02:38:42 <mchua> #startmeeting
02:38:42 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Sep 24 02:38:42 2009 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
02:38:42 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
02:38:52 <aho_> what about the attendees from the first POSSE?
02:38:55 <mchua> Great - now we have automatic logs from this channel.
02:39:25 <mchua> aho_: I'll send a note to them (some, like fardad_ and ctyler, are lurking here already) to let them know this is going on, and to see whether/how they'd like to participate or keep up to date
02:39:35 <aho_> mchua: can u give me an estimate on the flight tixs?
02:39:55 <mchua> aho_: I'm not sure what kind of response we'll get because that's shortly before Thanksgiving, which is a huge holiday here in the US, but we'll see.
02:39:58 <mchua> aho_: sure.
02:40:12 <mchua> #action mchua get an estimate for Mel and Greg's flights to SGP
02:40:17 <aho_> they want a holiday in SIngapore?
02:40:41 <aho_> ok...
02:40:47 <aho_> so is item 2 good?
02:40:52 <mchua> aho_: Probably not - I'm guessing that any participation we get from POSSE alumni is going to be remote.
02:41:10 <aho_> ok...
02:41:17 <mchua> aho_: If you're good with item #2, I'm good with item #2. It's on my plate and we've handled it before, so no worries.
02:41:18 <harish> but US thanksgiving is not until nov 26
02:41:33 <mchua> I'll send updates to the mailing list and we'll check in on it every week so you can make sure it's still going ok. ;)
02:41:51 <mchua> harish: Yep, and many colleges will take the whole week off for thanksgiving break
02:42:09 <harish> mchua, yes, of course
02:42:18 <mchua> harish: meaning that the 2-3 weeks before the break are pretty frantic (and not a good time to be out of the country / jetlagged)
02:42:29 * harish loves thanksgiving!
02:42:45 <harish> mchua, sure
02:42:58 * mchua <3 thanksgiving. It's also the weekend of my brother's birthday; I'll probably be flying from SGP to home to greet him.
02:43:01 <mchua> anyhow, item 3?
02:43:41 <mchua> And for the various groups organizing (at Red Hat and Nanyang Polytech), in terms of... the first part is "how we need to prepare"
02:43:54 <aho_> the lab is already booked
02:44:08 <aho_> I'm getting a costing for the accommodation
02:44:20 <mchua> For those of us gathered here, it's pretty clear; we've got our 5am/pm weekly meetings, our task list is growing and has clear assignments (haven't set deadlines for anything yet, though)
02:44:40 <mchua> (by default, most things will be due at the meeting after they're brought up)
02:44:49 <aho_> estimated to be SGD 450 for a week for an apartment
02:44:51 <mchua> aho_: Do our hosts at Nanyang Poly know what they need to set up?
02:45:06 <harish> aho_, apartment that can house 3 persons
02:45:07 <aho_> nope..they don't
02:45:20 <harish> mchua, i will brief them
02:45:23 <aho_> but the lab has projectors
02:45:32 <aho_> and the stuff which is meant for teaching
02:45:37 <harish> they have the tech - just need to add the software
02:45:45 <mchua> #action harish to brief Nanyang Poly contacts on their responsibilities
02:45:50 <mchua> awesome.
02:46:01 <mchua> harish: do you have everything you need to know to brief them?
02:46:05 <aho_> harish and NYP - good friends
02:46:13 <harish> aho_, :-)
02:46:17 * mchua grins
02:46:20 <harish> yes, i sit on the IT advisory committee
02:46:24 <harish> of nyp
02:46:45 <mchua> what's the arrangement with NYP? What do they get out of the deal?
02:47:07 <mchua> it's wonderful of them to host us, so I want to do whatever we can do to make them happy. ;)
02:47:14 <aho_> they just want send two attendees for POSSE
02:47:23 <aho_> they are our RHA partner
02:47:36 <aho_> so they are supporting any open source movement
02:48:10 <mchua> Great. So it would be a bonus, then, for POSSE to bring awareness (and hopefully enrollment) to their RHA program?
02:48:14 <aho_> in our press release, we do talk about them
02:48:15 <nb> mchua, done :)
02:48:36 <mchua> aho_: Yep, I see now why you wrote about that in the press release.
02:48:47 <mchua> nb: ahh, you sent zodbot over - thanks!
02:49:06 <nb> mchua, yeah, i saw mmcgrath in #fedora-admin and asked him to do so
02:49:16 <mmcgrath> .ping
02:49:16 <zodbot> pong
02:49:19 <mmcgrath> mchua: ^^
02:49:53 * mchua <3 fedora infrastructure team
02:50:06 <mchua> ...er, moving on.
