18:00:09 <felixfontein> #startmeeting Ansible Community Meeting
18:00:09 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jan 12 18:00:09 2022 UTC.
18:00:09 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
18:00:09 <zodbot> The chair is felixfontein. Information about MeetBot at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot#Meeting_Functions.
18:00:09 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:09 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'ansible_community_meeting'
18:00:09 <felixfontein> #topic Agenda https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/539
18:00:09 <felixfontein> acozine andersson007_ baptistemm bcoca briantist cyberpear cybette dericcrago dmsimard felixfontein geerlingguy gundalow gwmngilfen ikhan_ jillr jtanner lmodemal misc nitzmahone resmo samccann tadeboro cidrblock thaumos zbr: ping!
18:00:13 <felixfontein> #info Agenda: https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/539 / Topics: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics
18:00:16 <felixfontein> #topic Updates
18:00:32 <cybette> o/
18:00:33 <andersson007_> o/ (partly here as am sitting with two kids alone today)
18:00:34 <acozine> o/
18:00:38 <jillr> o/
18:00:45 <felixfontein> #chair cybette andersson007_ acozine jillr
18:00:45 <zodbot> Current chairs: acozine andersson007_ cybette felixfontein jillr
18:02:36 <felixfontein> hmm, looks like a huge attendance today :)
18:03:07 <jillr> :)  successfully async maybe!
18:03:08 <acozine> a small but doughty band
18:03:27 <felixfontein> jillr: indeed!
18:04:00 <andersson007_> we could announce https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/51#issuecomment-1010982671 today and move the issue to Resolved on the board https://github.com/orgs/ansible-community/projects/2/views/5
18:04:00 <dmsimard> o/
18:04:03 <felixfontein> #info don't forget to vote on the open votes: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Aactive-vote
18:04:16 <felixfontein> andersson007_: sounds good
18:04:18 <felixfontein> #chair dmsimard
18:04:18 <zodbot> Current chairs: acozine andersson007_ cybette dmsimard felixfontein jillr
18:04:29 <dmsimard> #info Ansible 5.2.0 will be released sometime shortly after the meeting
18:04:32 <cybette> #info deadline for Bullhorn 42 content is tomorrow, as we're testing how feasible it is to have a weekly release cadence. Please share your news with newsbot in ansible-social channel/room by 20:00 UTC on 2022-01-13!
18:05:28 <felixfontein> #info https://github.com/ansible-community/github-docs-build contains some GHA actions and shared workflows for collection docs builds
18:06:51 <samccann> o/
18:06:58 <felixfontein> #chair samccann
18:06:58 <zodbot> Current chairs: acozine andersson007_ cybette dmsimard felixfontein jillr samccann
18:07:19 <dmsimard> #info There will be many talks about Ansible at the upcoming devconf and FOSDEM conferences, find them via https://devconfcz2022.sched.com/?searchstring=ansible and https://fosdem.org/2022/search/?q=ansible
18:08:34 <cybette> great one, thanks dmsimard !
18:09:18 <dmsimard> no more updates from me
18:10:37 <felixfontein> #info The parameter and return value tables on docs.ansible.com's devel docs are now responsive
18:10:42 <felixfontein> almost forgot that one :)
18:10:49 <jillr> \o/
18:11:09 <felixfontein> if you notice anything odd, please tell us :)
18:11:28 <cybette> nice one!
18:11:33 <felixfontein> about today: is there a topic someone wants to discuss?
18:11:34 <andersson007_> #info Please suggest possible names for the Changes Impacting Contributors repository in the topic https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/51. Deadline is Sunday, 12 Jan 2022.
18:12:04 <felixfontein> #undo
18:12:04 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: INFO by andersson007_ at 18:11:34 : Please suggest possible names for the Changes Impacting Contributors repository in the topic https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/51. Deadline is Sunday, 12 Jan 2022.
