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16:01:20 <stickster> #startmeeting Fedora Project Board -- Design team forum
16:01:20 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu May 20 16:01:20 2010 UTC.  The chair is stickster. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:01:20 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:01:24 <stickster> #meetingname Fedora Board
16:01:24 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_board'
16:01:28 <stickster> #topic Roll call
16:01:31 * stickster 
16:01:31 * caillon 
16:01:34 * mdomsch 
16:02:22 * mmcgrath 
16:02:48 * poelcat 
16:03:01 <mdomsch> reminder: non-voiced people can raise questions in #fedora-board-questions, and you'll be given voice here
16:03:06 <stickster> I see jwb and dgilmore signed in too
16:03:16 * mizmo here
16:03:49 * ctyler here
16:03:53 * mmcgrath thinks dgilmore is on the road to the FAD
16:04:13 <mdomsch> mmcgrath, right.  dgilmore sent his regrets last night
16:04:16 <stickster> #info Board members present stickster caillon mdomsch mmcgrath poelcat ctyler walters spot
16:04:37 <stickster> #info Regrets dgilmore (en route to FAD NA)
16:04:39 <jwb> yeah, here
16:04:44 <stickster> #info Board members present stickster caillon mdomsch mmcgrath poelcat ctyler walters spot jwb
16:04:54 <stickster> #topic Design team -- Mairin Duffy
16:04:58 <stickster> Hi mizmo!
16:05:03 <mizmo> hiii
16:05:40 <stickster> We set up these forums to give team representatives a chance to talk about what their team's been working on, both for the release and outside of it; and to talk about what's ahead and how the Board can help
16:06:16 <stickster> Why don't you start by talking briefly about the Design team's mission and what you've been working on for the release.
16:06:46 <mizmo> Sure, so the design team's main mission is to create the artwork that goes into Fedora, under open licenses, using the tools available in Fedora itself
16:07:17 <mizmo> we want to both create awesome artwork for Fedora and build a library of excellent content to show off free & open source software's capabilities
16:07:28 <mizmo> in an open, transparent manner, as a community collaboration
16:07:55 <stickster> mizmo: And that's part of the overarching goal of maintaining a consistent look & feel for Fedora, correct?
16:07:55 <walters> hm, don't you guys also do a lot of collaboration on websites?  or are you including that in artwork?
16:07:59 <mizmo> So for F13 we had a bunch of assets we put together - the wallpaper, the anaconda/firstboot splashes, the website banners for release day
16:08:10 <mizmo> release party posters
16:08:23 <mizmo> one page release notes PDF
16:08:30 <mizmo> stickster, absolutely
16:09:18 <mizmo> a lot of the assets we put together we have follow a common theme based off of or inspired by the release codename
16:09:34 <mizmo> so conceptually there's coherence across the designs for any given release
16:09:36 <stickster> walters: Right, the Design team collaborates often with our other teams -- the web redesigns for spins.fp.o and the get-fedora page for example
16:10:40 <stickster> mizmo: Thanks for the summary of the release assets you guys produce.
16:10:54 <stickster> In previous releases, I know you did a lot of that work -- how did this release stack up in that respect?
16:11:25 <mizmo> so for this release the bulk of the work i did was for the firstboot and anaconda splashes
16:11:37 <mizmo> we had a lot of people working on the wallpaper this time, it was not a one person show
16:11:56 * stickster admits this is a leading question because he saw a lot of those conversations when they were happening :-)
16:12:02 <mizmo> in the past it's had a bit of a competitive nature, but because we're aligning our concepts to the release codename now, folks have started working together on the same concept
16:12:29 <mizmo> so here you can see a bit of the back and forth and all the various folks who pitched in on the concept: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F13_Artwork#Concepts.2C_WIP_Designs
16:13:16 <walters> interesting
16:13:41 <mizmo> the main banner for release day was designed by Fabian A. Scherschel who is a new contributor this release
16:13:52 <mizmo> you can see it here http://stg.fedoraproject.org/
16:14:01 <mizmo> the smaller release banners were done by Alexander Smirnov
16:14:24 <mizmo> who also did a lot of the media artwork along with another new contributor, Martha Benitez
16:14:52 <mizmo> that work is here http://inkscaper.fedorapeople.org/Fedora13/media-artwork/  and here http://fedorapeople.org/groups/designteam/Resources/Fedora%20Release%20Themes/F13/Media%20Artwork/
16:14:56 * stickster notes that the final design combines work from a lot of people -- mizmo, Luya, Charlie Brej, Mola, and Samuele -- but executed at the end by Kyle Baker
16:15:02 <stickster> That's pretty impressive
16:15:34 <mizmo> Tatica Leandro and myself collaborated together on the release poster
16:15:54 <mizmo> and Tatica also did the banner and sourced a lot of the photos for the f13 one page release notes
16:16:35 <mizmo> oh and Nelson Marques created a lightscribe media template we're going to post this week
16:16:41 <stickster> mizmo: Do you think it would be worthwhile to have a Design history page that shows the names of people involved in the release art so we can compare it at the next release?
