16:00:00 <inode0> #startmeeting FAmSCo Townhall
16:00:00 <zodbot> Meeting started Sun May 27 16:00:00 2012 UTC.  The chair is inode0. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:00 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:59 <inode0> #meetingname FAmSCo Townhall
16:00:59 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco_townhall'
16:01:15 <zodbot> inode0: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress.
16:01:25 <inode0> ok, fine then :)
16:01:38 <inode0> #topic Protocal
16:01:46 <inode0> Welcome everyone. The protocol we will be following today is that questions will be collected in #fedora-townhall-public by the moderator and relayed to the candidates in #fedora-townhall.
16:02:05 <inode0> The questions will be numbered so that the candidates may include the numbers in their responses. Candidates may answer whenever they are ready, no set order will be followed.
16:02:21 <inode0> #topic Introductions
16:02:29 <inode0> Before we begin I'd like to ask the candidates to introduce themselves briefly while we collect some initial questions.
16:03:46 <cwickert> Hi, I am Christoph Wickert, long time Fedora contributor, packager, sponsor, ambassador, spins wrangler and current FAmSCo chair.
16:03:48 <cwickert> EOF
16:04:36 <sesivany> Hi, I'm Jiri Eischmann and I'm a community manager in Red Hat Czech and Fedora ambassador for the Czech Republic, more about me at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Eischmann
16:04:42 <sesivany> eof
16:04:45 <arifiauo> Hi, I am Arif Tri Waluyo. I'm Indonesian people. I am now active as an ambassador, and several other sub-projects.
16:04:49 <arifiauo> eof
16:05:09 <tuanta> hi, I am Tuan from Vietnam, Fedora ambassador, co-chair in APAC bi-weekly meetings, packager and some other stuffs
16:05:10 <tuanta> eof
16:05:12 <aeperezt> Alejandro Pérez Fedora contributor, Ambassador Panama, locatization, packager
16:05:15 <aeperezt> eof
16:05:26 <danielbruno> My name is Daniel Bruno, I'm from Brazil, fedora contributor since 2008, packager, mentor of latam ambassadors, and work in the latam infra
16:05:28 <danielbruno> eof
16:05:30 <herlo> I am Clint Savage. I've been around Fedora since 2007 and have been involved in docs, design, packaging, ambassadors (of course) and infrastructure. I enjoy long walks on the beach and hacking python code as well :)
16:05:35 <herlo> eof
16:07:37 * inode0 waits a minute for nb and bckurera to introduce themselves
16:07:55 <bckurera> I am Buddhika Kurera(bckurera) from Sri Lanka, contributing with some fedora groups. More info please refer to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Bckurera
16:07:55 <bckurera> eof
16:09:08 <inode0> #topic Questions & Answers
16:09:16 <inode0> 1 (nirik) Do you have any new directions or changes planned for ambassadors? Or do you think we should keep doing what we have been doing, just better?
16:11:44 <tuanta> 1. I think it could be better if ambassadors understand Fedora project, Fedora community  and Fedora as an operating system as much as possible since they are faces of Fedora
16:12:20 <tuanta> they should join into other groups before
16:12:22 <tuanta> eof
16:12:25 <herlo> I think the previous FAmSCo made quite a few changes (one is this election) that will make things better overall. Allowing all fedora contributors to be involved in elections is also a big step forward to better representing Fedora. As for this term, I hope to reduce the barriers to joining by clearing up language and making hte process easier overall. Additionally, I think we could do more to help ambassadors to promote Fedora as a distribution and a
16:12:31 <herlo> eof
16:12:55 <cwickert> 1. I think the ambassadors should continue doing what they currently do, this means go to events and talk to people. But we should have more ambassadors who are not only ambassadors but active in other projects within Fedora. Having *better* ambassadors means to be more convincing. I think quality is more important than quantity. EOF
16:13:36 <bckurera> 1. FAms doing good, we can make it better. I personally seek some more interaction at FAmSCo level. The first thing FAmSCo should be more supportive body, more sensitive to FAms needs. More involvement with FAms are required from the regional level, country level if possible.
