18:00:36 <felixfontein> #startmeeting Ansible Community Meeting
18:00:36 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed May 19 18:00:36 2021 UTC.
18:00:36 <zodbot> This meeting is logged and archived in a public location.
18:00:36 <zodbot> The chair is felixfontein. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:36 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:36 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'ansible_community_meeting'
18:00:36 <felixfontein> #topic Agenda https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/539
18:00:36 <felixfontein> abadger1999 acozine andersson007_ baptistemm bcoca briantist cyberpear cybette dericcrago dmsimard felixfontein geerlingguy gundalow gwmngilfen ikhan_ jillr jtanner lmodemal misc nitzmahone resmo samccann tadeboro cidrblock thaumos zbr: ping!
18:00:40 <felixfontein> #info Agenda: https://github.com/ansible/community/issues/539 / Topics: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics
18:00:43 <acozine> o/
18:00:43 <felixfontein> #topic Updates
18:00:45 <cybette> o/
18:00:46 <andersson007_> o/
18:00:49 <dmsimard> o/
18:00:50 <apple4ever> o/
18:00:53 <felixfontein> #chair acozine cybette andersson007_ dmsimard apple4ever
18:00:53 <zodbot> Current chairs: acozine andersson007_ apple4ever cybette dmsimard felixfontein
18:00:54 <abadger1999> Óla
18:00:56 <jillr> o/
18:00:57 <agaffney> felixfontein: irccloud will at least prompt you before doing it
18:01:03 <felixfontein> #chair abadger1999 jillr agaffney
18:01:03 <zodbot> Current chairs: abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cybette dmsimard felixfontein jillr
18:01:04 <cyberpear> o/
18:01:14 <felixfontein> #chair cyberpear
18:01:14 <zodbot> Current chairs: abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard felixfontein jillr
18:01:24 <relrod> o/
18:01:27 <sivel> .hello
18:01:27 <zodbot> sivel: (hello <an alias, 1 argument>) -- Alias for "hellomynameis $1".
18:01:32 <felixfontein> #chair relrod sivel
18:01:32 <zodbot> Current chairs: abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard felixfontein jillr relrod sivel
18:01:56 <sivel> now my pushover gets blown up by zodbot :)
18:02:04 <felixfontein> #info Ansible 4.0.0 has been released!
18:02:07 <samccann> o/
18:02:08 <felixfontein> :)
18:02:13 <felixfontein> #chair samccann
18:02:13 <zodbot> Current chairs: abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard felixfontein jillr relrod samccann sivel
18:02:28 <andersson007_> \o/
18:02:29 <tadeboro_> o/ (in read-only mode for cca 15 minutes because kiddos)
18:02:52 <felixfontein> #chair tadeboro_
18:02:52 <zodbot> Current chairs: abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard felixfontein jillr relrod samccann sivel tadeboro_
18:02:54 <resmo> o/
18:03:05 <felixfontein> #chair resmo
18:03:05 <zodbot> Current chairs: abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard felixfontein jillr relrod resmo samccann sivel tadeboro_
18:03:55 <andersson007_> if have an influx today to discuss the exodus
18:04:19 <dmsimard> any other updates before we move on ?
18:04:28 <lmodemal> o/
18:04:38 <felixfontein> #info community.general 3.1.0 has been released
18:04:48 <felixfontein> other than that, nothing I can think of :)
18:04:50 <acozine> if anybody saw the outage of the 2.9 docs . ..  it's fixed now
18:04:50 <felixfontein> #chair lmodemal
18:04:50 <zodbot> Current chairs: abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard felixfontein jillr lmodemal relrod resmo samccann sivel tadeboro_
18:05:10 <felixfontein> #info Ansible 2.9 docsite is now fixed
18:05:23 <samccann> phew
18:05:40 <felixfontein> that was caused by Jinja 3.0 in case anyone cares
18:06:25 <felixfontein> #topic Move from Freenode to somewhere else?
18:06:25 <felixfontein> #info Discussion: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/19
18:06:34 <samccann> hmm closer to bad requirements.txt files for the 2.9 docs problem
18:06:42 <felixfontein> today's main topic ;)
18:07:00 * samccann pulls up comfy chair and bag of popcorn
18:07:10 <felixfontein> :)
18:07:26 <felixfontein> does anyone not know what we're talking about, resp. *why* we're talking about it?
18:07:28 <apple4ever> Was wondering if that was going to be discussed
18:07:41 * markuman 🍿
18:07:47 <felixfontein> #chair markuman
18:07:47 <zodbot> Current chairs: abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard felixfontein jillr lmodemal markuman relrod resmo samccann sivel tadeboro_
18:07:47 <andersson007_> :)
18:08:06 <felixfontein> apple4ever: that topic kind of jumped in our face today ;)
18:08:16 * samccann steals markuman's 🍿
18:08:22 <andersson007_> heh
18:08:30 <jillr> convenient of it to happen for our regular meeting day
18:08:42 <felixfontein> indeed!
18:08:43 <dmsimard> Before talking about what we want to do, I think it's fair to say what we don't want to do
18:08:55 <felixfontein> not: switch to slack :)
18:09:01 <markuman> +1
18:09:01 <dmsimard> right, amongst other things
18:09:28 <felixfontein> from the comments and ealier discussions here today, it seems that something with an IRC bridge - or IRC itself - seems to be favoured by most
18:09:29 <dmsimard> We would like to keep a FOSS-friendly solution and slack is not that
18:09:53 <bcoca> i think its clear that slack/other proprietary is a no go for most
18:09:58 <abadger1999> Would anyone disagree with what dmsimard just stated?  (If not, we should #info it)
18:10:23 <felixfontein> VOTE: We would like to keep a FOSS-friendly solution (which excludes slack for example)
18:10:26 <felixfontein> +1
18:10:28 <dmsimard> +1
18:10:29 <bcoca> +10
18:10:29 <andersson007_> +1
18:10:29 <abadger1999> +1
18:10:34 <sivel> +1
18:10:35 <samccann> +1
18:10:37 <jillr> +1
18:10:37 <resmo> ++1
18:10:37 <markuman> +1
18:10:45 <lmodemal> +1
18:10:46 <agaffney> +1
18:10:51 <cybette> +1
18:10:56 <apple4ever> +!
18:10:58 <acozine> +1
18:11:02 <relrod> +1
18:11:03 <sivel> I mean I like slack, but I would hate to use it for a community like this
18:11:06 <tremble> +1
18:11:17 * bcoca smashes 'that was easy' button
18:11:34 <felixfontein> #agreed We would like to keep a FOSS-friendly solution (which excludes slack for example)
18:11:37 <felixfontein> #chair tremble
18:11:37 <zodbot> Current chairs: abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard felixfontein jillr lmodemal markuman relrod resmo samccann sivel tadeboro_ tremble
18:11:43 <felixfontein> (if I forgot to chair someone, please tell me :) )
18:11:46 <misc> what would FOOS-friendly mean ?
18:11:51 <misc> FOSS
18:12:01 <bcoca> misc: not proprietary system that requires closed source clients/servers
18:12:03 <agaffney> open protocol, network not controlled by a single company, etc.
