13:32:40 <kaio> #startmeeting
13:32:40 <zodbot> Meeting started Sat Feb  5 13:32:40 2011 UTC.  The chair is kaio. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:32:40 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
13:32:49 <kaio> #meetingname famsco
13:32:49 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco'
13:33:27 * kaio loading
13:33:45 <gbraad-china> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/SteeringCommittee/Agenda
13:33:45 <kaio> #topic Community Hosting
13:33:51 <kaio> pls gbraad-china
13:34:16 <kaio> #idea Help out smaller (read: new) communities setting up the basics they need
13:34:26 <kaio> #idea Fedora Community subdomain
13:34:26 <gbraad-china> note: we will omit Pierros's agenda point. We have to postpone it till next meeting due to him not being able to attend
13:34:38 <kaio> gbraad-china☺ sure than next
13:34:59 <kaio> starts from the topics I put in agenda?
13:35:16 <gbraad-china> At the moment we have a possibility to apply for a fedoracommunity.org subdomain
13:35:17 <kaio> #agreed  we will omit Pierros's agenda point. We have to postpone it till next meeting due to him not being able to attend
13:36:19 <gbraad-china> The adivsory board has to make a decision about the approval to grant you a country-based subdomain
13:36:36 <gbraad-china> Currently this process feels lengthy and unnecessary
13:36:49 * kaio ++
13:36:55 <gbraad-china> The reason for this seems to be related to legal issues with the content that might be hosted
13:37:16 <gbraad-china> however, I do not see this motivation holding up as we also have blogs.fedoraproject.org
13:37:40 <gbraad-china> which also can host the dreaded information about non free codecs or software from the fedora domain
13:38:09 <kaio> shouldnt fc.o is created to be proof from legal issues to FP's sponsor?
13:38:11 <gbraad-china> I would like to discuss the process as most of this is really related to providing a platform for communities to build temselves
13:39:01 <gbraad-china> the requester is mostly an ambassador or mentor who already knows the drill and can work together with us to avoid any legal issue
13:39:28 <gbraad-china> do you agree with this?
13:39:34 * kaio ++
13:39:53 <gbraad-china> lcafiero ?
13:40:58 <kaio> gbraad-china☺
13:41:23 <gbraad-china> the other point of Community Hosting is not related to the process of approval, but about the resources Fedora can offer for this
13:41:28 <lcafiero> yes, I agree. I was looking into the legal part of this. Though I am not sure that the process is that lengthy. I think we should take caution with whom we let establish a fedora domain.
13:42:15 <gbraad-china> the board has to approve the subdomain in a meeting. at the moment I am still waiting for a reopened ticket
13:42:25 <gbraad-china> I am sure more of these situations have occured
13:43:14 <lcafiero> I know there was an instance in italy where they were hesitant to give the domain to someone because they wanted to check him out further.
13:43:28 <gbraad-china> since Fedora can provide blogs.fp.o I believe we can also provide small and/or new communities a means to jumpstart themselves
13:44:08 <gbraad-china> lcafiero was that related to the person? I do believe that for requestimng you need to be part of Ambassadors first
13:44:40 <lcafiero> right.
13:44:53 <lcafiero> I can't remember the instance, but he may not have been an ambassador.
13:45:22 <lcafiero> I'm OK with it, though, if you think the person(s) are dedicated and qualified.
13:45:24 <lcafiero> +1
13:45:31 <gbraad-china> so I think we need to suggest a process to the board which involved that an Ambassador (preferably with a Mentor) would need to apply
13:45:53 <kaio> I am wondering if the requester has full (temp) ownership to the sub domain he/she requested
13:46:34 <gbraad-china> partly, as you need to hand over an IP which will be assigned to the subdomain
13:46:50 <lcafiero> is this something we need to develop a process for?