16:16:50 <mizmo> yeh definitely
16:17:30 <mizmo> i have to say, we're doing better release by release
16:17:41 <stickster> So the release art is very much ready to go at this point.
16:17:45 <mizmo> we're producing the assets earlier and earlier, i think this was the first release we had artwork in for the alpha
16:17:56 <mizmo> the one thing we are struggling with is the tooling for all of this
16:18:06 <mizmo> yep it is stickster
16:18:55 <ctyler> tooling in what sense?
16:19:05 <mizmo> we have awesome floss tools to create the art in, so those tools aren't the problem. it's the workflow around finding out what needs to be done, how to do it, and submitting it - getting critique - making a decision on which to use
16:19:21 <mizmo> we really want to try to recruit highly talented artists to join our community and work with us
16:19:48 <mizmo> but they don't know how to use wikis..... they get discouraged by the FAS account creation process.... they have no idea what an SSH key is, that sort of thing
16:20:07 <mizmo> Kyle was telling me just today, if I hadn't been around in person to walk him through all of that stuff, he would have given up in 10 minutes
16:20:22 <mmcgrath> mizmo: do you have any ideas how to make this simpler?  - https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/user/new?_csrf_token=c289a6d926887c6f690c57db6cf661ae11a8c60b
16:20:26 <mizmo> he's extremely talented, he understands our mission and believes in it....
16:20:53 <mizmo> well the main things we need from artists before they contribute
16:21:05 <mizmo> - we need to get an agreement from them that they'll give us the work under a license we can use
16:21:28 <mizmo> that's the main thing we need from them, that's why the design team asks that folks create a FAS account first.
16:21:35 <mizmo> the things they need from us before they can contribute:
16:22:08 <mizmo> - a place to upload their work - the easier the better (this is where the ssh key issue comes in.... and not knowing how to use ssh to copy stuff over... or not knowing how to use the wiki)
16:22:17 <stickster> A 'Join Fedora' app that could process the necessary steps, from FAS to SSH to setting up shortcuts in the Places menu, without exposing the user to a ton of different web apps, might help
16:22:21 <mizmo> - a way to communicate with the other designers about their work - mailing lists are hard. they really are
16:23:34 <mizmo> stickster, exactly the other point is that you have to switch modes between so many different apps right now, FAS, the wiki, mailman, irc....
16:23:55 <mdomsch> a web app that generates SSH keys is a really bad idea :-)
16:24:15 <stickster> mdomsch: Right, I was thinking more of a local helper installed in the menu
16:24:19 <mizmo> downloading an sftp client and configuring it for fedorapeople (not easy on a mac), or figuring out how to do so in nautilus when you mnay have never done such a thing ever before
16:24:22 <mdomsch> but you're right, we could automate much of the process
16:24:27 <mizmo> mdomsch, the web app can trigger it to happen someplace else
16:24:35 <mdomsch> mizmo, locally?