18:12:12 <jillr> misc: another irc network, or something like matrix
18:12:30 <felixfontein> agaffney: 'network not controlled by a single company' - I wonder how many IRC networks are excluded by that
18:12:53 <bcoca> felixfontein: they were mostly volunteer and dontated servers and resources by several companies
18:13:05 <sivel> I guess it he meant protocol controlled by a single company :)
18:13:13 <bcoca> the problem with freenode became that the domain names ended up being owned ... links to full story everywhere
18:13:34 <bcoca> xmpp and irc not owned, aol IM protocol totally owned
18:13:43 <agaffney> felixfontein: that's fair. I more meant a single commercial entity vs. a not-for-profit
18:13:43 * bcoca searches for aol client
18:14:08 <felixfontein> bcoca: I recently read that aol still has dial-up customers
18:14:11 <dmsimard> With that vote out of the way, it leaves us with the four options currently laid out in the issue: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/19#issuecomment-844056193, summarized as: 1) libera.chat (freenode "fork") 2) irc.oftc.net 3) migrate to matrix 4) status quo (stay on freenode)
18:14:25 <sivel> With the irritation of matrix as it impacts actual IRC users, I'd prefer that matrix not be the source, as it stands it's infrequent now, since IRC is the source, and not a ton of people are using matrix
18:14:36 <bcoca> 3 is not a 'just this' issue, you can migrate to matrix and still share the room with irc
18:14:53 <dmsimard> bcoca: right, it is not mutually exclusive
18:15:07 <sivel> I'm confindent that a matrix bridge for libera will exist in the near future
18:15:11 <dmsimard> So we could go with #1 or #2 and still have #3
18:15:14 <apple4ever> I would say that 4 is not an option we should choose
18:15:36 <bcoca> after today's freenet spam on libera, 4 is off the table for me
18:15:37 <misc> I tend to share nirik point of view with clients, eg "full of future promise to be polite"
18:15:39 <cyberpear> I think best case is the domain gets turned back over to the now-resigned folks and we avoid a freenode-community split, but maybe the split be required to show the apparently-hostile actors that they can't takeover the network and have net remain a net w/ people in it
18:15:39 <agaffney> indeed, #4 should not even be an option that's on the table
18:15:52 <dmsimard> Should we have a vote to exclude #4 or is it safe to assume it is not something we are considering ?
18:15:54 <misc> (on matrix clients)
18:16:07 <bcoca> https://oftc.net/constitution/ <= info on oftc admin structure
18:16:11 <jillr> there's value in having on the list so we can say we all voted against it, but I'd agree with =1 that option
18:16:11 <felixfontein> dmsimard: I was about to ask that as well :)
18:16:18 <sivel> Also seems that most Red Hat related channels are moving to libera
18:16:20 <bcoca> misc: if using bridge, you can still use irc client
18:16:20 <markuman> when #4 is out. start with #1 or #2 asap and provide #3 later
18:16:22 <jillr> *-1 option 4
18:16:23 <misc> dmsimard: I would say #4 for now, but migrate in 1 week
18:16:23 <resmo> to be fair, freenode served us well for how many years?
18:16:24 * cyberpear runs into free IRCCloud server limit
18:16:34 <agaffney> cyberpear: with the bulk of the freenode staff now over at Libera, it seems unlikely that Freenode will survive this whole thing, even if everything gets turned back over
18:16:48 <bcoca> resmo: yes, and most of that staff left
18:16:56 <felixfontein> cyberpear: in which way?
18:17:02 <dmsimard> VOTE: We should stay on freenode (option #4)
18:17:03 <dmsimard> -1
18:17:04 <cyberpear> agaffney: I'm just hoping that at that point, freenode would point to the libera servers so old configs would "magically start working again"
18:17:10 <felixfontein> resmo: see the links in https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/19#issue-895369098
18:17:10 <abadger1999> The primary reason to have an official place for chatting is so that people can communicate with like minded people.  It feels like people are migrating off of freendoe en masse so I think (4) beccomes untenable.
18:17:11 <jillr> -1
18:17:14 <abadger1999> dmsimard: Hold on...
18:17:16 <eqrx> -1
18:17:17 <felixfontein> -1
18:17:19 <abadger1999> There is one ewrinkle
18:17:22 <markuman> -1
18:17:26 <abadger1999> Long term vs short term
18:17:37 <abadger1999> I'm -1 to long term.
18:17:39 <cyberpear> +0 I'd like to wait for other options become more solid before voting to abandon freenode
18:17:44 <abadger1999> Not quite sure about short term
18:17:51 <resmo> -1
18:17:55 <apple4ever> -1
18:17:58 <dmsimard> abadger1999: right, this is not an immediate thing
18:18:01 <bcoca> short term we use what we can, till we decide a permanent home
18:18:06 <andersson007_> -1 long term
18:18:07 <misc> yeah, freenode long term do not seems viable if the situation keep as is
18:18:18 <sivel> short term I imagine ansible staff will co-habitate freenode and whatever the future is
18:18:21 <bcoca> permanent home will be reflected in the doc and community sites
18:18:23 <mmercer-nothere> cyberpear:  given that the actual resignation letters from many of the staff included suggestions like 'unset your email address, change your password, and drop your acct'.....  anything to do with freenode seems ill fated
18:18:34 <jillr> yeah I'm looking at today as the first of probably several conversations about long term plans, nothing happening immediately
18:18:37 <cybette> -1 long term
18:18:39 <gundalow> -1 longterm (unless there are massive changes in current leadership/governance)
18:18:41 <misc> short term (eg 1 or 2 week, nothing more), I think freenode is the least disruptive (for us, and for whatever we decide)
18:18:43 <dmsimard> cyberpear: it is mostly a matter of trust broken by way of how the new freenode leadership has taken control
18:18:43 <felixfontein> #chair mmercer-nothere
18:18:43 <zodbot> Current chairs: abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard felixfontein jillr lmodemal markuman mmercer-nothere relrod resmo samccann sivel tadeboro_ tremble
18:19:04 <cyberpear> mmercer-nothere: has someone posted instructions for that?
18:19:21 <mmercer-nothere> cyberpear it was included in the notice on kline.sh
18:19:29 <acozine> https://www.kline.sh/
18:19:29 <sivel> cyberpear: yes, I believe on kline.sh
18:19:33 <felixfontein> cyberpear: there were IRC-wide notices and a ChanServe quit message suggesting that IIRC
18:19:59 <bcoca> https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af497409 <= summary of freenode drama with links to all the sites/sides
18:19:59 <gundalow> felixfontein: sorry I'm late to the party, could I have a chair?
18:20:00 <mmercer-nothere> and yes, i also saw several chanserv/nickserv messages related to similar
18:20:05 <dmsimard> #chair gundalow
18:20:05 <zodbot> Current chairs: abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard felixfontein gundalow jillr lmodemal markuman mmercer-nothere relrod resmo samccann sivel tadeboro_ tremble
18:20:19 <felixfontein> today I got:
18:20:19 <felixfontein> 09:54 -!- mquin [~mquin@freenode/staff/mquin] has quit [Killed (grumble (My fellow staff so-called 'friends' are about to hand over account data to a non-staff member. If you care about your data, drop your NickServ account NOW before that happens.))]
18:20:24 <felixfontein> 09:54 -!- ChanServ [ChanServ@services.] has quit [Killed (grumble (My fellow staff so-called 'friends' are about to hand over account data to a non-staff member. If you care about your data, drop your NickServ account NOW before that happens.))]
18:20:28 <felixfontein> 14:05 -jess(jess@freenode/staff/jess)- [Global Notice] Hi all. It feels like my moral responsibility to inform all users that administrative control of freenode and its user data will soon change hands, and I will be resigning from freenode staff effective immediately. It's been an honour to help you all.
18:21:33 * andersson007_ dropping account
18:21:33 <bcoca> gundalow: so consensus on 1) we want foss solution  and 4) not staying on fnode long term
18:21:50 <agaffney> between OFTC and Libera, where does it seem like the bulk of the opensource projects are moving? Libera is obviously the spiritual successor to Freenode
18:21:54 <gundalow> bcoca: thanks for the summary
18:22:01 <bcoca> irc itself seems to be the favored solution (matrix integration non withstanding)
18:22:06 <dmsimard> agaffney: I have started documenting where projects are going in https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/19#issuecomment-844204319
18:22:27 <dmsimard> some are moving to libera (such as centos), some are moving to oftc
18:22:29 <sivel> freenode, particularly the staff that have run it, have been great to us, and have for the whole of the FOSS community.  I'd put my backing behind them and libera as the right place
18:22:34 <felixfontein> OFTC has the advantage of being more stable right now (since it already has been established)
18:22:39 <abadger1999> agaffney: I think it's too early to tell.