13:47:29 <gbraad-china> after the approval you can still host anything you want it seems as the approval is only done on an initial review
13:47:39 <gbraad-china> I believe we can suggest an improved process
13:48:08 <gbraad-china> at the moment the process only involves creation of a ticket in the advisoru board trac
13:48:21 <gbraad-china> and also, most ambassadors are still not aware of this option
13:48:23 <kaio> We may need to avoid if a requester holds over power to push his/her thoughts without others.
13:48:42 <lcafiero> just so I'm clear -- are we deciding to give someone rights to make a fc.o site, or are we deciding on changing/improving the process?
13:49:21 <gbraad-china> we can not create the fc.o subdomain. i would suggest to provide an improved process
13:49:46 * kaio ++
13:50:07 <lcafiero> +1
13:50:40 <gbraad-china> the other part is investigating if Fedora Infrastructure can provide a platform (basic tools for hosting) to start such a subdomain.Like hosting a blog or part of a wiki
13:52:14 <lcafiero> I believe they might. I think that was part of the discussion with the italian site.
13:52:19 <lcafiero> But I would have to check
13:52:41 <kaio> pls keep us updated thx lcafiero
13:52:41 * gbraad-china waits for kaio's agree on 'draft an improved process for application of fedoracommunity.org subdomain'
13:52:50 * kaio ++
13:53:08 <gbraad-china> lcafiero, if you can find this information, please submit this to the mailinglist for discussion
13:53:29 <gbraad-china> kaio, please create action item
13:53:31 <lcafiero> +1
13:53:56 <kaio> #action gbraad and kaio - draft an improved process for application of fedoracommunity.org subdomain'
13:54:22 <gbraad-china> another item I would have liked to suggest was related to Fedora Classroom, but will postpone this to the next meeting as it was not part of this agenda
13:54:27 * gbraad-china eol
13:54:57 <kaio> #idea Fedora Classroom is postpone to next meeting
13:55:22 <kaio> lcafiero☺ yours?
13:56:15 <lcafiero> My what?
13:56:23 <kaio> lcafiero☺ would you have topics to discuss?
13:56:53 <lcafiero> I don't, actually.
13:57:07 <lcafiero> Tickets -- I believe there's only one and it's being taken care of.
13:57:26 <kaio> lcafiero☺ sure
13:57:31 <lcafiero> Max, Harish and I discussed handling tickets at FUDCon and we divided up the world :-)
13:57:37 <lcafiero> Harish will be handling apac tickets.
13:58:04 <lcafiero> Max and I will be doing the rest.
13:58:11 <gbraad-china> about tickets, I have ALSO checked fedora-apac tickets besides the fedora-famsco one's and it seems we had 2 active tickets from 2010
13:58:50 <gbraad-china> I have posted a reminder to the ones that are older than 6 months else I will close them as WONTFIX
13:59:06 <kaio> I have similar topic about tickets.
13:59:42 <gbraad-china> so, please kaio, your topic. stick to the agenda
13:59:46 * kaio put up some ideas post-LCA2011/FAD@Brisbane
13:59:56 <kaio> #topic improvement on media distribution in APAC
14:00:23 <lcafiero> right, gbraad-china -- we're working on that, dividing up where they are, collecting receipts, etc.
14:00:41 <lcafiero> One of the problems is that people ask for money, or they spend money, and don't provide proper documentation.
14:01:13 <kaio> Currently in APAC, we are not organized for the product line of media.
14:01:54 <gbraad-china> lcafiero, we will continue after kaio's topic as he has a similar topic.
14:02:34 <lcafiero> OK
14:02:37 <gbraad-china> kaio, how do you want to improve this?
14:02:45 <kaio> i.e. from quantity and specs, manufacture; to splitting and logistics.
14:04:24 <kaio> About last production (F14), Harish is the one who took responsibility to order the pressed F14 Live CD. He decided the quantity and shipped to Brisbane, Australia in one pack for Linux Conf Australia and FAD.
