23:13:39 <jsmith> #startmeeting Fedora Board Town Hall
23:13:39 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Nov 17 23:13:39 2011 UTC.  The chair is jsmith. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
23:13:39 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
23:13:55 <cwickert> nice try jsmith, zodbot is still loading
23:14:08 <cwickert> should we give him 5 more minutes?
23:14:15 <jsmith> Yeah, five more minutes, and then we'll start
23:20:28 <jsmith> OK, let's go ahead and get started, and deal with the logs later
23:20:34 <jsmith> Perhaps zodbot will catch up eventually
23:20:45 <jsmith> #meetingname fedora_townhall
23:20:45 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_townhall'
23:21:03 <jsmith> #topic Quick introductions
23:21:16 <EvilBob> Robert 'Bob' Jensen, Linux user since July 7th 1999, Fedora user since November 2003
23:21:18 <jsmith> I'd like each of the candidates to quickly introduce themselves
23:22:20 <zodbot> jsmith: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress.
23:22:40 <jsmith> By way of announcement, lcafiero is going to be in and out, as he got called into some work meetings at this hour
23:22:57 <cwickert> Hi, I'm Christoph Wickert from Germany, Fedora contributor since 2005, proven packager, packager sponsor, proven tester, ambassador and community monkey, served the last 2 years in FESCo
23:24:13 <jsmith> Larry Cafiero is a long-time Fedora ambassador, and previously served on FAmSCo if I'm not mistaken, and has helped out in Docs as well
23:24:49 <jsmith> Jaroslav Reznik is a current Board member, and a packager and KDE developer
23:25:09 <EvilBob> I'm former DOcs Steering COmmittee, FAMSCo, Packager, one of the Founders of the Fedora UNity Project
23:25:22 <jsmith> Just a reminder -- if you have questions, please ask them in #fedora-townhall-public, and we'll queue them up there
23:25:27 <jsmith> #topic Questions and Answers
23:25:48 <jsmith> First question: What is the most important thing you *want* to help the board accomplish over the next year?
23:26:09 <EvilBob> Transparency, transparency, transparency. Every election it's mentioned and little changes.
23:26:35 <EvilBob> The board needs to be accountable to the community that elects it.
23:27:57 <jsmith> Thanks EvilBob.  cwickert, your turn.
23:28:04 <EvilBob> The Board should be active in enabling contributors in small ideas, fertilizing them to help progress be made for the good of open source
23:28:24 <cwickert> I'd like to establish a new body: The Fedora Council. It's not so much about decision making and adding more red tape but a place for delegates of all groups to come together
23:28:58 <cwickert> this will not improve communication and transparency but also to make sure all members of the project are equal citizens and get the resources they need (money, swag, etc)
23:29:27 <EvilBob> cwickert: Will not 'only' improve?
23:29:49 <cwickert> EvilBob: right, I missed "only"
23:29:52 <cwickert> :)
23:30:05 <cwickert> thanks for reading so carefully
23:30:20 <jsmith> Next question:
23:30:27 <jsmith> Much of the Board's work involves balancing the wants of a few people against the goals and aspirations of the larger project.
23:30:27 <jsmith> What is your view with regards to this balance, and how to find that balance when conflicts arise?
23:30:27 <jsmith> (cwickert first, and then EvilBob)
23:31:13 <cwickert> werll, FOSS and Fedora in particular is meritocracy
23:31:25 <cwickert> so if a small group of people wants to make something happen
23:31:32 <cwickert> like the recent usrmove feature
23:31:39 <cwickert> I think we should give them a chance
23:31:55 <cwickert> as long as it does not violate our basic principles of course
23:32:13 <cwickert> but if we block people all the time, we will not be the leader in FOSS that we are today
23:33:05 <cwickert> conflicts need to be decided on a per case base, but I want the board to get involved in these decisions as little as possible
23:33:20 <cwickert> the board is only the last resort if we cannot handle a conflict on a lower level
23:33:40 <cwickert> generally I like bottom-up so the SIGs and groups are to decide rather than the board
23:33:45 <cwickert> eof
23:34:09 <EvilBob> Balance is hard, conflict is easy you can see that in my track record. There are few that have ruffled the feathers I have. This puts me in a somewhat unique position to also know how to resolve the conflicts. Generally conflicts work them selves out with out the full board's involvement. The Fedora Foundations act as our guide in what Fedora is and what it will be.