18:22:47 <abadger1999> felixfontein: Yeah.
18:22:50 <bcoca> for now i would vote for oftc, just because its working now, libera, maybe in a few weeks once they finish stablizing
18:22:53 <felixfontein> but that can change quickly once Libera is older than a day ;)
18:23:04 <dmsimard> bcoca: I would rather avoid two moves
18:23:08 <misc> well, but do we want 2 migrations ?
18:23:09 <abadger1999> Another thing to think about is e don't know what Fedora's plans are and we rely on zodbot which Fedora infrastructure runs
18:23:10 <dmsimard> if we pick one, we stick with it
18:23:11 <sivel> and as I mentioned earlier, it seems that libera is where many of the Red Hat related stuff is moving
18:23:25 <bcoca> abadger1999: wont zoidbot work with any irc server?
18:23:51 <dmsimard> bcoca: probably but would fedora run it on N servers, though ?
18:23:54 <jillr> do we need to pick one of the two today, or can today be "we agree it should be one of these two and we will observe/talk to other communities and pick one over the next N days"?
18:24:02 <resmo> ceph is on oftc
18:24:13 <abadger1999> bcoca: We don't run zodbot.
18:24:19 <andersson007_> should we wait with the migration until the contributor summit finished? (having everything prepared)
18:24:19 <jillr> like, there's clearly fact gathering to do.  what are the things we need to know to make a decision?
18:24:24 <mmercer-nothere> I think *most* of the projects will move to libera, since libera was specifically called out on kline.sh and the resignation letters
18:24:30 <markuman> use both and bridge with matrix
18:24:35 * markuman duck and cover
18:24:38 <abadger1999> So even though it will work with any, unless we want to start supporting more services, we need to consider that
18:24:40 <dmsimard> jillr: I don't think we need to absolutely commit to make a move today. We should agree on a direction.
18:24:41 <sivel> jillr: I suppose it depends on how rapidly freenode devolves. And the urging that people leave freenode and delete their data asap
18:24:50 <gundalow> I'm not expecting, and infact don't want us, to make a decision today
18:24:50 <jillr> sivel: valid
18:24:51 <Tas-sos> Hell o/
18:25:00 <misc> abadger1999: but we could ask to have zodbot on multiple network, no ?
18:25:05 <gundalow> #chair Tas-sos
18:25:05 <zodbot> Current chairs: Tas-sos abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard felixfontein gundalow jillr lmodemal markuman mmercer-nothere relrod resmo samccann sivel tadeboro_ tremble
18:25:06 <agaffney> the Ansible channels are the only thing still keeping me on Freenode
18:25:11 <misc> gundalow: so should we make a decision to not decide ?
18:25:19 <Tas-sos> You discuss to movee from IRC to another chanell ??  :o
18:25:22 <gundalow> misc: I've already made that decision :)
18:25:33 <resmo> agaffney, same counts for me
18:25:35 <dmsimard> Tas-sos: https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/19
18:25:49 <gundalow> I'm happy with the outcome of the two votes so far
18:25:50 <samccann> do we need a 'temporary' home off freenode for the people already dropping from it because of said data worries etc?
18:25:52 <felixfontein> Tas-sos: yes, though more likely to another IRC network
18:26:07 <bcoca> ok, so it seems we have deceded at least to do IRC, now its just 'which irc network' ?
18:26:16 <sivel> In my opinion we should decide where our future home is today
18:26:24 <sivel> whether we start moving there today, is another discussion
18:26:25 <mmercer-nothere> agaffney, bcoca: but, given that RH appears to be steering toward libera, does that not 'push' ansible to libera as well ?
18:26:30 <dmsimard> samccann: there is already 50 people in #ansible on libera but it doesn't have our "blessing" as official yet
18:26:31 <misc> samccann: people can still be here without a registered account
18:26:32 <relrod> sivel++
18:26:35 <zodbot> relrod: Karma for sivel changed to 1 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
18:26:44 <misc> but I guess that mean we should relax channel restriction
18:26:51 <bcoca> mmercer-nothere: no, ibm uses mostly lotus notes .. and they own RH .. not seeing us using notes anytime soon
18:26:52 <abadger1999> We don't have enough information to decide where our future home will be.
18:26:57 <abadger1999> Unless it's matrix.org
18:27:00 <apple4ever> That's how I feel
18:27:05 <Tas-sos> Yes, I disagree with that, I like that the Ansible community uses IRC for communication and works great!
18:27:14 <abadger1999> because then it won't matter what irc server we eventually tell people to connect to us via.
18:27:15 <apple4ever> We should move, but where we need more information
18:27:22 <bcoca> i also have #ansbile at gamesurge.net (there were 5 people there yesterday, alone today)
18:27:32 <Tas-sos> What happened guys?
18:27:40 <mmercer-nothere> what is the concern with matrix?  the time to setup or. ?
18:27:44 <dmsimard> Tas-sos: context is in the first comment of the issue I linked you
18:27:49 <abadger1999> resmo: Unless you have information on which irc service Fedora is going to move to?
18:27:51 <dmsimard> mmercer-nothere: matrix is not mutually exclusive with IRC
18:27:51 <Tas-sos> Why so much intensity and so much haste?
18:27:59 <agaffney> Tas-sos: hostile-ish takeover of Freenode and most of the staff resigned
18:28:09 <bcoca> abadger1999:  been trying to set that up in matrix, seems #ansbile-devel was setup that way but its now broken(pointing at feenode bridge)
18:28:13 <misc> (and people keep asking about it)
18:28:21 <resmo> abadger1999, me? not related to fedora in any way
18:28:30 <gundalow> oooooooooooooook
18:28:33 <abadger1999> resmo: sorry...   /me needs to hit three characters before TAB
18:28:34 <mmercer-nothere> dmsimard -- true;  i think matrix is the long term strategy honestly, with bridging to irc
18:28:40 <gundalow> So what do we want to get from this current topic
18:28:50 <abadger1999> relrod: Unless you have information on which irc service Fedora is going to move to?
18:28:56 <Tas-sos> agaffney: Thank for the bad news! O
18:29:19 <dmsimard> gundalow: I wanted to get the "easy" votes/questions out of the way to help shape the direction
18:29:24 <Tas-sos> Oh really? And what is the future of the freenode ?
18:29:37 <agaffney> Tas-sos: that is currently a big unknown
18:29:49 <gundalow> dmsimard: sounds good, are their any other "easy" polls left?
18:29:50 <dmsimard> gundalow: We agreed 1) we want a FOSS friendly solution (i.e, not slack), 2) we don't want to stick on freenode long term
18:30:15 <gundalow> maybe Must we continue to have an IRC presence (either dedicated or bridged)?
18:30:25 <agaffney> it seems to me that a move to something not-IRC on short notice would be a bad idea
18:30:27 <bcoca> gundalow: i think that is clear
18:30:29 <felixfontein> another potentially easy vote: do we want to decide for a new (at least mid-term) home now, or during the next days/weeks?
18:30:30 <sivel> #rhel and #centos have both moved to libera, I'd bet on #fedora going as well
18:30:33 <cyberpear> I'd say give it a week at least to settle before choosing any future home.
18:30:36 <cybette> cyb-clock chimes: 30 minutes into the meeting!
18:30:38 <relrod> abadger1999: https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/371 - but they were already moving to matrix before this.
18:30:41 <abadger1999> Yeah, that's probably going to be an easy, unanimous vote ;-)
18:30:42 <dmsimard> gundalow: I think the answer is yes but we can formalize it
18:31:02 <abadger1999> relrod: Yeah.  and that ticket was planning to keep freenod presence.  I think today's events probably chanfe that.