14:05:02 <gbraad-china> kaio, from what I understand media for LATAM and NA is manufactured in the US on request by Max? for APAC this is done by Harish... reason? I guess related to reimbursing
14:05:11 <kaio> Then only azneita and me have to decide how to do a primary split of that remained media.
14:06:00 <gbraad-china> the distribution of this can be handled by the Fedora-APAC trac or do you want to distribute this pro-actively?
14:06:26 <kaio> gbraad-china☺ money-wise Harish can get order->manufacture->post-in-one-pack efficiently, but not the details.
14:07:15 <kaio> And we cannot assume Harish always be able to make it for F15 and so on.
14:07:25 <gbraad-china> I assume the current batch can be handled on the mailinglist for ambassadors or by email.
14:07:32 <kaio> i.e. we need to do this pro-actively
14:07:33 <gbraad-china> but how about future manufacturing?
14:08:05 <kaio> we need to discuss and document the production process for APAC
14:08:34 * gbraad-china suggests to find out which areas need Media the most and can have it produced locally
14:08:43 <gbraad-china> shipping is also costly.
14:08:56 <kaio> and with a rough proportion of media for each community in APAC (with flexibility when there are events happening)
14:09:23 <lcafiero> that's a good point gbraad-china -- in some instances it's better to have the media produced locally.
14:09:27 <kaio> gbraad-china☺ for ANZ, shipping < manufacturing
14:09:57 * kaio can get most gadgets from overseas cheaper even with shipping
14:10:22 <gbraad-china> I guess we need to make a call to ambassadors in APAC to ask how much shipping is or manufacturing and based on this decide how to process it
14:10:50 <kaio> what I think is a mass production for APAC and have 3+ distribution centers
14:11:04 <gbraad-china> EMEA and NA seems to me easier to deal with. Maybe LATAM has similar experiences
14:11:44 <kaio> gbraad☺ ++ about survey about local shipping and manufacture costs
14:11:45 <gbraad-china> kaio, that would still need to decide where to manufacture
14:12:32 <kaio> gbraad-china☺ I believe mass order may save more than shipping
14:12:57 * gbraad-china thinks 'I believe' is not convincing enough ;-)
14:13:29 <kaio> gbraad-china☺ so did I agree about your call to ask fams about their costs of shipping and manufacturing
14:13:39 <gbraad-china> ++
14:14:00 <kaio> #action gbraad-china make a call to ambassadors in APAC to ask how much shipping is or manufacturing and based on this decide how to process it
14:14:02 * gbraad-china agrees on investigating the process of manufacturing and shipping of Fedora media and swag witihin APAC
14:14:23 <kaio> next topic?
14:14:27 <gbraad-china> please
14:14:38 <gbraad-china> as this also touches the reimbursement
14:14:39 <kaio> #topic simplify reimbursement process
14:14:51 <gbraad-china> can I say something first?
14:14:56 <kaio> currently we have many tracs for reimbursement
14:15:01 <kaio> gbraad-china☺ pls
14:15:27 <gbraad-china> lcafiero pointed out earlier that most people do not present a receipt or document about their expenses. any idea why?
14:15:43 <gbraad-china> do we lack to provide enough information about this?
14:15:56 <lcafiero> well, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. When they don't it slows things down.
14:16:06 <lcafiero> I believe it is documented that they have to do this.
14:16:11 <gbraad-china> in the reimbursement process I know we state this very clearly
14:16:23 <lcafiero> It brings up an underlying issue of responsibility by ambassadors to be informed.
14:16:30 <gbraad-china> or any alternative means to show you made the cost
14:16:35 <kaio> gbraad-china☺ we need to have petty/non-petty mark
14:16:37 <lcafiero> but I won't go into that htere.
