18:00:01 <dmsimard> #startmeeting Ansible Community Meeting
18:00:01 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Feb 16 18:00:01 2022 UTC.
18:00:01 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
18:00:01 <zodbot> The chair is dmsimard. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
18:00:01 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:01 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'ansible_community_meeting'
18:00:10 <andersson007_> o/
18:00:22 <dmsimard> #topic Agenda https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/645
18:00:40 <dmsimard> #info Agenda: https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/645 / Topics: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics
18:00:47 <cyberpear> o/
18:00:48 <samccann> o/
18:00:53 <dmsimard> #chair andersson007_ cyberpear samccann jillr
18:00:53 <zodbot> Current chairs: andersson007_ cyberpear dmsimard jillr samccann
18:00:56 <acozine> o/
18:01:26 <andersson007_> hi folks! Steering Committee, this is the last chance to vote on https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/67 who hasn't do it yet as I'm gonna count the votes within 30 minutes
18:01:32 <dmsimard> #topic updates
18:01:34 <andersson007_> please vote who didn't
18:01:58 <dmsimard> #chair acozine
18:01:58 <zodbot> Current chairs: acozine andersson007_ cyberpear dmsimard jillr samccann
18:02:04 * dericcrago waves
18:02:11 * gundalow waves
18:02:14 <dmsimard> #chair dericcrago gundalow
18:02:14 <zodbot> Current chairs: acozine andersson007_ cyberpear dericcrago dmsimard gundalow jillr samccann
18:02:57 <dmsimard> #info There is still work to do but we are in the process of bootstrapping community maintained images for ansible-test and execution environments: https://github.com/ansible-community/images
18:03:29 <briantist> just voted, sorry I thought I had already voted on that one
18:03:57 <dmsimard> thanks briantist :)
18:04:00 <dmsimard> #chair briantist
18:04:00 <zodbot> Current chairs: acozine andersson007_ briantist cyberpear dericcrago dmsimard gundalow jillr samccann
18:04:09 <briantist> one thing I find difficult about the async process is always getting notifications about issues when other people vote and being unsure whether I already voted or not
18:04:37 <dmsimard> #info Ansible 5.4.0 coming next week (Feb 22)
18:04:55 <gundalow> briantist: Yup, I struggle with that. Wonder what we can do to improve that
18:05:17 <cidrblock[m]> hey all!
18:05:32 <jillr> I counted too soon, I'll update #67 in a few minutes to give people more time
18:05:39 <gundalow> Wonder if 👍️ 👎️ reactions could help (one comment per vote)
18:06:01 <gundalow> #chair cidrblock
18:06:01 <zodbot> Current chairs: acozine andersson007_ briantist cidrblock cyberpear dericcrago dmsimard gundalow jillr samccann
18:06:06 <dmsimard> any other updates before we switch to a topic ?
18:06:27 <andersson007_> thumbs ups / downs should work I think
18:06:29 <briantist> I think it would be better.. but we specifically ask people to comment and not emoji react, so I figured there was some reason for that
18:07:18 <andersson007_> let's try to use them instead of commens?
18:07:34 <acozine> is it because emoji are easier to undo?
18:07:41 <andersson007_> ah...
18:07:47 <andersson007_> true
18:07:59 <briantist> is that important?
18:08:23 <andersson007_> we could try:)
18:08:41 <acozine> not to me, but I think that was the reason we came to the conclusion we did
18:09:01 <acozine> I'm all for trying emoji reactions instead of separate comments
18:09:20 <andersson007_> we could attach a screenshot to vote results posted in a topic:)
18:09:34 <andersson007_> joking
18:09:46 <briantist> not to be meta, but I suppose it requires a vote in and of itself? to switch to reactions?