18:12:12 <felixfontein> andersson007_: that date is today, but today's not Sunday :)
18:12:26 <andersson007_> ah, sorry:)
18:12:32 <acozine> maybe `StuffYouShouldKnow` or `SYSK` for short?
18:12:33 <cybette> andersson007_:  sunday 12 Jan?
18:12:46 <andersson007_> #info Please suggest possible names for the Changes Impacting Contributors repository in the topic https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/51. Deadline is Sunday, 16 Jan 2022.
18:12:58 <felixfontein> acozine: nice one :)
18:13:01 <andersson007_> felixfontein: thanks:)
18:13:32 <felixfontein> how about something like collection-contributor-news ?
18:13:40 <andersson007_> the name which will be thumbed up most will win:)
18:13:52 <felixfontein> or if it is in gh.com/ansible-collections, without that prefix :)
18:14:26 <andersson007_> maybe changes-impacting-collections?
18:14:49 <felixfontein> changes-impacting-contributors?
18:15:02 <remindbot[m]> @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting
18:15:32 <andersson007_> i think it's for maintainers mostly:)
18:15:40 <andersson007_> so changes-impacting-maintainers?
18:15:53 <felixfontein> true
18:16:20 <acozine> sorry, the word nerd in me needs to yell "impact is a noun, not a verb"
18:16:28 <acozine> okay, I feel better now, carry on
18:16:39 <samccann> lol
18:16:53 <cybette> impactful-changes?
18:16:53 <felixfontein> isn't it both a verb and a noun?
18:17:00 <andersson007_> i think the changes impact maintainers and contributors in collections:)
18:17:15 <acozine> felixfontein: it is now . . . language being an ever-evolving thing
18:17:18 <dmsimard> hmm, with english as my second language I also didn't know that impact couldn't be used as a verb
18:17:19 <felixfontein> according to https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/impact it is both
18:17:23 <acozine> especially English
18:17:54 <acozine> yes, and I withdraw my comment
18:17:58 <felixfontein> acozine: ah, I didn't knew that. but yeah, that's a common feature of languages :)
18:18:07 <dmsimard> no worries :p
18:20:02 <felixfontein> since nobody seems to have a topic to discuss, maybe we can take a look at https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/52: "I'd like to contribute ansible-trace under ansible-collections"
18:20:26 <felixfontein> how should we proceed with this?
18:21:16 * dmsimard reads
18:21:29 * acozine reads the issue
18:21:45 <andersson007_> felixfontein: would you like to announce announce https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/51#issuecomment-1010982671 ?
18:22:10 <felixfontein> andersson007_: will do, resp. try not to forget :)
18:22:32 <andersson007_> 👍
18:22:51 <dmsimard> It seems the author has already made a collection available on galaxy: https://galaxy.ansible.com/mhansen/ansible_trace -- now, is it that he wants to move the repository under ansible-collections instead of https://github.com/mhansen/ansible-trace ?
18:22:53 <acozine> re: `ansible-trace` - it does seem like a useful tool
18:22:56 <felixfontein> #topic How to proceed with "I'd like to contribute ansible-trace under ansible-collections"
18:23:02 <felixfontein> #info https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/52
18:23:28 <felixfontein> (I only noticed now that the number of this issue is one next to the other issue we've been talking about today :) )
18:25:37 <dmsimard> I mean, we don't really gatekeep repositories from being under ansible-collections or ansible-community so I don't have an objection to move the repository there and have him set as maintainer if that is the question
18:25:43 <jillr> I gather the contributor's goal for having it under the org is visibility/adoption, are there other ways we could support them in that?  does it have to be in the GH org?
