mizmo> finalzone: we dont have any good tools for that right now so it wouldnt
22:14:07 <mchua> or rather, that the Spins SIG is what enables *any* user-group to make a version of Fedora - and a little community of practice around that version - that Works For Them (TM)
22:14:26 <mizmo> finalzone: we had the idea a long time ago of maybe having a creative suite that has everything, and smaller ones for video, audio, graphic designer each
22:14:27 <sdziallas> mchua: *goestrademarksandcopyrights*? :)
22:14:51 <mchua> sdziallas: all right, all right, I'll use something else for ironic emphasis :)
22:15:35 <sdziallas> mchua: hehe ;)
22:16:30 <finalzone> mizmo, okay, in that case, does that mean spin can allow to specify a group installation i.e audio, video in one DVD?
22:16:30 <sdziallas> mchua: did I already say I like your definition? I didn't?... well, it's interesting, yes.
22:16:40 <mizmo> finalzone: it depends.
22:16:52 <mizmo> finalzone: i think for the creative suite there would not be enough room on a dvd
22:18:12 <finalzone> mizmo, could I ask why?
22:18:23 <mchua> sdziallas: well, I don't know how closely my concept of a spin matches the actual definition - the Spins SIG folks own that definition
22:18:24 <mizmo> finalzone: because all the apps that would be involved are bigger than a dvd?
22:18:52 <mchua> sdziallas: i'm tossing out my concept because I'm curious how far off it is from the current one - I am pretty sure I am missing something / getting stuff wrong
22:19:00 <sdziallas> mchua: admittedly, I haven't read into that definition for a while (the SIGs)...
22:19:13 <sdziallas> mchua: well, one point is that we should be careful about not getting 0xf13 too angry.
22:19:46 <sdziallas> mchua: what I mean is: every Fedora Spin (except for the ones which are only in GIT as config files, afaik) gets currently built by rel-eng.
22:20:27 <sdziallas> mchua: now we probably wouldn't want to move out and swamp rel-eng with a load of build requests.
22:20:31 <sdziallas> mchua: how about this:
22:20:52 <finalzone> mizmo: what about using main apps, say Gimp, Inkcape, Scribus for example?
22:21:12 <mizmo> finalzone: those are fine for a graphic design spin. but im talking creative suite which would be much bigger. graphics, video, audio, 3d, etc
22:21:46 <sdziallas> a Fedora Remix is something that enables you to make your personally modified version based on Fedora (for a certain user group or just yourself) - that still Just Works.
22:22:26 <sdziallas> if you want to get it officially into the Fedora Project, to allow everybody to profit from your work and to enrich Fedora with it and your work with the Fedora brand, go to the Spin SIG.
22:22:30 <sdziallas> mchua: ^^ (?)
22:23:09 <finalzone> mizmo you are right, about the DVD, how about the double-layers versuin?
22:23:30 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: another question in the queue?
22:23:31 <mizmo> finalzone: it's really hard to say without a list of applications to query for size and adding up the sizes
22:23:52 <ryanlerch> sdziallas: What questions do you have about Fedora's target audience[2] that you'd like to see answers so that your team can help get Fedora closer to its goals?
22:23:52 <ryanlerch> [2] - Target Audience is someone who:
22:23:52 <ryanlerch> (1) May or may not be aware of FOSS but is interested in trying a change of operating system voluntarily.
22:23:52 <ryanlerch> (2) Is familiar with computers, but is not necessarily a hacker or developer. They're comfortable and successful at ordering products online. For full HDD installs, they own the computer and have permission to overwrite the HDD.
22:23:56 <ryanlerch> (3) They are willing and able to communicate about their experiences with Fedora. Filing bug reports, making blog posts, going to events, etc.
22:23:59 <ryanlerch> (4) Wants to use Fedora for general productivity, either using desktop applications or a Web browser.
22:24:57 <mchua> sdziallas: that sounds like what I *think* a spin/remix is, but what I think doesn't change what the actual definition is as I'm not from the Spins SIG
22:25:32 * mchua is quiet and lets sdziallas and ryanlerch finish their interview
22:25:56 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: *puts education hat on* - if you're interested in education, as a student, parent, kid, teacher, no matter what - go and give it a try. and let us know what we can do for you.
22:26:10 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: it's hard to guess, especially in the educational sector, how we can fit our users' needs best.
22:26:17 * finalzone follows mchue
22:27:30 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: so please tell us about what you liked, disliked, just e-mail the education-list.
22:27:30 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: it doesn't really matter how much aware of FOSS you're. if you aren't, yet, but are interested, we'll all be very happy to help you along.
22:27:43 <mizmo> sdziallas: are there questions you would want to ask potential users to find out how to get them involved?
22:27:53 <ryanlerch> sdziallas: focusing on (3), is there anything spins could do to get them invloved
22:27:57 <mizmo> sdziallas: eg maybe you might want to know what kind of spin would interestthem?
