19:00:12 <thaumos> #startmeeting ansible core
19:00:12 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Oct 17 19:00:12 2017 UTC.  The chair is thaumos. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:00:12 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
19:00:12 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'ansible_core'
19:00:48 * gundalow waves
19:01:09 <sivel> I am here-ish, but this overlaps with my $work stand-up today
19:01:11 <caphrim007> o/
19:01:18 <thaumos> #chair sivel caphrim007
19:01:18 <zodbot> Current chairs: caphrim007 sivel thaumos
19:01:18 <gundalow> dharmabumstead: Hi
19:01:21 <funzo> o/
19:01:26 <thaumos> just ignore the stand up @sivel
19:01:33 <thaumos> #chair gundalow dharmabumstead funzo
19:01:33 <zodbot> Current chairs: caphrim007 dharmabumstead funzo gundalow sivel thaumos
19:01:35 * gundalow waves som emore
19:01:36 <sivel> I try
19:01:41 * dharmabumstead waves
19:03:01 <thaumos> how's everyone doing today?
19:03:12 <thaumos> are we surviving the red sun in the motherland?
19:04:01 <funzo> yyyes?
19:04:06 <thaumos> heh
19:04:19 <funzo> still breathing
19:04:50 <maxamillion> o/
19:04:58 * bcoca is busy with homemade flan
19:05:11 <thaumos> yum
19:05:17 <thaumos> #chair maxamillion bcoca
19:05:17 <zodbot> Current chairs: bcoca caphrim007 dharmabumstead funzo gundalow maxamillion sivel thaumos
19:05:24 <thaumos> alrighty folks, let's get started.
19:05:27 <thaumos> First up
19:05:39 <thaumos> #topic docs refactor proposal
19:05:50 <ryansb> o/ heyo
19:05:51 <thaumos> #link https://github.com/ansible/proposals/issues/79
19:05:54 <thaumos> #chair ryansb
19:05:54 <zodbot> Current chairs: bcoca caphrim007 dharmabumstead funzo gundalow maxamillion ryansb sivel thaumos
19:06:06 <gundalow> \o/
19:06:19 <thaumos> dharmabumstead: you raised this one.  anything in depth on it you'd like to start with?
19:06:26 <bcoca> i think that needs enourmous ammounts of bikeshedding
19:06:33 <dharmabumstead> It’s all in the proposal.
19:06:47 <dharmabumstead> (At least i think it is)
19:06:48 <thaumos> okay, cool
19:06:50 <thaumos> lol
19:07:06 <thaumos> I for one am not opposed to this
19:07:16 <dharmabumstead> More importantly: does anyone *besides* me have any concerns or questions or additions?
19:07:24 <bcoca> there are a few in the proposal
19:07:30 <dharmabumstead> I saw tho
19:07:31 <dharmabumstead> Se
19:08:28 <thaumos> @dharmabumstead, can you edit the original proposal to match the feedback provided by bcoca in his comment?
19:08:30 <bcoca> +10 on getting this started ... just going to be a lot of details to go over .
19:08:38 <abadger1999> I would like to see project docs figured out.
19:08:46 <thaumos> yeah, probably.  definitely a good project for the 2.5 time frame.
19:09:03 <thaumos> Not sure I am following you 100%, @abadger1999
19:09:14 <abadger1999> But I like that we're getting thigns separated we've needed that for a long time.
19:09:29 <bcoca> dag points out the simplicity of the 'getting started' used to be, i would like that back, not sure if that is what you meant by the 'intro' section
19:09:31 <abadger1999> thaumos:  things like release managing docs.
19:09:42 <dharmabumstead> That is what i meant by the intro sectio
19:09:58 <abadger1999> thaumos: or daily triage docs.
19:10:38 <abadger1999> dharmabumstead: +1 on intro docs.  That will be great to have separate from the other docs.
19:10:39 <thaumos> abadger1999, so you mean process docs for contributors/maintainers
19:10:55 <dharmabumstead> Cool
19:11:07 <thaumos> yeah, I think overall it's a good idea to tidy up all the things
19:11:07 <abadger1999> thaumos: yes.... but it's a different type of contributor than the people we focus on mostly right now.
19:11:14 * thaumos nods
19:11:14 <dharmabumstead> I see the project docs as a separate topic from the docs reorg.