02:50:20 <aho_> yeah...next on the list?
02:50:49 <mchua> 3.2 - what we're expecting to get out of it
02:51:13 <mchua> for NYP, it sounds like harish is the liason for that relationship and will find out more on that soon.
02:51:44 <mchua> from my perspective (and CommArch's perspective) this is the next step in the POSSE program, which is a big part of our education strategy.
02:52:01 <mchua> We're using POSSE as the on-ramp for participation in the teachingopensource.org community
02:52:17 <aho_> I have been talking to the region
02:52:20 <mchua> (hence the name of this channel - POSSE is a TOS project)
02:52:30 <aho_> and India wants to bring this to India next
02:52:43 <mchua> Great!
02:52:54 <aho_> we do need to have a plan...
02:53:07 <aho_> and it will be great if we can have cross border exchanges
02:53:07 <harish> mchua, while I sit on their IT advisory committee, I am cognizant to keep that separate from Red Hat as a business. But then again, they all know my stand on the use and adoption (or lack thereof) of open source in singapore schools.
02:53:25 <mchua> From the CommArch side, we're looking for long-term gains with short-term promise.
02:53:49 <mchua> It's a mindshare thing more than anything else - creating more future opportunities because more people (students, teachers) are "thinking open source."
02:54:08 <aho_> yes...
02:54:25 <mchua> One measure of that is "how many teachers are teaching open source in their classes?" and the conversation between those teachers should be happening on TOS (teachingopensource.org) as it's a community devoted to exactly that.
02:54:50 <aho_> is there any change to link this with possible technology exchanges?
02:55:12 <mchua> POSSE is a recruitment/training tool for participation in that community, and in whatever open source project communities the lecturers decide to get their class involved with.
02:55:30 <mchua> (For this POSSE, we'll be showing them how to get involved in Fedora.)
02:55:45 <mchua> (And hopefully some other projects also, but that's where we know we've got the ability to teach right now with the people we have.)
02:55:52 <mchua> aho_: Technology exchanges?
02:56:31 <aho_> I'm thinking of how to get universities to be open...
02:56:40 <harish> aho_, ?
02:57:05 <mchua> Not sure yet what you're describing, but I'm intrigued.
02:57:09 <aho_> projects initiatives contribute by prof/lecturers from different countries
02:57:47 <mchua> You mean having multiple lecturers from different countries contributing to the same project - Fedora, for example?
02:57:54 <aho_> the intention is to have a "global" outcome
02:58:05 <aho_> well...fedora is an example
02:58:24 <mchua> (We're recommending that they join an existing project rather than start one from scratch, for several reasons, btw)
02:58:33 * mchua can elaborate on those reasons if needed
02:58:39 <aho_> i do want ensure the attendees have a vision after the course
02:59:13 <aho_> hmmm...thinking of a POSSE outcome...
02:59:27 <aho_> so we teach them how to fish...
02:59:28 <mchua> I would love it if groups of profs got together and linked their visions up
02:59:37 <aho_> now is whether they can catch the fish
02:59:44 <mchua> one class contributes a module and another class does QA for it, etc.
02:59:52 <aho_> yeah...
03:00:09 <aho_> and they can pass it on to the students getting them to do that
03:00:21 <mchua> and a third writes documentation for it, and a fourth does marketing of the new feature.
03:00:24 * mchua nods
03:00:51 <mchua> +1 on encouraging lecturers to think about collaborating after POSSE week when they go back to their home institutions
03:00:59 <mchua> big, big +1
03:01:36 <mchua> aho_, harish, jee: from your perspective, what would make this a successful POSSE?
03:02:02 <mchua> you've heard ours (more professors participating in the TOS community - teaching courses or otherwise)
03:02:15 <harish> mchua, a) we have cross border projects identified and kicked off b) we have interest enough to run a second and third iteration
03:03:04 <mchua> harish: ok, so maybe a way of doing (b) is to see if we can get any attendees from this POSSE interested in planning POSSEs at their home institutions
03:03:09 <harish> one of the desired outcomes would be for the participants to realize that it is not about *their* school per se, but it is them and their students becoming participants in this global movement
03:03:12 <mchua> in addition to the interest from India
03:03:16 <mchua> harish: +1
03:03:31 <mchua> (though it's great for their school as well ;)
03:03:53 <harish> well, it is all dependent on the politics and egos of these academics
03:04:18 <mchua> mmm, academic politics.
03:04:25 <aho_> we need to ensure everyone enter with an open mind
03:04:34 <mchua> (ctyler may have insight on this part)
03:04:35 <harish> we can use POSSE to emphasize the need for collaboration that goes beyond the school per se
03:04:40 * mchua nods
03:05:03 <harish> that would need to be emphasized from minute one.
