18:00:54 <jsmith> #startmeeting Fedora Board Meeting
18:00:55 <zodbot> Meeting started Fri Jul 16 18:00:54 2010 UTC.  The chair is jsmith. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:55 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:01:24 <jsmith> #meetingname Fedora Board
18:01:24 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_board'
18:01:30 <jsmith> #chair stickster
18:01:30 <zodbot> Current chairs: jsmith stickster
18:01:34 <rdieter> here
18:01:37 <jsmith> Welcome, all!
18:01:39 * spot is here
18:01:41 * jds2001 here
18:01:42 * stickster 
18:01:54 * jsmith is here from FUDCon Santiago
18:01:59 * Orv lurks
18:02:06 * mizmo (Máirín Duffy) here
18:02:26 <smooge_afk> here
18:02:28 <smooge_afk> sorry
18:02:55 <jsmith> As announced, this is going to be an open meeting... We'll open with questions and answers, and see how things go for the first 40 minutes or so
18:03:17 <jsmith> From there, we'll either continue with Q&A for the remaining time, or move on to other board business
18:03:21 <jsmith> Sound fair?
18:03:24 * stickster notes mdomsch and walters are both unavailable today since they're traveling or off grid
18:04:07 <jsmith> #topic Questions and Answers (at large)
18:04:28 <jds2001> dont be bashful! :)
18:04:52 <jsmith> While waiting for questions, let me say that I'm thankful to everyone who helps make Fedora what it is
18:05:37 <jsmith> There's plenty of work ahead, but I'm very pleased with what I've seen of Fedora over the past few yaers
18:05:39 <jds2001> +1
18:05:41 <jsmith> s/yaers/years/
18:06:29 <stickster> jsmith: Do you want us to lob a couple questions, since no one has chimed in yet?
18:06:34 <smooge> hmmm most of the people I know who are into asking questions are not here today
18:06:40 <brunowolff> Does the board have initial impressions of the anthropolgy report?
18:06:58 <jds2001> I think it was a worthwhile experience
18:07:03 * meGenius wants to know, what kind of ACCEPTABLE questions we can ask...
18:07:06 <jds2001> not everyone may have participated in it
18:07:15 <jds2001> meGenius: whatever you'd like :)
18:07:30 <jsmith> meGenius: Fail early, fail often :-)
18:07:38 <jds2001> the whole point of this is to be an open forum :)
18:07:42 <dgilmore> jsmith: what do you see as the biggest challange in your starting weeks/months?
18:08:00 <jsmith> brunowolff: I think it was worthwhile... I have a bit of a background in market research, and will be interested to dive into it deeper when I have a chance
18:08:10 <mizmo> I think it points out that while we're awesome at collaborating, we need to improve our on-boarding processes! ~80% of our contributors have been here 2 years or longer - we need new blood and we need that knowledge in oldtimer folks' heads to be shared with new folks
18:08:28 <jsmith> brunowolff: But my initial impressions are that there's a lot of data there we can use to improve the Fedora experience (both from the distro and community side)
18:08:39 <jsmith> dgilmore: Well -- where do I begin?
18:08:40 <EvilBob> I'm in to asking questions but quite busy today
18:08:42 <stickster> brunowolff: In answer to your question, my impression was that it shows that people get involved in Fedora for many different reasons.
18:08:44 <jds2001> mizmo: +1. I think that's a problem in any organization though
18:09:10 <jsmith> dgilmore: We need to continue to push Fedora development, and to make the Fedora community more inclusive
18:09:11 <jds2001> mizmo: there's plenty of tribal knowledge, be that in Fedora or anywhere elsd.
18:09:28 * ctyler realizes the time, sorry I'm late
18:09:43 <jsmith> dgilmore: I'm reminded this week at FUDCon at the barriers to entry that are there, not because we're trying to be exclusive, but because of language and cultural differences for example
18:10:04 <mizmo> i think though, it's hard to feel comfortable enough to ask until you get your feet wet, it's that initial experience of getting your feet wet we need to make easier. once someone has accomplished their first project and have gotten positive feedback on it, i think they feel more comfortable getting involved in other projects
18:10:16 <mizmo> easier to dig the tribal knowledge out :)
18:10:22 <jsmith> dgilmore: My biggest challenge in the beginning is to find ways to get buy-in from all the parties involved so that we can push with a concerted effort
18:10:47 <jsmith> dgilmore: I tend to be a bit scatterbrained, but I don't want a scatterbrained approach to Fedora improvement
18:10:59 <jsmith> dgilmore: I'd rather make it a collaborative effort
18:11:06 <Devilment> There was a discussion last weekend in #fedora-uk about why isn't there a Fedora LTS. RHEL/CentOS was mentioned as filling this role and how there used to be Fedora Legacy, which ended up folding due to lack of volunteers, IIRC. There is nothing to prevent a third party from providing LTS to a Fedora release, but would we ever see anything official again?