19:11:36 <abadger1999> thaumos: ie: right now we focus on the PR submitting, possibly drive by contributors.
19:11:37 <bcoca> what are 'project docs' in this context?
19:11:42 <dharmabumstead> Should we switch topics? Or do we want to finish discussing the reorg proposal and then switch?
19:12:10 <thaumos> yeah, let's focus on user doc reorg for now
19:12:19 <docschick> +1
19:12:20 <thaumos> I do want to cover project doc too
19:12:25 <abadger1999> thaumos: We can pull people into more long term assistance and also more leadership roles within the community with docs addressing those pieces as well.
19:12:25 <thaumos> oh hai docschick!
19:12:28 <thaumos> #chair docschick
19:12:28 <zodbot> Current chairs: bcoca caphrim007 dharmabumstead docschick funzo gundalow maxamillion ryansb sivel thaumos
19:12:35 * docschick waves
19:12:50 <bcoca> i think we all agree on reorg .. its really needed, now we just need to agree on details
19:12:57 <dharmabumstead> Keep in mind that the big difference with the reorg proposal initially we be the TOC. I will mostly be a matter of rearranging the current content.
19:12:59 <abadger1999> dharmabumstead: <nod>  I just want to figure out wher eit should land without stepping on what you're trying to accomplish :-)
19:13:01 <maxamillion> bcoca: +1
19:13:04 <thaumos> so refactor/cleanup; are there any other asks from our group? if not, I think we're all in agreenment
19:13:40 <thaumos> all favor of refactor, vote please :-)
19:13:43 <thaumos> +1
19:13:46 <maxamillion> +1
19:13:46 <gundalow> +100000000000
19:13:50 <dharmabumstead> The next step in the process will be adding better front matter/intros
19:13:50 <abadger1999> +1
19:13:52 <dharmabumstead> Cool
19:13:55 <bcoca> +1^10
19:14:01 <dharmabumstead> Glad people are cool with it.
19:14:03 <docschick> +100000
19:14:16 <thaumos> @dharmabumstead, :-)
19:14:21 <bcoca> dharmabumstead: its been 'on my list' since before docschick got hired
19:14:34 <thaumos> let everyone know if we can help with organising content in any way.
19:14:34 <dharmabumstead> There will be some additional discussion at Meredith’s meeting this afteroon and then I will branch and hit the ground runnin
19:14:36 <dharmabumstead> G
19:14:53 <thaumos> cool, sounds good.  I alerted her to it as well an hour ago; @dharmabumstead
19:15:08 <thaumos> alright, moving on
19:15:18 <thaumos> #topic project docs discussion
19:15:32 <dharmabumstead> Cool.
19:16:07 <thaumos> so @abadger1999, my thoughts are while we're doing the clean up we could either
19:16:07 <thaumos> A. reorg out project/dev related items
19:16:07 <thaumos> B. Tidy up the Dev section to be a little bit easier consumable.
19:16:08 <dharmabumstead> Feedback encouraged. https://github.com/ansible/proposals/issues/79
19:16:34 <abadger1999> thaumos: <nod>
19:16:49 <thaumos> what do you lean towards, @abadger1999?
19:17:25 <abadger1999> Also need a space to land in.. Maybe a directory under docsite/rst/ that's for thorwing project docs in until we understand what the structure needs to be?
19:17:38 <thaumos> right, so A.
19:17:43 <abadger1999> Right now we have very little in the way of project docs in the public repo.
19:17:46 <gundalow> What does A & B mean?
19:18:05 <abadger1999> it's scattered around in google docs, maybe a few etherpads, community.wiki pages, etc.
19:18:10 * gundalow may be missing how they relate to Proposal#79
19:18:18 <abadger1999> gundalow: topic change.
19:18:35 <thaumos> A means, reorg it out into it's own space. B means keep it as a subsection in docs.ansible.com with it's own tree and structure.
19:18:43 <thaumos> agreed, I hate the scatter
19:18:50 <gundalow> What's the problem we are trying to solve?
19:18:55 <dharmabumstead> So who is the audience for the project docs? Is it internal or external?
19:18:56 <abadger1999> And github gists is another source... I have a gist of "how to run the meetings"
19:19:23 <thaumos> problem is trying to solve for the one stop shop for all contributors/maintainers.