18:31:05 <gundalow> dmsimard: yup, I'd be particuarly interested if there are any -1 or +0 from thisgroup
18:31:08 <dmsimard> I see matrix as an "add on" that can come later
18:31:26 <bcoca> dmsimard: trying to figure out config to confirm that
18:31:29 <relrod> abadger1999: that ticket is from today
18:31:32 <gundalow> These channels on Freenode aren't going anywhere (in the short term at least)
18:31:37 <mmercer-nothere> +1 irc with eventual +1 matrix bridge
18:31:40 <bcoca> and might be good solution for those 'alergic' to irc
18:31:49 <felixfontein> gundalow: hopefully :)
18:32:06 <cyberpear> definitely should keep IRC as first class citizen, IMO
18:32:11 <mmercer-nothere> agreed
18:32:13 <dmsimard> VOTE: Ansible should maintain an official presence on an IRC network
18:32:17 <eqrx> I would love to move to matrix
18:32:18 <felixfontein> +1
18:32:19 <mmercer-nothere> +1
18:32:20 <agaffney> +1
18:32:21 <markuman> +1
18:32:23 <eqrx> (+1)
18:32:25 <resmo> +1
18:32:25 <andersson007_> +1
18:32:25 <bcoca> +1
18:32:26 <cyberpear> +1
18:32:27 <jillr> +1
18:32:29 <relrod> +1
18:32:30 <gundalow> +1
18:32:30 <samccann> +1
18:32:33 <acozine> +1
18:32:34 <sivel> +1
18:32:37 <lmodemal> +1
18:32:39 <bcoca> eqrx: you probably can even if 'ansible' does not use it as main
18:32:39 <gundalow> #chair
18:32:39 <zodbot> Current chairs: Tas-sos abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard felixfontein gundalow jillr lmodemal markuman mmercer-nothere relrod resmo samccann sivel tadeboro_ tremble
18:32:40 <Fugu_> +1
18:32:43 <gundalow> voting time
18:32:50 <tadeboro_> +1
18:32:56 <misc> +1
18:32:56 <sivel> eqrx: we do have a bridge for matrix now
18:32:57 <abadger1999> VOTE: +1
18:33:07 <Tas-sos> +1 for IRC
18:33:09 <gundalow> #chair Fugu_ eqrx
18:33:09 <zodbot> Current chairs: Fugu_ Tas-sos abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard eqrx felixfontein gundalow jillr lmodemal markuman mmercer-nothere relrod resmo samccann sivel tadeboro_ tremble
18:33:12 <cybette> +1
18:33:36 <abadger1999> relrod: Ah sorry, I thought it was the future of fedora real time chat ticket.
18:33:48 <Fugu_> gundalow: thnx, do i need to vote again for the bot to register? (unfamiliar with zodbot :) )
18:34:09 <misc> the bot do not count
18:34:36 <misc> if we had a more formal vote, we would surely also have more formal rules on who can vote I guess
18:34:41 <felixfontein> if basically everyone writes +1 we don't count ;)
18:34:42 <maxamillion> +1 to maintaining an IRC presence
18:34:52 <felixfontein> #chair maxamillion
18:34:52 <zodbot> Current chairs: Fugu_ Tas-sos abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard eqrx felixfontein gundalow jillr lmodemal markuman maxamillion mmercer-nothere relrod resmo samccann sivel tadeboro_ tremble
18:35:06 <maxamillion> bridge to whatever the deuce everyone wants (matrix or otherwise) but irc please
18:35:07 <felixfontein> #agreed Ansible should maintain an official presence on an IRC network
18:35:15 <Tas-sos> we cannot use some alternative channel? For example OFTC ?
18:35:18 <relrod> abadger1999: notably, some Fedora folks are already on libera. The fedora freenode GCs already have control of #fedora on libera, etc.
18:35:20 <dmsimard> Ok, with the easy questions out of the way, it currently leaves us with two options that have so far been mentioned: 1) irc.oftc.net and 2) libera.chat -- what approach should we take to decide ? Should we keep an eye out on communities and follow the herd ? Should we even take both and bridge them ?
18:35:23 <abadger1999> relrod: Looks like the ticket shows that Fedora is going to libera.chat ?
18:35:29 <sivel> Tas-sos: that is what we are figuring out
18:35:41 <relrod> abadger1999: I think it's not finalized yet, but it's a contender and there's already a bit of presence there.
18:35:52 <Tas-sos> sivel: thank you!
18:35:57 <misc> dmsimard: I would say "wait 1 week", "no bridge"
18:36:14 <mmercer-nothere> dmsimard given we are already talking about bridging anyway -- bridge both and add matrix -- total coverage.
18:36:29 <bcoca> im fine waiting a week, i think it snot good to move to libera.chat 'right now' since they are literally in the middle of a move
18:36:31 <abadger1999> misc: We have formal rules on how votes are counted but that really only comes into play if there's something controversial.
18:36:36 <cyberpear> seems bridging is something IRC should handle natively?
18:36:45 <dmsimard> cyberpear: it's not
18:36:48 <misc> cause bridges between 2 irc network seems like a bad idea for moderation, etc :/
18:36:51 <bcoca> cyberpear: it does,  mostly thinking matrix bridging
18:36:54 <webmind> +1 to maintaining an IRC presence
18:36:55 <dmsimard> cyberpear: requires software to bridge
18:37:14 <gundalow> libera.chat doesn't today support Matrix bridging, though I believe it's on the cards. No ETA. The network doesn't exist yesterday
18:37:36 <jillr> +1 waiting a week, I don't love the idea of bridging but I'm open to hearing more details of how we'd manage it?
18:38:05 <maxamillion> +1 for waiting a week, libera.chat needs some time to settle
18:38:07 <gundalow> I'm trying not to just jump to the end, though is the final question "Poll: IRC+Matrix"?
18:38:09 <agaffney> I just dislike the idea of hanging around on freenode with a "malicious" party having full admin access to the network
18:38:19 <felixfontein> I'm happy with waiting a few days / a week, to give libera.chat some time to stabilize
18:38:39 <mmercer-nothere> gundalow:  Vote +1 IRC+Matrix
18:38:53 <abadger1999> No, I don't think so.
18:38:53 <gundalow> agaffney: I don't like it either, though do you believe there is anything bad that could happen?
18:38:54 <gundalow> All code is done via GitHub
18:38:59 <felixfontein> gundalow: is IRC the 'source of truth', or matrix?
18:39:02 <cyberpear> several times, I've not joined a community that wasn't on freenode because the extra hassle of joining another server
18:39:06 <misc> agaffney: I kinda feel that "malicious" is a exageration,  and I doubt that something evil is going to happen
18:39:12 <gundalow> felixfontein: I think that would be a follow up question
18:39:37 <abadger1999> There's multiple ways to do matrix and irc and I think sivel is advocating for the opposite of what (for example) gsutclif has been advocating. (and what Fedora is going to do)
18:39:42 <webmind> I'd prefer moving sooner than later, but no preference for oftc vs libera
18:39:44 <misc> (and the answer from andrew lee about christell departure also make me think there is a maybe not just one side of the story)
18:39:46 <abadger1999> (I'd be okay with either, though)
18:39:48 <gundalow> (though I'd need someone with more knowledge to explain the four different types of rooms we could have)
18:39:54 <misc> (as does the whole "leak" of a draft :/ )
18:39:56 <felixfontein> gundalow: we could also have a three-way vote: a) IRC (source of truth) with bridge to matrix, b) matrix (source of truth) with bridge to IRC, c) something else
18:39:57 <resmo> webmind, +1
18:40:25 <agaffney> misc: I put it in quotes for a reason, but the people now in charge definitely don't have the community's interest at heart
18:40:32 <gundalow> felixfontein: maybe, if people understand the pros + cons of `a` vs `b` there.
