19:07:29 <quaid> #startmeeting
19:07:30 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Mar 29 19:07:29 2010 UTC.  The chair is quaid. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:07:32 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
19:07:38 <RITSteve> Sent announcement ot the other 6 CS dept chairs in my neck of the woords
19:07:47 <quaid> nope, it was exactly as I said but I was distracted  during the crucial moment
19:07:57 <mchua> quaid: Gotcha. Thanks!
19:08:13 <RITSteve> Asked profs with inks at Cornell and Buffalo to spread the word, just happened over the weekend so no data yet on responses
19:08:34 <jadudm> Mel, to be clear, we're waiting for our Friday meeting before starting a recruitment push, correct?
19:08:46 <jadudm> (re: POSSE NW PA)
19:08:49 * mchua wants to thank RITSteve for doing an *amazing* job with POSSE publicity - between the info session and the many many pings you've been doing, I think we're going to hit capacity very, *very* quickly for the RIT one, may need to point people towards Worcester
19:08:51 <RITSteve> May have enough at RIT alone t fill the seats, but looking for a good mix
19:08:53 <mchua> jadudm: yep yep.
19:09:16 <RITSteve> May need to start thinking about another next year
19:09:34 <mwhitehe> RITSteve: why wait an entire year? why not semi-annually?
19:10:17 <jadudm> mwhitehe: Faculty have a hard enough time developing/deploying courses in a timely manner; a winter break POSSE would do nothing for the curriculum until at least the next year.
19:10:22 <jadudm> That's my claim.
19:10:25 <RITSteve> Short answer calendat issues for RIT.  If semi-annually might need to host at another school.  Details off-line later
19:10:45 <mchua> mwhitehe: I was surprised at the scheduling for this year - *everyone* wanted their POSSE in June.
19:10:47 <RITSteve> Hosting at another school is, of course possible
19:11:10 * mchua is, however, not an academic, and was unaware of when-is-good-and-when-is-bad schedule cycles until fairly recently, and is still only vaguely aware of them now.
19:11:14 <mchua> (thanks to jadudm)
19:11:48 <mchua> Any other notes/questions on POSSEs for the summer? quaid, anything re: POSSE CA you'd like to say?
19:11:52 <RITSteve> June is generally the sweet spot for many schools, classes over but faculty's own kids still in school, so no famillyvacation conflicts, at least as far as us goes
19:12:03 <jadudm> aye.
19:12:12 <kwurst> Hi. Sorry I'm late - just got out of class.
19:12:16 <mchua> kwurst: hey, perfect timing! We were just discussing whether there was any news/questions for POSSEs coming up this summer... anything about Worcester you've got questions on, or would like to share?
19:12:25 <quaid> mchua: we need a design school in the Bay Area :)
19:12:53 <mchua> quaid: yes we do. :) If there is one very very excited about hosting a Design POSSE I can ask Mo if she wants to fly out there for the first week of August (when we were planning on doing it in Boston).
19:12:58 <kwurst> I'm about to start sending out advertisements/invitations to local schools.
19:13:02 <mchua> Otherwise I'll find a school in Boston... but I'm getting ahead of the agenda here. :)
19:13:07 <mchua> kwurst: Coolness. Anything we can do to help you out there?
19:13:14 <aphid> quaid - i'm teaching digital media at uc santa cruz.. almost bay area :P
19:13:24 <mchua> #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/HOWTO_plan_a_POSSE#POSSE_announcement_email
19:13:28 <mchua> kwurst: ^^ announcement email template, in case it helps
19:13:35 <mchua> aphid: ooh. We should... talk in a bit, then. ;)
19:13:37 <kwurst> Nope, the updated announcement looks good.
19:13:53 <mchua> Coolness. quaid, you and alolita are hitting up the local schools for CA POSSE?
19:14:04 <quaid> aphid: can you hang around after the meeting for a few minutes?
19:14:27 * micadeyeye will be back in a jiffy
19:14:27 <aphid> mchua - I'd be happy to.  I just found this channel via paulproteus when I pinged in #freeculture about viability of making a freenode channel for the course I start teaching tomorrow
19:14:28 <kwurst> I did get some info on housing in the dorms, so I'll follow up on that and get some hotel info for those who want a *real* bed.
