commops
LOGS
17:09:52 <bt0> #startmeeting Fedora CommOps (2018-12-05)
17:09:52 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Dec  5 17:09:52 2018 UTC.
17:09:52 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
17:09:52 <zodbot> The chair is bt0. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:09:52 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:09:52 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_commops_(2018-12-05)'
17:09:56 <jwf> bt0++
17:10:05 <bt0> #meetingname commops
17:10:05 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'commops'
17:10:18 <bt0> #nick commops
17:10:36 <jwf> bt0: Want to be chair for today?
17:10:36 <bt0> #chair jwf
17:10:36 <zodbot> Current chairs: bt0 jwf
17:11:01 * jwf is situated now if you are divided attention
17:11:03 <bt0> not really, i need chair the mindshare today too
17:11:10 <jwf> Ah, okay. I can take it then!
17:11:10 <bt0> :P
17:11:14 <jwf> I forgot that meeting conflict
17:11:15 <bt0> thanks
17:11:17 <jwf> And that you were chairing :P
17:11:22 <jwf> #topic Agenda
17:11:28 <jwf> #link https://infinote.fedoraproject.org/cgit/infinote/tree/meeting-templates/fedora-commops-meeting-next
17:11:28 <jwf> #info (1) Roll call / Q&A
17:11:28 <jwf> #info (2) Announcements
17:11:28 <jwf> #info (3) Action items from last meeting
17:11:29 <jwf> #info (4) Tickets
17:11:30 <jwf> #info (5) Open floor
17:11:36 <jwf> #topic Roll call / Q&A
17:11:38 <jwf> #info Name; Timezone; Sub-projects/Interest Areas
17:11:40 <jwf> #action commops New members, please introduce yourself on the CommOps Discourse [ https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/c/project/commops ]
17:11:43 <jwf> If this is your first time at a CommOps meeting, feel free to introduce yourself to everyone and say hello! If anyone has any questions before we get started with the rest of the agenda, now is also a good time to ask.
17:11:46 <jwf> .hello jflory7
17:11:47 <zodbot> jwf: jflory7 'Justin W. Flory' <jflory7@gmail.com>
17:12:17 <jwf> #info Justin W. Flory; UTC-5; CommOps, D&I Team, Fedora Badges
17:12:20 <bt0> .hello bt0dotninja
17:12:21 <zodbot> bt0: bt0dotninja 'Alberto Rodriguez Sanchez' <hotgalan@gmail.com>
17:12:24 <tg-fedcommops> <jbjorkang> Hello! I am new here, I'll be following along as best I can!
17:12:59 <bpabon> .hello blaise
17:13:00 <zodbot> bpabon: blaise 'Blaise R Pabon' <blaise@gmail.com>
17:13:03 <jwf> Hi @jbjorkang, happy to have you here! We will cover some of the Ansible things you mentioned during the tickets part of the meeting :-)
17:13:06 * jwf waves to bpabon
17:13:13 <jwf> #chair bpabon jbjorkang
17:13:13 <zodbot> Current chairs: bpabon bt0 jbjorkang jwf
17:13:23 <bt0> #info Alberto Rodriguez S; UTC-6; CommOps, Marketing, dotnet and more
17:13:34 <jwf> Anyone else around for today's meeting?
17:13:40 <jwf> .members commops
17:13:41 <zodbot> jwf: Members of commops: algogator bcotton @bee2502 @bex bt0dotninja cprofitt decause dhanesh95 @jflory7 jonatoni meskarune nb rhea roca @skamath wesleyotugo x3mboy
17:14:27 <jwf> We're already late and bt0 has another meeting to chair, so I think let's go ;)
17:14:31 <jwf> #topic Announcements
17:14:55 <jwf> #info === "FPgM report: 2018-48" ===
17:14:56 <meskarune> oh is there a meeting
17:15:01 <jwf> #link https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/fpgm-report-2018-48/
17:15:23 <jwf> This week is my last week of classes, so I wasn't able to get to the agenda this time. I have no other announcements
17:15:28 <jwf> Anyone have something to share?