03:05:07 <mchua> one of the things I'd be interested in watching for, in the application essays/pre-attendance surveys, is an indication of how they're thinking about this at the start
03:05:11 <mchua> so we know where we have to work from
03:05:36 <mchua> and one of the things we need to be thinking about throughout the week is how to give them the ammo they need to be ambassadors when they go back
03:05:37 <harish> mchua, was there an essay that was asked for in the first POSSE?
03:05:47 <mchua> harish: Yes, I'll find it and send it to the list
03:06:00 <mchua> #action mchua to find and send original POSSE application/survey to the list
03:06:25 <harish> aho_, jee we should gualify the participants with an essay-ish document to find out why they would want to participate in this program.
03:06:29 <mchua> for instance, I know Greg wrote letters to some of the professors' deans, thanking them for their institution's participation in this important event
03:06:40 <aho_> i might have language issue
03:06:43 <harish> mchua, but that was after the fact
03:06:46 <mchua> (except that, being Greg, he did it far more eloquently than that)
03:07:04 <harish> aho_, well, let's shoot for english for now
03:07:05 <aho_> 15 chinese lecturers might have problem
03:07:06 <ctyler> mchua: http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_Pre-event_Survey
03:07:12 <mchua> harish: yes, and I think it should be
03:07:20 <mchua> ctyler: thanks!
03:07:30 <mchua> harish: nevermind that action item then. :)
03:08:01 <mchua> #link http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_Pre-event_Survey
03:08:05 <mchua> (for zodbot)
03:08:22 <harish> aho_, if they can write it in Chinese and get it looked over by RH China, then we can still work with them.
03:08:45 <mchua> harish: it was about giving individual professors what they needed to be an effective ambassador in their particular school; we didn't promise that at the beginning of POSSE as a "benefit of attending POSSE"
03:08:51 <aho_> that can be done
03:09:29 <harish> mchua, sure.
03:10:00 <mchua> harish, aho_: this is a topic to bring up next Monday, but do you forsee localization being an issue?
03:10:16 <harish> mchua, but then again, just as we ask why they should be attending, what would the "benefit of attending POSSE" be articulated to be?
03:10:25 <aho_> listening and reading is fine...
03:10:26 <mchua> we have cross border projects identified and
03:10:26 <mchua> kicked off b) we have interest enough to run a second and
03:10:32 <aho_> writing can be a challenge
03:10:40 <ctyler> If I can make a gentle comment: there's a lot of discussion here about being an ambassador, but to be an ambassador you have to come from a community. Getting the POSSE participants to become fully embedded in, and active participants of, one or more open source communities is critical.
03:10:42 <mchua> #info success criteria from NYP: harish to find out
03:11:10 <ctyler> So I think POSSE needs to equip the participants to do that quickly and effectively.
03:11:13 <mchua> #info success criteria from APAC: (1) cross border projects identified, (2) enough interest to run a 2nd and 3rd iteration of POSSE (see if we can get attendees interested in being host institutions)
03:12:05 <harish> ctyler, and if they are not in a community, would that be a hinderance? can we have a newbie mode?
03:12:14 <mchua> #info success criteria from CommArch: (1) more participants/classes in the TOS community (2) a "How to plan a POSSE" guide to be written afterwards
03:12:23 * mchua finishes pumping stuff into the bot...
03:12:26 * mchua reads scrollback
03:13:17 <mchua> ctyler speaketh wisdom.
03:13:18 <ctyler> I think that moving them into an active role within a O/S community should be one of your success criteria. Teaching by studying the community from outside is not nearly as effective as doing it on the inside.
03:13:28 <mchua> ctyler, how well do you think that worked out during the first POSSE?
03:14:18 <ctyler> POSSE was the first step. We need to see if the seedlings take root.
03:14:49 <harish> ctyler, so the seedlings should be there prior to POSSE.
03:15:19 <ctyler> harish: not necessarily -- we tried to equip the participants to join a community during POSSE
03:15:59 <harish> ctyler, sweet.
03:16:07 <ctyler> Spent a lot of time on communication, learning the structure of the community, how not to be overwhelmed and to work effectively despite the large codebases and established customs (which can be very intimidating).
03:16:19 <mchua> We had a very small sample size, but I don't know that many of this summer's POSSE profs had a community in mind when they arrived.
03:16:28 <mchua> an open source project community, I mean.
03:16:38 <mchua> I think Fardad, with OpenOffice, may have actually been the only one
03:16:53 <mchua> I remember Christian and Matt actively saying "just put us wherever you think will be best," or something of that sort.