19:14:41 <mchua> Awesome.
19:15:18 <mchua> aphid: Ok - you and quaid and I can hang out and chat design afterwards.
19:15:25 <quaid> aphid: you just made my day :)
19:15:33 <mchua> Okay, anything else on POSSEs coming up this summer? If not, I'd like to move on to the tentative ones, so people know what's coming up.
19:15:45 <kwurst> Do you want me to apply to participate in the POSSE here? Or do I get a pass on that for hosting?
19:16:24 <mchua> kwurst: You get a pass on that for hosting.
19:16:30 <mchua> I'd say, anyway.
19:16:45 <mchua> (we haven't really... had a good way to be consistent about that in the past, because our sample size for POSSEs is n=2 so far.)
19:16:47 <aphid> afk/syllabushacking, let me know when the meeting's over
19:16:53 <mchua> aphid: will ping.
19:17:08 <kwurst> Yippee! One less thing to do. (Although I may write it up anyway as a way of clarifying what I want to get out of the experience)
19:17:09 <jadudm> Ah. I guess I do have a POSSE question.
19:17:18 <micadeyeye> All is set for POSSE SA.
19:17:29 <jadudm> How/when do we decide what project to use as the basis for our big code spellunk?
19:17:43 <jadudm> Do we replicate the Firefox dive, or do something different/unique at each POSSE?
19:17:56 <micadeyeye> it's coming up on oct. 3-8.
19:18:12 <mchua> jadudm: the way I've been thinking about it is "what codebase do the instructors want to spelunk in?"
19:18:47 <mchua> either what they're interested in, or comfortable with, or a combo of the two... or alternatively, what they can get a guest to come in and lead the spelunking on.
19:19:00 <mchua> The later may in some cases be a better option if there's a ninja hacker nearby who's available.
19:19:32 <RITSteve> ALso kinda depends on who the students are to a certain extent
19:19:44 <jadudm> RITSteve: say more?
19:20:15 <mchua> micadeyeye: Awesome! We'll get to POSSE SA in a moment, I want to make sure jadudm's question gets answered first.
19:20:23 <RITSteve> Neeed to guage the student skill set before you'd pick I think.  Not everyone is up to kernel work, for example
19:20:41 <jadudm> RITSteve: Right.
19:21:00 <kwurst> RITSteve: I agree.
19:21:41 <RITSteve> We're likely going to have a diverse group at ours, may have some of them doing several different things in teams
19:21:42 <kwurst> We spend lots more time here in Java than in C, for example.
19:22:14 <RITSteve> Will be a discussion Mel, I and the other instructor have once we see who we end up with
19:22:36 <mchua> RITSteve: ctyler will be one of the two instructors, the other will be either myself or farlog
19:22:49 <RITSteve> cool
19:22:55 <mchua> depending on farlog's schedule - my fingers are crossed that he'll be able to make it and I can drop back to documenting the POSSE and helping out as an odd hand.
19:23:34 * ctyler suggests 'fardad' ... farlog is his logbot :-)
19:23:35 <RITSteve> Might have remy and is team of story tellers for documentation anyway
19:23:46 <jadudm> ctyler: Thank you. I was wondering... :)
19:23:49 <mchua> jadudm: not sure if your question got directly answered... we still need to pick one to spelunk in for CMU POSSE. Do you feel like we need a hard deadline for selecting that?
19:23:57 <mchua> ctyler: but but tab autocomplete! :)
19:24:01 <jadudm> mchua: No. Friday will come soon enough.
19:24:05 <mchua> jadudm: sir yes sir!
19:24:09 <mchua> Okeydokey.
19:24:12 <jadudm> mchua: But I wondered if there was a larger script in that regard.
19:24:14 <mchua> Last comments/thoughts on upcoming POSSEs?
19:24:18 <mchua> jadudm: not yet ;)
19:24:32 <jadudm> They'll be awesome.
19:24:37 <mchua> Yes. Yes they will.
19:24:58 <kwurst> I think we're all set.
19:25:01 <mchua> Ok, moving on to tentative ones - and then I'd like to take some time at the end to look at the discussion topics for "broader POSSE stuff!" that's come up and figure out which ones we need to prioritize tackling.