18:40:43 <sivel> It doesn't really sound like fedora really trusts matrix yet, but it's a subset of opinions: https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/discussion-thread-for-future-of-fedora-irc/29953/3
18:40:46 <acozine> for those of us who don't already know what matrix is or how it functions, is there a quick resource you could point to?
18:40:55 <agaffney> gundalow: I have no particular concern, but if the now-resigned freenode staff is concerned, I feel we should be, too
18:41:04 * resmo afk for 10min -> kids
18:41:05 <webmind> The ddos and spam attacks on libera.chat don't give me a warm feeling about freenode
18:41:25 <misc> assuming this came from freenode and not just random people trolling for fun
18:41:34 <cyberpear> I share misc skepticism
18:41:39 <gundalow> On my moon-on-a-stick-and-a-pony is to be to have the same chat system that we use for day-to-day to be used for Contributors Summit (ie with Video & multiplayer-notepad (Etherpad/hackmd/etc)
18:41:42 <bcoca> misc:  if all the volunteer doctors and nurses that were 90%  of the hospital staff leave in horror of new mangement ... take you kidney elsewhere
18:41:53 <abadger1999> sivel: mattdm is the FPL and been on the meeting video chats, so IIRC the status is that they're going to test matrix but unless something pops up, matrix will be their source of truth with irc for legacy reasons.
18:42:03 <webmind> misc: sure possible, but seems like a big coincidence
18:42:07 <mmercer-nothere> misc: there is actually more to the andrew situation than what there appears to be.  ALee did the same thing to another network a few years ago...  it's been largely forgotten by now, but this isnt the first time hes been involved in a hostile irc network takeover
18:42:11 <cyberpear> I'd say keep IRC primary.
18:42:15 <abadger1999> ie: people like you and me.
18:42:30 <relrod> sivel: yeah. afaik Fedora's "official" long term plan is to switch to matrix, but it's a WIP.
18:42:30 <webmind> either way, I'm not willing to stay :)
18:42:41 <misc> bcoca: true, but then, should we go where the people go or should we go to a 3rd hospital is the question
18:42:51 <bcoca> that is current debate
18:43:07 <webmind> cyberpear: irc primary with matrix extra sounds nice, don't feel strong though
18:43:09 <agaffney> are there any other viable choices for IRC networks than Libera and OFTC?
18:43:23 <mmercer-nothere> is rizon still around/active ?
18:43:24 <felixfontein> let's have two votes: 1) IRC+matrix, 2) timeframe for move (today, 2-3 days, week, something else). does that sound good?
18:43:29 <bcoca> i trust oftc, seems well run and has all ducks in row .. libera is a rush job and the staff was same one that let the takeover happen here
18:43:44 <misc> felixfontein: +1 for the vote proposal
18:43:45 <webmind> felixfontein: does (1) have implications?
18:43:47 <mmercer-nothere> its the only one i can think of that would have had a large presence/support, but i havent checked in a few years if its even active anymore
18:43:55 <webmind> felixfontein: libera doesn't do matrix -yet-
18:44:01 <dmsimard> I can vouch for oftc which has a good track record and has hosted communities like ceph and debian for a long time
18:44:06 <cyberpear> bcoca++ also a reason not to make a snap decision
18:44:18 <acozine> can someone fill me in on what matrix is, why it would be good to have, and what making it "primary" or "secondary" means?
18:44:19 <felixfontein> webmind: I think libera will have matrix bridge soon, so it shouldn't exclude libera
18:44:28 <mmercer-nothere> bcoca -- not quite ---  most of the *staff* had nothing to do with the takeover.  It was all on C
18:44:30 <bcoca> cyberpear: as i said, we've decided almost eveyrthing else already, can wait 1 week to do final destination reassesment
18:44:32 <webmind> felixfontein: I'm in favour of the votes then :)
18:44:44 <misc> +1 for 1 week
18:44:47 <abadger1999> acozine: It's an open protocol-chat and group chat technology with open source clients and servers.  It aims to be an open source answer to slack, telegram, hangouts, etc.  It can "bridge" to other protocols like IRC, but there's some friction when features of matrix aren't supported by the other protocol (IRC has shorter line lengths than matrix, for intsance.)
18:44:53 <webmind> staff I think pretty much tried fighting it with what they had
18:45:01 <bcoca> mmercer-nothere: the staff had not forced an organizaation in a way that made that impossible or difficult
18:45:27 <bcoca> mmercer-nothere: they are highly competent on tech side, having libera mostly up already is great proof of that
18:45:28 <gundalow> So. I don't normally do this, though I'm going to set a week minimum before we officially move anything major to let the dust settle
18:45:35 <bcoca> but when it comes to setting up legal org ....
18:45:37 <felixfontein> VOTE: Do we want IRC + matrix? (-1 = we something else; and +1 does not say which will be the 'source of truth')
18:45:40 <felixfontein> #chair
18:45:40 <zodbot> Current chairs: Fugu_ Tas-sos abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard eqrx felixfontein gundalow jillr lmodemal markuman maxamillion mmercer-nothere relrod resmo samccann sivel tadeboro_ tremble
18:45:48 <gundalow> +1
18:45:50 <mmercer-nothere> mmm, yeah, looking at it from that stance, sure.  but for the most part, the staff was literally *volunteers*, not paid as part of an employer organization
18:45:50 <felixfontein> +1
18:45:52 <mmercer-nothere> +1
18:45:52 <sivel> +1
18:45:52 <jillr> +1
18:45:53 <acozine> abadger1999: thanks! is "matrix" the analog of "IRC" or the analog of "freenode IRC"?
18:45:55 <webmind> +1 on IRC + matrix
18:45:58 <tadeboro_> +1
18:45:58 <agaffney> gundalow: what is waiting a week going to gain us?
18:46:02 <abadger1999> +1
18:46:04 <andersson007_> +1
18:46:04 <agaffney> +1
18:46:07 <relrod> +1
18:46:08 <samccann> +1
18:46:09 <eqrx> +1
18:46:10 <Fugu_> +1
18:46:13 <dmsimard> +1
18:46:16 <lmodemal> +1
18:46:20 <misc> +1
18:46:23 <bcoca> +1
18:46:23 <dmsimard> agaffney: more data on where projects are going and whether libera is going to stand the test of time
18:46:25 <markuman> +1
18:46:29 <felixfontein> agaffney: mainly giving libera time to get more stable, and to see what others are doing
18:46:31 <sivel> acozine: it's a chat service independent of IRC, with bridges to common IRC networks
18:46:32 <cybette> +1
18:46:32 <cyberpear> +1 on IRC.  whether there's matrix also I don't care
18:46:33 <abadger1999> agaffney: Well... for one, having an idea of how long until we could have zodbot to manage our meetings.
18:46:33 <bcoca> acozine:  https://app.element.io/ <= web front end to matrix so you can check it out
18:46:41 <misc> agaffney: and more time for libera to deal with the rush of people coming as well
18:46:43 <gundalow> agaffney: Lets us get everything setup and have docs & communication setup. Also see if all the other related projects decide to move somewhere else
18:46:56 <Tas-sos> +1  IRC + Matrix ( first IRC )
18:47:05 <Tas-sos> +1  IRC + Matrix ( first IRC )
18:47:10 <misc> having been in a fork, dealing with everybody coming is kinda stressful, so if we can avoid putting pressure on volunteer, that would be better
18:47:16 <Tas-sos> +1
18:47:24 <maxamillion> +1 matrix + IRC
18:47:36 <felixfontein> #agreed We want IRC + matrix (and not something else)
18:47:41 <bcoca> +1 irc > matrix
18:47:57 * misc is going to say "xmpp", because he know bcoca  love xml
18:47:58 * bcoca stares at redrocket and mattermost
18:48:06 <felixfontein> VOTE: do we want to a) decide today, b) decide in the next 2-3 days, c) decide in a week, d) decide even further in the future?
