17:00:45 <jwf> #startmeeting Fedora CommOps (2018-12-12)
17:00:45 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Dec 12 17:00:45 2018 UTC.
17:00:45 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
17:00:45 <zodbot> The chair is jwf. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:45 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:45 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_commops_(2018-12-12)'
17:00:45 <jwf> #meetingname commops
17:00:45 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'commops'
17:00:45 <jwf> #nick commops
17:00:50 <jwf> #topic Agenda
17:00:55 <jwf> #link https://infinote.fedoraproject.org/cgit/infinote/tree/meeting-templates/fedora-commops-meeting-next
17:01:00 <jwf> #info (1) Roll call / Q&A
17:01:01 <jwf> #info (2) Announcements
17:01:01 <jwf> #info (3) Action items from last meeting
17:01:01 <jwf> #info (4) Tickets
17:01:01 <jwf> #info (5) Open floor
17:01:07 <jwf> #topic Roll call / Q&A
17:01:12 <jwf> #info Name; Timezone; Sub-projects/Interest Areas
17:01:12 <jwf> #action commops New members, please introduce yourself on the CommOps Discourse [ https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/c/project/commops ]
17:01:14 <jwf> If this is your first time at a CommOps meeting, feel free to introduce yourself to everyone and say hello! If anyone has any questions before we get started with the rest of the agenda, now is also a good time to ask.
17:01:28 <jwf> #info Justin W. Flory; UTC-5; CommOps, Diversity and Inclusion Team, Fedora Badges
17:01:38 <jwf> Hi everyone \o/
17:02:21 <nb> .hello nbn
17:02:22 <zodbot> nb: Sorry, but you don't exist
17:02:23 <nb> .hello nb
17:02:25 <zodbot> nb: nb 'Nick Bebout' <nick@bebout.net>
17:02:27 <bt0> #info Alberto Rodriguez S; UTC-6;CommOps, Marketing, Fedora-join, dotnet and more
17:03:16 <jwf> #chair nb bt0
17:03:16 <zodbot> Current chairs: bt0 jwf nb
17:03:18 <meskarune> .hello meskarune
17:03:18 <zodbot> meskarune: meskarune 'Dolores Portalatin' <meskarune@archwomen.org>
17:03:21 <jwf> #chair meskarune
17:03:21 <zodbot> Current chairs: bt0 jwf meskarune nb
17:05:03 <bpabon> .hello blaise
17:05:04 <zodbot> bpabon: blaise 'Blaise R Pabon' <blaise@gmail.com>
17:05:23 <commops-watch> pagure.issue.comment.added -- jflory7 commented on ticket fedora-commops#195: "Launch a Teleirc volunteer sysadmin group / SIG" https://pagure.io/fedora-commops/issue/195#comment-546171
17:05:34 <commops-watch> pagure.issue.edit -- jflory7 edited the priority fields of ticket fedora-commops#195 https://pagure.io/fedora-commops/issue/195
17:05:40 <jwf> Hi bpabon!
17:05:43 <jwf> #chair bpabon
17:05:43 <zodbot> Current chairs: bpabon bt0 jwf meskarune nb
17:05:51 <jwf> Okay, we are at five minutes past. Let's get started!
17:05:54 <JohnMH> #info John M. Harris, Jr.; UTC-5; CommOps (member), Games (member), 3D Printing (member)
17:05:59 <jwf> #topic Announcements
17:06:02 <jwf> #chair JohnMH
17:06:02 <zodbot> Current chairs: JohnMH bpabon bt0 jwf meskarune nb
17:06:09 <jwf> #info === Fedora Elections in progress - voting closes Thu, Dec. 20 ===
17:06:09 <jwf> #link https://admin.fedoraproject.org/voting/
17:06:09 <jwf> #info Find candidate interviews on the Community Blog or linked from the voting app. Be sure to get your votes in before the polls close on Thursday, Dec. 20th.