19:25:11 * mchua preps another dump
19:25:14 <mchua> #topic Tentative POSSEs
19:25:14 <mchua> #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE#Tentative_POSSEs
19:25:14 <mchua> #info we have, in various stages of discussion/planning...  * POSSE Boston Design - August 2-6, 2010 * POSSE California Design - ?  * POSSE South Africa - October 3-8, 2010 * POSSE Manila 2010 in October 2010 * POSSE EMEA 2010 - Fall (Sep-Nov) 2010 sometime, date not set * POSSE Malaysia 2010 - 13-17 December 2010 * POSSE Kernel Hacking - no date set yet
19:25:20 <mchua> #info Design POSSE is still listed as tentative because Mo Duffy and I don't yet have a location, but it's a small pilot POSSE anyhow (it's the first non-CS POSSE) so we don't have to worry overmuch.
19:25:24 <mchua> micadeyeye, it sounds like POSSE SA is moving forward at a pretty rapid clip. :) how can we help, what questions do you have?
19:25:28 <mchua> mwhitehe: do you want to explain the kernel POSSE idea to the others here? I don't think we've hit the TOS list with it yet, so I'm not sure how many people know what the idea is.
19:25:32 <mchua> aaand... well, really, anyone else.
19:25:32 <mchua> (go!)
19:26:03 <mwhitehe> mchua: well, I think it is a variation of POSSE, but I will describe it
19:26:05 * gregdek waits for mwhitehe... :)
19:26:13 <mwhitehe> we can do it two ways
19:26:45 <mwhitehe> first, a typical POSSE event, which I'm led to believe is a one-week intensive seminar for professors. Is the correck, gregdek?
19:26:46 <micadeyeye> I presume you will be coming here. It would be great to have ctyler or dave around too.
19:26:58 <gregdek> mwhitehe, that's the model, yes.
19:27:15 <micadeyeye> It's going to be on FF, like others.
19:27:45 <mwhitehe> a second model that I'm discussing is having a Red Hat employee as a visiting instructor for a school semester
19:27:48 <mchua> micadeyeye: yep yep. http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE is the best descript we have available (afaik) but if there's info missing that you think should be on there in terms of explanation, that'd be a helpful thing to know. ;)
19:27:59 <mchua> whoops, mwhitehe ^
19:28:03 <micadeyeye> We already reaching out to other professors.
19:28:21 * ctyler looks up mwhitehe, sees "purple" as the name, wonders about a better symlink?
19:28:23 <micadeyeye> not necessarily within our school.
19:28:42 <mchua> micadeyeye: Ok - we need to make sure that a few things are lined up (instructors, etc.) before we put the Big POSSE Stamp Of Approval on it, but it sounds like things are going along very well in that direction, so I'm not too worried.
19:28:48 <mchua> micadeyeye: do you have instructors in mind?
19:28:52 <jadudm> mwhitehe: If you do a visitor, how does that grow the POSSE faculty community?
19:29:00 <mchua> #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_Instructors
19:29:02 <mchua> micadeyeye: ^
19:29:17 <mwhitehe> they would recruit instructors and students to keep the project sustained after the visiting instructor departs. This would require some budget from Red Hat, and also a firm plan of expected outcomes.
19:30:08 <micadeyeye> Yeah, two out of the first three.
19:30:17 <mwhitehe> jadudm: the visitor isn't responsible for the typical academic deliverables (research papers, teaching grad students, serving on university committees, etc), so they can work 100% on FOSSE goals.
19:30:30 <micadeyeye> I know you guys.
19:31:02 <ctyler> mwhitehe: we've been considering a developer-in-residence model here, which sounds a lot like what you're considering.
19:31:03 <mwhitehe> jadudm: so, they should be able to hand over to the tenure-track faculty a relatively mature program after a semester
19:31:18 <jadudm> True, but it sounds like the second plan is more about getting a small, local community working on a project more than getting more faculty from more institutions prepared to introduce students ...
19:31:19 <mwhitehe> ctyler: I think we have the same idea completely.
19:31:22 <jadudm> (lag)
19:31:50 <mwhitehe> gregdek: thoughts so far?