18:48:09 <felixfontein> #chair
18:48:09 <zodbot> Current chairs: Fugu_ Tas-sos abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard eqrx felixfontein gundalow jillr lmodemal markuman maxamillion mmercer-nothere relrod resmo samccann sivel tadeboro_ tremble
18:48:12 <dmsimard> From a technical (or contingency) standpoint, I have registered Ansible namespace channels on irc.oftc.net and it would be nice to have someone take care of that on libera
18:48:16 <bcoca> misc: actually have run an ejabberd server for years, fine with that
18:48:18 <misc> +1 for C
18:48:19 <cyberpear> c or d
18:48:20 <felixfontein> (just write letter with the option you prefer)
18:48:30 <bcoca> xml is good for cmoputers to talk to each other, just humans should never have to read or write it
18:48:37 <gundalow> felixfontein: Not sure if we can do that, since we don't know which flavour of "with Matrix" we want yet
18:48:37 <webmind> a or b
18:48:41 <tremble> C
18:48:42 <agaffney> if we want a week to decide, how long would it actually take to do the move after that decision is made?
18:48:43 <apple4ever> c
18:48:47 <eqrx> b
18:48:48 <markuman> +1 b
18:48:51 <sivel> A
18:48:51 <gundalow> felixfontein: oh, decide what
18:48:53 <mmercer-nothere> dmsimard someone already did on libera, i just dunno who
18:48:54 <agaffney> does waiting a week mean 2-3 weeks for an actual move?
18:48:58 <bcoca> gundalow: destination server
18:49:02 <misc> agaffney: I guess we have 1 week to find out :p
18:49:09 <jillr> b or c
18:49:21 <cybette> c
18:49:22 <dmsimard> agaffney: "moving" is instantaneous in the sense that people are already hanging out on both oftc and libera
18:49:23 <misc> but I guess the tasks would be: fix the doc
18:49:24 <bcoca> mmercer-nothere: a bunch of ansible team have
18:49:25 <misc> announce it
18:49:26 <samccann> b or c
18:49:26 <lmodemal> b or c
18:49:32 <abadger1999> I wantrevisit in one week.
18:49:34 <misc> make sure we have the channel ready
18:49:38 <misc> deal with the bots
18:49:43 <dmsimard> b or c, it depends on if new concerning information/allegations comes out
18:49:46 <Fugu_> b
18:49:47 <bcoca> agaffney, dmsimard 'moving' means updating all docsites and making public announcements
18:49:50 <felixfontein> b or c
18:49:57 * resmo re
18:49:58 <agaffney> B or C
18:49:59 <maxamillion> C
18:50:00 <bcoca> getting 'ansible' people registered as ops, shields, etc
18:50:03 <mmercer-nothere> B or C
18:50:10 <andersson007_> c
18:50:12 <tadeboro_> a (maybe b)
18:50:14 <misc> and making sure the destination can scale
18:50:29 <andersson007_> okay B or C
18:50:33 <bcoca> for NOW i suspect many of us are just goint to use multiple servers till 'shoe drops' or decision is made
18:50:41 <tremble> It feels like getting prepped on libera *and* oftc would be prudent, but moving would be rash
18:50:42 <abadger1999> We'll know more about whether libera is stable and we may know a timeframe for when zodbot will appear on (and on which) other network.
18:50:43 * bcoca checks discord
18:50:47 <resmo> a
18:50:49 <misc> (which mean that I guess someone should watch libera and see if it work or not, just hanging on some irc channel should be good)
18:50:51 <bcoca> tremble: we did already
18:50:57 <gundalow> #info I'm currently working with libera.chat team to get Ansible registered
18:51:14 <dmsimard> Can someone take the action of following up with Fedora as to where zodbot will/can run ?
18:51:20 <bcoca> misc: been doing that on 3 diff servers since yesterday
18:51:23 <misc> dmsimard: I can
18:51:35 <bcoca> misc: thankx!
18:51:36 <dmsimard> misc: thank you
18:51:48 <misc> #action misc look over zodbot
18:51:53 * misc is not chair
18:52:04 <gundalow> #chair misc
18:52:04 <zodbot> Current chairs: Fugu_ Tas-sos abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard eqrx felixfontein gundalow jillr lmodemal markuman maxamillion misc mmercer-nothere relrod resmo samccann sivel tadeboro_ tremble
18:52:07 <misc> #action misc look over zodbot
18:52:09 <dmsimard> I mean, if fedora is 100% against running zodbot on oftc for some reason, it will influence our decision
18:52:21 <misc> #action bcoca see if the network are stable by idling there
18:52:26 <webmind> misc: a lot of channels I'm in moved already, so I'm following :)
18:52:32 <gundalow> dmsimard: yup, this is one of the reasons I don't think we can make a decision today
18:52:51 <abadger1999> We could get documentation PRs ready now..... if the choice of network changes, we'd have an easier time just replacing the places in the documentation that the PR touched.
18:52:56 <felixfontein> a 3.25
18:52:56 <felixfontein> b 7.75
18:52:56 <felixfontein> c 10.5
18:52:56 <felixfontein> d 0.5
18:53:01 <dmsimard> #info dmsimard registered ansible namespace channels on irc.oftc.net
18:53:05 <felixfontein> (counting above votes)
18:53:08 <dmsimard> #action gundalow to register ansible namespace channels on libera.chat
18:53:11 <felixfontein> (I hope I didn't screw up the counting :) )
18:53:23 <agaffney> felixfontein: how do the fractional votes work?
18:53:37 <acozine> that's for the folks who voted "A or B" and the like
18:53:42 <felixfontein> agaffney: if someone said 'b or c' I gave .5 to both, and for tadeboro I used .75 / .25
18:54:01 <misc> felixfontein: shouldn't we do a condorcet voting :p ?
18:54:03 <webmind> felixfontein: how do you count?
18:54:11 * tadeboro_ feels special, but felixfontein did account his vote right
18:54:31 <bcoca> its N dimensional math,
18:54:35 <tremble> Thumbs first or fingers first?
18:54:43 <felixfontein> (I didn't check if someone voted more than once though, I hope nobody did :) )
18:55:08 <resmo> if I only knew that before ;)
18:55:13 <bcoca> +1
18:55:15 <bcoca> +1
18:55:15 <acozine> so most folks want a decision within one week
18:55:16 <bcoca> +1
18:55:17 <dmsimard> felixfontein: I think the takeaway is somewhere inbetween B and C, concluding "let's wait a little bit before making a decision"
18:55:34 <webmind> felixfontein: considering order is relevant, should that be taken into account? or just see which one gets the most?
18:55:36 <felixfontein> dmsimard: I agree
18:55:54 <felixfontein> webmind: well, the idea was to get a first impression, and for that the heuristic is good enough :)
18:55:59 <webmind> ok
18:56:03 <misc> when is the next meeting ?
18:56:09 <dmsimard> next wednesday
18:56:10 <misc> cause we can just say "decide next meeting"
18:56:11 <dmsimard> same time
18:56:13 <felixfontein> misc: the next regular community meeting is in one week
18:56:16 <abadger1999> I feel like we don't entirely control when we move.
18:56:22 <resmo> 3mins left
18:56:32 <felixfontein> resmo: we never bothered about time limits ;)
18:56:33 <bcoca> we dont, freenet can go down imme....
18:56:39 <abadger1999> Since there's infrastructure that we depend on that is deciding independently of us where it is going to move
18:56:40 <dmsimard> resmo: we don't have a hard stop but we try to keep it within the hour
18:56:58 <misc> abadger1999: we kinda depend on zodbot, but I doubt Fedora would say no if we ask to have it on oftc as well
18:57:21 <resmo> dmsimard, felixfontein works for me ;)
18:57:33 <felixfontein> how about: a) we plan to decide next week, b) if freenode goes down before that, everyone can write their preferred solution in https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/19, then we lock and steering council votes (trying to accomodate what people want) and the result is announced there as well?