16:24:46 * mdomsch isn't a javascript programmer - that'd be interesting
16:25:08 <mizmo> mdomsch, if i click on a link to an rpm file on a webpage today, package kit pops up
16:25:13 <mdomsch> but I really like the idea of "so you want to contribute to Fedora art?  Click here"
16:25:25 <mizmo> im sure theres a solution that'd work
16:25:38 <walters> hmm, the last thing i saw was <mizmo> yeh definitely
16:25:52 <walters> anyone have a log?  i asked some questions but they must not have gotten through
16:26:00 <stickster> walters: I'll shoot you the URL in PM
16:26:04 <walters> ty
16:26:21 <walters> what i asked (not sure if this got through), i'll just paste:
16:26:22 <walters> <walters> sounds like the process has been pretty successful now
16:26:22 <walters> <walters> is this all a recentish-change compared to f11/f12?
16:26:22 <walters> <walters> is there anything you would say could be improved, and if so do you have any thoughts on what the board might be able to do there?
16:27:17 <mizmo> i believe f13 was the first release we had artwork in the alpha
16:27:22 <mizmo> f12 was the first release we had artwork in the beta
16:27:25 <stickster> mmcgrath: It seems like a proper app for this stuff could also alleviate the pain we get from random people applying for groups they don't really need
16:27:27 <mizmo> we get a little better every time with that
16:27:41 <mizmo> it's been slow gradual improvement walters
16:27:44 <mmcgrath> stickster: written by who?  I think all our developers are stuck on admin.fp.o/community/ at the moment
16:28:05 <mizmo> kyle and i have an idea for an app that could use fedora community as the framework
16:29:00 <mizmo> kyle really has his finger on the pulse of the general design community, which today is very adobe centric
16:29:06 <stickster> mizmo: Is that app for making it easy to join Fedora and setup for collaboration, or for something else?
16:29:10 <mmcgrath> or kopers
16:29:13 * stickster listens
16:29:27 <mizmo> there's some incredible pockets of design within the open source community though that are just as good as the best of the mainstream design community
16:29:35 <mizmo> but the two communities - don't really interact or intersect
16:29:47 <mmcgrath> I agree that lowering barriers is important, but I don't think there's a problem here that education won't fix.  if they're going to use an ssh key I'd like to think we can educate them as to what it is.
16:30:10 <mizmo> i was showing him stuff like project durian / the blender project movies, open clip art, libre graphics meeting, all these kind of things, and he was like, wow, how come i never heard of this? where would someone go to find out about this stuff?
16:30:21 <mizmo> mmcgrath, teaching someone what an ssh key is not too bad
16:30:22 <ctyler> mmcgrath: true, but there is no ssh-keygen-gui
16:30:44 <walters> i've been thinking about adding one to my ssh app, but this is tooootally offtopic =)
16:30:46 <mmcgrath> ctyler: that's true, Linux lacks a lot of gui stuff.
16:30:47 <mizmo> teaching someone how to use an ssh key, use sftp, use ssh, use mediawiki, use IRC, use mailing lists, use inkscape when they like adobe.... pile it on. all the while asking them to create assets for you
16:30:50 <mizmo> that's a pretty tall order
16:30:55 <stickster> mmcgrath: ctyler: I was thinking that a proper app would give us that opportunity without making the person read half a dozen long wiki pages.
16:31:03 <mmcgrath> ctyler: but since we're a linux group making linux products I'd think people could learn it.
16:31:20 <poelcat> mizmo: another distro out there is doing a lot of focus on usability and design... where do you see its place in Fedora?
16:31:36 <mizmo> anyway i think if we make it easy to contribute to fedora as a designer, and at the same time highlight the awesome FLOSS assets we are creating (wallpapers, banners, etc) and using (gimp brushes, palettes, textures, fonts, etc)
16:31:43 <caillon> mizmo, how does it work in other design groups?  should we try and meet their expectations partially?
16:31:52 <mizmo> we can be a general clearinghouse for awesome open source assets and get a lot of recognition from the general design community
16:32:29 <caillon> i mean, rather than make them learn our stuff, is there anything we can do to ease the transition by doing things the way they expect (without compromising on freedoms)
16:32:35 <mizmo> poelcat, where do i see another distro's place in fedora?