19:31:53 <mchua> micadeyeye: Okeydokey. Maybe that's something we should start figuring out on the list - so we can make sure those instructors will be able to come over, and that budget comes from somewhere to bring them over to SA, so we can grow the local instructor pool (starting with you. ;)
19:32:20 <mchua> micadeyeye: thanks *so* much for getting POSSE SA started, btw - you're doing a great job and I'm looking forward to making this happen in October.
19:32:34 <mchua> micadeyeye: (it'll be almost exactly a month from when we first started taking about it at TOSS in Toronto, heh :)
19:32:45 <micadeyeye> Thanks, that would be awesome.
19:33:02 <gregdek> mwhitehe, I think we understand the POSSE funding model well, but do not yet understand the prof-in-residence model.
19:33:12 <mchua> #action micadeyeye and mchua to start figuring out POSSE SA instructor logistics on the TOS list
19:33:34 <micadeyeye> yeah.
19:34:18 <gregdek> ctyler, how will you be doing your developer-in-residence model?
19:34:18 <mchua> so, in the interests of time here... mwhitehe, it sounds like there are two ideas on the table - the prof-in-residence model, which we can take to the TOS list and flesh out a bit more (or talk about here after the POSSE meeting, if you like)
19:34:24 <ctyler> gregdek: on the most basic level, dev-in-res means colocating a staff dev at a .edu, with a release (say 20%?) for community development and/or guest lecturing at the .edu
19:34:35 <mchua> mwhitehe: and then the notion of a kernel POSSE, which we should hash out here briefly if you're still interested in that
19:35:14 <mwhitehe> mchua: yes, I'm specifically interested in a kernel POSSE that is long-lived at an educational institution
19:36:35 <jcorneli> can I jump in with a "hey I'd like to help organize something like that at my institution!" now?
19:36:40 <mchua> mwhitehe: a recurring one-week bootcamp for professors interested in getting their students into kernel development? (because the "one week bootcamp" is, I'd say, central to the notion of POSSE... extending it into the dev-in-residence idea is super cool, but also not-a-POSSE. ;)
19:36:41 <jadudm> If something is called a POSSE, I'd personally like to see it be about growing/spreading community, not concentrating it in one location.
19:36:47 <mchua> jcorneli: yep yep, go for it.
19:37:11 <ctyler> jadudm: yes, I think dev-in-res and posse are different animals
19:37:27 <jadudm> ctyler: that's the short way to say it, yes. :)
19:38:00 <jcorneli> Unf. I'm not faculty, but maybe I can get some faculty folks here at The Open University UK on board.  I'd like some tips for evangelizing.  (I'm a 1st year research Ph. D. student w/ reasonable levels of Open Source / Open Content experience...)
19:38:08 <mchua> jcorneli: hooray! welcome!
19:38:10 <mwhitehe> mchua: S'okay if it is not-a-POSSE. we can have both just fine. One probably will beget the other
19:38:44 <jadudm> jcorneli: I know one or two people at the OU. My recommendation would be "get other people to help you evangalize first."
19:38:59 <jadudm> As a first-year PhD student, you will probably be encouraged to focus on your research, unless this is part of that direction.
19:38:59 <jcorneli> OK, send me the contact info.  I'm holtzermann17@gmail.com
19:39:09 <jcorneli> It is relevant to my research
19:39:52 <mchua> jcorneli: keep us up to date on what you're doing, though, so we can jump in if we see something that we can help with - you're on the TOS list, I think... are you on Planet?
19:39:53 <jadudm> jcorneli: Who are you working with?
19:40:34 <jcorneli> I'm at the Knowledge Media Institute, working with Peter Scott
19:41:03 <jcorneli> mchua: probably not on the Planet, will sign up for that
19:41:59 <mchua> jcorneli: it's pretty simple, http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/Planet_Feed_List has everything you need to know.
19:42:23 * mchua looks at the time, wants to make sure we save some of the remaining ~17m to look at broader POSSE topics we may want to discuss.