23:35:29 <EvilBob> Small groups can be powerful in making changes. They may not always be for the greater good. The board should be on the look out for these things and help them be positive things.
23:35:58 <EvilBob> No one wants to be the group that screwed up Fedora 23
23:36:01 <EvilBob> EOF
23:36:50 <jsmith> Next question: How has your previous work in Fedora prepared you to serve on the Board?  What lessons have you learned along the way? (EvilBob first, then cwickert)
23:37:39 <EvilBob> I've been involved in Fedora for so long it's hard to pin point things.
23:38:23 <EvilBob> One thing I've learned is that just because someone took what you said the wrong way does not make them wrong.
23:39:35 <EvilBob> You just have to hope they are willing to listen to your explanation to resolve the misunderstanding. This is open source, most of us do it for fun, and it should be fun. A sense of humor is vitally important IMO.
23:41:25 <EvilBob> Enabling groups to get things done, Fedora Unity is an example. It started as 5 of us one night tired of bad information out there on how to get things done in Fedora. We banded together and got it done. Re-Spins, the first LiveCDs, and FedoraSolved.org. All examples of what a small group can do.
23:41:28 <EvilBob> EOF
23:41:36 <cwickert> I have been serving in the ambassadors a long time and learned a lot from Max. Still I am not a diplomatic person, I say what I think and I say it bluntly, you all know that. ;)
23:41:49 <EvilBob> +1
23:41:55 <cwickert> but I think being direct can also be an advantage, e.g when it comes to discuss facts rather than opinions
23:42:11 <cwickert> I have served in many different projects and I think I know Fedora and it's people quite a bit
23:42:23 <cwickert> but the most important lesson I learned is:
23:42:29 <cwickert> *Talk* to people, face to face if possible.
23:42:47 <cwickert> Most of the time it turns out it's easy to reach a consensus. Even if you don't agree, you can find a solution for everybody.
23:43:12 <cwickert> and this is what the board is to do for Fedora: Find something, that works (tm)
23:43:14 <cwickert> EOF
23:44:12 * EvilBob elbows jsmith
23:44:30 <jsmith> Next question:
23:44:34 <jsmith> One candidate proposed the creation of a Fedora Council - perhaps that candidate could give a brief overview of the Council and others could give their initial impressions of the idea?
23:44:41 <jsmith> (cwickert first)
23:44:59 <cwickert> ok, the idea of a council comes form the lack of communication
23:45:18 <cwickert> we have a lot of groups in the project, but most of the time we don't know what others are doing
23:45:47 <cwickert> I think every group should have one representative and these people should get together on a regular base
23:46:21 <cwickert> for the beginning I'd like this to be an informal group, just coordiniation rather than decision making
23:46:38 <cwickert> but if it works out, we could also empower it to deal with decisions such as budget
23:46:58 <cwickert> I mean, it will be a journey and I have no idea where it will end
23:47:26 <cwickert> but other projects have a council, too, for example Mageia, and they are quite successful with it
23:47:28 <cwickert> eof
23:47:31 <EvilBob> I think it's a great idea, Fedora is made up of many groups, most don't communicate. I think this has contribute to Fedora's "community" being fractured and most recently apathetic. I guess it really is just a +1 from me, cwickert has great ideas and I look forward to working with him and others on the board that sometimes think out of the box. Just because something has been working does not mean it can't be fixed.
23:47:50 <EvilBob> EOF
23:48:00 <cwickert> one more thing on this
23:48:08 * EvilBob nods
23:48:32 <cwickert> the reason I prefer a group of delegates over a SIG is that I want all people there, and not only the ones that are interested in it
23:48:39 <cwickert> take the finance SIG for example
23:48:58 <cwickert> I am afraid that people get into the SIG just to get the most resources for their team
23:49:15 <cwickert> and we need to share wisely and treat all teams equally.
23:49:17 <cwickert> EOF
23:49:25 <EvilBob> May I also?
23:49:31 <jsmith> EvilBob: Of course
23:51:00 <EvilBob> Finance is one of the things that has been a... an issue to me. In the past the moneys have been largely controlled by FAMSCo, I always felt that this was wrong because FAMSCo does not answer or represent the full community.