16:32:42 <poelcat> mizmo: sorry
16:32:57 * poelcat thinks of how to rephrase
16:33:11 <mizmo> caillon, we have three big problems. we're making them use tools they don't know, we're making them learn a crazy technical-person oriented workflow, and we're making them understand licensing
16:33:18 <mizmo> caillon, you have to pick two
16:33:24 <mizmo> caillon, i think if we make the workflow dead simple
16:33:44 <mizmo> caillon, they can work with us on the tools (many of them are cross platform so they dont have to give up os x yet) and the licensing (we cannot compromise on that)
16:34:13 <mizmo> caillon, there are tons, i mean TONS of collaborative design forums out there where digital artist work togehter to produce assets
16:34:21 <mizmo> caillon, none of those places involve irc, mailing lists, ssh keys, etc etc etc
16:34:39 <caillon> what do they do?  /me really has no idea
16:34:46 <mizmo> caillon, thats the most foreign and challenging thing to the folks we want to bring in. inkscape is close enough its not too wird for them
16:35:20 <mizmo> caillon, a lot of times they just design things like wallpapers or music albums or wahtnot just for fun
16:35:48 <caillon> sure, but what do they use to collaborate?
16:36:03 <mizmo> ahh
16:36:11 <mizmo> well deviantart.com is one tool some folks use
16:36:15 <poelcat> mizmo: a while back the name from the "artwork" team to "design"... how do you think we can carry out the "design" asepct more and how can the board help?
16:36:35 <mizmo> caillon, the most common thing these groups do is they have a shared blog... in order to post or submit stuff to the shared blog you kind of have to get an elite status
16:36:38 <poelcat> s/name/name changed
16:37:09 <mizmo> poelcat, i think the best thing we can do right now to get more design in fedora is to get more designers
16:37:20 <mizmo> poelcat, to get more designers we need to make it easier for designers to focus on design rather than ssh keys
16:37:34 <caillon> mizmo, ah.  and how does one go about getting such access if they are new to the project?
16:37:36 <mizmo> poelcat, we're not ready to recruit yet
16:37:49 <ctyler> mizmo:making the workflow simple in Fedora is one thing. Making it simple from OS X is another. Creating fedora-design-setup and putting it on the menu is viable, and it could create bookmarks in Places for nautilus ssh sharing, bookmarks in Fedora for web collaboration tools, etc.
16:38:05 <stickster> #info There are LOTS of collaborative design forums in existence which are ripe for open source work, need to pick two of three problems (1) unfamiliar tools, (2) unfamiliar workflow, (3) unfamiliar licensing -- and solve at least two of them to break open those pools of people
16:38:06 <mizmo> caillon, it depends on the community.... some have online forums (phpbb style usually) and if one of the current moderators takes a liking to you, you can work you way in that way
16:38:12 <poelcat> mizmo: how would fedora look and how would we benefit from more designers?
16:38:23 <mizmo> caillon, like they might have an open posting forum where people can post anything. if you post really awesome stuff a moderator might take notice of you and promote you
16:38:33 <poelcat> mizmo: once we are ready to recruit them :)
16:38:42 <mizmo> caillon, a lot of these sites operate like filters... there's a lot of bad design out there, so they want to only show the creme
16:38:54 <caillon> hehe
16:38:59 <mizmo> ctyler, if it's a web-based workflow though it should not be platform dependent
16:39:15 <mizmo> ctyler, eg the mainstream design communities out there have windows and os x users
16:39:28 <caillon> mizmo, i wonder if we should try and replicate some of that workflow, it seems like it may be worthwhile.
16:40:01 <mizmo> poelcat, right now, and i love all our developers they are all awesome super smart people. but implementation issues and technology are what interest them, what they think about the most
16:40:41 <mizmo> poelcat, if we have more designers in the community, we are going to have more folks looking at fedora not from the 'zomg this message bus is awesome' or 'zomg we have python version blah.foo.bam'
16:41:05 <mizmo> poelcat, but instead looking at it from a design perspective - 'wow this is really difficult to use. how can we make it easier? how would it look?'