19:42:53 <mchua> Last thoughts/questions on tentative POSSEs or things people are thinking about? micadeyeye and I have some POSSE SA stuff to do on-list after this, and it sounds like jcorneli will be filling us in with some ideas as well
19:43:13 <mchua> and mwhitehe, ctyler, gregdek, myself, and others have a dev-in-residence idea kicking around that... mwhitehe, think you could start that off as a TOS list conversation?
19:43:33 <RITSteve> +!
19:43:37 <RITSteve> +1
19:44:16 <mchua> #action jcorneli introduce self to the TOS list with ideas on what you're thinking about at your institution
19:44:19 <mchua> jcorneli: there you go ;) ^^
19:44:32 <jcorneli> right
19:44:36 <mchua> #action mwhitehe ctyler gregdek start TOS list convo on dev-in-residence program
19:44:51 <mchua> Anything else?
19:45:22 <mchua> Okay, executive decision: moving on!
19:45:36 <mchua> #topic POSSE discussions we may want to have
19:45:55 <mchua> this one is really a free-for-all brainstorm - I've been hearing snatches of POSSE-related conversations about "the future of POSSE" and whatnot going around
19:46:05 <mchua> and wanted to start consolidating and actually going through them so those convos turn into action.
19:46:09 <mchua> #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_program_design#Future_discussion_topics
19:46:14 <mchua> has the stuff I've heard about so far.
19:46:20 <mchua> # generalizing the model to have non-RH funding sources
19:46:21 <mchua> # branching out into other disciplines such as technical writing and the liberal arts
19:46:24 <mchua> # how to better offer resources to POSSE alumni during the school year
19:46:27 <mchua> # a POSSE reunion at SIGCSE
19:46:30 <mchua> # how do we find out if POSSE is effective?
19:46:48 <mchua> Now, my question is: is there anything on this list we MUST discuss/figure out between now and, say, June 1st if they're to have an impact in the next calendar year?
19:46:54 <mchua> for instance, SIGCSE planning should probably start... now.
19:47:19 <mchua> But things like "generalizing the model to have non-RH funding sources" can easily wait until after the summer.
19:47:22 <mchua> (I think.)
19:47:27 <jadudm> If SIGCSE reunion has no official status at the conference, it requires no up-front planning.
19:47:33 <jadudm> If it requires a paper, deadline is end of Aug.
19:47:37 <mchua> Ouch.
19:47:43 <jadudm> If it requires a workshop, it requires... er, possibly Oct/Nov deadline.
19:47:47 <jadudm> Probably October..
19:47:52 <RITSteve> Assesment should as well.  If we want to know if POSSE is effective we should be having this summer's batch of students giving us permission to survey them down the road, and perhaps reporting the results of those surveys at SIGCSE
19:48:34 <micadeyeye> I agree with RITSteve.
19:48:35 <jadudm> #action develop a common interview protocol for POSSE graduates.
19:48:38 <jcorneli> question about the Planet feed -- do you want just "teaching open source" stuff or is "open source" in general OK?
19:48:38 <mchua> It seems like those two should feed into each other - POSSE paper/workshop should use some of that data on whether POSSE is effective, when we talk about the work we're doing and how it could be improved for Great Justice and all that.
19:48:41 <RITSteve> Can always do BOF session at CIGCSE, just need to ask for one, no big paper submission or anything
19:48:54 <kwurst> If you are going to survey people and report results, you may need to do IRB approvals.
19:48:57 <jadudm> Actually, here's an interesting thought:
19:48:59 <jadudm> You have to.
19:48:59 <mchua> jcorneli: TOS-focused, but we don't come after people with sticks if they post about something else once in a while. ;)
19:49:02 <jadudm> kwurst: Yes.
19:49:24 <jadudm> I think another discussion topic for TOS is to expand on this notion of data collection.
19:49:31 <RITSteve> Only need IRB approval if it comes deom a college
19:49:50 <jadudm> RITSteve: That sounds sketchy.
19:49:53 <RITSteve> Red Hat is the org offering all the posse's and can survey folks without an IRB
19:49:59 <jadudm> RITSteve: And, anyone working with the data must have IRB.
19:50:19 * mchua a little sketch about trying to get something published in a scholarly format sans IRB.
19:50:22 <kwurst> And, our IRB will say that if the data is collected here on campus, they must approve.