14:16:45 <lcafiero> htere=here
14:17:26 <gbraad-china> I do believe Ambassadors need to provide all information we need to make the decision. Information asymmetry would work against them in this case
14:17:32 <kaio> sth like things under $20 or $30 is petty costs which famsco can decide w/o receipt provided
14:17:33 <lcafiero> Anyway, we have streamlined the process where people have been given specific responsibilities for regions -- Harish in APAC, me in other areas and FAmSCo, and Max everywhere,
14:17:51 <kaio> lcafiero☺ ++
14:17:51 <lcafiero> no, I think they still need to provide a receipt for ALL expenditures
14:18:00 <gbraad-china> has this been decided during FUDCon?
14:18:01 <lcafiero> They just don't need approval for them.
14:18:11 <gbraad-china> lcafiero ++ for all expenses
14:18:12 <kaio> lcafiero☺ sometimes a meal in food court has no receipts
14:18:18 <lcafiero> has what been decided?
14:18:38 <gbraad-china> > Harish in APAC, me in other areas and FAmSCo, and Max everywhere,
14:18:52 <gbraad-china> this would mean people can go around Harish by directly approaching Max?
14:19:10 <lcafiero> That was discussed before fudcon and we discussed details at FUDCon.
14:19:44 <gbraad-china> ok
14:19:44 * kaio ++ for APAC reimbursements should only should contact Harish
14:19:51 <lcafiero> kaio: in that case, maybe, but still for things like release parties, etc., there should be a paper trail.
14:20:06 <gbraad-china> agree ++
14:20:24 <lcafiero> but I find it hard to imagine that if you buy something at a shop, they can't give you a receipt, even if it's the strip from the cash register.
14:20:59 <gbraad-china> I agree with lcafiero. getting a form of printed receipt is easier than most people think.
14:21:37 <kaio> ok let's set this as mandatory requirement for reimbursement from now on
14:21:43 <gbraad-china> ok\
14:21:53 <kaio> for all requests
14:21:56 <kaio> lcafiero☺ ++
14:21:57 <gbraad-china> lcafiero, please inform us when you still notice this being an issue
14:22:37 <kaio> lcafiero☺ we need to notify this clear to every fam
14:23:12 <kaio> anyth more about this?
14:23:12 <lcafiero> right. one of the things we discussed too is getting to tickets faster and not letting them sit. we will be better at that.
14:23:27 <lcafiero> And when we don't have proper docs, to ask for them.
14:23:47 <lcafiero> We're also looking into using Western Union where PayPal is not established.
14:23:53 <lcafiero> Like Bangladesh (I think)
14:23:55 <kaio> lcafiero☺ agree, azneita told me from his exp that the process was messy
14:23:56 * gbraad-china thinks Mentors should be the ones who inform (new) ambassadors about this procedure. requesting and reimbursement always need a paper trail
14:24:27 <lcafiero> right, a lot of people got caught in the indecision trap last month, and I'm to blame for that.
14:24:32 <gbraad-china> lcafiero, the same goes for other parts of Asia as Paypal is not well established here
14:24:42 <kaio> (using Western Union as secondary method was planned to be next topic) :)
14:24:56 <gbraad-china> lcafiero no blame here. just move forward :-)
14:25:42 <gbraad-china> I think we can all agree on alternative methods. Propose it on the list as I also wants spevack's input on this
14:25:43 <lcafiero> Right.
14:26:08 <kaio> so paypal > western union > bank transfer
14:26:45 <gbraad-china> ++, but I can not decide about this. needs to be spevack, harish and lcafiero
14:27:40 <kaio> #action Wectern Union as alternative methods of reimbursement. Propose it on the list as also wants spevack + harish + lcafiero's input on this
14:27:41 <gbraad-china> #action kaio will propose alternative reimbursement method on list for review by harish, max and larry
14:27:53 <gbraad-china> ok
14:27:55 <kaio> oh dup action
14:28:02 <gbraad-china> I can not post actions
14:28:07 <kaio> oic
14:28:09 <lcafiero> Bank transfers will be somewhat problematic and should be used as a last resort.