22:28:06 <sdziallas> ryanlerch: [I'm putting it that way, because we've been lacking feedback for a long time. TeachingOpenSource has improved that, though]
22:28:47 <sdziallas> mizmo: yes, that sounds reasonable. though I'm a bit afraid of the "all-10Gig-w00t!-package"-blu-ray solution ;)
22:29:03 <mizmo> sdziallas: you wont know until you ask though :)
22:29:23 <ryanlerch> does the new spins site have a feedback mechanism?
22:29:28 <mizmo> sdziallas: maybe, in light of that, you'd want to know whether or not they have a cd burner or a dvd burner? then you can undrestand what formats helps the spins
22:29:28 <mchua> I think one of the lessons I've learned from the education spin is the importance of spins being not just a technical product but also a community of practice.
22:29:30 <ryanlerch> or is it all though lists
22:29:31 <mizmo> ryanlerch: it doesn't no
22:29:39 <mizmo> ryanlerch: just the spins list
22:29:41 <sdziallas> mizmo: *puts spins hat on* if there's an area where we're currently missing something, I think it would be good to identify that section.
22:29:48 <mchua> Because otherwise you get someone making something that nobody else knows about / talks about / helps improve / uses.
22:29:49 <sdziallas> mizmo: to make progress there, yes.
22:30:22 <sdziallas> mizmo: that might be interesting, yes (I still recall your awesome "how do you install Fedora" survey, btw)
22:30:34 <sdziallas> mchua: +1
22:30:35 <mizmo> sdziallas, mchua , ryanlerch so towards the community of practice youmight want to know things like, are members of the target audience comfortable with mailing lists? do they prefer forums? how do they like to communicateonline
22:31:07 <mchua> +1
22:31:10 <mchua> how do they already communicate
22:31:11 <mchua> ?
22:31:13 <mizmo> if you want to help fedora meet our goals by making it easy for members of the target audience to participate in spins, a successful community of practice will help
22:31:21 <sdziallas> mizmo: (mclasen might be interested in CD / DVD / USB results, too)
22:31:24 <ryanlerch> mchua: do they communicate?
22:31:28 <mizmo> sdziallas: absolutely
22:31:42 <mchua> I almost wonder if spins should go into existing communities of practice (who, by definition, communicate amongst themselves already) and offer to make a spin for them
22:31:56 <mizmo> sdziallas: maybe you'd want to know why, if they aren't using a spin, why not
22:32:32 <mchua> rather than starting with the spin and then trying to build a group around it.
22:32:47 <mchua> sdziallas: I think that's the difference between the first edu spin and the posse one - the posse crew was already a group
22:32:57 <sdziallas> mchua: I'm going to nag you at FUDCon about this workshop thing... if we could get such a customization thing hacked up... well, let's see ;)
22:32:57 <sdziallas> mizmo: yes! *nod*
22:32:57 <sdziallas> mchua: and +1.
22:33:01 <mizmo> fel is successfull perhaps because its not just a fedora spin, but the gathering place for anybody interested in foss electronic tools
22:33:16 <sdziallas> mchua: yup... and they're more and more moving in the same direction :)
22:33:24 <mizmo> the other spins, eg the games spin, might have to reach out to foss gaming communities since they might be already established
22:33:25 <mizmo> in comparison
22:33:34 <mchua> mizmo: +1
22:33:37 <sdziallas> mizmo: yeah!
22:33:52 <ryanlerch> then you have the complexity of "design"
22:33:57 <mizmo> so a good target user question would be, what communities do you participate in today to talk aobut your interest
22:34:23 <ryanlerch> that has a userbase, a fedora contribuotrs group, and mutiple upstream communities also
22:35:06 <mchua> pitch spins as "a service Fedora can provide to your group (that already exists)"
22:35:34 <sdziallas> mchua: strong +1
22:35:57 <sdziallas> mchua: from what I realized over the time, this usually proves to be much better working than the other way round.
22:36:06 <sdziallas> mchua: at least, that's what I suppose ;)
22:36:37 <mizmo> maybe another question then
22:36:44 <mizmo> 'what services can the fedora spins group provide the target audience'
22:37:00 * finalzone is thinking about game like armacycles and torcs for more exposures
22:38:36 <mchua> just like you might go to $serviceprovider to get, I dunno, a mailing list, you'd come to fedora (probably remixes, here) to get "your OS"
22:38:40 <mizmo> finalzone: we could talk to the upstream game developers and let themknow they're in the fedora games spin
22:38:45 <mizmo> maybe make a little webpagebutton they could put on their page
22:39:37 * mchua reflects on the origin of the word "distribution" (as in "Linux Distribution")
22:40:22 <finalzone> mizmo, that is logical way to do. Afterall, armacycles is one of example
22:41:27 <mchua> mizmo: so is "Spin developer" a user profile? or do we look for a user profile for each spin? or... not sure how to organize thoughts on this.