18:11:13 <dgilmore> jsmith: :) excellente
18:11:39 <smooge> Devilment, I can speak to some of that
18:11:43 <jsmith> mizmo: I tend to agree... but we need to focus on the user experience as well, before we can help them through the contribute, participate, lead cycle
18:12:26 <smooge> Devilment, LTS is a very very 'expensive' operation and volunteers are not usually wanting to do that.
18:12:27 <jsmith> Devilment: I don't have any immediate plans for a Fedora LTS... the rapid development cycle and community-driven nature of Fedora doesn't really lend itself to long-term updates
18:12:34 <jds2001> Devilment: we have infrastructure challenges to face with that.
18:12:54 <jsmith> Devilment: If I had a full-time staff and ten times the infrastructure, I'd be happy to explore it from the community standpoint
18:12:57 <jds2001> in addition to everything that has been said :)
18:13:06 <rdieter> lts is a noble goal, and seems to have a not-insignificant amount of popularity among users, but apparently not much support among anyone able/willing to do the work to make it happen (a *lot* of work).
18:13:13 <mizmo> Devilment, do you think there's more community interest in maintaining something like that now compared to the old long term support program we had that died due to lack of interest?
18:13:22 <smooge> Devilment, it is quite open for other people to do long term support on things which is what we were looking for in Legacy. However many of the people looking to do it found that they didn't have the resources to expend
18:13:38 <VisBits> <3 fedora.
18:13:52 <jsmith> VisBits: Thanks!  I do too!
18:13:57 <sijis> what do you consider LTS? don't we already go back 2 releases?
18:13:59 <VisBits> lol
18:14:03 <smooge> Thus an LTS is something that would probably fall onto the sponsoring company (eg Red Hat) to put the resources into it.. to make it successful
18:14:03 * stickster notes that there was a group of community members who voiced some interest again last year, but I haven't seen the results of that process.
18:14:25 * jds2001 thinks that died.
18:14:27 <jsmith> sijis: LTS typically means multiple years of supported updates -- three, five, and seven are common numbers
18:14:40 <smooge> sijis, Usually the people I know who are looking for LTS is looking or 3-5 years
18:14:43 <jds2001> I was doing SIG status stuff for FES, and it looked dead to me.
18:14:47 <VisBits> Who uses fedora that needs support for old versions though?  Isn't that rhels job?
18:14:47 <smooge> s/or/for
18:15:04 <meGenius> are there any plans to change the cycle of fedora releasing??
18:15:05 <mizmo> who wants to use a 5-year-old desktop though?
18:15:09 <mizmo> i could see 2 years.... maybe
18:15:14 <VisBits> rhel6 will be pretty current
18:15:23 <Devilment> I'm happy with the status quo of ~13 months
18:15:26 <jds2001> meGenius: again, rapid innovation happens in Fedora
18:15:27 <rdieter> meGenius: no.
18:15:29 <VisBits> Devilment, same.
18:15:54 <jds2001> meGenius: that doesn't lend itself to longer release cycles
18:15:56 <jsmith> meGenius: I don't think we need any major changes to the develoment cycle.  We may adjust from time to time to make it seven months (or possibly eight) should the need arise, but I don't see us moving to a much slower release cycle
18:16:06 <stickster> The stress always gets more visible as a previous RHEL or CentOS release ages. I would imagine that when RHEL 6 is released, with many of the desktop features that people have seen mature in new Fedora releases, the pressure for LTS will drop precipitously.
18:16:09 <smooge> Most commercial places I have worked for do not want desktops to change for 3 years. Thats the general life period that it takes to get training together, support structures in place and initial investment in those things paid off
18:16:12 <Devilment> I thought I'd raise the question so I can feed back to the person who was arguing for Fedora LTS
18:16:15 <jsmith> meGenius: It's very hard to continue to push innovation with a slower release cycle
18:16:25 <jsmith> Devilment: Thank you!  We're glad you asked!
18:16:34 <VisBits> i like this jsmith guy :)
18:16:59 <VisBits> BH-Alex, LTS yes or no?
18:17:12 <BH-Alex> No, we have RHEL and CentOS for that
18:17:40 <VisBits> stickster> The stress always gets more visible as a previous RHEL or CentOS release ages. I would imagine that when RHEL 6 is released, with many of the desktop features that people have seen mature in new Fedora releases, the pressure for LTS will drop precipitously.
18:17:42 <VisBits> well said
18:17:51 <meGenius> jsmith: most of the BIG innovations are happening from year to year, that's it 2 versions
18:18:14 <sijis> a couple of months ago, there was an effort to meet with different SIG groups. honestly, i haven't kept up with it has there been other ones besides web and design? if not, is this expected to continue going forward?
18:18:29 <jsmith> meGenius: In times past, that was the case... if you've paid attention to F12, F13, and the feature list for F14, I think we're changing that
18:18:43 <EvilBob> I have seen no reason to justify the slowing of Fedora releases personally
18:18:45 <jsmith> meGenius: I'm going to continue to push for *continual* improvement
18:18:57 <stickster> sijis: That's a good question for jsmith -- but just to give a bit of background, the Board has held numerous meetings with different SIGs over the past few months. It's up to the current Board whether they want to continue that practice
18:19:02 <BH-Alex> I have a small question: wouldn't LTS defeat the point of thr new unfrozen rawhide and increase load on Fedora devs, and reduce similarity to upstream with backports?