17:15:31 <VibroMax> #info Papa Charlie: GMT CommOps
17:15:35 <jwf> Hi meskarune! Here for the meeting?
17:15:50 <jwf> meskarune: You're welcome to join if you're free :-)
17:15:55 <jwf> Hi VibroMax o/
17:16:01 <VibroMax> Hi
17:16:38 <jwf> bcotton always does a great job getting the FPgM reports out the door
17:16:42 <jwf> bcotton++
17:16:42 <zodbot> jwf: Karma for bcotton changed to 8 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
17:16:44 <meskarune> yes, its in here?
17:16:54 <jwf> meskarune: Yep! :)
17:16:57 <jwf> #chair meskarune VibroMax
17:16:57 <zodbot> Current chairs: VibroMax bpabon bt0 jbjorkang jwf meskarune
17:17:06 <jwf> Announcements, going once…
17:17:16 <jwf> Going twice…
17:17:26 <jwf> And thrice.
17:17:33 <bpabon> #info https://pagure.io/fedora-docs/docs-fp-o/issue/104
17:17:50 <jwf> #topic Action items from last meeting
17:17:50 <bpabon> doesn't get love from the docs folks.
17:18:17 <bpabon> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-docs/docs-fp-o/issue/104 doesn't get love from the docs folks.
17:18:32 <jwf> bpabon: Hmm. I wonder if the approaching holiday has made it difficult for people to get up to speed. Let's follow up this meeting
17:18:39 <jwf> #link https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-commops/2018-11-28/commops.2018-11-28-17.03.html
17:18:43 <jwf> #info How This Works: We look at past #action items from the last meeting for quick follow-up. If a task is completed, we move on to the next one. If it isn't, we get an update and re-action if needed. If no status, we'll try to get a quick update and move forward.
17:18:51 <jwf> bt0 Complete a first draft of new CommOps docs page on suggested Pagure tags (due: Monday, Dec. 3rd)
17:19:00 <bpabon> ok
17:19:02 <jwf> bt0: I think I saw you did this? Or added a new comment to the ticket?
17:19:27 <bt0> yes, but i don't know where put in in our docs tree
17:20:06 <jwf> bt0: Okay. Want to talk about it in the meeting?
17:20:17 <bt0> sure
17:20:20 <jwf> Or want to push follow-up for next week, if you still want to spend more time on it?
17:20:27 <jwf> Cool, I'll make sure we cover it :)
17:21:00 <jwf> #info === [IN PROGRESS] "bt0 Complete a first draft of new CommOps docs page on suggested Pagure tags (due: Monday, Dec. 3rd)" ===
17:21:01 <jwf> #info Will discuss further during tickets part of meeting!
17:21:24 <jwf> #info === [COMPLETE] "bt0 Write a CommBlog draft to link and explain two or three CommOps "easyfix" tasks for Winter 2018 (due: Monday, Dec. 3rd)" ===
17:21:24 <jwf> #link https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/?p=6716&preview=1&_ppp=1017420676
17:21:25 <jwf> #info Draft is complete and ready for review. bt0++
17:21:53 <bt0> :)
17:22:05 <jwf> #info === [INCOMPLETE] "jwf Draft set of user testing scenarios for contributing to docs, create new tickets for each test scenario. Due: Friday, Nov. 30th." ===
17:22:05 <jwf> #actionjwf Draft set of user testing scenarios for contributing to docs, create new tickets for each test scenario. Due: before 2019.
17:22:13 <jwf> Oops, typo
17:22:17 <jwf> #action jwf Draft set of user testing scenarios for contributing to docs, create new tickets for each test scenario. Due: before 2019.
17:22:29 <jwf> #info === [INCOMPLETE] "jwf Share test scenarios with Design Team to get additional feedback" ===
17:22:29 <jwf> #action jwf Share test scenarios with Design Team to get additional feedback
17:23:17 <meskarune> what are the test senarios?
17:23:22 <jwf> #info === [COMPLETE] "bpabon Investigate ways to visualize diagrams from text further and then open new Pagure / docs-fp-o tickets for rendering support" ===
17:23:22 <jwf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-docs/docs-fp-o/issue/104
17:23:22 <jwf> #info bpabon opened ticket, but needs additional follow-up from Docs Team members. Will look closer later in meeting too. bpabon++ for leading on this.