18:26:22 * gundalow waves
18:26:29 <jillr> I mainly wonder if it contributes to a precedent that collections must be in our GH org to have up-take
18:26:46 <jillr> or maybe a perception, rather than a precedent
18:26:55 <acozine> #chair gundalow
18:26:55 <zodbot> Current chairs: acozine andersson007_ cybette dmsimard felixfontein gundalow jillr samccann
18:27:17 <dmsimard> jillr: the precedent (I think) would be that collections under the community namespace (i.e community.general) are typically in the ansible-collections github org
18:27:31 <gundalow> Having collections under gh/ansible* means I can pay for it's CI (if need be), as well as being able to get others to step in as maintainers if someone isn't able to maintain anymore
18:27:47 <jillr> dmsimard: oh did I miss a comment in the issue about having it move namespaces?
18:28:00 <jillr> like to community.ansible-trace?
18:28:03 <jtanner> it also incurs a social responsibility for the org owners to fix CVEs in the repo
18:28:06 <acozine> what about adding the plugin to an existing collection? could we gain a new maintainer that way?
18:28:10 <dmsimard> jillr: I don't think but I am hand-wavey assuming here
18:28:30 <jillr> acozine: I was thinking that too, but I'm not sure where that would go except c.g
18:29:27 <andersson007_> acozine: how about community.general?:) felixfontein ?
18:29:33 <samccann> the requestor pointed out a handful of similar plugins in c.g, maybe those could be moved out to this new collection and this person could be the maintainer?
18:29:36 <dmsimard> yeah, if it's really just one self-contained callback plugin, I suppose it /could/ go in c.g
18:29:37 <acozine> jillr: yeah, I'm not sure either, but maybe we could carve out a new collection with some existing plugins from c.g and add this one in?
18:30:02 <remindbot[m]> @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting
18:30:18 <FelixFontein[m]> samccann: I guess it depends how active that person then is as a maintainer... if they stop doing something after some months, it's no good
18:30:29 <FelixFontein[m]> (in particular if we move other plugins there)
18:30:35 <acozine> something like `community.stats` or `community.performance` or something?
18:30:41 <andersson007_> i would avoid splitting c.g. more. With small collections the situation with mainainers could get even worse
18:31:49 <FelixFontein[m]> I would still like to split it up, but yeah, the maintainer problem is a big problem indeed
18:31:56 <andersson007_> there's currently a bunch of such (abandoned) collections.
18:31:59 <gundalow> Not puting anything else in c.general
18:32:08 <FelixFontein[m]> (my IRC connection seems somewhat dead, that's why I switched to matrix)
18:32:31 <FelixFontein[m]> (or extremely laggy... not clear to me what's the problem, I guess it's the IRC server I'm connected to)
18:32:47 * jillr has to multitask a bit, but is still here - just might be slow
18:32:54 <dmsimard> gundalow: there's been new additions to c.g over time, I don't think we've formalized whether we should stop that
18:33:13 <gundalow> acozine: I like your suggestion of `community.performance` (or debug or similar). Could be nice to have a place for other support scripts. I know in previous like jtanner had various new scripts
18:33:30 <samccann> Welcome to the Dark Side (matrix) Felix Fontein ... we have cookies!
18:33:42 <gundalow> dmsimard: sure, I'm been a little flippent. I wouldn't want to see any net-new useful stuff being added to community.general
18:33:48 <acozine> I would like to think that a narrowly defined small collection would be easier to recruit maintainers for
18:33:49 <FelixFontein[m]> dmsimard: we had a discussion on that, but never finished it... we stopped roughly a year ago because we had more pressing issues, and never came backt o it
18:33:54 <andersson007_> i guess people loose interest to contribute to small collections pretty fast, i.e. where no much activity
18:34:14 <andersson007_> i know several examples
18:34:31 <andersson007_> new mainainers have also lost interest pretty fast
18:35:24 <dmsimard> financial quarterly result jargon tends to include something along the lines of "past performance is not an indicator of future performance" but yeah... :P
18:35:49 <acozine> then maybe c.g is a good home for this?