18:19:17 <jds2001> BH-Alex: yes, very much so.
18:19:30 <smooge> Point of Order please. Could people when asking questions puit a " QUESTION" at the front... its a little hard for me to parse out who is asking questions to the board and who is not
18:19:36 <stickster> sijis: But I would encourage it, because it helps when the Board is aware of challenges of different Fedora teams, and participates directly in resolving them.
18:19:45 <stickster> +1 smooge
18:19:50 <smooge> oops that wasn't a point of order
18:19:51 <EvilBob> By nature Fedora is a stress filled adventure, constant upgrades, and many like it that way I know I do. It's fun to see what we can break next.
18:20:02 <caillon> sijis, I enjoyed them, fwiw.  I'd be in favor of continuing to do so, actually.
18:20:02 <jsmith> sijis: I want to continue to work with the SIGs, but as a board we need to decide the best way to interact with them.  My general rule of thumb is "give them the tools they need, give them some mentorship, and then get out of the way"
18:20:03 <meGenius> have you even thought about canceling the version system, i mean, pushing updates directly
18:20:27 <jsmith> sijis: Obviously each SIG is different, and will require a customized response
18:20:42 <jsmith> meGenius: It's been discussed, but I'm personally not a fan of "rolling releases"
18:20:42 <jds2001> meGenius: there needs to be some point where we produce installable media
18:20:43 <VisBits> lets all use ubuntu
18:20:48 <rdieter> meGenius: that's largely what rawhide *is*
18:20:55 <jsmith> rdieter: Exactly.
18:21:03 <EvilBob> If you want a rolling release there is arch linux available
18:21:03 <sijis> jsmith: sure. i thought it was beneficial to hear what other groups are doing and what challenges/assistance they may need
18:21:11 <mizmo> VisBits, um "awesome" suggestion
18:21:12 <jds2001> meGenius: and there are some changes that are major enough to not do to a live system
18:21:18 <jsmith> sijis: True.  I'll make a note of that
18:21:19 <VisBits> mizmo, lol i was kidding, i dont like ubuntu at all
18:21:21 <jds2001> LVM1->LVM2 is a good example.
18:21:21 <EvilBob> Fedora does not have to be for everyone.
18:21:24 <mizmo> VisBits, phew
18:21:33 <mizmo> :)
18:21:45 <meGenius> EvilBob: nah!
18:21:46 <VisBits> :)
18:22:07 <jsmith> EvilBob: I agree... we can't be *everything* for *everybody*, or what we end up with is just average (or worse the lowest common denominator).   That being said, I think we can be *most* everything for *most* everybody.
18:22:11 <EvilBob> Just because someone else is "doing X and Y" does not mean Fedora should
18:22:38 <jsmith> We *can* and *should* be a leading Linux distribution, which gives users and devs the tools they want and need
18:22:42 <meGenius> jsmith: the spins can!
18:22:49 <BH-Alex> As a developer (primarily C++, distributed computing), I have to use RHEL platforms in a supercomputing environment. While that's great, I love the freshness of Fedora, which is why I run it on all of my machines. Having an LTS support appears to me, as a user, to contradict the Fedora mission.
18:22:51 <jsmith> (if not *the* distro, obviously)
18:22:55 <VisBits> jsmith, exactly, i love fedora for being modern
18:23:00 <VisBits> thats why i use it
18:23:05 <EvilBob> We do things just a little different, and IMO better. Not perfect but better.
18:23:15 <stickster> jsmith: And I would go further to say, leading in that space means we have the opportunity to solve problems that are common to "most everybody."
18:23:17 <jsmith> meGenius: Very good point -- Spins are a creative outlet for those who want a slightly different experience
18:23:27 <VisBits> Linux t61 #1 SMP
18:23:38 <VisBits> <3
18:23:38 <jsmith> EvilBob: We try not to let "perfect" get in the way of "better"
18:23:43 <brunowolff> Note that the Spins SIG was (and to some extent still is) very close to totally failing.
18:24:07 <jds2001> brunowolff: what can we do to support that?
18:24:19 * jds2001 would like to be more involved there if not for a lack of time :/
18:24:24 <VisBits> can we get native ZFS support in fedora :)?
18:24:30 <jsmith> brunowolff: The board is happy to accept suggestions on concrete ways the board can help improve that
18:24:30 <EvilBob> jds2001: +1
18:24:31 <jds2001> VisBits: no
18:24:33 <VisBits> :(
18:24:37 <brunowolff> We need to get spin owners more involved. How to do that is an open question.
18:24:42 <dgilmore> VisBits: when licensing is sorted im sure it will come
18:24:46 <jds2001> VisBits: licensing concerns :(
18:24:53 <jsmith> VisBits: We work from upstream kernels... get it pushed upstream, and we'll have it
18:24:54 <VisBits> whats the offending company?
18:25:01 <jds2001> dgilmore: i wouldnt hold my breath with current events.