16:13:39 <bckurera> eof
16:14:05 <sesivany> 1) I wouldn't change the direction much, just improve some aspects of our ambassador program. As I already stated in my answers in the questionnaire, I'd like to improve cooperation between ambassadors and other groups in Fedora. Mainly flow of information so that ambassadors can know what's important for other groups, what they're working on,... and convey that information to the community.
16:14:17 <sesivany> eof
16:15:09 <aeperezt> there is always room for improvement, famsco needs to work on improve communication with actual ambassadors see how we can make their live easy to represent fedora
16:15:24 <arifiauo> 1. Overall ambassador is pretty good. Maybe the first time I would like to improve is the mentoring. Because it's the beginning of how people can contribute to the ambassador or not.
16:15:31 <aeperezt> eof
16:15:53 <arifiauo> eof
16:16:05 <danielbruno> I think we should encourage more participation of the ambassadors, we have a lot of people, but contributions are very focused on some people, and we have a way to measure it, it might help those who are in the inertia
16:16:12 <danielbruno> eof
16:17:06 <inode0> If I move on too fast please number your responses to indicate which question you are answering ...
16:17:16 <inode0> 2 (FranciscoD)  What do you think can be done to attract more people to fedora, as users and contributors? Ambassadors are the face of fedora. Are there any activities we should focus on?
16:22:06 <cwickert> 2. Frankly speaking I don't know if we really need *more* people, we need the *right* people. Say we need designers or developers, we go out to events where designers and developers are instead of events where people just sit at their booth. We would send some of our designers to events like Libre Graphics Meeting or some developers to Desktop Summit because they are more convincing than an "all-purpose" ambassador.
16:22:21 <cwickert> 2. We should focus on events where shit gets done and have clearly defined goals than trying to attract *everybody* and hope we by accident get a few good people.
16:22:53 <cwickert> 2. Note that this depends on the regions. In some regions we have more than enough people, in others we are grateful about every new ambassador.
16:22:55 <cwickert> EOF
16:23:07 <arifiauo> 2. 2. Currently Fedora Project already has a sub-project that can accommodate people with various talents. To attract people to join the Fedora ambassador. I think the best way to make Fedora Project is a comfortable place for everyone. Guidelines that detail how to join, provides guidance on how to contribute, giving the freedom to express and develop ideas, provide the required response to community, providing a variety of communications medi
16:23:08 <arifiauo> a. So people will not run out of places to ask for help or ask questions. And finally people are beginning only the user, would be interested in contributing. Regarding Fedora visibility, I think this is how we are. Freedom. Friends. Features. First. Ambassadors have to focus on anything that has a relationship, either directly or indirectly to the general public.
16:23:09 <bckurera> EOF
16:23:14 <tuanta> 2. I would tell people how exciting/funny Fedora community is; they should join with us to do great work; Beside that, I would try to contribute as much as possible as an ambassador as well as in other groups; people will see me and think about what I told them. I would contribute to Fedora as well as other FOSS community in the absolutely *freedom* way and help newbies to do the same things. By this way, I convinced some more good/active people jo
16:23:15 <tuanta> in into and conitrite to Fedora
16:23:15 <arifiauo> eof
16:23:15 <tuanta> eof
16:23:19 <danielbruno> 2. I think we should work more regionalization of Fedora, in that it has a good website with information geared to every region and major countries, and also suggestions and define goals should be done in events.
16:23:20 <bckurera> 2. To attract more people to Fedora we need to have a place, a group where they can hang on. Not much formal contribution but just a place to experience the Fedora way. Later they may be end-up by being good contributors. Most of the time people try to get engage with the FAm team and get fail. They leave Fedora. But if there is a place to hang on and experience Fedora rather than FAms we can attract more people. I have be
16:23:20 <danielbruno> eof
16:23:35 <tuanta> s/conitrite/contribute
16:23:53 <herlo> 2) I believe that lowering barriers to joining ambassadors is a big step forward. I find that the while the process is well defined, it's not clear to some potential ambassadors and even some mentors. I hope to clear this up as one initiative. Additionally, I do feel that more organized and well-defined events which encourage ambassadors to get involved in their local community and region is another simple thing that can be done. I'm considering promot
16:24:00 <aeperezt> 2 Ambassadors needs to be involve in some other area of Fedora many do, and lead with sample show everyone that they can do be part of something not just users, we need ambassadors to be present in all technology events in every country we need to show more Fedora and Linux, there is where famsco can help with resources to do it
16:24:00 <herlo> eof
16:24:02 <aeperezt> eof
16:24:12 <sesivany> 2) we should be as visible as possible. It means to cover as many events (conferences, LUGs, university events) as possible. It would be a good idea to find a way to teach ambassadors how to promote Fedora, how to present its strong characteristics etc. What I have found particularly effective are local (localized) Fedora sites. We started one in the Czech Republic a year ago and the results have been great so far. Users seem
16:24:34 <sesivany> ...uage and from their country's perspective. Fedoraproject.org should be the center of everything, but it's not enough. Starting and maintaining local Fedora sites would be a good way for ambassadors to attract more people.