17:06:24 <jwf> #info === "Fedora's Strategic Direction: An Update from the Council" ===
17:06:24 <jwf> #link https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/fedoras-strategic-direction-an-update-from-the-council/
17:06:24 <jwf> #info mattdm shares a vision of the future, as discussed last week at the Fedora Council hackfest. The Council is looking for feedback on the proposal.
17:06:38 <jwf> #info === "FPgM report: 2018-49" ===
17:06:38 <jwf> #link https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/fpgm-report-2018-49/
17:06:38 <jwf> #info You didn't even have to guess – bcotton has the inside scoop of Fedora development in this week's report. Note the major Red Hat Bugzilla upgrade and the cassandra package maintainers looking for help.
17:06:39 <jwf> <eof>
17:06:50 <jwf> These are the three things I had. Anyone else have something to share?
17:07:00 <bt0> not from me
17:07:25 <bpabon> I didn't complete my ai
17:07:35 <bpabon> From last meeting
17:08:28 <jwf> bpabon: No worries. I missed some of mine too. We can follow-up on them in a moment :-)
17:08:32 <jwf> Announcements, going once…
17:08:41 <jwf> Going twice…
17:08:51 <jwf> And thrice.
17:09:00 <jwf> #topic Action items from last meeting
17:09:07 <jwf> #link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/2018-12-04-docs-contributability-tests-and-brainstorming-on-on-boarding/778
17:09:07 <jwf> #info How This Works: We look at past #action items from the last meeting for quick follow-up. If a task is completed, we move on to the next one. If it isn't, we get an update and re-action if needed. If no status, we'll try to get a quick update and move forward.
17:09:19 <jwf> #info === [INCOMPLETE] "jwf Draft set of user testing scenarios for contributing to docs, create new tickets for each test scenario. Due: before 2019." ===
17:09:25 <jwf> #action jwf Draft set of user testing scenarios for contributing to docs, create new tickets for each test scenario, ask for Design Team feedback. Due: before 2019
17:09:25 <jwf> #info Note: Another action item to request Design Team feedback is part of the required follow-up for this to be complete. It is now included in this action item.
17:09:31 <jwf> #info === [COMPLETE] "jwf Start new Discourse thread about the Dilemma of the Conflicting Meetings" ===
17:09:39 <jwf> #link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/new-commops-meeting-time-in-2019/787
17:09:39 <jwf> #info Choosing a new time for meetings in 2019. Please review the suggested options and let us know your preference if one time works better than another for you to join.
17:09:49 <jwf> #info === [INCOMPLETE] "jwf File new tickets to discuss / plan out ideas from 2018-12-04 meeting further" ===
17:09:58 <jwf> #help If some folks are willing to help with this, it would help to distribute the ticket filing. And then jwf doesn't have to re-explain the original ideas that came from others last week. (this is on the agenda for tickets — we will revisit soon!)
17:09:59 <commops-bot> meetbot.meeting.item.help -- jflory7 called for help in the "Fedora CommOps (2018-12-12)" meeting in #fedora-commops: "If some folks are willing to help with this, it would help to distribute the ticket filing. And then jwf doesn't have to re-explain the original ideas that came from others last week. (this is on the agenda for tickets — we will revisit
17:10:00 <commops-bot> soon!)"
17:10:13 <jwf> bpabon: You're up next – did you want to choose a new follow-up date for your action item?
17:10:31 <jwf> Do you want to aim for next week or after the winter holidays?
17:11:05 <bpabon_> I am working on it today, so let's say next week
17:11:12 <jwf> Okay, super.
17:11:31 <jwf> #action bpabon Create a flowchart based on 2018-12-04 meeting discussion (around conventions / expectations for filing a CommOps ticket), ready for review by Wed, Dec. 19th
17:11:38 <jwf> #info === [PARTIALLY COMPLETE] "jwf Post Discourse summary / do ticket updates from meeting this week" ===
17:11:45 <jwf> #link https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/2018-12-04-docs-contributability-tests-and-brainstorming-on-on-boarding/778
17:11:45 <jwf> #info Summary is up, but not all tickets have updates. Some of the things we discussed need new tickets, as per an earlier action item.