18:25:06 <jds2001> VisBits: sun/oracle
18:25:06 <BH-Alex> What about spins? I've tried to use revisor to make my own, but it's been broken since Fedora 10, despite submitting bug reports. What does the Spins SIG need, I might have somet ime.
18:25:09 <Devilment> doesn't btrfs overlap with ZFS's functionality?
18:25:17 <VisBits> jds2001, surprise surprise..
18:25:18 <ctyler> actually, patents as much as licenses in the ZFS case
18:25:23 <brunowolff> I have a plan to better document roles to set expectations for spin owners and to hopefully make it easier to volunteer for the special roles of
18:25:30 <brunowolff> lead and wrangler.
18:25:34 <EvilBob> jds2001: I am hoping once I get settled in to my new place I will be able to be involved more in a lot of areas.
18:25:37 <jsmith> brunowolff: Sounds great
18:26:14 <ctyler> http://www.sun.com/lawsuit/zfs/
18:26:16 <jds2001> EvilBob: yeah, $DAYJOB takes a ton of time for me, and I can't really hack on Fedora there unfortunately :(
18:26:17 <brunowolff> It will be OK for F14 unless something happens to me, but I would prefer to be working more in other areas.
18:26:24 * smooge hates to say this but is lost on what questions are currently open before the board
18:26:29 <VisBits> BH-Alex, good point
18:26:34 <EvilBob> smooge: Yup
18:26:43 <mizmo> there's a ZFS question that just wrapped up
18:26:44 * stickster would think the Board should devote some time to thinking about the health and well-being of the Spins SIG. When I hear brunowolff say he wants spin owners to be "more involved" it gives me some concern.
18:26:51 <mizmo> and righ tnow we seem to be talking about helping Spins
18:27:06 <jsmith> #info Please put the word QUESTION in front of any new questions to help us know when new questions have been asked
18:27:19 <VisBits> QUESTION why is the sky blue.
18:27:20 <EvilBob> smooge: this is less than fully functional, we need the middle of the road secretary method from days of old IMO
18:27:20 <brunowolff> I mostly wanted to point out people shouldn't be proposing grand things for spins, when the whole Spins SIG might disappear.
18:27:27 <jds2001> stickster: +1, I've been watching from the sidelines and been concerned.
18:27:29 <jsmith> VisBits: Chemistry
18:28:01 <BH-Alex> QUESTION what is wrong with the Spins SIG currently?
18:28:33 <jds2001> BH-Alex: lack of engagement, for want of a better term.
18:28:47 <VisBits> jsmith, its actually physics
18:28:58 <EvilBob> BH-Alex: From what I hear "Not enough Indians". lots of grand ideas and little in the way of getting it done.
18:29:31 <BH-Alex> So would the Spins SIG benefit from a trimmed down  mission, short-term?
18:29:49 <meGenius> jds2001: i guess the spins are released on the basis of the self requirements not the public ones
18:29:58 <stickster> jds2001: brunowolff: Spin owners provide an "official" Fedora release that's been approved by the Board. I think it's important that the results are successfully passing through a process that ensures the results work well.
18:30:11 <smooge> Well I would like to say that A) We need to talk with them before we can say that and B) I would need to know who the members are
18:30:22 <jds2001> meGenius: not sure i parsed that.
18:30:36 <dgilmore> QUESTION jsmith: How can i as a regular fedora contributor feel like i can take ownership of some task or segement of fedora.  How are we going to make sure that contributors feel enabled?
18:30:57 <EvilBob> stickster: How are we promoting the spins that are new and innovative along with the other spins that have been approved?
18:30:58 <brunowolff> I talked to releng today and there will be a testing requirement for the GA release.
18:31:05 <jsmith> dgilmore: First of all, they need to know what Fedora is and what it represents
18:31:19 <meGenius> jds2001: someone may release a spin for - let's say - gaming. so he will add a number of packages for the game he plays not what people plays
18:31:23 <EvilBob> One way as we all know to increase contributor base is to increase user base
18:31:31 <jsmith> dgilmore: Second, they need to have a support network -- people they can ask questions to, preferably in their locality and language
18:31:31 <stickster> EvilBob: In part through set-aside areas in our talking points and other marketing materials.
18:31:45 <jds2001> meGenius: good point.  How do we fix that?
18:31:55 <jsmith> dgilmore: Third, they need to feel their involvement is welcome and valued
18:32:15 <meGenius> jds2001: the spin-makers should listen to people, there should be wishlist
18:32:19 <BH-Alex> QUESTION: Aren't Spins just built from kickstart files? Why does it appear that a lot of resources are required to successfully produce a spin? From running cobbler and livecd-creator I've found kickstart to be wonderful and easy.
18:32:20 <jsmith> dgilmore: Fourth, we need to make it clearer both how they can contribute/participate/lead, and what the steps are to do so
18:32:24 * EvilBob is AFK again
18:32:59 <dgilmore> jsmith: great. now to make sure that we take the steps that way
18:33:05 * mmcgrath notes just yesterday it took 3 of us over an hour or two to track down a spin with a bad checksum.
18:33:23 <jds2001> BH-Alex: but putting it all together is hard.