16:24:38 <sesivany> eof
16:24:43 <bckurera> 2. To attract more people to Fedora we need to have a place, a group where they can hang on. Not much formal contribution but just a place to experience the Fedora way. Later they may be end-up by being good contributors. Most of the time people try to get engage with the FAm team and get fail. They leave Fedora. But if there is a place to hang on and experience Fedora rather than FAms we can attract more people.
16:24:53 <bckurera> I have been working to shape Fedora Campus Ambassadors some days back. I would be working to make it happen may be a separate group or shaping the Campus Ambassador group. But attracting more people to Fedora project is a must and we need to work on that. This may not be more specific to FAmSCo level but if there is a place FAms can promote it and ask students to join with the group, rather than apply for the FAm group fir
16:24:56 <bckurera> EOF
16:27:25 <inode0> 3 (FranciscoD) The duties of an ambassador are quite well defined. We go out and promote fedora. It isn't mandatory for ambassadors to join other fedora sub teams either. Do you think we need to encourage ambassadors to join other teams to improve their knowledge on fedora? For instance, if someone comes up to an ambassador and asks for troubleshooting help, what should an ambassador do?
16:29:00 <herlo> 3) One thing to consider here is that an ambassador should have a broad knowledge of the Fedora Project, but probably not an expert in all things. I would say that knowing *where* to look is more important than knowing how to fix something.
16:29:35 <cwickert> 3. I fully agree we should encourage membership in other teams and not only in the ambassadors group. This is why we have widened the group of eligbile FAmSCo voters. If more people vote, they probably vote for someone they know from working with him/her in another project.
16:29:38 <herlo> 3) to that end, it could be very useful for an ambassador to spend time with many groups rather than just ambassadors as it just takes time to know where some questions can get answered.
16:29:43 <herlo> eof
16:31:09 <cwickert> 3. I like to have people with a broad knowledge of Fedora cause for me the ambassadors are not a beginners group. However I don't want to make membership in another project mandatory. We had some good people who first were ambassadors and then joined other teams.
16:31:26 <danielbruno> 3. An ambassador does not necessarily have a deep technical knowledge, but should know where to find the answers and point the way to one who asks. About to join other subprojects, I believe this should be encouraged.
16:31:28 <danielbruno> eof
16:31:55 <tuanta> 3. ambassadors should be highly recommended to join into other sub teams (I personally think this should be mandatory); as I mentioned above, the more they are active in other teams, the better they are in ambassadors task; people see me as an Fedora contributor; if I am more active, I can represent for Fedora better
16:31:57 <tuanta> eof
16:32:17 <arifiauo> 3. Very nice if a ambassador understands all about Fedora, so when someone asks about something. He was immediately able to answer. But it's not a requirement, which certainly is an ambassador must know where he directs a person who needs help if he can not provide the required assistance.
16:32:20 <arifiauo> eof
16:32:54 <cwickert> 3. To answer the question: If somebody comes to you and you cannot answer his question, you should admit you don't know instead of just telling some generic BS. But there should be another ambassadors able to help. In a perfect world we had ambassadors from most teams at an event and for most events this already works very well. EOF.
16:33:22 <cwickert> s/most events/big events
16:33:38 <sesivany> 3) I'm not sure if forcing ambassadors to join other groups would solve the problem. Fedora consists of tens of subprojects. How many groups could one person be a solid member of? It wouldn't help them cover the knowledge of Fedora much. But I don't want to discourage ambassadors to do so, rather the opposite, just forcing is not a good way. I'd rather encourage members of other groups to become ambassadors.