19:19:24 <abadger1999> I keep wanting to land that somewhere but we don't have a designated place yet.
19:19:44 <thaumos> @dharmabumstead both internal and external developers.
19:20:04 <bcoca> abadger1999: sounds like community/
19:20:07 <dharmabumstead> Ok
19:20:18 <gundalow> Contributor docs proposal has been agreed to be: https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/169#issuecomment-311369221
19:20:23 <abadger1999> bcoca: yep.  It's community but I think community is part of the rorg proposal.
19:21:04 <thaumos> yep, totally sounds like this issue
19:21:28 <abadger1999> Also, some of the docs are better with different requirements.. like anything to do with creating a release should not have the potential to break the build.
19:21:58 <bcoca> well, my argument there is that html docs are not needed for release
19:22:12 <abadger1999> Really any of the "I'm documenting the process I use to do X" docs should end up easy to modify so that it encourages the person doing X to document their steps as they're doing the work.
19:22:14 <dharmabumstead> My question comes back to this: are we ever going to have someone who is not an Ansible/Red Hat employee doing release management work?
19:22:22 <abadger1999> Yes.
19:22:28 <thaumos> umm...
19:22:29 <dharmabumstead> We are?
19:22:31 <bcoca> possiby
19:22:35 <thaumos> umm...
19:22:35 <abadger1999> I'm thinking 1 to two years.
19:22:39 <thaumos> umm...
19:22:53 <thaumos> I don't know about that.
19:22:53 <dharmabumstead> My next question: why would we do this?
19:22:59 <bcoca> thaumos: most probably for 'legacy' versions
19:23:12 <abadger1999> bcoca: Exactly my though.
19:23:13 <bcoca> dharmabumstead: cause we need to be able to offload work
19:23:16 <abadger1999> *thought
19:23:16 <thaumos> why would we even enable that?
19:23:31 <thaumos> It doesn't make sense to me to enable people to continue using something like 1.9
19:23:32 <bcoca> thaumos: cause people still want to update 1.9 .. but we dont want to
19:23:48 <bcoca> people ARE using it, no matter what we do or say
19:24:02 <thaumos> In cases like that, they can figure out how to do backporting and releases themselves.
19:24:04 <bcoca> i just had questions about 1.7 posed recently
19:24:06 <dharmabumstead> Update doesn’t necessarily mean *release*, does it?
19:24:21 <bcoca> dharmabumstead: that is the posiblity we are opening up to here
19:24:34 <abadger1999> thaumos: it's an open source project... at some point hte alternatives will be allow people to see how they can make this happen if they're willing to do the work or we get forked.
19:24:49 <bcoca> just not RH release .. but project release ... like people that still release 2.10 linux kernels even though wer are a 4.17
19:24:55 <thaumos> Personally, I do see value in having an html doc for release.  One can argue that if someone wants to roll their own release internally, on their own internal repos, they can do it using our doc.
19:25:16 <bcoca> thaumos: allow for it, dont make it a dependancy
19:25:38 <abadger1999> Also... as we get better at this, we'll want to allow people to help us with major releases more too.  The key there will be if we can split the work that requires internal access from external access.
19:26:12 <bcoca> abadger1999: almost everything except uploading to release servers and key signing
19:26:14 <abadger1999> Curating blocker bugs can be done by external contributors, for instance.
19:26:15 <dharmabumstead> Sure. But the doc will have to be generic enough to make sense to non-employees. And as discussed the other day, this opens up the rabbit hole of how much internal stuff do we reveal? Jenkins servers, etc
19:26:19 <abadger1999> cherrypicking
19:26:22 <gundalow> Having it public allows people to say "oh, when you do RC/Final releases you should also publicise that at X"
19:26:45 <abadger1999> dharmabumstead: Talking about it yesterday.. it seemed pretty straightforward.
19:26:57 <thaumos> can someone link me to that discussion please?  I missed it.
19:27:04 <thaumos> doesn't have to be now
19:27:13 <abadger1999> We can tell people that there is a jenkins server and a job that does X.  They just might not be able to access the server.
19:27:14 <bcoca> i personally advocate moving to awx server as, unlike jenkins, you can rely on the RBAC
19:27:36 <maxamillion> bcoca: +1 (fwiw)
19:27:38 <dharmabumstead> So what is the value in that?