16:41:26 * stickster notes you can look at some IRC Board meetings and see how quickly we can sometimes derail on those technical topics :-)
16:41:43 <mizmo> poelcat, i know personally many of our developers care very much about usability and user experience. but it's not always the forefront to them. they care about optimization and clean backends and all that stuff too
16:42:04 <mizmo> poelcat, we need people for whom the user experience is #1, for their influence
16:42:26 <mizmo> caillon, i think we can, i think it would make an awesome fedora community app, and could follow the same model -
16:42:56 <mizmo> caillon, eg kyle and i have this idea for having a queue of tasks people can claim.... it can totally be driven by the design team fedorahosted trac queue, no need to reinvent the wheel. just hook up to its api and have a nice ui on top
16:43:56 <mizmo> poelcat, how would fedora look - you're going to see a lot more attention to detail and polish if we have more designers
16:44:40 <stickster> mizmo: How do we make sure that an increased number of designers are also being consistent in their approach?
16:44:43 <mizmo> anyway sorry for bringing my random axe to grind i hope i havent driven things too far off track lol
16:45:11 <mizmo> stickster, we have to seed the system with work showing our style
16:45:32 * stickster notes that mmcgrath has wisely noted before that we often suffer from "growth vs. scaling" problems.
16:45:46 <mizmo> stickster, when folks contribute work that isn't consistent with the rest, we have to be able to quickly and easily point to example works that show the missing continuity
16:46:13 <mizmo> i dont think anyone can argue we dont need more designers
16:46:26 <stickster> mizmo: Do you foresee making some sort of Fedora design guide that gives those kinds of examples and shows designers what to aim for in their work?
16:46:40 <mizmo> but i dont think we can handle more right now with out current workflow
16:46:53 <poelcat> mizmo: that sounds great, re: detail and polish!
16:46:57 <mizmo> stickster, we can but i dont know if thats really going to be useful / cost-benefit-analysis worth it
16:47:05 <mizmo> stickster, our style does evolve, as any identity's does
16:47:08 <ctyler> mizmo: artwork and UX -- aren't these different areas? e.g., an open forum anyone can contrinute to -- that seems to me to be most usefull for artwork, especially if you don't want to acommodate input from non-Fedora users. Otoh, wouldn't you want UX input to be from people using or at least looking at Fedora?
16:47:17 <caillon> stickster, we need to target a better experience.  targetting users doesn't give us anything if the experience sucks.
16:47:19 * caillon hides
16:47:20 <ctyler> s/don't//
16:47:28 <mizmo> stickster, right now if i could easily point someone to examples to follow of fedora design without linking to 50 different wikipages and blog posts...
16:47:32 <mizmo> stickster, i wouldn't need a style guide
16:48:22 <mizmo> ctyler, artwork and ux are both design disciplines, very similar processes and tools followed
16:48:27 <stickster> caillon: Was that a non sequitur or a new topic? Because after discussing with a lot of people, I tend to agree with you.
16:48:29 <mizmo> ctyler, theres a bit of a spectrum here
16:49:01 <mizmo> ctyler,   adobe zombie, not budging [============ | floss is cool do i have the time? |=============] zomg adobe is the devil
16:49:21 <mizmo> now, i along with a number of people i can probably count on two hands (many of whom are already on our team) are in the zomg adobe is the devil camp
16:49:23 <caillon> stickster, it was a jab at a past timesuck topic
16:49:45 <mizmo> it cannot be a requirement to be in that camp to contribute. we've basically pulled in everyone we can from that camp
16:50:05 <mizmo> we need to draw people over towards that end, and the huge pool of people we can draw from aren't sure if it's worth installing fedora to do that
16:50:13 <caillon> stickster, but it is something we should follow up on another day
16:50:40 <mizmo> ctyler, think of it this way. say there's an awesome designer who lives in san francisco. i really want to hire him. i have to convince him the job is worth it to move to the boston tundra. moving your house and your family to the other side of a country is a big deal and not a decision to be taken lightly
16:50:52 * caillon notes that it's 10 before the hour.  should we get to community Q&A?
16:50:56 <mizmo> ctyler, if i could telecommute for the first couple months and make sure i really like the job and the work before moving my family
16:51:01 <mizmo> ctyler, i'm much more likely to consider it
16:51:20 <mizmo> ctyler, in the same way, we cannot expect these designers to move to the other side of the country (give up OS X) on pure faith that it's worth it
16:51:24 <mdomsch> mizmo, is it necessary for folks familiar with adobe tools to switch to other tools, to contribute to Fedora design?  I'd think not.