18:35:50 <acozine> ah, that's too bad
18:36:49 <samccann> feels like we either accept possibly unmaintained collections over time, or we end up with c.g being too big and facing the same problem ansible/ansible had before we moved modules out
18:36:49 <andersson007_[m]> yeah, in c.g. stuff will be maintained
18:37:02 <gundalow> I'm -1 to adding it to c.general
18:37:23 <andersson007_[m]> gundalow: I'm speaking generally
18:37:39 <FelixFontein[m]> to be accepted in c.g it would need tests; besides that I don't mind it being added
18:37:42 <samccann> what does it take to 'maintain' a small collection? is it difficult?
18:37:48 <gundalow> I think either it's own collection or we come up with something like community.{performance_tools,debug_tools}
18:37:58 <FelixFontein[m]> gundalow: because of this specific plugin, or adding generally to c.g?
18:38:01 <acozine> I remember for a while we had a goal of "retire c.g and get everything in themed collections"
18:38:06 <FelixFontein[m]> (I think we really have to reboot that c.g discussion...)
18:38:09 <samccann> or is it just people don't come back after the initial joy of creating it when it's no longer active?
18:38:13 <acozine> are we now resigned to keeping c.g forever?
18:38:13 <gundalow> samccann: Once the collection is setup not much is needed to maintain it
18:38:47 <jillr> I feel less strongly about c.g and more interested in how can we help community feel like their collections are a valuable part of the ecosystem regardless of namespace/github org
18:40:43 <gundalow> Boring = good
18:40:43 <andersson007_[m]> samccann: it is boring:)
18:40:43 <andersson007_[m]> maintaining a small collection is just boring:) that's life
18:40:43 <andersson007_[m]> not only for me
18:40:43 <andersson007_[m]> as we can see
18:40:43 <FelixFontein[m]> acozine: we talked a lot about that, until when we stopped talking about it without coming to a conclusion :)
18:40:43 <acozine> heh, good to know my memory isn't going completely
18:40:45 <FelixFontein[m]> usually maintaining a small collection is more work per plugin than maintaining a larger collection
18:40:48 <gundalow> Thoughts on creating a new `community.{performance_tools,debug_tools}` collection for this and other useful debug scripts?
18:40:51 <FelixFontein[m]> y
18:40:58 <felixfon1ein> oh, looks lke IRC is back :)
18:41:09 <FelixFontein[m]> gundalow: main thought is: who is going to maintain it?
18:41:30 <andersson007_[m]> (i like how this not-compulsory-to-attend-with-async-vote meeting is going)
18:42:02 <FelixFontein[m]> andersson007_: me too!
18:42:11 <andersson007_[m]> and another question: will this maintainer be permanent / persistent long enough
18:42:25 <andersson007_[m]> Felix Fontein: :)
18:44:38 <acozine> I'm hearing both "small collections get boring because there's not much maintenance to be done" and also "we can't have small collections because nobody will maintain them" . . . which almost feels like a contradiction - is the problem summed up as "small collections are boring, so maintainers tend to drift away, and then when a problem comes along, nobody's around to fix it"?
18:45:01 <remindbot[m]> @cybette:ansible.im cyb-clock chimes every 15 minutes during the community meeting
18:45:49 <andersson007_[m]> experience says that there's a lot of energy / enthusiasm from original maintainers at the beginning but then a feeling that you alone appears
18:46:05 <acozine> jillr: i like the way you expressed that - maybe there are other mechanisms for raising the profile of collections . . . maybe we could have a Bullhorn section for `Collection Spotlight` and highlight a collection each month?
18:46:23 <FelixFontein[m]> acozine: I think that's a good way to sum it up
18:46:24 <andersson007_[m]> and it doesn't feel good - the feeling of being alone:)
18:47:05 <jillr> acozine: yeah, and generally help people understand that we're still here to help them with how to be a maintainer and part of the community
18:47:08 <andersson007_[m]> +1
18:47:08 <acozine> in other words, stick to our "nothing more goes into c.g" promise, but give collection maintainers visibility for smaller collections?