14:28:19 <gbraad-china> agree
14:28:28 * kaio ++
14:28:33 <gbraad-china> back on-topic, simplify the process
14:28:39 <kaio> yes
14:28:41 <lcafiero> Western Union, I think, is already an alternative. I don't think that needs to be acted on.
14:28:52 <lcafiero> Simplifying the process should be probably the action.
14:28:56 <gbraad-china> I do believe Kaio has a point with the amount of unnecessary trac instances we have
14:29:14 <kaio> lcafiero☺ so we can document western union in reimbursement wiki page
14:29:32 <kaio> gbraad-china☺ yes
14:29:45 <kaio> we have many tracs for reimbursement now
14:30:14 <gbraad-china> I do not think they were only meant for reimbursement, but also sway and equipment tracking
14:30:19 <gbraad-china> s/sway/swag
14:30:32 <kaio> main trac, regionsl tracs, famsco trac
14:30:51 <gbraad-china> I do think it creates unnecessary overhead and confusion.
14:31:22 * kaio thinks there had been misuses on that
14:31:57 <lcafiero> possibly
14:32:19 <kaio> people tend to create a ticket on main/regional trac, and create a duplicate one on famsco-trac to get attention from Max
14:32:41 <gbraad-china> not just, but this also creates long lived tickets
14:32:48 <kaio> this is a big no-no to me
14:32:54 <gbraad-china> agree
14:33:35 <kaio> I think famsco-trac is read-only to public but only famsco members can create/comment tickets (plue max and harish)
14:34:11 <kaio> we need transparency on famsco expenses but fams should ask for reimbursement in general tracs
14:34:19 <lcafiero> I agree, and people shouldn't do that.
14:34:33 <lcafiero> make more than one ticket
14:34:35 <kaio> this does not make their request discriminated
14:34:45 <lcafiero> And I think you'll see going forward that the process will work better.
14:35:15 <kaio> then, we as famsco have to follow up the tickets in general/regional tracs to get process done timely
14:36:12 <kaio> our job is simple: request receipt -> assess -> ping Max/Harish to send the money
14:36:28 <gbraad-china> ok...
14:36:53 <gbraad-china> this means they can not post or create a ticket in one main or famsco trac for this
14:37:11 <kaio> request -> assess -> pay, we all do single job. When all of us did properly, things are done smoothly.
14:37:16 <gbraad-china> we are responsible as a relay between them?
14:37:29 <kaio> gbraad☺ generally yes
14:37:53 <lcafiero> yes
14:38:05 <kaio> this need the trusts from max/harish on us, and fam trusts on us
14:39:08 <kaio> we may encourage reimbursements for regional events, using regional trac
14:39:34 <kaio> unless the events are global, such as shirt ordering (just e.g.)
14:40:01 <gbraad-china> so, kaio... what do you suggest?
14:40:03 * kaio still have not figure out the overlap purpose of main and regional trac
14:40:28 <kaio> how about close the main trac
14:41:07 <kaio> if we have not seen a global event ever
14:41:32 <kaio> we can discuss this further
14:41:37 <gbraad-china> let's define this in more detail
14:41:54 <lcafiero> agreed.
14:41:55 <gbraad-china> and postpone till next meeting
14:41:56 <lcafiero> +1
14:41:59 <kaio> but the request-assess-reimburse should be proceed
14:42:21 <lcafiero> right. As far as closing things down, that will need more than just our decision.
14:42:26 <kaio> let's all of us agree on that first
14:42:51 * gbraad-china agrees on gathering more details and postpone the topic
14:42:53 <kaio> lcafiero☺ agree, for closing I have not convinced myself even
14:43:04 <kaio> just a brainstorm
14:43:20 <kaio> next topic?