16:51:25 <stickster> caillon: In just a moment -- I had two more specific questions to ask
16:51:27 <mizmo> ctyler, we need to have a gentler ramp to them
16:51:33 <mizmo> mdomsch, i think so
16:51:52 <stickster> mizmo: I had two more specific questions, because we are coming toward the hour
16:51:54 <mizmo> mdomsch, if you need a proprietary tool to participate in a particular design we have lost
16:52:04 <ctyler> right, I agree. I was just thinking that if the job is commenting on Boston civic planning, they should have at least visited Boston (parallel to UX).
16:52:09 <mizmo> mdomsch, if you keep it to floss tools only, then everyone can participate, there is no $1k+ entry fee
16:52:26 <mizmo> ctyler, absolutely, but they shouldn't have to live there
16:52:34 <mdomsch> mizmo, sure - I'm not saying force anyone to use $$ software as an entry fee
16:52:43 <mizmo> ctyler, but theres a difference too between dipping your feet in the water and deep sea diving. UX is more deep sea diving than artwork
16:52:58 <mizmo> mdomsch, if you disallow $$ software you avoid that problem
16:52:59 <mdomsch> mizmo, I'm just saying - if designers already have that software as part of their lives, and want to contribute, we should not make them switch tools just to contribute
16:53:06 <stickster> mizmo: (1) Regarding the task of web redesign, the Design and Websites teams have done a great job so far on shifting the design of our web pages. Is it on your task list to move to the next phase, the main page, following F13 GA?
16:53:16 <caillon> mizmo, maybe that's why Boston roads suck, the people that designed them didn't have to live there so it didn't matter to them how bad it is ;)
16:53:22 <stickster> mizmo: (2) What specifically can the Board do to help with that?
16:53:25 <mizmo> mdomsch, here's the problem. someone comes to the fedora design team and produces an absolutely blow-your-socks-off design. another team member has an awesome idea for a refinement of the design
16:53:44 <mizmo> mdomsch, whoops. the original contributor used some $$$ plugin for some $$$ adobe thing. the other contributor can't work with the source files unless they pay up
16:53:48 <mdomsch> the tools can't inter-operate? :-(
16:53:55 <mizmo> mdomsch, no good. and it's hard to say no when the design is right in front of your face an looks awesome
16:54:09 <mizmo> mdomsch, they cannot interoperate in enough cases that i dont want people using adobe tools
16:54:27 <mizmo> stickster, absolutely, we need to continue the fedoraproject.org revamp
16:54:45 <mizmo> stickster, we need the vision for the project. otherwise we dont know to whom to make our appeal to
16:55:12 <mizmo> stickster, it's like in predator
16:55:13 <mizmo> http://reallygui.com/articles/everything-i-know-about-web-marketing-i-learned-from-predator/
16:55:23 <mizmo> "Don’t Try to Mow Down the Entire Rainforest"
16:55:32 <mizmo> "Is this scene the squad goes completely berserk & tries to kill one enemy by tearing down the entire forest with a fusillade of bullets and grenades. The  video cuts short, but moments after the bullet storm, a soldier investigates the damage and reports the results: “we hit nothing”."
16:55:56 <mizmo> "It’s tempting to think you can market your web product or service to everyone within shooting distance. However, if you’re unfocused and indiscriminately try to market your site or product to EVERYONE, you’ll just end up wasting time & ammunition (money). Yes it’s a numbers game, but work within a specific segment."
16:56:02 <jwb> how about people that don't like purple and brown?
16:56:12 * jwb says something just to show he's still here
16:56:23 <mizmo> jwb, purple and brown - sounds like bruises
16:56:38 <stickster> There's at least one fundamental ground rule that applies to everything Fedora, and that's freedom.
16:57:30 <jwb> stickster, i agree.  i'm not sure that is an awesome primary focus for a design or experience though
16:57:35 <stickster> We don't need to get into an exploration of what that means here, it's pretty obvious that there are things we can't provide UX-wise out of the box. And promising it to people is essentially lying to them.