17:23:24 <meskarune> like, a workflow for making docs?
17:23:55 <jwf> meskarune: Good question. Essentially, yes. We want to have a few people run through the process of contributing to Fedora Docs, figure out what is hard and could be simplified, and then we hopefully work with Docs Team to make those improvements.
17:24:21 <jwf> That's the rough idea, anyways. These test cases would create some tasks to do before we execute a Docs contribute-athon kind of event later in 2019.
17:24:28 <meskarune> I see. Would it help to have some newbies who try and write some documentation?
17:24:39 <meskarune> They would easily be able to identify what is hard to figure out
17:25:07 <jwf> meskarune: Absolutely, and preferably anyone who is not too biased by working with the new system for almost a year :D
17:26:04 <jwf> meskarune: If you are interested in being a tester, we could definitely use your help if that's something interesting. It might not be until January when we have something ready. Or if you have ideas / suggestions too for the actual test cases, always welcome to hear them :-) We can discuss more in the ticket coming up.
17:26:06 <jwf> #info === [INCOMPLETE] "jwf Start new Discourse thread about the Dilemma of the Conflicting Meetings" ===
17:26:06 <jwf> #action jwf Start new Discourse thread about the Dilemma of the Conflicting Meetings
17:26:21 <meskarune> jwf: ok :D
17:26:24 <jwf> ^^ I'm really going to try and do this one ASAP
17:26:29 <jwf> I slipped on everything this week :P
17:26:30 <bpabon> meskarune: some of my findings are at link: https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/fedora-docs-community-contribution-hack-fest-with-user-communities/503/23?u=blaise
17:26:33 <jwf> One of those weeks for me
17:26:42 <jwf> #topic Tickets
17:26:42 <jwf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-commops/issues?status=Open&priority=20
17:27:07 * jwf is doing a quick triage of tickets based on what we wanted to cover
17:27:11 <meskarune> oh about the text to image diagram thing, I wanted to ask if that also makes the images accessible to the blind?
17:27:21 <meskarune> like with alt text and stuff
17:28:35 <jwf> I see tickets for the Teleirc bridges, the docs discussion, and the wordcloudbot. Let's lead with the docs discussion
17:28:42 <meskarune> ok
17:28:43 <jwf> #topic Ticket #159: "Run a "Write the Docs" event targeting Fedora support groups"
17:28:43 <jwf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-commops/issue/159
17:29:00 <jwf> #info meskarune interested in helping with running through the test cases once ready
17:29:17 <jwf> #help bpabon looking for additional feedback from Fedora Docs team members on Discourse thread
17:29:18 <commops-bot> meetbot.meeting.item.help -- jflory7 called for help in the "Fedora CommOps (2018-12-05)" meeting in #fedora-commops: "bpabon looking for additional feedback from Fedora Docs team members on Discourse thread"
17:30:11 <jwf> ^ and/or the ticket
17:30:12 <jwf> #link https://pagure.io/fedora-docs/docs-fp-o/issue/104
17:30:24 <bpabon> jwf++
17:30:24 <zodbot> bpabon: Karma for jflory7 changed to 6 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
17:30:36 <jwf> meskarune: Good question on accessibility. I don't know the answer there
17:30:48 <nb> hi
17:31:52 <jwf> bpabon: For your situation, it might help to ping people 1x1. I can try to do that, but I suspect we might be slow to get responses around this time of year
17:31:56 <jwf> Hi nb! o/
17:32:16 <jwf> bpabon: But we shouldn't let it fall to the side for that reason though
17:32:57 <meskarune> this question is slightly offtopic, but does fedora have a website that just indexes all of the fedora websites and servcies?
17:33:05 <jwf> For other parts of this ticket, we're still blocked by the actual test cases yet to be written
17:33:12 <meskarune> like the wiki, forums, pagure, rating apps, etc
17:33:28 <bpabon> Yes, it can become one of those things nobody does because anyone can do it.