03:17:15 <mchua> If we're going with Fedora as The Project for this POSSE, it might be good to send them intro material beforehand.
03:17:23 <ctyler> Right. Doing it over, I think I'd put more emphasis on picking one community and going deep with it, rather than being spread too thin or going too general.
03:17:28 * mchua nods.
03:18:18 <harish> ctyler, as a group or letting each individual choose a project?
03:18:42 <mchua> Let's go with Fedora as the primary project for this round; I'll also email the TOS list and say "if you want a POSSE for your project..." and start up a page where they can begin adapting exercises to their particular projects.
03:19:02 <harish> mchua, good idea
03:19:36 <mchua> And at the end of the week, we'll have a virtual session (or an Opening Of The Email List, at least) where people from other projects can come in and introduce themselves
03:19:51 <ctyler> Within a class led by a prof, I strongly favor having all of the students work within one project; you may want to do the same with POSSE. At the July one, we focused in on two communities, but didn't shepherd the students specifically into those communities (rather used them as examples).
03:19:54 <mchua> "You've done it in Fedora... now do it for Mozilla!" "If you're interested in working on Trac instead..." (etc)
03:20:07 <mchua> ctyler: I'd like to try that diff for this round.
03:20:49 <mchua> As the curriculum point person for this POSSE, I'll mark that...
03:20:59 <ctyler> Sounds good, especially if the participants don't already have a community connection (e.g., as Matt did in July).
03:21:21 <mchua> #agreed Fedora will be the primary project we work to bring lecturers into for this POSSE, with an opportunity for other projects to introduce themselves at the end.
03:21:28 <mchua> #action mchua to begin gathering "Intro to Fedora" resources
03:21:49 <mchua> #action mchua to send a note to TOS about opportunities for other projects to introduce themselves at the end of this POSSE
03:21:58 <harish> so if we send out "if you want a POSSE for your project..." request a la GSOC call for projects, then we have a good starting point.
03:23:05 <mchua> harish: Yep; the GSoC-like call-for-projects will be at the end ("you've seen how awesome this was for Fedora, don't you want this for your project too?") (hopefully) but it's always good to forewarn people
03:23:36 <mchua> #action mchua to give TOS a heads-up that we'll be calling for projects for future POSSEs at the end of this one
03:23:42 * mchua looks at time
03:23:43 <mchua> yikes
03:24:11 <mchua> harish, aho_, jee: think we can wrap up in 15min?
03:24:19 <harish> sure
03:24:30 <mchua> things we have left to go through:
03:24:37 <mchua> # what lecturers will get out of this
03:24:37 <harish> it's getting close to lunch time anyway :-)
03:24:42 <mchua> # follow-up plans
03:24:50 <mchua> # division of responsibilities
03:25:00 <mchua> # press coverage
03:25:03 <mchua> # curriculum
03:25:04 <mchua> # budget
03:25:09 <aho_> actually...I need to go in 5 min
03:25:31 <mchua> aho_: Any of these that you want done before you go?
03:25:40 <aho_> budget I will handle
03:25:44 <mchua> for division of responsibilities, if this works, we're set:
03:25:46 <mchua> 1.  RH APAC: Logistics, funding, marketing, PR, attendee recruitment
03:25:49 <aho_> I will talk to jee on PR
03:25:49 <mchua> 2. RH CommArch: Instructor recruitment, curriculum, schedule, actual running-of-the-classrooms
03:26:15 <mchua> (with participation/planning on the list so others can join in and take things off our plates if they would like ;)
03:26:23 <aho_> the responsibilities assignment is fine
03:26:40 <mchua> ok. curriculum I've got, we're reusing this summer's, adapted for Fedora-centric focus
03:26:58 <mchua> follow up and what-lecturers-will-get can wait 'till Monday
03:27:18 <mchua> I think we are done here.
03:27:32 <mchua> Or at least I don't have anything that can't wait until Monday. ;)
03:28:11 <harish> ctyler, is there something that you'd think could have been better done from the last ocassion?
03:29:00 <aho_> ok...sorry...gtg
03:29:02 <mchua> actually, we should probably just do this
03:29:06 <aho_> we chat again on monday
03:29:08 * ctyler will think on that one
03:29:11 <mchua> #action mchua ask prior POSSE attendees for feedback and thoughts ;)
03:29:24 <mchua> aho_: see you Monday - thanks!
03:29:31 <harish> ok. gotta go as well.
03:29:33 * mchua needs to go soon also; it's getting late
03:29:38 <mchua> have a great lunch, folks.
03:29:46 <harish> nite-nite
03:29:51 * mchua waves
03:29:56 <mchua> #endmeeting