17:11:59 <jwf> And that's all the action items from last time. Let's cut to the chase for today's meeting:
17:12:05 <jwf> #topic Tickets
17:12:05 <jwf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-commops/issues?status=Open&priority=20
17:12:24 * nb mentions that he wishes we used mailing lists instead of discourse
17:12:26 <jwf> #topic Ticket #159: "Run a "Write the Docs" event targeting Fedora support groups"
17:12:26 <jwf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-commops/issue/159
17:12:26 <jwf> #info Next steps: This ticket is currently too big, now that we had a chance to talk it through. We had several great ideas from last week's meeting about how to divide this up. Let's try to come up with how we want to break this up and file new tickets for these ideas.
17:12:36 <JohnMH> nb: I agree
17:13:11 <meskarune> maybe the docs event could be like a hackathon
17:13:19 <meskarune> with teams that compete
17:13:24 <jwf> nb: At open floor, let's have a chat about it. I've had success setting Discourse as a mailing list, but maybe we should document it. But let's hold off on it until we get through this.
17:13:33 <jwf> meskarune: Basically a hackathon is the idea I was going for :-)
17:13:37 <meskarune> and you could have stuff like "edit X number of pages" and "create X number of new pages"
17:13:45 <jwf> But I hadn't thought about gamifying it like that.
17:13:53 <meskarune> "fix the most spelling mistakes"
17:14:11 <meskarune> I think it would make it fun
17:14:36 <jwf> Yeah, me too :-)
17:14:42 <bpabon_> ...maybe plant an easter egg somewhere....
17:14:48 <jwf> Okay, let me bring back some of the ideas we had last week and then get this one added too.
17:14:55 <jwf> #idea Creating “cheatsheet” of common Fedora tools, applications, and resources used across project
17:15:03 <jwf> #idea Find way to better document group contacts for different SIGs / sub-projects
17:15:11 <jwf> #idea Curate list of recurring “easyfix” tasks for CommOps
17:15:19 <jwf> #idea Write a "Fedora jargon cheatsheet"
17:15:29 <bpabon_> better yet... stage a competition between rival schools, like Cal and Stanford....
17:16:16 <jwf> #idea "Game-ifying" a docs event, possibly having teams to compete for different goals (e.g. "edit X number of pages", "create X number of new pages", etc.)
17:16:52 <jwf> And it would be cool to target this to students. This reminds me of the old idea about the Fedora student pack
17:17:03 <bpabon_> (When I worked at Sun, schools would sometimes compete for how many SETI@home blocks they could process using the HPC cluster that we donated)
17:17:23 <jwf> For example, at my university, there are enough people who are involved with Fedora where a team of 2-3 people might be interested in playing along with this
17:17:36 <jwf> But hopefully we don't only target students too
17:18:05 <jwf> mattdm suggested something about requesting budget for things like swag and misc. things, and I hadn't thought about it before. But now… this seems like a really cool idea.
17:18:29 <jwf> We could offer prizes such as the UnixStickers Fedora swag, from stickers to hoodies. Maybe even offer gift cards
17:18:46 <jwf> #idea Offering prizes for different categories, e.g. UnixStickers swag, gift cards, etc.
17:19:12 <bt0> great idea
17:19:21 <bt0> +1
17:19:31 <jwf> One of the things I hoped we could do in this meeting is to split up some of these ideas and have some folks file new CommOps tickets with these ideas. Then, we can make sure these ideas don't fall off the table after the new year :-)
17:19:32 <bt0> well me need to ask, but +1
17:19:42 <meskarune> you could have some fun stats too like "most edited page" or "most linked urls" or "largest word count"
17:19:55 <meskarune> so after people can see what was acomplished
17:19:57 <jwf> bt0: Agreed – but I think it's the right move!
17:20:20 <jwf> meskarune: Yeah. And for students, those metrics are helpful for extra lines on a CV or resume
17:20:31 <meskarune> yes totally
17:22:10 <jwf> So… I'm thinking this through one step at a time. I think the next things for us to focus our time and effort on is improving the contribution experience to docs so people don't get frustrated and give up if they can't figure something out.