18:47:14 <jillr> they aren't alone, even if they manage their own repo
18:47:51 <dmsimard> acozine: I don't know about that being a promise, we haven't settled on that
18:48:18 <acozine> because the thing this person said was "I think this would be useful to others and I'd like to give back to the community" . . . and really all collections are available to the community
18:48:23 <acozine> but maybe it doesn't feel that way
18:48:50 <acozine> dmsimard: fair enough
18:49:20 <felixfontein> small collections usually make it harder getting your stuff reviewed
18:49:27 <andersson007_> +1000
18:49:28 <felixfontein> though also for larger ones it's not that simple
18:49:45 <dmsimard> it might be worth getting back to the author in the issue to clarify his expectations and how we might be able to help give it visibility if need be
18:49:59 <andersson007_> i'd been thinking of the review problem just before FelixFontein[m] mentioned it
18:50:34 <cybette_> dmsimard: +1
18:51:03 <felixfontein> does anyone wants to volunteer for what dmsimard mentioned? :)
18:51:29 <felixfontein> ok, I'll switch to another topic in 1 min
18:51:49 <felixfontein> (and very soon after that to open floor)
18:51:49 <samccann> the other option - they create the collection on galaxy, and we recommend the Bullhorn to get the word out.  so no promises that this one-plugin collection ever becomes part of Ansible package unless it's getting a lot of attention on Galaxy?
18:52:24 <andersson007_> FelixFontein[m]: we should not forget to announce the Changes impacting repo results:)
18:52:46 <dmsimard> felixfontein: I'll reply in the issue
18:52:47 <felixfontein> samccann: I like that. it would be good to allow to highlight other collections in a better way than just including them in the Ansible package (which is always growing and growing...)
18:52:59 <felixfontein> andersson007_: that's what I want to switch to ;)
18:53:04 <felixfontein> dmsimard: cool, thanks :)
18:53:05 <andersson007_> oh, since FelixFontein[m] appeared the auto complete suggests it first...
18:53:11 <andersson007_> felixfontein:
18:53:12 <felixfontein> #topic Voting result on: Repository instead of Changes impacting collection contributors & maintainers Issue
18:53:15 <felixfontein> #info https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/51#issuecomment-1010982671
18:53:18 <felixfontein> The vote on this issue concluded, the result is that we want a new repository for this and want to close the issue (choice Q1a), and we want to use issues in this new repository (choice Q2a)
18:53:22 <felixfontein> What's next is to decide how this repository should be named (and whether it should be in gh/ansible-community or gh/ansible-collections). Please post your ideas in https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/51 until Sunday (2022/01/15)!
18:53:36 <felixfontein> andersson007_: no problem ;) right now my matrix is lagging behind IRC, so I switched back ;)
18:54:06 * gundalow has to drop. Thanks all
18:54:14 <felixfontein> thanks gundalow! have a great evening!
18:54:42 <felixfontein> #topic open floor
18:54:44 <felixfontein> and last but not least ;-)
18:55:16 <bcoca> im impacting this conversation
18:55:25 <bcoca> MT
18:55:51 <samccann> heh
18:57:00 <felixfontein> :)
18:57:34 <acozine> `impacting` always makes me remember getting my wisdom teeth pulled - they were "impacted" (stuck under my jawbone because there was no space for them next to my other teeth)
18:57:45 <acozine> it's not a happy recollection
18:58:22 <felixfontein> I don't miss my wisdom teeths :)
18:58:40 <andersson007_> :)
18:58:44 <cybette> acozine:  I had impacted wisdom teeth as well! had all 4 removed together.... now no more wisdom :P
18:58:53 <acozine> heh
18:59:25 <felixfontein> I lost them in pairs of two, I didn't want to be unable to eat solid stuf :)
18:59:44 <bcoca> my wisdom teeth have grown enough to cause pain, but not enough for them to be removed
19:00:32 <felixfontein> #endmeeting