19:50:27 <jadudm> Yep.
19:50:56 <RITSteve> Red hat, as a commercial entity, has a right to survey customers on its products
19:51:11 <jadudm> I've been part of the Bootstrapping process (http://depts.washington.edu/bootstrp/), which is a good model for distributed research/data collection.
19:51:12 <gregdek> Is POSSE a product?  :)
19:51:17 <mchua> #info POSSE effectiveness assessment model (first step: IRB!) is the first thing on our list, followed by SIGCSE/any other academic fora we'd like to hit with a POSSE presence in the next year.
19:51:21 * jcorneli trying to decide what tags to use...
19:51:22 <mchua> POSSE != a product, imo.
19:51:27 <RITSteve> Surveys would obviously occur via e-mail after sessions, agreement to answer surveys part of posse sign up
19:51:37 <jadudm> gregdek: I can't work with human data as a faculty member at an institution that is federally funded without IRB clearance.
19:51:51 <jadudm> Otherwise, we'd all do our research by having companies collect the data for us.
19:51:53 <gregdek> So what do we all need to get IRB clearance?
19:51:57 <jadudm> Not much.
19:51:59 <RITSteve> Red hat can work with its own data anytime it wants to
19:51:59 <jadudm> I can provide pointers.
19:52:25 <kwurst> gregdek: It's not too hard since none of the participants is likely to be a minor.
19:52:33 <jadudm> RITSteve: Yes, but we can't. If we want to be part of helping build bridges with RH, and want to get the kudos for helping publish this work...
19:52:38 <RITSteve> IT is the commercial provider and POSSE is its product.  Colleges are merely the sites at  which they happen
19:53:09 <gregdek> kwurst, define "participants".  We did have a minor as a subject matter expert at our first POSSE...
19:53:10 <jadudm> Is there anyone else on this channel who has completed CITI training or similar w.r.t. human subjects research?
19:53:19 <kwurst> jadudm: I have.
19:53:23 <RITSteve> ANd therein lies the issues.  Is the point of research for Red hat to prove that POSSE works or for faculty POSSE participants to pad their resumes?
19:53:31 <jadudm> RITSteve: Good point.
19:53:42 <jadudm> RITSteve: Or, right... we might be talking across purposes.
19:53:54 <gregdek> RITSteve, is it possible to do both?
19:54:00 <RITSteve> If red hat wishes to prove that the training they offer as a commercial entity provides results they can do that
19:54:03 <gregdek> Because ideally, I think we want to do both.
19:54:05 <RITSteve> yes
19:54:10 <jadudm> "pad their resumes" is a bit harsh, really.
19:54:15 <mchua> RITSteve: Well, we'd like to prove that POSSE works (actually, it's "find out whether and how POSSE works") but the audience we'd like to persuade is academia.
19:54:24 <RITSteve> What I'm trying to avoid is POSSE having to involve itself with 37 different IRBs
19:54:33 <jadudm> Then we don't have 37 contributors.
19:54:36 <gregdek> Is an IRB a one-time cost?
19:54:39 <RITSteve> Right
19:54:41 <gregdek> Per institution?
19:54:42 <jadudm> Nope. Per-study.
19:54:44 <mchua> RITSteve: so in my mind, that's us entering into your world and playing by its rules... and if those rules involve IRBs and conference deadlines a year in advance, then that's the rules we need to play by when we're on your turf.
19:54:49 <jadudm> However, they follow a simple template.
19:54:51 <gregdek> Does each new instance of POSSE count?
19:54:57 <jadudm> Yes, but you copy the old forms.
19:55:04 <gregdek> Simple forms?
19:55:10 <jadudm> This will almost all be "exempt" or even likely "expedited" research.
19:55:13 <jadudm> Simple enough.
19:55:15 <gregdek> And what's the likelihood of not getting cleared?
19:55:17 <jadudm> I can provide examples from previous studies.
19:55:18 <RITSteve> After red hat collects the data they pick one or two academics to write the paper with and those academics work with their irbs, but only if needed
19:55:19 <jadudm> gregdek: High.
19:55:28 <mchua> jadudm: I think you mean "low."
19:55:35 <gregdek> And what's our fallback if they aren't cleared?