17:23:27 <jwf> meskarune: Do you have time to file one or two new tickets? I was hoping you could file one for the "cheatsheet" idea of Fedora tools, apps, and resources. It would also be cool if you could file a new one to brainstorm "competition" categories and possible prizes to go along with them.
17:23:28 <bpabon_> (for example, I can't load pagure right now because of https errors in Chrome/Win7 )
17:23:38 <meskarune> jwf: do you guys have something in place to remove duplication?
17:23:47 <meskarune> I think there is a lot of duplication on the wiki
17:24:00 <meskarune> people don't realize that info is on there and make a new page or whatever
17:24:05 <jwf> bpabon_: Would you have time to file a new ticket for the better guidance on contacting / working across different SIGs / sub-projects before next week too?
17:24:34 <jwf> bpabon_: Try restarting Chrome? Sometimes this happens to me in Firefox too but restarting the browser usually does the trick for me
17:24:58 <jwf> meskarune: Duplication of what kind of things?
17:25:21 <jwf> bt0: If you have time in this next week, could you file a new ticket about the "Fedora jargon" cheatsheet?
17:25:32 <jwf> Then, I was thinking I would take the recurring "easyfix" tasks idea as a new ticket
17:25:52 <meskarune> jwf: well like I think there are multiple pages for diversity for example that say the exact same things about the project
17:26:08 <commops-watch> pagure.issue.comment.added -- bt0dotninja commented on ticket fedora-commops#186: "Run worldcloudbot on @fedoracommunity Twitter account" https://pagure.io/fedora-commops/issue/186#comment-546177
17:26:26 <meskarune> and I have seen pages for meetings there the same meeting had 2 different paces
17:26:29 <meskarune> for other projects
17:26:46 <JohnMH> bpabon_: That's really to be expected of proprietary software, however I would suggest checking the system clock, as if the system clock is off by a bit (I think a few days) you will definitely get TLS errors.
17:26:55 <bt0> If you have time in this next week, could you file a new ticket about the "Fedora jargon" cheatsheet? Yes action me jwf
17:26:55 <meskarune> but idk how wide spread this is, and also there are lots of old pages that could maybe be archived or organized somehow
17:27:00 <meskarune> like old things that are no longer relevant
17:27:36 <jwf> meskarune: For team-specific docs, it is probably the responsibility of the team to update the content and be on top of duplication. Letting the D&I Team know about duplicated content is the right move. But I think this is what bpabon_ was griping about last week, that doing these cross-team tickets is sometimes confusing.
17:27:58 <jwf> bt0: Sure! And I'll action me too, before things take off for me after Friday.
17:28:11 <jwf> bt0: By next meeting is okay?
17:28:11 <bpabon_> Thanks @jwf: @JohnMH: I'm using a spare machine and it's confusing me...
17:29:17 <jwf> #action jwf File a new ticket to better document and offer up recurring "easyfix" tasks for CommOps by Wed, Dec. 19th
17:29:26 <bpabon_> @jwf: yes to the two tickets; inbound request flow and cross-functional status conventions.
17:30:04 <jwf> #action bt0 File a new ticket to create a "Fedora jargon" cheatsheet, to help explain different terms and phrases often used in Fedora (but not obvious to a newcomer or first-timer)
17:30:07 <JohnMH> Oh, and I'll finally fix the dead links in the README this week (Tomorrow actually)
17:30:10 <bt0> cool
17:30:12 <jwf> Oops, let me timebox that
17:30:14 <jwf> #undo
17:30:14 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: ACTION by jwf at 17:30:04 : bt0 File a new ticket to create a "Fedora jargon" cheatsheet, to help explain different terms and phrases often used in Fedora (but not obvious to a newcomer or first-timer)
17:30:34 <jwf> #action bt0 File a new ticket to create a "Fedora jargon" cheatsheet, to help explain different terms and phrases often used in Fedora (but not obvious to a newcomer or first-timer) by Wed, Dec. 19th
17:30:53 <jwf> bpabon_: Awesome. And I think your flow chart fits better in this new ticket than it does the docs hackathon event ticket.