18:57:39 <abadger1999> So we can get ready to move between now and next week but we need to figure out what other people are doing too.
18:57:42 <bcoca> afaik zoidbot 'runs' on their hosted infra and just logs into the irc servers, so it shoudl be compatible as long as the protocol and auth are supported
18:57:43 <gundalow> #info In Freenode goes away unexpectedly we will post our new home on https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/19 (& Twitter, etc)
18:57:56 <dmsimard> +1 to gundalow and felixfontein
18:57:58 <abadger1999> felixfontein: Works for me :-)
18:58:07 <misc> +1
18:58:17 <acozine> +1
18:58:19 <jillr> Do we have any criteria other than 1) zodbot 2) stable 3) (eventually) Matrix bridging
18:58:20 <misc> this sound like "if the enemy force find us, we have to go undercover and regroup of github"
18:58:23 <markuman> +1
18:58:29 <felixfontein> jillr: 0) irc ;)
18:58:40 <jillr> felixfontein: hehe, well ok but between the 2 networks  :)
18:58:41 <dmsimard> jillr: if there are other technical criterias I am happy to hear them
18:58:43 * markuman subscribed the issue
18:58:47 <bcoca> jillr: we already coverd FOSS and acceptable governance
18:58:49 <acozine> misc: it's emergency preparedness 101 - have a designated meeting point
18:58:54 <felixfontein> jillr: I think that's basically it :)
18:59:00 <bcoca> my issues with libera are the latter
18:59:06 <resmo> do we meet on freenode next week?
18:59:06 <abadger1999> oftc uses a different form of auth than freenode did.  (OTOH, debian wrote meetbot from which zodbot was forked so it might work... on the gripping hand, who knows if the code can utilize two types of auth at the same time.  It's a frankenstein)
18:59:16 <resmo> just a silly question, I know.
18:59:21 <dmsimard> in terms of functionality, the only difference I have seen is that oftc.net doesn't support SASL and instead uses CertFP https://oftc.net/NickServ/CertFP/
18:59:22 <felixfontein> in the worst case, we have to do another ansible release where Display.info() shows the new location on every program invocation ;)
18:59:24 <resmo> but I might not be on freenode anymor
18:59:32 <gundalow> resmo: assuming Freenode exists, then yes we meet there next week
18:59:37 <dmsimard> I don't know if the lack of SASL is a deal breaker for anything/anyone
18:59:45 <tadeboro_> What resmo said. I might be off by the next week.
18:59:50 <felixfontein> if someone doesn't like to be on freenode, voice your opinion in https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/19
19:00:00 <abadger1999> jillr: I think another one would be:: is there a noticably larger number of people fleeing to oftc vs libera.chat?
19:00:03 <tremble> misc, 1 week...
19:00:03 <tremble> by default
19:00:06 <bcoca> resmo: we are on several of the options right now so until a permahome is decided probably 'all 5' will be home till then
19:00:09 <jillr> Votes can be made in the github issue before then for anyone off freenode by then
19:00:34 <gundalow> #info As part of the Steering Committee we are trying to make it easier for async meeting, therefore all topics will be raised in advanced in https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/ so everybody has a way to contribute
19:01:22 <cybette> cyb-clock chimes: it's 1 HOUR into the meeting! (side note: cyb-clock should work on any server/network)
19:01:26 <abadger1999> #undo
19:01:26 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: INFO by gundalow at 19:00:34 : As part of the Steering Committee we are trying to make it easier for async meeting, therefore all topics will be raised in advanced in https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/ so everybody has a way to contribute
19:01:38 <abadger1999> gundalow: I think you should say something about open floor.
19:01:53 <gundalow> abadger1999: what were you thinking?
19:02:05 <dmsimard> cybette: I love that cybclock cross network/protocol compatibility :)
19:02:08 <abadger1999> because right now things can be raised at open floor and would not have been in community-topics prior to that.
19:02:39 <abadger1999> (I just don't like the absolute of "all topics will be raised in advanced")
19:02:50 <felixfontein> #info We try to decide in a week where to move to. Please use https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/19 to voice your opinions, especially if you do not want to be on Freenode any longer, or in case Freenode goes down
19:03:13 <cyberpear> abadger1999++
19:03:13 <zodbot> cyberpear: Karma for toshio changed to 1 (for the current release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
19:03:31 <jillr> criteria so far captured in this comment:
19:03:32 <gundalow> #info As part of the Steering Committee we are trying to make it easier for async meeting, gennerally topics will be raised in advanced in https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/ so everybody has a way to contribute. Though it's always possible for people to raise topics during the meeting under "Open Floor", which may not have a GitHub Issue
19:03:33 <jillr> #link https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/19#issuecomment-844386297
19:03:43 <abadger1999> gundalow: thanks :-)
19:03:44 <felixfontein> IMO 'open floor' is mainly for 'smaller' topics, or for pre-discussing something that will become a proper topic next time
19:04:11 <felixfontein> jillr: thanks!
19:04:16 <dmsimard> jillr: thanks, someone should also capture the votes we had
19:04:20 <dmsimard> felixfontein: do you want to do that ?
19:04:45 <felixfontein> dmsimard: hmm did we use #agreed every time?
19:05:02 <abadger1999> Yeah, we should try to move discussion to the next meeting if we notice it's large or controversial.  OTOH, if someone has stayed up until 2:00AM their TZ to make the meeting and raises something in open floor, I'd like to resolve their issue then instead of making them stay up until 2:00AM the next week too.
19:05:04 <felixfontein> if yes, zodbot did that for us :)
19:05:29 <samccann> need to run folks!
19:05:32 <felixfontein> abadger1999: true
19:05:33 <samccann> #unchair samccann
19:05:33 <zodbot> Current chairs: Fugu_ Tas-sos abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard eqrx felixfontein gundalow jillr lmodemal markuman maxamillion misc mmercer-nothere relrod resmo sivel tadeboro_ tremble
19:05:34 <dmsimard> we didn't for the 1-2 first votes
19:05:38 <felixfontein> bye samccann!
19:05:42 <abadger1999> jillr: Thanks! Excellent summary
19:05:45 <felixfontein> dmsimard: I think we only did for the first votes ;)
19:05:50 <dmsimard> but I meant in the topic issue, not zodbot logs
19:05:52 <felixfontein> dmsimard: I'll go through the logs afterwards
19:06:00 <dmsimard> ok
19:06:07 <bcoca> we did do agreed for FOSS (not slack)
19:06:43 <dmsimard> maybe my ctrl+f fu is failing
19:06:49 <dmsimard> will look after
19:07:01 <felixfontein> ok. is anyone interested in discussing something else from https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues ?
19:07:21 <bcoca> [14:11] <felixfontein> #agreed We would like to keep a FOSS-friendly solution (which excludes slack for example)
19:07:30 <dmsimard> gundalow: did you want to talk about galaxy ?
19:07:33 <bcoca> ^ my grep foo found it
19:07:42 <dmsimard> bcoca: thanks
19:08:41 <felixfontein> #topic open floor
19:08:46 <felixfontein> anyone has a quick topic?
19:09:38 <felixfontein> I created a topic on moving the inventory and vault scripts out of community.general to a dedicated repository (not a collection), if you have opinions on that please take a look at https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/16
19:10:06 <sivel> #unchair sivel
19:10:06 <zodbot> Current chairs: Fugu_ Tas-sos abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard eqrx felixfontein gundalow jillr lmodemal markuman maxamillion misc mmercer-nothere relrod resmo tadeboro_ tremble
19:10:35 <acozine> should we retire unmaintained inventory scripts?
19:10:53 <felixfontein> also there's a topic about 'Should we have a collection linter?' (https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/15)
19:10:57 <abadger1999> I'm ambivalent.