16:57:46 <stickster> jwb: Right, I'm not saying that's our opening line :-)
16:58:14 <jwb> k
16:58:15 <mizmo> at the same time we cant spray the forest and expect to hit anything
16:59:22 <mizmo> stickster, we have a lot of good stuff we have to give, no false promises needed
16:59:44 <mizmo> i feel like the problem is
16:59:50 <mizmo> theres a huge brick wall you have to climb first
17:00:02 <mizmo> once you climb the wall... man it's awesome over there, there's rainbows and ponies and giggling elves
17:00:13 <mizmo> but how would you ever know unless you tried to climb the wall first? you can't see through it
17:00:22 <mizmo> our website could be sort of your view of what life is like after you climb the wall
17:00:26 <mizmo> so more people at least have a reason to try
17:00:40 <mizmo> we could also make it a little bit easier to climb the wall than we do right now. we really, really could without compromising freedom
17:00:46 <stickster> I agree
17:01:14 <stickster> Fedora could provide an amazing experience for instance for web designers and developers
17:01:35 <mizmo> some of us are so tired and overexerted from climbing the wall we don't have the time/energy to tell people who haven't climbed it yet what's over there
17:01:37 <mizmo> and to inspire them
17:02:08 <stickster> Since those people could be expected to have huge network effects on others
17:02:17 <mizmo> yep
17:03:21 <stickster> OK, we're at :03 but we have no questions queued from the other channel
17:03:31 <mizmo> sorry if i drove the meeting off a cliff
17:03:50 <mizmo> hopefully it was worth it for the predator and giggling elves :)
17:03:59 * spot thinks this is great discussion to be having
17:04:15 <mdomsch> I've enjoyed it
17:04:18 * ctyler didn't see the discussion go over a cliff
17:04:25 <poelcat> mizmo: i appreciate the passion you have for this topic
17:04:29 <stickster> As do I
17:04:42 * jwb hums the song from lion king
17:04:48 <mizmo> no, no, no predator
17:04:55 <caillon> I have one more question I guess from earlier....
17:05:04 <jwb> mizmo, i was referring to all the love in the room :)
17:05:14 <poelcat> jwb: lol
17:05:32 <stickster> caillon: go
17:05:33 <mizmo> slimey aliens from outerspace with big guns can love too
17:05:53 <caillon> how important is it to have a themeable codename?  should we add themeable to a requirement for codenames?  it seems there's almost a default rejection for codenames that aren't themeable....
17:06:20 <stickster> mizmo: Do you think the Design team would be freed up if we removed that qualification?
17:06:23 <jwb> in my humble opinion, codenames are sort of meh anyway
17:06:31 <mmcgrath> caillon: it sounded like it more allowed the design team to work towards a goal instead of being in competition with eachother.
17:06:44 <stickster> Or would it be so wide-open as to be chaotic?
17:06:55 <mizmo> caillon, i know it's totally arbitrary but its just what mmcgrath said. when we started keying off the codenames we saw a lot less competition and a lot more collaboration
17:07:15 <mizmo> caillon, because the general theme/thread was already decided.... in a lot of cases constraints, even arbitrary ones, can fuel creativity in a really productive way
17:07:28 <mizmo> caillon, that being said i think generally (and this is from a designers POV please dont hate me) our codenames kind of suck
17:07:38 <stickster> mizmo: "Less choice can be good sometimes"?
17:07:38 <mizmo> caillon, if you look at other projects their codenames are more memorable
17:07:42 <mizmo> stickster, absolutely
17:07:56 * stickster thought Fytnargin was pretty awesome
17:08:21 <mizmo> stickster, hmmmm...
17:08:33 * mizmo doesn't exactlyagree :)
17:08:37 <stickster> mizmo: I just like the unusual name... it's probably ugh for theming.
17:08:42 <mizmo> it's hard to spell
17:08:45 <mizmo> hard to pronounce
17:08:52 <mizmo> hard to remember
17:08:58 <mizmo> hrad to know what it means or refers to
17:09:03 <mizmo> it's kind of uninviting isn't it?
17:09:17 <stickster> We've had tons of goofy names. I do like names that are good to theme, and Laughlin has a pretty decent idea attached to it
17:09:18 <mmcgrath> which is probably why no one refers to Fedora Constantine
17:09:30 <stickster> I don't know anyone who uses the name at all, really.