18:09:56 <acozine> I think we can trust that folks won't change their votes on a whim
18:10:08 <jillr> iirc emoji reactions can be difficult to count who did what when there's a lot of them, you have to use the graphql api because the web UI condenses it after a point to just a number
18:10:22 <jillr> like to differentiate SC vs community
18:10:50 <briantist> oh interesting.. I don't think we have enough people voting for that to happen, but I suppose that could be a concern at some point
18:11:06 <jillr> yeah mainly to be aware that if that happens, there is a way to get the data
18:11:12 <jillr> but it's non-obvious
18:11:21 <acozine> that's cool, TIL
18:12:14 <dmsimard> Going to highlight some active discussions and we can continue chatting
18:12:20 <briantist> I think I could write a quick github action to pull the data and tally votes, as long as the data is available (overkill maybe.. but I wonder if it could trigger on each reaction, and update a vote tally comment so it also won't spam watchers... 🤔)
18:12:35 <briantist> dmsimard: sounds good, sorry for derail
18:12:39 <dmsimard> #topic Active discussions
18:12:59 <dmsimard> #info FEEDBACK WANTED: which directories / files / file patterns should be excluded from the Ansible installation? https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/65
18:13:11 <dmsimard> #info How to handle moving of content from collections inside the Ansible package to collections outside the Ansible package? https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/66
18:13:48 <dmsimard> #info FEEDBACK WANTED: Crafting better changelog fragments https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/64
18:14:13 <dmsimard> #info Revamping the community/contributor documentation https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/60
18:14:30 <dmsimard> I thought this was a good opportunity to share those even if they aren't a vote :)
18:15:01 <remindbot[m]> @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting
18:15:28 <dmsimard> Any particular topic we want to tackle or should we continue talking about how voting works ?
18:17:56 <samccann> Just noticing we didn't get any discussion on https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/60
18:18:26 <samccann> specifically, whether we should eventually move these source files 'someplace else" out of ansible/ansible
18:18:27 <dmsimard> samccann: I saw that too, would you like to talk to us about it ?
18:18:31 <briantist> ah I subscribed to that one.. but haven't had a chance to absorb it
18:19:06 <samccann> The gist of it is - we are currently forcing docs into ansible/ansible repo that aren't related directly to core. It's how our docs publication works right now.
18:19:17 <dmsimard> #topic Revamping the community/contributor documentation https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/60
18:19:40 <samccann> So the contributing to collections guide for example - not really core related, but I'm putting the files in ansible/ansible so they can get published.
18:20:55 <acozine> the benefit is, someone can easily hop from "I'm learning about X module" to "how would I contribute to the docs for this?" to "hm, how could I get involved in the community?", because all those topics are addressed in one place
18:21:14 <dmsimard> I know there's a docs directory in hashi_vault: https://github.com/ansible-collections/community.hashi_vault/tree/main/docs, though my understanding is that these are not incorporated in the docs.ansible.com docsite -- are you suggesting we provide a mechanism in order to be able to do that ?
18:21:29 <briantist> they are incorporated in docs.ansible.com
18:21:42 <dmsimard> oh, my bad :o
18:21:44 <briantist> for example: https://docs.ansible.com/ansible/latest/collections/community/hashi_vault/docsite/contributor_guide.html
18:21:49 <samccann> acozine: we aren't (yet) talking about moving the html files off of docs.ansible.com/ansible
18:22:04 <dmsimard> briantist: that's great, actually
18:22:06 <acozine> ah, sorry, I misunderstood then
18:22:09 <samccann> just source files. We'd have to extend `antsibull` for example to pull the rst files for this from another repo during build time
18:22:20 <acozine> ah, gotcha
18:23:02 <samccann> talking about this guide - https://docs.ansible.com/ansible/devel/community/contributions_collections.html
18:23:06 <samccann> (and there's more like that)
18:24:26 <samccann> so I guess the community discussion is - are there benefits to keeping some docs files in a separate repo if they are not directly related to ansible-core?  With the understanding it takes some coding to make this happen?