23:51:12 <cwickert> +1
23:51:44 <EvilBob> If they are community resources the community should have a say in who overlooks it, with Red Hat's help naturally.
23:51:51 <EvilBob> EOF
23:52:05 <jsmith> Next question:
23:52:12 <jsmith> Part of the Board's mandate is to set strategic direction for the project.  What strategic goals should the Board focus on that it hasn't done over the past year or two?
23:52:52 <EvilBob> I'll take it
23:53:38 <EvilBob> strategic direction... makes it sound like we are a business. We're not a business, we are a project sponsored by a great company.
23:54:35 <EvilBob> the Fedora Foundations were set down and should be the guiding force in any "strategy".
23:54:51 <EvilBob> Fedora is about pushing the limits IMO.
23:54:55 <EvilBob> EOF
23:55:24 <cwickert> I think 2 years ago we've seen how not to do it: the board wanted to be involved in everything and started meta-discussions about long term goals, visions and all that.
23:55:30 <cwickert> The outcome was pretty sparse.
23:55:55 <cwickert> I think our contributors could have archieved much more in the same time, both code as well as governance, if we just let them and did not block them.
23:56:06 <cwickert> Thankfully things have changed recently
23:56:17 <cwickert> and I think this is how the board should work
23:56:27 <cwickert> To me the overall direction of the project is ok, there is absolutely no need to change it
23:56:34 <cwickert> we just need some fine tuning here and there
23:56:55 <cwickert> so strategic decisions... really hard to answer
23:57:05 <cwickert> I mean, I have no example in mind
23:57:41 <cwickert> If a tough decision comes up, we first should gather feedback in the project, listen to our contributor rather than talk
23:57:49 <cwickert> EOF
23:58:04 <EvilBob> !
23:58:25 <jsmith> EvilBob: Go ahead
23:59:01 <EvilBob> jsmith: can you tell us how you see this strategic direction/strategic goal stuff playing out. Maybe I just don't understand it in this context.
23:59:17 <jsmith> Sure, I'd be happy to elaborate a bit
23:59:23 <EvilBob> Thanks
23:59:57 <jsmith> The Fedora Board sat down roughly a year ago with the objective of coming up with three or four goals that the project as a whole could accomplish during the F16 and F17 release cycles.
00:00:35 <jsmith> The Board wanted to set strategic goals (rather than tactical goals), and then help the SIGs and steering committees with tactical ideas within their own realms
00:01:15 <jsmith> The high-level goals that were agreed to were things like "Make communications better within Fedora" and "Make Fedora a more inviting place to participate" and "Make Fedora easier for new contributors to join"
00:01:31 <cwickert> may I interrupt?
00:01:37 <jsmith> cwickert: Please, go ahead
00:02:07 <cwickert> What was the outcome of this? I don't think that anything has changed, say communication has not improved
00:02:17 <cwickert> That doesn't mean that we should not try to improve it
00:02:26 <cwickert> but IHMO we should just *DO* it instead of having a meta-discussion
00:02:43 <cwickert> have clean propsale, e.g. the council or the CWG
00:02:56 <cwickert> but please let us not deal with buzzwords all the time
00:03:11 <cwickert> if this is the boards job, I might reconsider running
00:03:20 <jsmith> Well, that's what I was going to explain
00:03:30 <cwickert> I am really glad to see the board has changed it's attitude here
00:03:31 <jsmith> To be frank, nothing happened after the goals were agreed to
00:04:26 <cwickert> right
00:05:00 <cwickert> the problem with these strategic goals was: they were defined by the board, not by the contributors
00:05:00 <EvilBob> Not being accountable, didn't have to be because the community was not involved?
00:05:09 <cwickert> it was top-down instead of bottom-up
00:05:23 <EvilBob> cwickert: Exactly my point
00:05:25 <jsmith> cwickert: To be fair, we tried to reach out to the steering committees and SIGs to get input
00:05:53 <cwickert> yes, but there was a great loss on the way up to the board
00:06:18 <cwickert> anyway, it had some positive outcome and this is what counts
00:06:40 <jsmith> So, to put the question another way -- what would you do differently?