17:09:36 <mizmo> it's not cool, it's obscure
17:10:05 <mizmo> just my personal opinion though
17:10:06 <jwb> why don't we just have the design team vote on a theme and ditch the code name?
17:10:09 * ctyler thinks we would just assume Fytnargin was the name of a slimy alien
17:10:13 <jwb> it's not like we're ever going to top Zod anyway
17:10:15 <stickster> jwb: We could do that.
17:10:17 <stickster> jwb: +2.
17:10:27 <mizmo> jwb, -1 sorry :(
17:10:31 <mizmo> anything involving voting and the design team
17:10:36 <caillon> mizmo, yeah i agree that our codenames could be better.  but if the codename was a bad one for themeing, couldn't a topic be decided on and just use that for submitting the artwork?
17:10:36 <mizmo> means i'll get 100 design team applicants a week
17:10:37 <jwb> it'd save some people a lot of hassle and money
17:10:42 <mizmo> who are only applying so they can 'have a say'
17:10:50 <mizmo> caillon, who gets to decide?
17:10:51 <stickster> mizmo: We could appoint a name council.
17:11:08 <stickster> Yay, more governance bodies!
17:11:20 * ctyler facepalms
17:11:22 * spot volunteers for the subcommittee on nicknames
17:11:40 <mizmo> you could have a different process for choosing them
17:11:42 <mizmo> something predictable
17:11:53 <mizmo> think of all the naming schemes people have come up with for computers in a lab
17:12:13 <caillon> mizmo, shrug.  if you wanted to just have carte blance there, i wouldn't be opposed
17:12:23 <jwb> i don't think we want a name.  we want a theme
17:12:34 <jwb> a theme is less restrictive and less costly
17:12:36 <mizmo> what would be super awesome
17:12:41 <mizmo> is if the theme ties in with the features
17:12:43 <mizmo> so for example
17:12:48 <mizmo> if you said f14's theme is connectedness
17:13:11 <stickster> :-) Now you're talking.
17:13:12 <mizmo> because say theres cool related features coming up, maybe a new cool network manager or some kind of network integration
17:13:17 <mizmo> and the artwork can reflect that
17:13:40 * spot needs to eat lunch now, but this is interesting, feel free to continue without me.
17:13:44 <mizmo> we've got this steady gradual progress where now all the artwork abstractly reflects a particular theme visually
17:13:50 * poelcat has to run too
17:13:51 <mizmo> but it's completely disconnected from the features
17:13:58 <mizmo> i think thats the next logical step
17:14:10 * mizmo is starving lol
17:14:24 <stickster> mizmo: I think intrinsic in this idea is for us to start doing a better job of planning those features in advance
17:14:35 <mizmo> stickster, thats tough too though
17:14:35 <caillon> mizmo, yeah, i'd be okay with that
17:14:45 <jwb> stickster, soliciting would be a better word
17:14:51 <mizmo> stickster, like it's tough enough to herd cats, but when a lot of the cats aren't members of the same pony farm
17:15:06 * stickster realizes that's a bigger issue than we have time to cover here.
17:15:17 <stickster> Everyone's probably hungry or tardy at this point
17:15:24 <mizmo> like, hey engineering teams! what are you gonna work on in the next few months
17:15:26 <mizmo> do a bit of a survey
17:15:31 <mizmo> find some common thread
17:15:37 <stickster> mizmo: A good start, that.
17:15:42 <mizmo> where folks are looknig for something to work on or do, then they can plug into that common thread
17:15:57 * stickster would love to keep going but thinks in fairness to the participants, we should call it a meeting
17:16:12 <mizmo> yep
17:16:15 <stickster> Board members, thanks for your patience
17:16:19 <mizmo> thanks!!!!
17:16:26 <stickster> mizmo: Thanks so much for attending and talking to us about the present and future of the Design team
17:16:35 <stickster> Looking forward to working with you in this next cycle!
17:16:36 <mizmo> thanks for inviting me and putting  up with me
17:16:41 <mizmo> yep :) same here
17:16:58 <ctyler> Thanks, mizmo!
17:17:11 <mmcgrath> thanks mo
17:17:27 <stickster> #endmeeting