19:27:40 <abadger1999> bcoca: <nod>  And suggestions like that (and implementations) can be community driven as well.
19:27:58 <bcoca> dharmabumstead: would enable us to give access to credentials w/o giving the credentials away
19:27:59 <abadger1999> thaumos: I can after the meeting.
19:28:05 <dharmabumstead> (Telling people about the Jenkins server but not giving them access)
19:28:06 <thaumos> thank you sir!
19:28:07 <dharmabumstead> Ok
19:28:17 <thaumos> same thing with the awx server as well
19:28:19 <bcoca> dharmabumstead: exactly why i propose awx
19:28:26 <dharmabumstead> Was replying to abadger.
19:28:27 <thaumos> people can then hit the web page, but not get access to the content within
19:28:29 <bcoca> cause then we CAN give access
19:28:49 <dharmabumstead> Moving to an outside thing would address that
19:28:57 <bcoca> ^ thaumos, with awx they can USE the credentails, w/o having to have them
19:29:07 <bcoca> also .. dogfood!
19:29:07 <abadger1999> dharmabumstead: Ultimately and ideally, would like it to be the same idea as some of tower's permissions enables.... People can review and audit the process even if they can't kick it off.
19:29:20 <dharmabumstead> OK
19:29:29 <thaumos> well, awx doesn't have a portal you always have to auth in
19:29:39 <bcoca> i would never make my jenkins public, but awx could be
19:29:51 <dharmabumstead> I would see that material as possibly living in the community guide. gundalow - thoughts?
19:29:56 * misc do have public jenkins for others project
19:29:59 <maxamillion> thaumos: that's a good point, there'd no longer be a public read-only view of jobs
19:30:11 <abadger1999> But as I say.... this portion of it is further into the future... we first have to build the community of long term, commited contributors by showing them what we do and how we do it.
19:30:39 <thaumos> I don't see bad things to come of this... I just want to tread lightly on how much control we do give, and how we give it.
19:30:39 <dharmabumstead> What time frame would that be?
19:30:41 <abadger1999> misc: yay!  I was going to ask what OSAS hosted for open source projects.
19:30:45 <gundalow> dharmabumstead: yup, Software Development Lifecycle is part of /community
19:30:49 <dharmabumstead> thaumos: +1
19:31:01 <bcoca> that scares me, jenkins' access control is too easy to bypass
19:31:07 <thaumos> yep
19:31:10 <thaumos> it is
19:31:19 <thaumos> I am very interested in the HOWS of this
19:31:20 <dharmabumstead> OK. It should meet the same doc standards as we want for the rest of the docs.
19:31:28 <thaumos> Yes, I think it should.
19:31:29 <gundalow> dharmabumstead: +1
19:31:37 <dharmabumstead> Which i can rant about at length if given the opportunity. Haha
19:31:39 <thaumos> which is part of the point here.
19:31:42 <abadger1999> dharmabumstead: Would have to be post-processed standards on some of it.
19:31:48 <gundalow> REALLY $SOMETHING IMPORTANT THAT THE RELEASE DOCS ARE VERY CLEAR
19:32:05 <gundalow> oops, accident, though not really, shouty gundalow
19:32:09 <abadger1999> As I say, anytime we're documenting process, we need to do everything we can to encourage the people doing the process presently to write it down.
19:32:12 <thaumos> not just release docs, but all dev docs in general
19:32:36 <thaumos> there are lots of pages that are there, but you can only see them if you know about them
19:32:41 <thaumos> Triage, who knows
19:32:49 <thaumos> release who knows
19:33:02 <thaumos> I am sure there are docs I still have yet to see myself.
19:33:37 <dharmabumstead> That’ll get fixed. If you see stuff that isn’t in the TOC, please hit me over the head with it
19:33:38 <maxamillion> thaumos: +1
19:33:49 <bcoca> http://docs.ansible.com/ansible/latest/release_and_maintenance.html
19:34:05 <bcoca> ^ i know this by heart now ... but no one else seems able to get to it
19:34:25 <thaumos> @dharmabumstead, and that's why I sort of couple this discussion with your refactor one... because TOC or an index is the first thing I always rely on.
19:34:31 <abadger1999> In the release manager doc... I tried to split the docs that fit into the present process of submit  PR, get copyedited, clarified, reviewed, and then pushed out from the process doc which needs to be treated differently.