17:33:28 <jwf> meskarune: The closest thing I know is https://apps.fedoraproject.org, but that is more specifically infrastructure. It might not include things like Fedora Discourse, for example
17:33:37 <meskarune> you guys are always linking random fedora tools and a lot of them I haven't seen before
17:34:21 <meskarune> I think it would help contributors a lot if there was an index of *everything* from IRC and telegram to all the web communication stuff
17:34:29 <bpabon> meskarune: they just do that to make us feel inferior
17:34:36 <meskarune> :P
17:34:49 <bpabon> (did I say that out loud)
17:35:23 <bt0> Fedora it's a little world, we always have new things to discover :)
17:35:58 <jwf> meskarune: Hmm, this is a good point. Things move fast in Fedora, but sometimes moving too fast can have consequences. It's helpful to know when someone feels there is missing context in a meeting discussion
17:36:49 <jwf> meskarune: Maybe there are two ways we could do this better? Maybe we could (1) maintain our own list of Fedora tools in the CommOps docs website, or (2) use the yet-to-be-created CommOps Toolbox for this
17:37:18 <jwf> Hah, I wonder how useful a "Fedora vocabulary sheet" would be, of all the buzzwords and unique vocabulary inside of the Fedora Project
17:37:29 <jwf> That could be fun to assemble too
17:37:31 <meskarune> yeah, that makes sense. It would really help new people.
17:37:39 <meskarune> and keep people who have been away and come back updated
17:37:48 * jwf nods
17:37:53 <meskarune> jwf: yes, and that is also another task that newbies can help with
17:38:07 <jwf> Definitely
17:38:10 <meskarune> I think keeping a list of tasks like that and recruiting people is important
17:38:19 <meskarune> I feel like y'all were working on something like that
17:38:29 <jwf> Nice, so this went in a different direction than I expected but I like it :-)
17:38:38 <meskarune> some kind of thing where people post easy to do tasks so new people can find them and contribute.
17:38:53 <jwf> #idea Should CommOps create a list of common tools with descriptions of what they are in our own documentation?
17:39:10 <tg-fedcommops> <jbjorkang> Very nice idea. Big fan of that
17:39:19 <jwf> #idea What if we created a "Fedora vocabulary sheet" with the buzzwords / jargon / unique vocabulary from across the Fedora community
17:39:40 <jwf> @jbjorkang: Me too :D
17:40:03 <jwf> meskarune: Do you think these #ideas would help resolve some of this feeling?
17:40:37 <meskarune> yeah, I think it will help new people get integrated faster
17:40:44 <meskarune> and contributing faster with less intimidation
17:40:48 <jwf> Cool. I'll work on filing new tickets for both of these.
17:41:00 <jwf> #action jwf File new tickets to discuss / plan out these ideas further
17:41:38 <jwf> bpabon: I hope we can do better to make it not feel that way ;)
17:42:11 <jwf> Anyone else have anything to suggest about Fedora Docs / CommOps docs?
17:42:46 <bpabon> I think it would be good to have a convention for filing cross team requests.
17:42:46 <jwf> Docs stuff, going once…
17:42:53 <jwf> bpabon: Oh, hmm
17:43:08 <jwf> bpabon: Could you expand on that?
17:44:06 <bpabon> Well, Let's say commops needs something from the docs team. There's no way to get a list of similar reuqests.
17:44:06 <meskarune> bpabon: I think every sub group in fedora has their own conventions
17:44:10 <meskarune> for internal stuff
17:44:21 <bpabon> FOR INTERNAL STUFF yes
17:44:40 <meskarune> there was some efforts being made to document how to join various teams, and then I think they each maintain their own docs
17:44:53 <bpabon> but if every group has to learn the internal conventions for every other group
17:45:07 <bpabon> it becomes n! combinations.
17:45:35 <bpabon> If we said eg.
17:46:03 <bpabon> All inbound requests:
17:46:41 <bpabon> wil be tagged "xTEAM", "xTYPE" and xPriority
17:47:20 <bpabon> else contact ".oncall" for escalation... etc
17:47:41 <bpabon> Then we don't sit around wondering what will happen to the request.