18:33:27 <brunowolff> QA is busy enough with the main spins (Desktop and KDE) that they can't test the other spins. The Spins SIG needs to do that.
18:33:28 <Devilment> QUESTION: Not everyone is a coder, so may feel they cannot contribute back to the Fedora Project. How can we get non-coders more involved?
18:33:31 <jsmith> dgilmore: Well, obviously we need to take a step back and try to see things from the perspective of a new user/contributor
18:33:31 <jds2001> BH-Alex: spinning the bits is trivial
18:33:55 <jds2001> Devilment: I don't know C to save my life :)
18:34:02 <jsmith> dgilmore: Many of us have been using Fedora for so long that we don't remember (or want to remember) what it was like to get started
18:34:12 <BH-Alex> jds2001: so if I understand it correctly, it's a manpower issue combined with a what-the-public-wants issue?
18:34:16 <jsmith> dgilmore: We've forgotten what it's like to not know what to do or how to do it
18:34:17 <rdieter> Devilment: there's plenty on http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join not involving coding
18:34:18 <dgilmore> Devilment: there is so much of fedora not at all involved with code  we need to make sure that those sections are visable to all
18:34:21 <meGenius> Devilment: i guess reporting bugs, suggesting feature .. etc..
18:34:26 <stickster> Devilment: Although our 'join' page is in need of some work, we do clearly indicate there's plenty of ways to be involved that are non-code related
18:34:30 <brunowolff> The ks files need review. For example Dan Walsh wants to make a kiosk spin but currently is doing it in what we suspect is a bad way.
18:34:32 <mizmo> Devilment, join the design team :) We post bounties specifically for brand-new contributors
18:34:37 <jsmith> Design, docs, marketing
18:34:37 <mizmo> Devilment, no coding required
18:34:44 <mizmo> http://mairin.wordpress.com/category/fedora-design-bounty/
18:34:50 <brunowolff> But we don't have someone that can work with him to fix things up.
18:34:51 <caillon> brunowolff, arguably, they should be doing that anyway.  different spins look to provide different experiences.  something which works as expected on one spin might be considered a bug in another spin.
18:34:52 <jsmith> Contributor doesn't always mean coder
18:34:53 <stickster> Devilment: Bug reports, documentation, translation, design, ...
18:34:54 <ctyler> there's getting started as a user (straightforward) and getting started as a contributor (less straightforward)
18:34:58 <dgilmore> jsmith: indeed. i get slapped in the face by that at times to remind me
18:35:21 <jsmith> One thing I really want to push is some improvements to the website
18:35:40 <stickster> jsmith: In fact, we happen to be approaching the third phase of a website redesign
18:35:41 <smooge> Devilment, well there are a lot of places for non-coders (I am one of those). Design, QA, Ambassadors, proof-reading the Wiki.. there are lots of areas. However most of them are technical based versus social
18:35:45 <jsmith> (More details to come... but in general, we need to do a better job of telling the Fedora story and how it meshes with the open source way)
18:35:47 <jds2001> jsmith: that's obviously on the docket :)
18:35:52 <meGenius> jsmith: in fact, i want to see some imrpvments on the forums
18:36:11 <jds2001> meGenius: unfortunately, the forums are not run by fedora
18:36:17 <jds2001> but they have a trademark license
18:36:23 <stickster> Phase one (F12) was the spins.fp.o site; phase two (F13) was the get-fedora* pages; phase three (F14) is the main www.fp.o page
18:36:42 <meGenius> jds2001: so, you can create your owns, right??
18:36:46 <Devilment> could this stuff be mentioned on the anacoder installer screen? something like, "You don't have to be a programmer to contribute back to Fedora. See <url> for details."
18:37:01 <jds2001> meGenius: you can, there are trademark guidelines to follow.
18:37:03 <Devilment> s/anacoder/anadconda
18:37:07 <BH-Alex> QUESTION what would be the end-result of Spins SIG were disbanded? From looking at http://spins.fedoraproject.org/ downloads are low
18:37:08 <Devilment> argh
18:37:19 <stickster> meGenius: Yes, with some limitations. This is a question best asked on the advisory-board list: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/advisory-board
18:37:33 <stickster> meGenius: Also check out http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Local_community_domains
18:38:10 <meGenius> in fact, the forums with the current situation are not that helpful
18:38:11 <mizmo> BH-Alex, downloads are low because the counter is reset every release
18:38:23 <ctyler> BH-Alex: I don't think downloads show the full picture; some spins are duplicated heavily by those involved with them
18:38:24 <mizmo> BH-Alex, those numbers don't reflect the F12 downloads which were quite large before we reset the counter
18:38:38 <smooge> BH-Alex, probably some peeved off people who have worked very hard on it.
18:38:38 <rdieter> meGenius: how so ?
18:38:59 <sijis> the spins stats are just torrent downloads too, not direct download ones
18:39:25 <meGenius> rdieter: a lot of times, duplicated threads are opened, for example
18:39:36 <jds2001> btw, some stats are at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics
18:39:40 <stickster> meGenius: That sounds very similar to just about all forums I've seen.