19:34:37 <thaumos> @bcoca, because you know it exists.
19:34:43 <bcoca> exactly
19:34:49 <thaumos> If it isn't linked to in toc, index, or anywhere then it's lost
19:34:55 <abadger1999> The only thing is... I don't know where the process doc really should live.
19:34:55 <bcoca> its linked
19:34:57 <dharmabumstead> Yeah. That’s hw that proposal was born - looking at the TOC and realizing it was hopeless outgrown as is
19:34:58 <bcoca> its just 3 steps down
19:35:06 <thaumos> lol exactly
19:35:11 <thaumos> 3 steps that someone needs to nav
19:35:36 <bcoca> and cannot go 'back' cause our breadcrumbs only have root>current
19:35:42 <dharmabumstead> *everyone* will get the chance - and be encouraged - to look at the reorg in progress and provide feedback.
19:35:42 <thaumos> In my mind, TOC contains a Community section, in Community, the tree begins with all this stuff.
19:35:56 <abadger1999> dharmabumstead: it's not just docs inside of docsite/rst that aren't linked to... there's also docs on other sites that need to be brought into a common tree (or at least linked from the common tree)
19:35:58 <dharmabumstead> Of course.
19:36:11 <bcoca> our current left hand list does not seem to have order nor reason to it
19:36:27 <bcoca> some of the stuff makes sense as top level, other stuff should be a subsection
19:36:30 <thaumos> abadger1999, off the top of your head, how many of these docs exist in google drive?
19:36:39 <dharmabumstead> Hence the reorg proposal
19:36:52 <maxamillion> bcoca: that was brand new information to me as of last week
19:36:53 <abadger1999> thaumos: My drive for doing this is that I don't know.  I can't find things in google drive right now.
19:37:23 <maxamillion> bcoca: and while I'm not super active all the time, I'm also not brand new to ansible land
19:37:26 <abadger1999> thaumos: gundalow might know better because he was spearheading a consolidation effort that I didn't know about ;-)
19:37:27 <dharmabumstead> I am cool with bringing external stuff in but it *has* to be “external-facing documentation quality”. I will be a stubborn bastard about this.
19:37:40 <abadger1999> dharmabumstead: then we need a different thing for this.
19:38:02 <abadger1999> dharmabumstead: which is fine and why I said I don't want to step on what you're doing.
19:38:06 <maxamillion> brb
19:38:09 <gundalow> abadger1999: What's the Q?
19:38:10 <abadger1999> dharmabumstead: but we need a place for it to live.
19:38:10 <thaumos> why? what's wrong with it being doc quality?
19:38:19 <dharmabumstead> We’ve been trying to clean it up, but we stil have way way too many bits of e docs that are written in engineering instead of human.
19:38:28 <abadger1999> ‎[12:32:09] ‎<‎abadger1999‎>‎ As I say, anytime we're documenting process, we need to do everything we can to encourage the people doing the process presently to write it down.
19:38:31 <gundalow> Oh, what's in Google Docs, only a few bits that maybe should be made public
19:38:32 <abadger1999> ‎[12:34:31] ‎<‎abadger1999‎>‎ In the release manager doc... I tried to split the docs that fit into the present process of submit  PR, get copyedited, clarified, reviewed, and then pushed out from the process doc which needs to be treated differently.
19:38:39 <abadger1999> thaumos: ^
19:38:57 <dharmabumstead> Slang...half-sentences - abbreviated words (“vars”, “cwd”) instead of ful words, etc
19:40:14 <abadger1999> thaumos: for cost, reward, we need to get process doc content put into a common place even if it is written in engineer-speak... the audience is engineers who are going to performing those steps.
19:40:17 <bcoca> basically anything bcoca would write
19:40:17 <dharmabumstead> We are at the point of growth now where more enterprises are picking us up, and we are being sold (Ansible Engine). The expectation for professionalism is going way up. And the spectre of having to localize all of this in a meaningful way is approaching reality more and more
19:41:07 <thaumos> agreed, @dharmabumstead, but I understand their point
19:41:14 <abadger1999> thaumos: So if community/ is already taken for things that need to be copyedited and production quality, we need a separate area for the process docs.