17:48:09 <jwf> I wonder what we could do to abstract the internal conventions out
17:48:30 <bpabon> no, actually, it's the other way around.
17:48:47 <jwf> I think it would be a huge undertaking to try and unify the internal conventions for each team, and each team would still need additional things specific for how they operate
17:48:55 <jwf> Oh? Curious what you mean
17:49:00 <bpabon> It's better to map EXTERNAL expectations to whatever the current requirement is.
17:49:12 <bpabon> That is why we have such a mess with Antora right now.
17:49:48 <bpabon> Because someone saw one feature, thought it was cool, and didn't consider how the rest of world was using docs.
17:49:54 <jwf> bpabon: What do you mean by mapping external expectations?
17:50:17 <bpabon> OK, for example,
17:50:52 <bpabon> Commops notices that a lot of people would benefit from being able to have diagrams in their docs.
17:51:07 <bpabon> (infra, commops, mindshare, releng, etc)
17:51:34 <bpabon> so we open a ticket in the docs team.
17:51:41 <bpabon> 1) we don't know how to tag it
17:52:10 <bpabon> 2) we don't know if anyone at docs has seen it.
17:52:25 <bpabon> 3. We don't know if it is already something they are working on.
17:52:42 <bpabon> 4 We don't know when any of the previous event will happen.
17:52:49 <jwf> Okay, I follow this
17:52:55 <jwf> Makes sense
17:52:57 <bpabon> 5) We don't know who to contact.
17:53:32 <bpabon> So , if we need to make a similar request of Infra, we get to figrure out those 5 questions all over again.
17:53:58 <meskarune> I think in the past it was discussed to have a list of contacts from all the sub groups in fedora
17:54:11 <meskarune> or at least how to contact each gropu
17:54:28 <bpabon> The most deadly anti-pattern to eliminate is the "works for me" pattern.
17:54:53 <bpabon> aka, "my work here is done, everything else is someone else's problem"
17:55:02 <meskarune> I could swear there is already a ticket about this somewhere
17:55:12 <bpabon> </rant>
17:55:21 <jwf> meskarune: Maybe you are thinking of the on-boarding tickets for the different sub-projects, circa 2015/2016
17:55:25 <jwf> There were a lot of them
17:55:29 <meskarune> oh yeah, maybe
17:55:45 <meskarune> and then I think on the com-ops wiki page there is a list of contacts for sub projects
17:55:49 <jwf> bpabon: What is a first-step you see towards making this easier?
17:56:42 <jwf> meskarune: On one hand, I think a point of contact list of names is helpful and would, but I think it depends on the list being up-to-date. I feel like creating a list with peoples' names (versus some other way to get attention) risks falling out of date?
17:56:43 <bpabon> I think the first step might be for COMMOPS to publish a simple convention.
17:57:14 <meskarune> jwf: yes, I agree with that, so having some other way to contact might be better
17:57:18 <bpabon> "If you open a ticket for commops, this is what will happen:
17:57:20 <jwf> For example, I saw this in the Ambassadors with the mentors. Some of the people on the list haven't been seen for a long time, but their name appears there anyways. Since they were voted in, only an editor can change the list
17:57:38 <jwf> Maybe not a good specific example, since the Ambassador program is undergoing significant changes, but…
17:57:52 <meskarune> is there an email for like the leader of each subproject?
17:57:59 <bpabon> "...and if it doesn't happen in xx hours, contact yy@abc.org"
17:58:03 <meskarune> like comops-admin@fedora.com
17:58:05 <meskarune> or something
17:58:28 <jwf> meskarune: Yeah. That's what I'm wondering too, what would be a better way…
17:58:52 <jwf> bpabon: I see. I like that idea. So at least, someone coming in to file an issue knows how things work and can set realistic expectations
17:58:53 <meskarune> but links to ticket pages and links to the page that lists who is in charge would be helpful too I guess
17:58:57 <jwf> bpabon: Did I read that right?
17:58:59 <meskarune> or what the irc channel names are
17:59:22 <bpabon> yes.