16:34:06 <tuanta> 3. I mean, when I am telling people: I am a Fedora ambassador, people can ask me anything about Fedora then I need know how/where to get the answers. eof
16:35:16 <bckurera> 3. I strongly recommend FAms to contribute to other Fedora sub-groups. That will give more exposure to the Fedora project and knowledge. More over the knowledge on every sub-team would be good to have because when we introduce Fedora to public they may be interesting to know.
16:35:18 <bckurera> EOF
16:35:30 <aeperezt> 3. Sure is better if an ambassador is member of other groups but it must not be a requirement, it will limit the new ambassadors membership and some people that are great ambassadors don't have the technical skills to participate in other groups, some learn that within Fedora as ambassadors. But the need to know as much as possible about Fedora, that part should be task for the mentors to have strong ambassadors EOF
16:35:40 <sesivany> 3) when asked a question about Fedora? Well, if you know the answer, then answer, otherwise point that person to a place where he can find the solution. That's what ambassadors should know.
16:36:10 <inode0> 4 (dan408) How do you plan to improve SWAG?
16:38:52 <cwickert> 4. Improving swag can mean a lot, say making it easier to produce swag for ambassadors without too much legal requirements and faster reimbursements. We cannot change the leagel requirements that come with the Fedora trademark, but we need to make the process easy for ambassadors. That's why I am currently working on the "Swag inventory", a list of items with vendor, point of contact, etc. Reimbursements can be improved, too.
16:39:09 <herlo> 4) Improving SWAG is a challenge in and of itself, however there are some things that can be done by FAmSCo to make SWAG consistently good across regions. While I enjoy having quite a broad choice for SWAG, I think the more important thing is to try to standardize colors, designs and such so that it is easier to manage across regions.
16:40:44 <cwickert> 4. but when it comes to "better" or more "exclusive" swag, there is not much we can do. We have no legal entity to collect money, this means we need to give away everything for free and cannot produce fancy stuff like laptop bags or baseball caps because they are too expensive. and I doubt they will bring us new contributors. Nobody will join Fedora because he got a free shirt.
16:41:22 <herlo> 4) To that end, having a list of 'recommended' SWAG for each region or something to that effect would be very useful. This would also help lower barriers for holding events and having something to give away. In North America, I helped design the Ambassador Kit (search the wiki) which originally included certain components (t-shirt, stickers, pens, etc) that an ambassador could request via trac. It works really well for small presentations or 'on the st
16:41:29 <herlo> eof
16:41:42 <sesivany> 4) I think we should start at the beginning of the chain - artworks. Many things on wiki are out-dated and there are not many up-to-date artworks to make swag from. That's what FAmSCo should work on with Design Team. When this is fixed we can work on stuff such as faster reimbursement, distribution etc. eof
16:41:44 <cwickert> 4. Contributors or users on the other hand should have a place to buy cool stuff and this is why I want the legal entity back. We had one in EMEA already but had to close it down. I think we should give it another try and I am willing to work on that. EOF
16:41:56 <tuanta> 4. I live in APAC then I would tell you what I think in my region. APAC is a bit different from other regions (NA, Europe. etc.) since there are some big barriers here, including: high shipping costs and import/tax issues. I think the best way is producing swag locally in each country or a each small group of countries where those issues are not available; swag could be also produced in big events such FUDCon where a lot people attend and they can
16:41:57 <tuanta> bring them back to their countries.
16:41:57 <tuanta> eof
16:42:37 <bckurera> 4. Improving swags depends on region to region, country to country. In APAC we produce them locally most of time. Therefore we have introduced a very convenient method to get funding. Open a ticket, get it discussed in the APAC meeting, approval, and you will be having money so that you can produce them locally. Producing centrally(like in EMEA/ NA) and distributing them is not suitable for APAC. This is the practice to re
16:42:38 <bckurera> EOF
16:42:42 <arifiauo> 4. swag is important in an activity. But it could happen if all basic needs are met. In my opinion, swag is more effective when made ​​locally because then swag could better reflect the local culture mixed in with the theme of Fedora. Although we must hold onto the trademark guidelines.