19:55:40 <jadudm> They'll clear.
19:55:45 <gregdek> OK.  :)
19:55:52 <mchua> gregdek: iow, the impression I get is "this is a formality but we still have to do it anyway in order to be proper."
19:55:55 <gregdek> Then it seems like a cost we should incur.
19:56:01 <jadudm> I mean, we're just talking about survey/interview data that won't endager jobs, and we're not doing placebo studies on pregnant POWs.
19:56:12 <gregdek> Rather, a cost that Mel should incur.  ;)
19:56:15 * mchua looks at the clock
19:56:20 <mchua> gregdek: :P
19:56:33 <kwurst> mchua: It'll look good on your resume.
19:56:37 <jadudm> #action jadudm summarize IRB process for TOS community, location to be determined by mchua
19:56:44 <mchua> kwurst: Especially if I'm applying for grad school. ;)
19:57:04 <RITSteve> So, which is it?  IRB at every school a POSSE happens at/with or only with the ones who will write the paper with RH later?
19:57:17 <jadudm> RITSteve: Only if you're working with the data will you need IRB.
19:57:29 <kwurst> Again, my school would argue that if the data is collected here, they need to approve.
19:57:30 <jadudm> In truth, there's a big gray area here.
19:57:36 <jadudm> That's probably true elsewhere.
19:57:53 <jadudm> if RH collects data and makes it "open," I don't know how IRBs handle that kind of thing.
19:57:58 <RITSteve> nless each institution wants IRB approval for RH to survey participants in their own training program
19:58:09 <gregdek> So there's a cost for two parties: the cost to mchua, and the cost to the liaison for each school.  Yes?
19:58:16 <jadudm> gregdek: possibly.
19:58:30 <mchua> So... we're running out of time.
19:58:31 <gregdek> Are they all simple templates?  Do we know?
19:58:33 <jadudm> Let me summarize things that I know, and dig around the CITI dogs.
19:58:40 <quaid> mchua: before we close the meeting, let's hit the top of the buffer and reenter missing bits before the logging.
19:58:53 <jadudm> s/dogs/docs/
19:59:43 <mchua> It sounds like we've got a clear first-step here, with the goal of being able to submit stuff to SIGCSE for a presence in Aug/Oct/Nov/Sep/whenever-the-deadline-is, and that the first step is "figure out how we can gather good data on POSSE participation effects," and that the first step for *that* (looking at it as a research project) is making sure we're doing everything right WRT IRB clearance.
19:59:44 <RITSteve> ALso suggest RH decide a scope before we proceed.  How many POSSE cohorts do they want to follow and which ones?
19:59:49 <mchua> quaid: agreed.
20:00:23 <mchua> RITSteve: All of last summer's (5 attendees 2 instructors) and all of this summer's POSSEs (CMU/Silicon Valley/Worcester/RIT) and after that we'll figure out whether we hit future POSSEs from there.
20:00:45 <jadudm> I need to chat with a student; will catch last in logs.
20:00:51 <jadudm> See you!
20:00:52 * mchua nods
20:01:09 <mchua> ...I was going to say that it sounds like jadum and I have the ball for the IRB discussion atm.
20:01:18 <RITSteve> mchua:  would cut it there so you actually have time to follow up on if you're shooting for next year's SIGCSE
20:01:21 <mchua> I'm at his house right now, so that's easy. :) I'll take notes and make sure our stuff is logged.
20:01:24 <mchua> RITSteve: Yeah, agreed.
20:01:40 <kwurst> I've been learning how to do the IRB stuff recently, so I can probably help.
20:01:45 <RITSteve> MCHUA: and yes, couldn't hurt that grad school app :-)
20:01:48 <mchua> #agreed first IRB/feedback scope to cut off after POSSE CMU this summer so we can submit to SIGCSE
20:02:08 <mchua> kwurst: Awesome, that would be a great help. I'll make sure that jadudm and I shoot everything we start out to the lists.
20:02:21 <mchua> We're out of time for this week - anything else before the official meeting bit closes?
20:02:38 <mchua> (and then quaid and I have to re-dump the beginning of the log in here so it's all in one place, and then there were a couple convos to pick up on...)