19:11:09 <abadger1999> (on the inventory scripts)
19:11:14 <acozine> inventory plugins are the future . . . or the present, really
19:11:23 <jillr> if the script has a plugin equivalent, probably yes
19:11:24 <felixfontein> acozine: since there's no way to properly deprecate them, it's not so simple to actually do that
19:11:32 <acozine> ah, good point
19:11:35 <abadger1999> Has ansible tower migrated away from them yet?
19:12:00 <abadger1999> That was just a data point question.
19:12:11 <jillr> at least some of them; aws and vmware are plugin based now
19:12:18 <abadger1999> <nod>
19:12:23 <cyberpear> IIRC, the benefit of an an inventory script vs plugin is that the script can have any license whereas the plugin must be GPL. Shouldn't affect stuff in c.g, though.
19:12:25 <agaffney> what would it mean to "retire" them? are they even shipped with ansible?
19:12:40 * lmodemal good meeting. See you all next week :)
19:12:49 <felixfontein> agaffney: right now they are shipped with the collection they are contained in (most are in community.general)
19:12:57 <felixfontein> agaffney: but they are not so easy to find :)
19:13:08 <abadger1999> They were shipped in the ansible tarbal in 2.9.  They're in the community.general tarball now.
19:13:09 <felixfontein> (especially as they aren't first-class collection citizens)
19:13:13 <agaffney> they weren't shipped with ansible prior to collections, right? they were in the github repo but not packaged?
19:13:14 <tadeboro_> abadger1999: I know tower can use inventory plugins from collections (we use that functionality daily).
19:13:17 <resmo> #unchair resmo
19:13:17 <zodbot> Current chairs: Fugu_ Tas-sos abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard eqrx felixfontein gundalow jillr lmodemal markuman maxamillion misc mmercer-nothere relrod tadeboro_ tremble
19:13:20 <bcoca> also scripts will be 'supported' by the 'script' inventory plugin, its just a good way for peopel to handle any custom/proprietary system to get info to ansible in any language they are comfrtable with
19:13:21 <abadger1999> They weren't usable without the user finding the and moving them in either case, though
19:13:22 <resmo> bye
19:13:29 <dmsimard> resmo: o/
19:13:32 <shertel> agaffney: right, they weren't before
19:13:32 <dmsimard> thanks for coming
19:13:32 <abadger1999> relrod: bye!
19:13:40 <felixfontein> bye resmo!
19:13:43 <abadger1999> Grr... tab complete with re is my fail today
19:13:51 <abadger1999> resmo: bye :-)
19:13:54 <felixfontein> :)
19:13:59 <bcoca> agaffney: i believe at one point they ended in contrib/ in the tarballs/rpms , but not sure
19:14:00 <felixfontein> I'm just saying cyb<tab> ;)
19:14:07 <cybette> lol
19:14:11 <resmo> you'll find me on libra.chat and oftc ;)
19:14:12 <felixfontein> resp. cybe<tab>
19:14:44 <acozine> retiring them is obviously not easy, so I withdraw the suggestion
19:14:53 <acozine> I was just hoping we could get a quick, easy solution
19:15:29 <felixfontein> 'retiring' them to a github repo that's not a collection and not included in Ansible would be fine for me, resp. is basically what I suggest ;) depends a bit on what *exactly* you mean with 'retiring' though
19:16:04 <felixfontein> in an 'unrelated' repo, they can rot in peace, and people can still download and use them if they want
19:16:20 <tadeboro_> Retirement also affects docs a bit since at least some of the scripts are used in scenario docs.
19:16:22 <felixfontein> (or raise PRs to that repo to fix bus)
19:16:28 <jillr> my plan for ec2 was going to be just put a big changelog note as a deprecation and then eventually just git rm it. if there's another repo though I'm happy to hand it over.
19:16:39 <felixfontein> tadeboro_: right now is the best time to adjust these links, before the scenario guides are moved to collections...
19:17:40 <felixfontein> does anyone know how they are usually used? the scenario guides seem to tell people to download them (and use the downloaded version)
19:17:56 <felixfontein> does tower run them directly from installed collections?
19:18:17 <felixfontein> (when people download them, it doesn't matter at all where they come from, as long as they have a public URL)
19:18:28 <abadger1999> agaffney: I confirm that they're in the 2.9.0 tarball.
19:18:37 <jillr> felixfontein: for ec2, Tower shipped their own copy of the script. I dont know about for collections though because we cut over to the plugin like 2 years ago
19:18:47 <tadeboro_> I am pretty sure tower does not know how to use inventory scripts from collections.
19:18:56 <bcoca> jillr: there is always git history
19:19:18 <felixfontein> jillr: since there's still a steady flow of PRs for them (some even want to add new ones, rewrite existing ones, or add new features) people still seem to use them
19:19:19 <jillr> bcoca: if folks want to get it from there, vaya con queso.  :)  I'm not maintaining it though
19:19:38 <bcoca> eggzactly
19:19:47 <felixfontein> same here ;)
19:20:11 <abadger1999> felixfontein: You probably should make some of those PR-openers maintainers ofthe new repo ;-)
19:20:24 <bcoca> github.com/orphans/ansbile_inventory_script
19:20:25 <jillr> I have a hard stop coming up, other than none of us wanting to maintain inventory scripts do we have anything outstanding for today?
19:20:33 <acozine> sigh, we still document scripts: https://docs.ansible.com/ansible/latest/user_guide/intro_dynamic_inventory.html#intro-dynamic-inventory
19:20:45 <felixfontein> jillr: I don't think so
19:20:49 <bcoca> acozine: and it is fine, many will still need to develop them
19:20:57 <bcoca> bigger issue is pointing to specific scripts in guides
19:21:00 <cybette> cyb-clock chimes: 1 hr 20 min into meeting, open floor for 12 minutes
19:21:03 <bcoca> when plugin alternative is available
19:21:03 <acozine> true
19:21:06 <jillr> #unchair jillr
19:21:06 <zodbot> Current chairs: Fugu_ Tas-sos abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard eqrx felixfontein gundalow lmodemal markuman maxamillion misc mmercer-nothere relrod tadeboro_ tremble
19:21:13 <acozine> jillr: ciao!
19:21:22 <markuman> #unchair markuman
19:21:22 <zodbot> Current chairs: Fugu_ Tas-sos abadger1999 acozine agaffney andersson007_ apple4ever cyberpear cybette dmsimard eqrx felixfontein gundalow lmodemal maxamillion misc mmercer-nothere relrod tadeboro_ tremble
19:21:27 <jillr> I've got to run then, thanks folks - this was a really productive meeting!
19:21:37 <felixfontein> ok, let's close the meeting in a few minutes. if someone wants to continue this discussion, add your opinions to https://github.com/ansible-community/community-topics/issues/16, and we'll eventually discuss this at a meeting
19:21:40 <bcoca> tyring to sum up in one phrase: inventory scripts will live long, specific scripts we wrote, we want them to die
19:21:52 <acozine> heh
19:21:53 <felixfontein> bcoca: yeah
19:22:13 <acozine> so not something we can solve/decide on in the open floor today
19:22:19 <felixfontein> acozine: definitely not :)
19:22:27 <tadeboro_> We do not want them to die, they just need to move out and start making it on their own ;)
19:22:28 <agaffney> ansible will continue to support inventory scripts, but the ansible devs don't want to support specific inventory scripts :)
19:22:28 <abadger1999> acozine: We probably should have a callout at the top of that document that has pros of using inventory plugins instead, though.
19:22:42 <acozine> yeah, that page needs attention
19:23:02 <acozine> that info is there, but you have to dig for it / really read the text
19:23:08 <abadger1999> tadeboro_: I like your metaphor :-)
19:23:10 <bcoca> acozine: ping me if you need the list of features
19:23:19 <felixfontein> #endmeeting