18:25:14 <samccann> ok I did write some pros n cons down  a bit back - https://hackmd.io/3Cvy2N8tTfSrUzqYZmfEHA#Options
18:25:37 <briantist> I do think that makes sense... a no coding approach would be to make a pseudo-collection that only has a docsite and include it in the ansible package.. I doubt that's how we'd actually want to go about that though
18:25:38 <cybette> o/
18:25:38 <cybette> sorry, was in another meeting that started late and went over the allotted time
18:25:42 <dmsimard> #link https://hackmd.io/3Cvy2N8tTfSrUzqYZmfEHA#Options
18:25:54 <dmsimard> #chair cybette
18:25:54 <zodbot> Current chairs: acozine andersson007_ briantist cidrblock cyberpear cybette dericcrago dmsimard gundalow jillr samccann
18:27:32 <dmsimard> samccann: is it fair to say that there is no need for these to be versioned after ansible-core or ansible itself ? as in, there would only be latest (or devel)
18:28:19 <samccann> Yeah that's a separate discussion https://hackmd.io/pEw-17IvQ-Ce1cBZG-pXQQ
18:28:51 <samccann> I haven't put that into a community-topic yet, but that's the ideas there. Basically, community and contributor guides aren't tied to a release so how can we get around having different versions of them
18:29:16 <acozine> I like the idea of those pages only being in `latest` if we can make it work
18:29:32 <samccann> ^^ is closer to acozine's original worry/question - how can we publish them 'someplace else' w/o a version, but still allow curious users to realize they can also contribute
18:30:00 <remindbot[m]> @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting
18:30:06 <acozine> if we could make `antsibull` pull certain docs in for `latest` builds only . . .
18:30:13 <samccann> acozine - we can't have them only on /latest/. It's either we backport to keep latest/devel in sync, or publish only to /devel/ or... ??
18:30:35 <briantist> they should show up in `devel` too, since `devel` is later than `latest` 🙃 or at least redirect
18:30:38 <acozine> but if they're not in the ansible/ansible repo . . . might that be possible?
18:30:39 <samccann> the time consuming part isn't the publishing, it's the backports
18:31:09 <samccann> as in noticing someone made a change on devel and remembering to backport it to latest so that stays accurate. It's not something we've been good at in the past (thus the few files we already only publish to devel)
18:32:19 <samccann> acozine: possible - we'd need a 'nightly' build for latest then as that is typically only updated when a minor release happens
18:32:30 <samccann> ...and someone reminds me... cus it's not automated as part of a release anymore
18:33:14 <samccann> I feel like I've talked myself into a tangled little knot here :-)
18:33:32 <briantist> haha, you've described the existing knot
18:33:32 <samccann> maybe what would help is just setting some guardrails.
18:33:51 <samccann> guardrail one: Ideally, docs in ansible/ansible should relate to core.
18:33:58 <samccann> is that ^^ something folks agree on?
18:34:29 <acozine> sounds reasonable
18:34:44 <acozine> as long as we have a way to keep other docs in `/latest/ansible`
18:34:45 <dmsimard> I'm not sure that is entirely up to us to decide
18:35:21 <jillr> I'm pretty out of my depth with docs but on its own it sounds sensible?
18:35:46 <briantist> there is a distinct difference even now between what's in `ansible/ansible` (the git repo), and what's published on `docs.ansible.com` (the site)
18:36:11 <briantist> and I think (correct me if I'm wrong) the crux of samccann 's proposal/discussion is about the former
18:36:24 <samccann> briantist: agreed. Which is why I'm wondering if this should be another case where source files are not in ansible/ansible.... or am I just making more work for myself and others :-)
18:37:15 <samccann> We've probably chewed on this quite a bit so far... I don't want to hog the whole community meeting for sure
18:37:28 <briantist> I do think it's a good thing to think about yeah, takes work to implement, but is probably more correct in the long run..
18:38:09 <samccann> ok cool thanks!