17:31:03 <JohnMH> #action JohnMH Fix dead links in README of the fedora-commops repo by Wed, Dec. 19th
17:31:04 <jwf> bpabon_: Is by next Wednesday an okay timeframe for you?
17:31:10 <JohnMH> jwf: Sound good?
17:31:20 <jwf> JohnMH: Oh! I didn't realize there were broken links. Yes, that would be super helpful!
17:31:29 <jwf> Thank you.
17:31:42 <JohnMH> Yep, FCAIC and FPM
17:31:51 <bpabon_> @jwf yes Wed is good.
17:31:55 <jwf> Ohhh. Yeah, those did break a while back, I forgot.
17:32:02 <jwf> bpabon_: Super. I'll write the action now:
17:32:59 <jwf> #action bpabon File a new ticket to better document procedure and best practices on cross-team communication and collaboration by Wed, Dec. 19th (and maybe add the flowchart from previous action there once it is ready!)
17:33:23 <jwf> meskarune: Did you have time to open new tickets for your other ideas too, or do you need to take a pass?
17:33:44 <bpabon_> @jwf: and by "comm0pos ticket" you mean in pagure, right?
17:33:53 * jwf definitely wants to make sure the game-ifying idea gets captured
17:34:07 <jwf> bpabon_: Yep! You got it. Right here: https://pagure.io/fedora-commops/issues
17:34:20 <bpabon_> jwf++
17:34:33 <jwf> Hah. Maybe this is something we need to add to our jargon cheat sheet. issue <=> ticket
17:34:37 <meskarune> jwf: atm I am on mobile, but I could try when I can work on my laptop
17:35:17 <jwf> meskarune: Do you think you could get them by next Wednesday? If not, we can distribute the workload too :-)
17:35:33 <meskarune> yeah, what specific tickets am I making?
17:35:36 <jwf> Since the holidays are a super slowdown period, it's not a big rush. But I figure it is helpful to get done while the idea is fresh.
17:36:03 <jwf> meskarune: I was hoping one for the "cheatsheet" idea of Fedora tools, apps, and resources and another to brainstorm "competition" categories and possible prizes to go along with them.
17:36:17 <meskarune> ok
17:36:28 <jwf> Okay, super!
17:37:04 <jwf> #action meskarune File a new ticket for a "cheatsheet" to explain different Fedora tools, apps, and resources and how they are used, by Wed, Dec. 19th
17:37:19 <bpabon_> Maybe the prizes should also include special badges?
17:37:33 <jwf> #action meskarune File a new ticket for brainstorming docs event "competition" categories and possible prizes to go with them, by Wed, Dec. 19th
17:38:01 <jwf> bpabon_: Yes. I would love to better utilize Badges for this. There are also some exciting things shaking down in that side of the project over the next few months too. :-)
17:39:06 <jwf> #idea Using Badges to correspond with some of the competition categories? (e.g. "Most docs edited in 2019 contribute-athon event", "Most new pages created in 2019 contribute-athon event", etc.)
17:39:39 <jwf> Okay! I feel like we were able to follow up on the great discussion from last week and we have a plan to move forward on these great ideas.
17:40:03 <jwf> Does anyone else have anything they want to suggest? Or anything else about the event as a whole?
17:40:11 <bpabon_> @jwf: do we track page views? Maybe a badge could be for "highest visibility" fix?
17:40:23 <jwf> bpabon_: Ooh. Good question. I'll ask in #fedora-docs
17:42:34 <jwf> #idea Using page views / metrics as an incentive for a "highest visibility" fix category?
17:43:01 <jwf> meskarune++ bpabon++ The idea on game-ifying feels so obvious to me now, that was a great thing to bring up
17:43:01 <zodbot> jwf: Karma for meskarune changed to 2 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
17:43:15 <jwf> Discussion on ticket #159, going once…
17:43:25 <jwf> Going twice…
17:43:36 <jwf> And thrice.