18:39:57 <smooge> meGenius, Forums take quite a bit of herding for that to not have that problem.
18:40:07 <rdieter> meGenius: that happens everywhere, irc, mailing lists, forums.
18:40:12 <dgilmore> meGenius: hard to control
18:40:12 <meGenius> stickster: exactly! & that's why i guessed applying some changes to it
18:40:23 <stickster> smooge: +1. meGenius: Have you considered talking to the forum admins and offering some help there directly?
18:40:30 <smooge> meGenius, I have found it can become a full time job for 2-3 people per 'channel' on it
18:41:06 <BH-Alex> It seems to me like Spins itself is problematic because of the difficulty to assemble the 'experience' -- wouldn't it be beneficial to have the Base Fedora install then have "profiles" (a list of packages provided by the spin-author) that can be made available?
18:41:32 * jsmith notes that we're at 40 minutse past the hour
18:41:49 <meGenius> smooge: i want to see a helpful problems solving directory
18:41:55 <jsmith> Are there many more questions, or shall we move on to other board business?
18:42:05 <ctyler> BH-Alex: part of the point of spins is that you can run them live, and can install them directly
18:42:16 <BH-Alex> ctyler: is that true of all spins?
18:42:17 <meGenius> a user can refers to it, before asking any questions in the forums or the irc channels
18:42:39 * jsmith can't type when his brain is in "Spanish" mode
18:42:44 <jds2001> BH-Alex: yeah, we havent done installable spins yet
18:42:50 <stickster> jsmith: Judging by the way the channel has moved today (robust conversation), it may be difficult to get through a Board agenda here.
18:42:52 <brunowolff> For the Spins SIG spins, they are all live.
18:42:56 <jds2001> i.e. just anaconda, no liveinst
18:43:32 <jsmith> stickster: I'm thinking the same
18:43:58 <ctyler> BH-Alex: I believe so. I think we need to re-examine the spin technology in the light of the "sudden overlay failure" issue (when run from USB, affecting SoaS particularly) as well as fedora-embedded/arm/mips/mini needs.
18:44:05 <jsmith> #agreed Let's continue the Q&A for the remaining time, and cover other board business at next board meeting
18:44:12 <BH-Alex> jds2001: sorry, I thought they were installable only, my mistake (I don't use Spins); Then couldn't it be [relatively] easy to make additional images to drop in alongside the base fedora image to make it live, making it easy to compose spins out of composite components? That would be useful with LiveUSB
18:44:46 <jds2001> BH-Alex: are yyou talking spin-kickstarts?
18:45:07 <ctyler> BH-Alex: I think there's confusion here, all the spins are live.
18:45:10 <dgilmore> this sounds like something more technical and less board related
18:45:27 <jsmith> I've asked the board members to come prepared with some questions for me as well.
18:45:32 <BH-Alex> jds2001: no, I am proposing extending the current system of mounting a single fedora-image as root to include multiple images (sort of like overlay) to composite spins, making it easier to make a Spin, thereby allowing more customization
18:45:43 <jsmith> Board members, feel free to hit me with your questions :-)
18:46:04 <smooge> dgilmore, I agree. We aren't going to micromanage here.
18:46:04 <jds2001> jsmith: what are you going to do to give us all ponies?
18:46:07 <stickster> BH-Alex: ctyler: jds2001: The idea is worth discussing. Why don't we take the idea to the spins@ list for more discussions.
18:46:30 * stickster just totally wrote a redundantly redundant sentence there, sorry.
18:46:41 <brunowolff> Making custom spins is easy. I think that's a bit away from Spins SIG though.
18:46:51 <mizmo> jsmith, i have a question that's very... different than the current ones and perhaps stupid
18:47:00 <jsmith> jds2001: Great question.... I see Fedora (and operating systems in general) like ponies... You don't just buy a pony and forget about it.  You have to feed it, clean up after it, and take care of it
18:47:20 <mizmo> jsmith, is there real value in the number of t-shirts we produce? could we be doing something to provide more value for the $?
18:47:21 <dgilmore> jds2001: everyone but cards fans
18:47:29 <jsmith> jds2001: I hope that when my tenure is done, we can look back at all the ponies we've helped raise :-p
18:47:37 <jds2001> :)
18:47:56 <mizmo> jsmith, i'm kind of an eco hippie and i feel really bad about the number of shirts, but maybe it's because i have so many. maybe most people dont
18:48:14 * mizmo owns up to the bizarroness of the question
18:48:24 <jsmith> mizmo: I'm open to suggestions.  I think the t-shirts fill two important purposes -- they give something tangible for participants to take home, and it serves as marketing
18:48:25 <rdieter> mizmo: or swag in general, but I figure t-shirts are the biggest $$ item at the moment ?
18:48:31 <dgilmore> mizmo: perhaps we can do a plant a tree for me/give me a t-shirt option for events
18:48:35 <jds2001> jsmith: seriously, given your background, are you going to encourage increased usage of F-Talk by contributors?