20:02:44 <kwurst> Do we have a time set for next week? Did I miss that at the beginning?
20:02:53 <quaid> mchua: how about if I scroll back and do that
20:02:58 <quaid> while you handle final discussion down here ...
20:03:00 <mchua> kwurst: that's the first thing I'm doing once the meeting closes, we've got our survey results in now
20:03:13 * quaid does that and cannot see now that he is scrolled up
20:03:21 <mchua> quaid: sounds good, thanks - holla a heads-up before the big dump so we don't interrupt y....nevermind.
20:03:27 <mchua> Closing comments?
20:03:40 <quaid> #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_program_design#Agenda
20:03:41 <mchua> (Wow, this was... really good. Thanks, everyone - there's a lot to do before meeting v.2.0....)
20:03:46 <quaid> #link http://whenisgood.net/h4qzfm
20:03:53 * mchua looks around
20:03:57 <mchua> closing in 5...
20:04:00 <mchua> 4...
20:04:01 <quaid> #link http://whenisgood.net/h4qzfm/results/dhbqyz
20:04:03 <mchua> 3...
20:04:03 <mwhitehe> mwhitehe: got disconnected from wireless
20:04:06 <mchua> 2...
20:04:21 <mwhitehe> mwhitehe: nothing to add, continue mchua
20:04:21 <mchua> mwhitehe: we're wrapping up right now but some of us are sticking around for afterparty discussions if you'd like to catch up
20:04:22 <quaid> #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE#Upcoming_POSSEs
20:04:34 <mchua> mwhitehe: and quaid is pulling in notes from before the time logging started.
20:04:38 <mchua> 1...
20:04:38 <quaid> action mchua et al pick meeting time based on survey results
20:04:41 <quaid> #action mchua et al pick meeting time based on survey results
20:04:51 <mchua> Okay, ---------- official meeting end --------------
20:05:11 <mchua> (logs remaining open for quaid to dump stuff in for another few minutes, and then I'll start the afterparty discussions once we close the logs.)
20:05:16 <mchua> thanks everyone!
20:05:35 <mchua> we'll send out a TOS list email as soon as we figure out the More Permanent Better Good Meeting Time That Sucks Less For Everyone
20:05:46 <RITSteve> One agenda item that got missed, was the POSSE "reunion" at SIGCSE.  IF it is meant to be a reunion, ie just former students and profs getting together to catch up, a bords of a feather session is exactly the right thing
20:05:46 <mchua> (which we should start any minute now, once the backscroll is dumped)
20:05:53 <kwurst> mchua: Good luck with that...
20:05:55 <mchua> RITSteve: wilco
20:06:12 <mchua> #info if POSSE reunion at SIGCSE is "just" a reunion, we can simply do a BoF and be just fine.
20:06:25 <mchua> kwurst: yeah, I know ;) thanks for coming by!
20:06:33 <quaid> #action mchua send current POSSE application stats to TOS list, apps are starting to come in
20:06:52 <quaid> #info RIT, Worcester, Silicon Valley (California) are all set and mostly need recruitment/publicity - so the question there is "how can professors/POSSE allies at/near the host school go reach out to local profs to get them to come?"
20:07:01 <RITSteve> If you want a panel of former students talking about the experience, as in the case of FOSSCon, that's something we'll have to go through normal process for
20:07:04 <quaid> #info CA POSSE waiting for date confirmation from host, but otherwise set, also needs participant recruitment
20:07:18 <quaid> #info CMU POSSE meeting on Friday (mchua, jadudm, kesden) to nail down details like "where on campus will we be" but is pretty much set, also needs participant recruitment
20:07:51 <RITSteve> bailing out.  Passover prep must be completed
20:07:59 <RITSteve> ...poof
20:08:03 <quaid> #action mchua crunch the POSSE budget numbers for spevack so we can see how much room we have to do things for each of this summer's POSSEs
20:08:20 <quaid> ok, I think that is it
20:08:30 <quaid> mchua: anything more?
20:09:20 <quaid> aphid: you available still?
20:09:20 <mchua> quaid: I think that's it.
20:09:26 <quaid> ok, I'm closing
20:09:29 <quaid> #endmeeting