17:43:41 <jwf> #topic Open floor
17:43:49 <jwf> Okay! And here we are at the end.
17:43:55 <jwf> Does anyone else have anything they want to bring up?
17:44:01 <jwf> nb: Did you want to chat about Discourse now?
17:44:05 * nb wishes we still used mailing lists
17:44:18 <wa1em> @jwf,  been in and out will re-read the meetign notes here and chime in later
17:44:29 <jwf> nb: Have you had a chance to try out Discourse or play around with it much? I'm curious what feels missing to you.
17:44:34 <nb> discourse is yet another website to go to
17:44:36 <jwf> wa1em: Great! Whenever you have time.
17:44:42 <wa1em> @jwf,  discourse info pls
17:44:43 * nb is wondering what we hope to solve with discourse
17:44:52 <nb> since there's already hyperkitty web interface for mailing lists
17:44:56 * wa1em uses discord but not discourse
17:44:57 <bpabon_> I can answer that!
17:45:01 <jwf> wa1em: I'll have the minutes up there after the meeting :-)
17:45:07 <jwf> bpabon_: Sure, go for it!
17:45:17 <wa1em> I meant for joining/using  Discourse silly
17:45:24 <bpabon_> OK, here's my take on it:
17:45:28 <wa1em> I don't know much beyond the name for discourse
17:45:53 <jwf> nb: If I am reading your feedback right, it is in two parts: (1) you prefer to keep it in your inbox without going to a new website, but also (2) this change doesn't make sense or what it is trying to accomplish
17:45:56 <bpabon_> 1) Discourse offers voting, so answers can be upvoted
17:46:10 <bpabon_> based on count  AND on reputation
17:46:17 <jwf> wa1em: Oh, oops. Discourse is like forum software. Take a look here: https://discussion.fedoraproject.org
17:46:19 <bpabon_> (of the voter)
17:46:22 <jwf> wa1em: you can sign in with FAS.
17:46:47 <wa1em> so it's essentially a reddit for "sane" discussion?
17:46:49 * jwf gives bpabon_ the floor, sorry for distracting with other messages
17:46:50 <bpabon_> Discourse can be extended to behave like email if y
17:47:27 <bpabon_> I don't think we can have a private Reddit.
17:47:29 <JohnMH> bpabon_: You can vote on mailing lists too, and I think HyperKitty adds voting in the UI
17:48:04 <jwf> Let's give bpabon_ a chance to type
17:48:23 <bpabon_> (I don't know HyperKitty, and I thought that nb didn't want a new interface)
17:48:47 <JohnMH> HyperKitty is the current interface used for the mailing lists, see https://lists.fedoraproject.org/
17:49:29 <bpabon_> - Discourse integrates the content so that it in one corpus and can be searched using diffrent criteria.
17:49:43 <bpabon_> Even _post facto_
17:50:17 <wa1em> have to depart now will catch up later
17:50:41 <bpabon_> Topics can also be forked and merged, along with access controls for group discussions.
17:50:48 <JohnMH> bpabon_: As for having Discourse "behave like email", it sends HTML emails and has no option to disable that, you cannot start threads from email (Even if you set an incoming address for a particular subsection), you'll always have bad formatting with :emotes: in it.
17:51:04 <jwf> wa1em: See ya around o/
17:51:12 <bpabon_> Mailing lists are more cumbersome because the "control" plane is typically quote separate.
17:51:43 <bpabon_> That said, I think there are adjustments we should make to Discourse to help address
17:51:58 <bpabon_> @nb 's valid objections.
17:52:12 * jwf nods
17:52:33 <JohnMH> bpabon_: One of the other major issues with Discourse is that it doesn't support proper threading, such that jwf ended up closing a thread (what many would consider a form of censorship) when Discourse displayed the substread directly after the original thread, with no indication of the subthread itself.
17:52:34 <jwf> nb: Did you have a chance to play with Discourse much, or to try using it all from email?