17:59:24 * jwf nods
17:59:41 <meskarune> maybe we are getting way off the meeting agenda now though :P
17:59:42 * jwf lost track of the time, just noticed we are at the end of the hour
17:59:53 <jwf> I have to get to a class soon, I didn't realize we were over, oops
17:59:55 <jwf> Hmmm
17:59:57 <meskarune> so what actionables are we doign right now
18:00:06 <bpabon> I'll take the action item of sketiching out a flowchart.
18:00:07 <jwf> This feedback is really valuable but I'm not sure how to capture it
18:00:24 <jwf> bpabon: Sure, I think that would be really helpful. I think we're on to something
18:00:35 <jwf> bpabon: When do you want a due date for it?
18:00:40 <bpabon> "bpabon will oepn a comm ops issue about opening comm ops issues"
18:00:53 <jwf> Next meeting or do you want longer?
18:01:16 <bpabon> Since I may get a regular job at any moment, I will do this ASAP.
18:01:32 <jwf> bpabon: Okay, cool. I'll action a follow-up for next meeting. Thanks for working on this!
18:01:35 <bpabon> :-}
18:01:42 <bpabon> next meeting
18:01:56 <jwf> #action bpabon Create a flowchart based on meeting discussion (around conventions / expectations for filing a CommOps ticket), review at next meeting
18:02:01 <bpabon> .wink
18:02:09 <jwf> Oh, I need to check the calendar for me next week, I might have an exam conflicting with this time
18:02:16 <jwf> But I think we can still move forward with it
18:02:35 <meskarune> maybe actions are "create an updated list of sub project contact info"
18:02:40 <jwf> It might be in 2019, but we have a better record these days of following up on things
18:02:47 <meskarune> "create a list of tasks for newbies to do in com-ops"
18:02:53 <jwf> #help Create an updated list of sub-project contact info
18:02:53 <commops-bot> meetbot.meeting.item.help -- jflory7 called for help in the "Fedora CommOps (2018-12-05)" meeting in #fedora-commops: "Create an updated list of sub-project contact info"
18:03:01 <jwf> #idea Create list of tasks for newbies to do in CommOps
18:03:09 <jwf> ^^ this one really needs some love, and we definitely have things
18:03:15 <meskarune> maybe on pagure tickets could be tagged with "one off" or "15 mins" or "newbies"
18:03:18 <jwf> My struggle there is remembering to file new tickets each time it's completed
18:03:27 <bt0> woah
18:03:38 <jwf> I wonder if I could create pre-defined tickets to easily / quickly post
18:03:53 <jwf> Things like the Top Badgers CommBlog articles is one example
18:03:58 <jwf> Or little fedmsg data experiments
18:04:03 <bt0> that are new tags ideas for easyfix tickets meskarune++
18:04:04 <zodbot> bt0: Karma for meskarune changed to 1 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
18:04:06 <meskarune> like ticket templates?
18:04:08 <jwf> I'm going to need some time to unpack this meeting more fully :D
18:04:40 <jwf> meskarune: I guess yeah, a template. For a very specific task, so it's easy-peasy to create the ticket
18:04:58 <jwf> #idea New ticket templates for recurring, easy fix tasks (e.g. certain CommBlog articles, fedmsg mini-experiments, etc.)
18:05:08 <meskarune> ticket templates would make ticket creation faster and help people to make tickets with complete information
18:05:56 <jwf> I also love the approach I've seen in GCI this year in Fedora too. A lot of the tasks are learning tasks, where it might not be directly contributing to a big task, but they are small learning things to get people introduced. Like run a Fedora Docker container, create an Ansible playbook that does this, try testing X thing out and write a blog post about it
18:06:22 <jwf> I really need to log off of IRC now though for real
18:06:33 <meskarune> ]o
18:06:34 <jwf> We didn't keep to the agenda at all this meeting, and I loved it :D
18:06:35 <meskarune> \o
18:06:55 <jwf> Going to end the meeting for now, but feel free to keep going. I'll work on the usual things after my next exam tomorrow
18:07:10 <jwf> #action jwf Post Discourse summary / do ticket updates from meeting this week
18:07:16 <jwf> #endmeeting