18:48:39 <mizmo> dgilmore, i really like that idea
18:48:39 <jsmith> mizmo: That being said, there are probably other things we can consider
18:49:04 <jds2001> t-shirts are something like $6/each iirc
18:49:05 <jsmith> mizmo: When we do create t-shirts, it may make sense not to tie them to one particular meeting or date
18:49:09 <mizmo> i kind of like the idea of virtual swag too
18:49:33 <stickster> mizmo: Virtual swag interestingly ties into spot's idea for contributor karma
18:49:34 <mizmo> spot has suggested this before, but something like levels or badges you earn through your work
18:49:35 <jsmith> mizmo: So instead of branding them with "FUDCon Zimbabwe 2020", we can simply brand them "Fedora"
18:49:39 <mizmo> stickster, exactly lol
18:49:45 <jsmith> mizmo: That decreases waste and allows for better reuse
18:49:46 <smooge> I look at it as something different. If we sold the shirts we could make more money to spend on FUDcon
18:49:49 <mizmo> jsmith, yeh i think that's a good idea too
18:50:01 <Devilment> Fedora, the MMORPG ;)
18:50:11 <jsmith> jds2001: Yes, I encourage Fedora Talk in cases where it makes sense.. Voice communication is one important tool
18:50:11 <mizmo> smooge, yeh... maybe shirt sales could fund contributor plane trips -
18:50:14 <stickster> smooge: Interesting point. Shirt sales to pay for FUDPub food?
18:50:20 <ctyler> mizmo: otoh, I think shirts have value in identifying with the community and spreading our marketing message. I think they carry a lot of value for their cost.
18:50:23 <mizmo> smooge, all the time in the logo queue i have folks asking if they can sell shirts and other materials with our logo, why cant we
18:50:32 <jsmith> jds2001: There are obviously places where voice leads to less transparency, which we want to be careful about
18:50:43 <stickster> mizmo: Mainly because we have no place to *put the money*.
18:50:47 <mizmo> ctyler, but theres some of us who go every year - i must have at least 15 fedora or fudcon shirts
18:50:48 <jds2001> jsmith: exactly
18:50:50 <smooge> mizmo, stickster Red Hat for the first 5 years was paid for by swag sales. We were a company that sold you a T-shirt and gave you a Cdrom.
18:50:53 * stickster points to archives where this has been discussed repeatedly :-)
18:51:18 <stickster> Let me take a second and frame the issue here
18:51:19 <mizmo> stickster, i know, maybe accepting $ is getting off track, but i think in some part tshirts are kind of wasteful
18:51:34 <smooge> stickster, I will look at them. sorry I didn't meant o bring up old dead business
18:51:36 * stickster aborts framing the issue
18:51:38 <jsmith> spot, rdieter: Do you have a question for me?
18:51:52 <mizmo> and if they're not organic shirts....
18:51:58 <stickster> mizmo: It's an issue worth considering!
18:52:20 <smooge> mizmo, you have never seen my kid who had been depressed for me being  away for a week go crazy with his Fedora shirt. He wears it to school as "Thats what my Dad does"
18:52:22 * stickster thinks we're not tied to t-shirts or any other kind of swag.
18:52:24 <spot> jsmith: well, i did, but lots of people beat me to mine. :)
18:52:24 <mizmo> i think whenever we produce something we should think about how it's going to die if that makes sense
18:52:32 <jsmith> spot: Fair enough :-)
18:52:42 * spot is not an original thinker today
18:52:54 <jsmith> mizmo: I agree... let's not focus so much on the short-term that we don't loose the long-term perspective
18:53:12 <stickster> er, s/loose//    [sic]
18:53:15 * dgilmore wants all organic swap within 5 years
18:53:21 <jsmith> Doh!  Told you I couldn't type
18:53:22 <rdieter> jsmith:  for some background, what first brought you to use/contribute-to fedora, and prior to becoming fpl, where was most of your interest in fedora?
18:53:23 <dgilmore> /sswap/swag/
18:53:27 <dgilmore> i fail
18:53:29 <stickster> dgilmore: When we can have all organic laptops, we'll really be cooking.
18:53:35 <mizmo> dgilmore, it totally fits our values i think
18:53:43 * jds2001 buys dgilmore an organic hard drive to put his swap on :D
18:53:51 <jsmith> rdieter: Good questions... I started using Linux around the RH 4.2 / 5.0 time frame.
18:54:12 <jsmith> rdieter: And I was lucky enough to have an employer that encouraged me to learn it well, and gave me plenty of time to do so
18:54:33 <dgilmore> jds2001: as long as it has a soy based ink cubs logo on it
18:54:40 <jsmith> rdieter: When Fedora was born, I continued on as a user, but wasn't much of a contributor
18:54:57 <jds2001> dgilmore: nah, it'd have a cardinals logo
18:55:14 <jsmith> rdieter: I'd post bugs from time to time and try out the betas and follow the -test list, but wasn't really a contributor
18:55:57 <jsmith> rdieter: Over time, however, I started to get involved in the docs project.  I'd done some work with DocBook and publishing, and wanted to help contribute
18:56:19 <jsmith> rdieter: stickster then tricked me into coming to my first FUDCon in Raleigh
18:56:40 <jsmith> rdieter: That's really what energized me to be a more active participant
18:56:41 <stickster> I'm sometimes crafty that way.