17:53:33 <JohnMH> In this way, Discourse can really be confusing, though I was actually surprised to see that it did handle the subthread properly in emails it sent to me.
17:53:47 <JohnMH> (Discourse set the In-Reply-To header)
17:53:48 <jwf> JohnMH: The passive-aggressive comment is not helpful. We do not give feedback like that here.
17:53:50 <bpabon_> @johnMH: oh, I didn't know about the jwf situation. Maybe that scenario needs special attention.
17:54:13 <JohnMH> jwf: I've not made a passive-aggressive comment.
17:54:56 <nb> jwf, I can mess with it more
17:54:59 <jwf> JohnMH: Yes, your comment on censorship is. This misconstrues context. You were suggested to start a new thread in a more relevant place. It is like asking someone to move a conversation to a different mailing list.
17:55:00 <nb> i barely have looked at it
17:55:29 * nb is generally just not in favor of more different communication methods because then its more places to check
17:55:41 <JohnMH> jwf: I didn't mean to bring special attention to that specific case, but to bring to light the fact that centralization leads to the potential for censorship.
17:55:41 <nb> but if it can work totally through email, like i can receive the messages and can reply
17:55:43 <bpabon_> @jwf: I wasn't offended, but I agree with your assesment of the context misconstrued.
17:55:44 <nb> and can start new threads
17:55:49 <nb> then it doesn't sound bad
17:56:19 <bpabon_> @jwf: so I think that your is helpful constructive criticism.
17:56:37 <bt0> discourse is far to be perfect but looking for new form to interact it's fine and discourse give us another options/adventages not present in our traditional mailing list
17:56:38 <meskarune> JohnMH: moderating a community isn't censorship
17:56:56 <meskarune> you are in the wrong community if you think people have the right to say and do whatever they want here
17:56:59 <JohnMH> Again, my point is not the action itself, but the handling in Discourse itself.
17:57:10 <bpabon_> @johnMH: I think that @jwf is trying to encourage more rigor in our communication. Which is a good thing.
17:57:16 <meskarune> sounds like you could make a feature request for moderation tools ;)
17:57:31 <meskarune> are they still developing discourse?
17:57:34 <JohnMH> If Discourse had displayed the subthread as HyperKitty does, I doubt that situation would have occurred in the first place.
17:57:38 <jwf> nb: Okay. I am happy to help you out with this if want help. I have had good luck with configuring it to behave like a mailing list.
17:58:04 <jwf> nb: It is definitely possible to subscribe to a category and follow along over email.
17:58:32 <bpabon_> AFAIK, @meskarune  Discourse is under heavy development.
17:58:51 <bpabon_> Oh, and btw, their public Docker image works quite well.
17:58:52 <jwf> JohnMH: I set a quiet for the next 24 hours. Please be more respectful when delivering feedback. You can PM me about this if you'd like.
17:59:44 <jwf> A more productive way to take some of these specific gripes on Discourse is to open an issue with upstream
18:00:17 <bpabon_> @jwf: re feedback to very, I think that, because IRC is real-time, it is easy to type impulsively
18:00:32 <bpabon_> (I know I do it all the time).
18:00:36 <jwf> Here is upstream's suggestion on requesting new features: https://meta.discourse.org/t/how-to-request-new-features-for-discourse/32986
18:01:17 * nb does not see how JohnMH was being disrespectful
18:01:20 <bpabon_> IMHO, the Discourse project is very accomplished at taking feedback and managing tech debt.
18:01:50 <nb> yes, it sounds like he should take his comments about how discourse should handle it to wherever discourse has their bug/issue tracker
18:01:58 <nb> but to quiet him?
18:02:16 * nb looks in PM
18:02:37 <bpabon_> @nb: I was enumerating features and he interrupted with an objection and an example that was out
18:02:48 <bpabon_> of context.
18:03:09 <jwf> Okay. This conversation derailed. I am going to close the meeting minutes, and then we can discuss this.
18:03:16 <jwf> #endmeeting