14:43:33 * gbraad-china suggests brainstorms not to be held on meeting but in #fedora-famsco or on mailinglist
14:43:36 <kaio> let's make action item
14:44:46 <kaio> #action kaio ask fam about the simplification of reimbursement process to 3 steps on mailing list
14:45:17 <kaio> #action kaio initiate discussions about overlap purpose of general and regional tracs on mailing list
14:45:25 <kaio> #topic alternative funding methods
14:45:25 <gbraad-china> next topic please
14:45:34 <kaio> #idea just discussed, so next topoic
14:46:03 <kaio> #topic legal of Fedora Classroom
14:46:12 <kaio> ^ we discussed this just now?
14:46:15 <gbraad-china> Fedora Classroom will be postponed and most of the issues have been discussed on list
14:46:23 <kaio> okay, so next
14:46:37 <kaio> #topic fedora at career fair in Brisbane (up to more general discussions about similar scenario)
14:47:07 <kaio> just take that as just a general discussions about our appearance at career fairs coop with RH
14:48:00 <gbraad-china> we as Fedora do not provide jobs, so this is related to RH's own willingness to promote a RH position which involves Fedora as part of the job.
14:48:09 <gbraad-china> I did not get the whole point :-s
14:48:21 <kaio> yes that is kind of what I have in mind
14:49:13 <gbraad-china> however, we can not decide anything here about this.
14:49:23 <kaio> the whole story was: RH asked if we FAm interested to share their booth at career fairs.
14:49:37 <gbraad-china> This question has been asked?
14:50:14 <kaio> and include the costs (and the costs is not reasonable to Fedora, IMHO)
14:50:27 <kaio> or s/reasonable/fair/, IMHO
14:50:35 <gbraad-china> This changes the subjects as I thought it was from Fedora to RH. But from RH to Fedora is different. But again I do not see this being a discussion for us.
14:50:49 <kaio> I will stop here.
14:50:57 <gbraad-china> Any cost made in this respect should not affect our regional FAmSCo budget
14:51:40 <gbraad-china> and would need to be handled by the requesting party, in this case RH
14:51:51 <gbraad-china> lcafiero ?
14:52:00 <kaio> I suggest to make up our standpoints to support solely as volunteer for Fedora and Fedora swags. And that's it.
14:52:01 <lcafiero> right.
14:52:53 <kaio> We are happy for any opportunity to promote Fedora, but not as a delegate organization.
14:53:53 * kaio EOF
14:53:55 <gbraad-china> Any opportunity for promotion is good, for sure... but the target audience is not a 'serious' userbase
14:54:10 <gbraad-china> if you understand what I mean
14:54:16 <lcafiero> i am in agreement, but if kaio wants to discuss this further on list, that would be OK with me.
14:54:26 <gbraad-china> also OK with me
14:54:57 * kaio myself is happy to stand there in Fedora shirt and giving away Fedora swags.
14:55:15 <gbraad-china> so would we ;-)
14:55:32 <kaio> so this is just a FYI
14:55:55 <gbraad-china> ok
14:56:06 <kaio> one last thing about monthly report
14:56:12 <kaio> last last thing
14:56:31 <lcafiero> OK. We're heading into hour 2 of the meeting, even though we started a half-hour late.
14:56:38 <kaio> I read the DEC report and saw the info about contents of new FAm
14:56:47 <kaio> sorry I end this in 2 mins
14:57:22 <lcafiero> Just pointing it out.
14:57:22 <kaio> I will get the list of new FAms in APAC and put to DEC and JAN report.
14:57:33 <gbraad-china> Dec is published
14:57:47 <kaio> @idea if no more topics let's call it a meeting
14:57:58 <gbraad-china> So include these as part of the Jan meeting
14:58:07 <lcafiero> +1
14:58:10 <kaio> gbraad☺ ++
14:58:16 <gbraad-china> s/meeting/report
14:58:20 <lcafiero> and +1 to end the meeting :-)
14:58:23 <gbraad-china> ok, please wrap up
14:58:30 <gbraad-china> No regional announcement from APAC
14:58:43 <kaio> Thank you everyone for meeting and sorry for long meeting.
14:58:46 <kaio> #endmeeting