22:42:22 * sdziallas has probably brought some of this confusion with different roles in here
22:42:28 <mizmo> mchua: i think 'spin developer' is too implementation specific
22:42:35 <mizmo> mchua: eg, 'school teacher' might be better
22:42:48 <mizmo> and the school teacher is interested in getting her students using the computer for science
22:43:05 <mizmo> so she uses the education spin and shows her students celestia and stellarium
22:43:23 <mizmo> (5th grade science teacher maybe)
22:43:49 <mizmo> we should try to organize based on what people do in their everyday lives
22:43:57 <mizmo> i dont think people come in with the specific goal, 'i want to be a spin developers'
22:44:06 <mizmo> more they come in with a goal from their life that spins end up helping solve
22:44:35 <mchua> aye
22:45:13 <mizmo> well
22:45:17 <mizmo> i am gonna call this a meeting
22:45:21 <mizmo> but i think we've got some good progress :)
22:45:31 <mizmo> we've got two interviews done, one already written up, and one additional one planned
22:45:48 <mizmo> is there anyone lurking in here who'd like to step up and work on one of the remaining (10!) interviews to be done?
22:45:51 * mchua puts "ping tatica" on calendar for the morning
22:46:20 * spliction is lurking
22:46:22 <mchua> mizmo: what's left?
22:46:40 <mchua> mizmo: I'll take one, if the timing isn't super-urgent (I can do "within a week," not necessarily "within a day")
22:46:46 * sdziallas adds "art spin" to his list; drops out soon cause school starting early tomorrow...
22:47:00 <mizmo> fedora board, fedora desktop team, fedora qa, fedora design team (someone could interview me for that), release engineering, ambassadors, websites, help forums, contributors
22:47:14 <mizmo> they're listed in this able: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Research_Plan#Stakeholders
22:47:22 <mizmo> spliction: would you like to help interview?
22:47:47 <mchua> mizmo: give me one or two you think it'll be hardest to find interviewers for.
22:48:04 <mchua> (or wait a few days and give me the ones that are left from that list)
22:48:27 <mizmo> mchua: maybe desktop and qa
22:48:36 <spliction> mizmo: Yeah sure. I'm new and unbiased :)
22:49:16 <mizmo> spliction: you could interview me for the design team one
22:49:20 <mizmo> spliction: do you have time to do thatnow?
22:49:20 <mchua> mizmo: oh I'm actually having lunch with mclasen next Thursday. I might be able to do that in person even.
22:49:30 <mizmo> mchua: that would work well :)
22:49:40 <mchua> mizmo: and I'll ping the QA list to find someone for that. Cool!
22:49:48 <mizmo> yay thanks mchua
22:49:49 <mizmo> :)
22:50:00 <mchua> mizmo: when's the next sprint/check-in on this?
22:50:14 <mizmo> mchua: i think ill call one for next week. maybe next friday
22:50:24 <mchua> oo, fudbus sprint!
22:50:29 <mizmo> oh thats right
22:50:32 <mizmo> thats fudbus day
22:50:34 <mizmo> i think that might be fun
22:50:38 <mizmo> cuz a lot ofinterviewees will be on the bus :)
22:50:39 <mchua> I think it would be AWESOME
22:50:52 <ianweller> i'm so excited for fudbus
22:50:58 <mizmo> im on a BUS
22:51:01 <mizmo> got my FLIPPY FLOPPIES
22:51:05 * mchua cracks up
22:51:11 <ianweller> it's gonna be an awesome experience
22:51:15 <ianweller> hold on
22:51:18 <ianweller> let me adjust fudbus.svg
22:51:19 <ianweller> er
22:51:22 <ianweller> fudboat.svg*
22:51:26 <spliction> mizmo: Sorry its getting a bit late here, could we do it tommorow?
22:51:33 <mchua> Ok, I'm going to go run now.
22:51:40 <mizmo> spliction: im probably not going to be around tomorrow, i have to travel for thanksgiving
22:51:40 <mchua> and then I'll be back to do MORE WORK
22:52:00 <mizmo> spliction: how often do you come on irc?
22:52:07 <mchua> well, this is fun non-$dayjob stuff for me right here, but I have work-work to do at some point also.
22:52:10 <mizmo> lol later mchua thanks for all the help
22:52:58 <spliction> mizmo:most days, more often than not.
22:53:07 <mizmo> spliction: what time zone are you in?
22:53:17 * mizmo is in boston, east coast US time
22:53:48 <spliction> gmt (london england)
22:54:14 <mizmo> spliction: ah okay so does this time of day work best for you? (it must be late evening there?)
22:54:27 <mizmo> spliction: if you come in here monday afternoon/evening for yourself, i should be around and we could do it then
22:56:44 <spliction> mizmo: its 11pm here, yeah that sounds good to me. 5pm here is lunch time for you isn't it?
22:57:13 <mizmo> spliction: it's 6 pm here so yeh. i'm usually back from lunch by 5:30pm your time
22:57:45 <spliction> mizmo: cool beanz
22:57:46 <mizmo> so any time after then i should be hanging out in this channel :)
22:57:49 <mizmo> sweet thanks!!!
22:58:22 <mizmo> yay
22:58:24 <mizmo> #endmeeting