18:57:02 <jsmith> rdieter: From there, dgilmore and jcollie encouraged me to help with Fedora Talk, and so I got into the infrastructure a bit
18:57:07 <rdieter> more like trickster
18:57:11 <jsmith> The rest, as they say, is history
18:57:14 <stickster> rdieter:  ;-)
18:57:14 <jsmith> rdieter: Good one...
18:57:18 <mizmo> bwahaha
18:58:00 <jsmith> Based on my own experience, I hope we all take the time to help others have that same sort of "ah ha!" moment
18:58:06 <meGenius> excuse me, but, do the board members have a salary for being board members??
18:58:11 <stickster> meGenius: No.
18:58:24 <stickster> meGenius: The FPL is a paid position at Red Hat, whose duties include chairing the Board.
18:58:30 <meGenius> stickster: i see!
18:59:02 <stickster> Some Board members, elected or appointed, are paid employees of Red Hat, but are not paid to be on the Board in particular. They do it to better serve the Fedora community and to help make a difference through active leadership.
18:59:03 <jsmith> #info Just about out of time... any last-minute questions?
18:59:34 <mizmo> meGenius, i work on the Board for the pleasure of serving you, not for buckazoids :)
18:59:51 <jds2001> and there are several members that are not employed by red hat, both elected and appointed.
19:00:01 <meGenius> mizmo: thank you :)
19:00:06 <mizmo> meGenius, youre most welcome :)
19:00:21 <spot> wait, then why am i getting paid in those anonymous envelopes?
19:00:23 <BH-Alex> QUESTION can we get a 2-sentence summary of what happened?
19:00:25 <stickster> jds2001: Thanks, I just erased my next lines because you said it faster. :-)
19:00:46 <jsmith> BH-Alex: "of what happened"?  What happened with respect to what?
19:00:53 <smooge> spot, because you are the person we have to bribe to keep our jobs
19:00:55 <mizmo> spot, ssssh that's the pony prank funds
19:01:01 <BH-Alex> With respect to the result of this meeting
19:01:12 <jds2001> i think it went really well.
19:01:18 <mizmo> BH-Alex, I'm gonna do a blog post summary but it'll be longer than two sentences hehe
19:01:21 <jsmith> BH-Alex: Yes... I'd be happy to do that.  The entire log will be posted as well
19:01:23 <BH-Alex> okay thanks
19:01:24 <mizmo> BH-Alex, it'll be on planet.fedoraproject.org later
19:01:26 <jsmith> mizmo: Thanks!
19:01:29 <mizmo> jsmith, my pleasure
19:01:50 <stickster> BH-Alex: I think this meeting was an interesting experiment. Mainly it was intended to let the community get more directly participatory in a Board meeting, and to give Jared a chance to say howdy to people.
19:01:51 * jds2001 should do a blog summary too
19:02:03 <jsmith> The shorter version is this: We experimented with a completely open IRC board meeting, and had the Q&A first.
19:02:29 <jsmith> It was also a chance to let people get to know me a bit better, as well as other members of the board
19:02:29 <jds2001> how do we determine if this experiment was a success or failure?
19:02:31 <meGenius> do you take into consideration what other ditros do??
19:02:39 <BH-Alex> This highly resembled a City Hall meeting in my local town. Which is interesting. I guess it's working.
19:02:41 <mizmo> i have to say the logs are going to be really hard to follow
19:02:45 <jsmith> meGenius: We certainly keep it in mind, but we chart our own course.
19:02:50 <mizmo> up to 4 discussoins interweaved at any given time
19:02:53 <jds2001> meGenius: one of the four foundations is First
19:02:58 <jds2001> meGenius: we lead, not follow.
19:03:14 <ctyler> mizmo: need AI thread-rewriting sw :-)
19:03:18 <stickster> mizmo: I agree. I think the Board will need to do something a little more structured for these meetings to stay sane and develop actionable work.
19:03:27 <jsmith> OK... I'm going to go ahead and end the meeting
19:03:29 <mizmo> ctyler, lol yes. and it has to be smarter than my brain cuz right now it's smokin'
19:03:37 <mizmo> stickster, i want a queuebot!
19:03:37 <jds2001> hehe
19:03:46 * mizmo steals pony prank funds back to build a queuebot with
19:03:51 <jsmith> #action Board to discuss open format in next board meeting, and decide on plan of action for next IRC meeting
19:03:56 <Devilment> hasn't there been Fedora town hall meetings in the past?
19:04:06 <stickster> Devilment: Not in this format, with no moderation or queue.
19:04:08 <meGenius> mizmo: i guess so too!
19:04:13 <jsmith> Devilment: Yes, they happen quite often... just in a bit different format
19:04:32 <jsmith> #info Last call
19:04:41 <jsmith> Going once...
19:04:44 <jsmith> Going twice...
19:04:47 <jsmith> ... Gone!
19:04:50 <jsmith> #endmeeting