18:38:16 <dmsimard> samccann: unless mistaken there are no other burning topics and discussion has been somewhat productive so I don't mind continuing if we can straigthen this out
18:39:31 <samccann> okay so I'm already working on merging what andersson007_ has in the community-docs repo into ansible/ansible so I can get it published
18:39:43 <samccann> But the next steps after that are probably to dig deeper into two things:
18:40:01 <samccann> 1 - how to pull docs from another repo (so we can move these 'someplace else' and not clutter up ansible/ansible
18:40:16 <samccann> 2- Decide how or if we can create unversioned docs from these files
18:40:51 <samccann> #2 requires keeping inside the general guardrail of 'as a user/developer of ansible, I want to be able to find out how to contribute to the project'
18:41:19 <briantist> my mention of a pseudo collection (not a great idea really) is to point out that we DO include docs on docs.ansible.com that do not come from core, so there's a little bit of precedent
18:41:35 <samccann> yep we do!
18:41:53 <acozine> yeah, we can build on that
18:42:31 <dmsimard> briantist: a pseudo collection (or even an existing one) is not that far fetched considering the mechanism already exists
18:43:08 <dmsimard> we could have the exercise of thinking about what the collection could look like, if there are things other than docs that could go in there
18:43:30 <briantist> right, it should work (as long a collection with no plugins or modules doesn't accidentally breaks omething),  but it requires someone to do "releases" of it, and it will show up in the list of collections and such, so it does have some side effects
18:43:31 <dmsimard> if there turns out to be a better idea, that's cool too
18:44:25 <samccann> Yeah we would still need antsibull changes imo because we can't move the contributor stuff into the collection index imo.
18:44:35 <briantist> I will have to run in a minute or two, but good chat!
18:44:45 <dmsimard> I've built roles and some minor plugins for the purpose of building and testing the ansible package itself as well as these new community images -- was thinking whether these should go into a collection :p
18:45:01 <remindbot[m]> @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting
18:45:26 <dmsimard> samccann: makes sense
18:46:41 <samccann> ok thanks for the feedback everyon!
18:46:43 <dmsimard> samccann: I suggest we check with felixfontein who probably knows antsibull best and can tell us how this looks to him
18:46:45 <samccann> s/everyon/everyone/
18:46:54 <samccann> yep, thanks
18:49:40 <andersson007_> thanks everyone for voting on https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/67 and reviewing the PR, jillr thanks for helping with vote count!
18:50:14 <dmsimard> #topic open floor
18:50:40 <samccann> #info changelog guidance PR ready for review - https://github.com/ansible/ansible/pull/77040
18:51:11 <samccann> ^^ that was based on the changelog feedback community topic. I moved the results into a PR for review and merging. Thanks everyone for helping in that discussion!
18:51:51 <samccann> I mentioned this earlier but gonna toss it in an info...
18:51:55 <samccann> #info looking for feedback on whether or not to post community guides only to devel. See for a rough draft of the pros n cons. - https://hackmd.io/pEw-17IvQ-Ce1cBZG-pXQQ
18:52:01 <samccann> #undo
18:52:01 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: INFO by samccann at 18:51:55 : looking for feedback on whether or not to post community guides only to devel. See for a rough draft of the pros n cons. - https://hackmd.io/pEw-17IvQ-Ce1cBZG-pXQQ
18:52:15 <samccann> woopsie. I should turn it into a community-topic first.. sorry bout that!
18:54:12 <dmsimard> samccann: not a bad thing to share it ahead of time ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯
18:54:50 <gundalow> If there are any topics we want to share wider, would be good to put them in #social:ansible.com so they can go in tomorrow's edition of The Bullhorn
18:55:24 <acozine> share early, share often
18:55:36 <cybette> +1
18:56:29 <cyberpear> does that translate to #ansible-social on IRC?
18:56:32 <andersson007_> incremental sharing:)
18:56:38 <gundalow> cyberpear: Yup
18:57:10 <dmsimard> anything else for open floor before we close the meeting ?
18:58:26 <dmsimard> going once
18:59:10 <dmsimard> going twice
18:59:32 <dmsimard> thanks everyone for joining :)
18:59:36 <dmsimard> #endmeeting