16:42:45 <arifiauo> eof
16:43:20 <herlo> I got cut off, My last line was: In North America, I helped design the Ambassador Kit (search the wiki) which originally included certain components (t-shirt, stickers, pens, etc) that an ambassador could request via trac. It works really well for small presentations or 'on the street' interactions.
16:45:19 <herlo> eof
16:45:19 <danielbruno> 4. I think we should standardize what should be done in some past cases had several problems with this, and have a swag forecast for each region.
16:45:22 <danielbruno> eof
16:45:37 <inode0> jumping a bit out of order to get a couple more questions before we end
16:45:40 <inode0> 9 (MarkDude) In your opinions, at what point do we step away from being a Fedora Ambadassador to representing Linux, FOSS, or Open Source in general? (Cooperation with other Distros, dealing with the general public)
16:45:43 <aeperezt> 4. SWAG is a challenge depending on you region, not all countries can produce them, so there is much room to work and improve there, Areas like NA, have work around it, but in LATAM for instance is more difficult as we have many borders many customs to go over suggestion is to produce locally but not all countries has the capability to produce a quality SWAG at a good prices, plus so we need to work around it
16:46:07 <aeperezt> eof
16:47:13 <aeperezt> 9. On my case we work with local FLOSS groups and open s
16:48:00 <herlo> 9) I think representing Linux and FOSS is a core attribute of a FAm. Cooperation with other distros can be a very valuable activity as it can give us good ideas to use within Fedora. It seems that we could share good ideas with them and grow the entire ecosystem. I'm all for this idea.
16:48:05 <herlo> eof
16:49:02 <bckurera> 9. When the topic is FOSS in general we can represent FOSS. Most of FAms are not only active in Fedora but in many other Free Software projects. It is good to elaborate them in events and make others aware. Dealing with other distros are very important. We need to point the public to the right place. According to Fedora we have a vision how Fedora OS would be and for whom Fedora fits.
16:49:12 <bckurera> If the public requirement/ need in other direction we can point them the right place. At the end we are all part of FOSS.
16:49:15 <bckurera> EOF
16:49:46 <aeperezt> 9. On my case we work with local FLOSS groups and open source groups, while we work together with other distros, we encourage users to find their own distro and foss projects
16:49:47 <aeperezt> eof
16:51:13 <sesivany> 9) I have absolutely no problem to work with other projects and distributions. It's very healthy with upstream projects and it's OK with other distributions, too. I've been doing that and will be doing. Every ambassador is more or less ambassador of the whole FLOSS. eof
16:51:35 <cwickert> 9. There is hardly anything that can stop me. not even wearing a stupid hotdog costume on stage in front of a 200 people audience. I even attend a social event that is sponsored by Oracle and Microsoft - just too eat as much as I can and do the most possible damage to them. :) Really, I think you can advocate FOSS everywhere at any time. If you have a bad distro as a partner, show them how to do better. EOF
16:52:39 <arifiauo> 9. There is no harm if we could go anywhere. No one should we stay away from. Not those that change us, but we are changing them. Moreover every distro has their purpose. I know that Fedora does not look for any user, Fedora better looking / wanting a contributor. Due to the open-source project so it can last up and running.
16:52:43 <arifiauo> eof
16:52:58 <tuanta> 9. IMO, as an Fedora ambassador, I am not only represent to Fedora but also to FOSS in general. I am myelf most active in Fedora but I collaborate with other people in FOSS community to promote FOSS in general. Fedora is one of the best as well as one of the most friendly FOSS communities/projects then we should show to people in the whole community what we are; I usually tell people in our community that when they contribute to Fedora, they ar als
16:52:58 <tuanta> o contributing to a lot of FOSS projects/stuffs
16:53:01 <tuanta> eof.
16:53:47 <danielbruno> 9. It is common for ambassadors to be involved with other FOSS communities, and the work done by our group is a part of it. As with most events are not specific on Fedora, there's always have this interaction  and questions involving  Fedora with this context.
16:53:48 <danielbruno> eof
16:54:30 <inode0> I'm going to ask the last question for today, it is ok if we run a little bit over so take your time to answer
16:54:37 <inode0> 13 (rbergeron) How well do you think the current FUDCon subsidy and selection processes works? How and why would you change them, if at all?