00:06:47 <jsmith> Does that better explain the question?
00:07:30 <cwickert> ok, I'll start
00:07:46 <cwickert> When I joined FESCo I thought "This is where decisions are made"
00:08:01 <cwickert> but in fact FESCo just votes about proposals from contributors
00:08:14 <cwickert> so they do most of the decision making
00:08:33 <cwickert> and I think the board should go into that direction
00:08:52 <cwickert> I think it will have enough work if it just tries to responds to all questions and needs that come up
00:09:40 <cwickert> Some committees need more leadership, others more diplomacy
00:09:54 <cwickert> We have a strong community and we should trust our community
00:10:11 <cwickert> not so much try to stear or guide it
00:10:22 <cwickert> Does that answer your question?
00:10:29 * jsmith nods
00:10:44 <cwickert> well, that was not totally different
00:10:56 <cwickert> because it is similar to your job as FPL
00:11:01 <cwickert> EOF
00:11:17 <EvilBob> Confirmation and enabling more than decisions as cwickert pointed out. I disagree with us having a strong community, we have a potentially strong community it's fractured and apathetic now, the board can help nurture the community to be it's potential.
00:12:16 <EvilBob> If the board are "Leaders" then they should be strong in that position. Not indecisive and weak.
00:12:39 <EvilBob> Get the input from the greater community and stand up for them
00:13:13 <EvilBob> when the community see's the board fail them personally they only see the board and in turn the project fail.
00:13:18 <EvilBob> I agree with this from the other channel "<inode0> failure is always a positive outcome unless (a) you always fail or (b) you never learn from failure"
00:14:05 <EvilBob> If a user is disgruntled or even a group, the question is why and how can we make it different.
00:14:16 <EvilBob> EOF
00:14:25 <cwickert> I'd like to add something
00:14:31 * EvilBob nods
00:14:31 <jsmith> Next question: Why do you work on/with Free and Open Source Software?
00:14:38 <jsmith> cwickert: Go ahead
00:14:51 <cwickert> I don't want people to think that I want a laissez faire board
00:14:51 <jsmith> (and EvilBob can start preparing his answer for the next question)
00:15:06 <cwickert> when a decision was made, the board needs to enforce it
00:15:24 <cwickert> when we discussed this communication thing, we had a couple of proposals
00:15:34 <cwickert> some more structural, others very technical
00:16:10 <cwickert> and then I want a board to clearly say: "We have come to agree that we need this or that, please group XY, implement it and report back to us when done"
00:16:36 <cwickert> if the group is not happy, maybe it needs one more iteration of decision finding
00:17:00 <cwickert> but generally the board should have the power to enforce things, and this is what has lacked in the past
00:17:01 <cwickert> EOF
00:17:58 <jsmith> OK, let's move on to the next question: Why do you work on/with Free and Open Source Software? (EvilBob first)
00:18:04 <EvilBob> I started working in Fedora because it was fun... make that FUN! We chatted, we found things to do, we got to know each other. We became friends.
00:18:22 <EvilBob> We worked together toward goals.
00:18:42 <EvilBob> That is harder today than it was then.
00:19:10 <EvilBob> EOF I guess, I was not out to change the world nor am I today
00:19:37 <cwickert> I work on FOSS because I can. :)
00:19:45 <cwickert> I am in the lucky position, that I earn my living from working on FOSS
00:19:52 <cwickert> and the reason I got this job is Fedora
00:20:07 <cwickert> Fedora gives me the opportunity to work on things I want, that is a pretty big freedom
00:20:34 <cwickert> And of course it makes me proud when I buy a tablet device and by random find my name in the changelogs or nirik's
00:20:46 <EvilBob> +1
00:20:59 <cwickert> EOF
00:21:15 <jsmith> OK, we're at the hour mark, so I think we'll call it good there
00:21:42 <jsmith> We'll save the rest of the questions for the next Town Hall meeting, which is Tuesday at 21:00 UTC
00:21:54 <jsmith> Thanks to everyone that has participated, and especially to the candidates
00:22:06 <EvilBob> jsmith: Thank you
00:22:21 <EvilBob> and thanks to the peanut gallery for the questions
00:22:38 <jsmith> #endmeeting