19:41:18 * gundalow isn't sure where this discussion is going
19:41:21 <thaumos> yeah
19:41:26 <thaumos> let's take a step back really quick
19:41:36 <thaumos> So let's frame what we're asking for here.
19:41:39 <dharmabumstead> abadger1999: i don’t mind technically deep a gauge as long as the audience expectation is set accordingly (something else we need to improve a lot). I do mind putting something out that looks like someone’s crib notes
19:41:51 <gundalow> We could have made the release doc "production quality" in teh time we've spent discussing it here
19:41:57 <dharmabumstead> Language. Not “a gauge”
19:42:00 <abadger1999> dharmabumstead: What I'm asking for is someplace to put people's crib notes.
19:42:02 <dharmabumstead> Hehe
19:42:13 <dharmabumstead> Github
19:42:16 <thaumos> 1. A reorg of dev/contributor content
19:42:16 <thaumos> 2. Pull all source of documented processes into a single location
19:42:16 <thaumos> 3. Where does this all live?
19:42:25 <bcoca> ^ mad spattering of engineer at 2am while trying to document the process he is scrambling to fix
19:42:29 <abadger1999> thaumos: +1 good summary.
19:42:37 <thaumos> Okay, cool
19:42:48 <thaumos> For number one, we ALL agree this needs to be done.
19:42:49 <dharmabumstead> AFK for 10
19:42:56 <thaumos> correct?
19:42:59 <gundalow> thaumos: yes
19:43:00 <abadger1999> yep.
19:43:02 <thaumos> ok
19:43:10 <thaumos> 2. we all agree this needs to be done too
19:43:21 <thaumos> correct?
19:43:27 * gundalow does
19:43:41 <thaumos> please if anyone is opposed to any of this, speak up
19:43:44 <abadger1999> more or less I would be okay with two locations with appropriate links between them.
19:44:16 <thaumos> so it's basically #3 that needs to be figured out.
19:44:28 <gundalow> updates/ 2am random thoughts can be recorded anywhere, then go through the standard PR process
19:44:29 <bcoca> <= still thinking ... lots of community docs are 'curent process' .. what he is asking aobut is quick updates to this
19:44:37 <thaumos> oh and #4 changing of some processes to allow for #2
19:44:48 <thaumos> which is what bcoca just said.
19:45:01 <abadger1999> Since I understand deeply what dharmabumstead wants but I know it conflicts a bit with the needs of a "crib notes" area (but the two are going to refer to each other because community contributors overlaps in both areas)
19:45:18 <thaumos> This is why I am a fan of wikis.
19:45:20 <gundalow> And in my mind it's find for new process docs to start in gDrive, we review and comment there, once we are happy we raise a PR, get community feedback & wordsmith
19:45:22 <abadger1999> gundalow: I don't think so.
19:45:37 <abadger1999> (reply to 2 am notes anywhere and then go through the PR process)
19:45:39 <bcoca> gundalow: he wants a public forum specifically
19:45:40 <thaumos> wikis allow for notes, can be controlled, and are quick to edit.
19:45:49 <gundalow> abadger1999: apart from release procedure what else may need quick update?
19:45:58 <bcoca> now we are talking about dividing our docs
19:46:14 <abadger1999> if we rely on that, the notes will not end up in the central place. they'll end up where it was easy for the note-taker to take them (or won't be recorded at all)
19:46:20 <thaumos> which is what abadger1999 eluded to because of doc quality concerns.
19:46:24 <bcoca> abadger1999: one thing to consider, once documented it is rare that the process would change too much/too fast
19:46:25 <gundalow> so leave the release doc in hacking/
19:46:46 <gundalow> I don't think there will be that many docs that change much
19:47:00 <thaumos> okay, let's step back again.
19:47:09 <abadger1999> I did propose the wiki at one point but gundalow countered with the fact that the wiki has lead to a disorganization of the docs.
19:47:19 <abadger1999> which I totally understand too.
19:47:28 <thaumos> How about this as a suggestion, @abadger1999, can you provide out all of the docs that you think need to be consolidated into one location?
19:47:45 <thaumos> not right now, but as a follow up.
19:47:47 <abadger1999> thaumos: for that list we should start with gundalow's list
19:47:56 <abadger1999> gundalow: do you have the propsal link handy?