16:57:02 <herlo> 13) wow, hard question, thanks rbergeron :). Overall, I think the FUDCon subsidy and selection process works pretty well. I am not sure there is too much that could be done beyond defining the numbers more quickly and having a basic template for approval. From what I can tell, the process is pretty consistent and fair. I'm sure it could be improved with some process.
16:57:15 <tuanta> 13. iwwe should see how to get more people attended within limited budget.
16:57:20 <tuanta> sorry
16:58:12 <cwickert> 13. I generally think FUDCons do work good, we have enough, they are just long/short enough and we have the right people attending. The FUDCon bid process needs to be improved though, because it takes too long and leaves too little time for planning the event itself.
16:58:53 <herlo> 13) It could be possible to see if we could fund smaller amounts for more people. Like possibly covering 1/2 the hotel cost instead of the full cost per person. I do like rewarding people for doing good work throughout the year as well, but that's harder to say who did more than another.
16:58:56 <cwickert> 13. And I just learned something very important about FUDCons last week at the APAC one: They are very different because they have a different audience. In EMEA or NA you have 120 attendees and 100 of them already contributors or Red Hat employees. In APAC or LATAM you have a lot more, say over 400, but hardly any project members. One vent is to get stuff done and the other to attract new contributors
16:59:22 <herlo> eof
16:59:23 <danielbruno> I think the process of subsidy is clear and open for everyone and it has worked well.
16:59:27 <danielbruno> eof
16:59:30 <sesivany> 13) As I stated in the ambassadors mailing list some time ago, I'd like to see the selection processed to be more specified. Clear schedule with deadlines when everyone knows if it's still time to work on bids or if it's time to start discussion, express opinions, and do decisions.
16:59:32 <sesivany> eof
16:59:36 <bckurera> 13. We need to get the regional idea for the bids as well. Fixed time framing is a must. Current process is working fine but we need to consider the regional comments, ideas, #agreed more. Further it is good to keep up the bidding but if we can prepare as a whole, focusing the effort we are making to one proposal that would also be fine. So that no one get disappointed. More discussions should be required before bidding ha
16:59:39 <bckurera> EOF
17:00:01 <cwickert> 13. If only 1 out of 100 joins Fedora, the event with all the students who are not yet members will bring us more contributors, even if we don't get as much work done as at the other event with all the professionals. EOF
17:01:46 <tuanta> 13. it's quite good now. However, we should see how to get more people attended within limited budget. The more Fedora contributor can attend, the more fun we have; IMHO, the one of the funnest things when participating in a FOSS project is meeting people. Meeting each other would be a great chance for contributors to learn and share more great things.
17:01:47 <tuanta> eof
17:02:27 <inode0> Is anyone still working on this question?
17:02:35 <aeperezt> yes
17:03:59 <arifiauo> 13. In my opinion, a full subsidy must be given to people who have an important purpose in the event and or the person has an important position in the event. Because it may be one occasion they met in person. Regarding the selection, I prefer to give an opportunity for the region that has never hosted the event. Because then, the area will feel appreciated and certainly with the event and I'm sure the public knows that we are serious in fighti
17:04:01 <arifiauo> ng for open source.
17:05:25 <arifiauo> eof
17:06:08 <aeperezt> 13. Fudcon selection should be done with more time to allow local team get more resources and sponsorship, after organizing one fudcon my self I know that could help, also we need a way to have organizer for the next fudcon to be able to atend one fudcon earlier so they can learn how it should be and how to improve its own. Budget for fudcon should be better for LATAM at lease we got a cut down on the budged and we work with that but with a b
17:06:08 <aeperezt> etter budget we can bring more people to attend with thing latam the issue of air travel is expensive and it is a big region
17:06:11 <aeperezt> eof
17:06:33 <inode0> #topic Thank You
17:06:40 <inode0> Before ending the townhall today I would like to take a minute to thank all the candidates for generously sharing their time with us during the townhall and providing answers to the questionnaires. Thanks also to Ankur for coordinating the questionnaires this election cycle.
17:07:21 <inode0> Hope to see you all again tomorrow - we have many more questions.
17:07:23 <danielbruno> you're welcome
17:07:34 <inode0> #endmeeting