19:48:08 <thaumos> I think it was posted earlier.
19:48:31 <thaumos> was it the community issue?
19:48:32 <abadger1999> gundalow: other things besides release docs... triage procedure, thaumosah yes... https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/169#issuecomment-311369221
19:48:45 <abadger1999> sorry...  Control-U doesn't work in GUI apps.
19:49:33 <thaumos> part of the problem is that greg or robyn aren't in attendance in all the places. ...
19:49:33 <abadger1999> gundalow: triage procedure, docs build procedure, how to run a meeting
19:49:39 <thaumos> I also was not aware of the community meeting as well.
19:49:47 <thaumos> so we're already sort of disjointed.
19:49:57 <abadger1999> gundalow: there will be more like that as time goes on... but all along similar lines.
19:50:06 <thaumos> and the proposals repo, community repo, and docs, and all the things are haphazard because of it.
19:50:14 <abadger1999> <nod>
19:50:52 <thaumos> ok, let's table this for now.
19:51:08 <thaumos> I think we should have a follow up discussion about it thought
19:51:10 <abadger1999> gundalow: I'm okay with things living in hacking but there is one problem... hacking doesn't have rst formatting turned into html
19:51:13 <thaumos> s/thought/though
19:51:21 <thaumos> because there is value in this for sure.
19:51:30 <abadger1999> gundalow: so formatting things that get cut and paste (like links) is not ideal.
19:51:33 <maxamillion> thaumos: wikis are where information goes to die ;)
19:51:46 <maxamillion> thaumos: oops, was caught in backscroll buffer ... sorry
19:51:54 <thaumos> LOL
19:52:03 <thaumos> yeah yeah yeah...
19:52:09 <abadger1999> maxamillion: to quote robyn: WIKI Where Information Kills Itself
19:52:20 <maxamillion> abadger1999: that's the one +1
19:52:32 <thaumos> I hate how google docs and etherpads are used as live wikis though
19:52:37 <thaumos> seems counterintuitive to me
19:52:42 <bcoca> wikis are for version controlled flamewars
19:52:54 <thaumos> sounds like ansible project to me
19:53:03 <maxamillion> the only group that keeps a wiki up to date is Arch Linux and a missive tip of that hat to them because I have no idea how they do it
19:53:17 <bcoca> gentoo did for a while .. but they forgot to backup ...
19:53:21 <gundalow> abadger1999: sorry, back
19:53:22 <maxamillion> thaumos: oh yeah, google docs and etherpads as living documents seems wrong
19:53:27 <thaumos> I did as well.
19:53:28 <maxamillion> anyways ... sorry for derailing
19:53:32 <thaumos> it's okay :-)
19:53:35 <thaumos> anywho
19:53:40 <thaumos> let's continue the discussion
19:54:31 <abadger1999> <nod> Yep.  It's not a pressing thing... just want to figure it out and not step on things dharmabumstead is working towards while we do so.
19:55:16 <bcoca> physically step, then he'll yell and you'll drop your sandals
19:56:30 <dharmabumstead> The user-facing documentation is *not* the place for “crib notes”.
19:56:47 <dharmabumstead> That is my whole point. With the reorg, with the cleanup
19:57:11 <dharmabumstead> We can *point to* places where the crib notes are kept, if we really need to
19:57:14 <abadger1999> dharmabumstead: yep, and thus we need another place that's not rst/community/ for those
19:57:56 <maxamillion> dharmabumstead: +1
19:57:56 <dharmabumstead> But in order to achieve the level of professionalism that we are expected to maintain in the documentation, we need to start *not* making them a place to dump “crib notes”.
19:57:57 <abadger1999> dharmabumstead: +1
19:58:26 <bcoca> or separate engine docs ?
19:58:37 <dharmabumstead> bcoca: *shudder*
19:58:47 <thaumos> yeah let's not start down that rabbit hole
19:58:59 <thaumos> let's have a follow up discussion folks.  We need to talk more on this obviously.
19:59:08 <thaumos> we need to close out for the WWG
19:59:13 <dharmabumstead> Heh
19:59:18 <dharmabumstead> Ok
19:59:18 * abadger1999 grabs Bugs Bunny's mop and then asks "What rabbit hole"?
19:59:26 * dharmabumstead lols
19:59:42 <thaumos> #endmeeting