14:59:53 <abadger1999> #startmeeting Fedora Board Townhall
14:59:53 <zodbot> Meeting started Fri Nov 19 14:59:53 2010 UTC.  The chair is abadger1999. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:59:53 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:00:01 <abadger1999> Welcome to the Fedora Board Townhall everyone.  The candidates today are jreznik kital red_alert ke4qqq dramsey(missing)
15:00:23 <abadger1999> Audience, please start asking questions in #fedora-townhall-public and I'll start queueing them for candidates to answer.
15:00:27 * kital sliced his most important typing finger yesterday while changing a light bulb in his fridge - can´t type very fast ;) sorry
15:00:36 <abadger1999> While that's starting: candidates, please give us each a one-line introduction.
15:01:21 <abadger1999> #meetingname board-townhall
15:01:21 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'board-townhall'
15:01:27 * ke4qqq is David Nalley - thanks for showing up to watch and consider us.
15:01:54 <kital> hi i am Joerg (kital) Simon - you can read all about me http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JoergSimon
15:02:26 * red_alert is Sandro Mathys -> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Red
15:02:51 <abadger1999> jreznik: ?
15:03:28 * jreznik is just Jaroslav Reznik - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JaroslavReznik
15:03:44 <abadger1999> Okay.  And our questions are coming in:
15:03:48 <abadger1999> 1: From cwickert: The board has given us a new target audience, the non-techical users. when was the last time you have been to an event, doing booth service and have talked to a person who is new to linux?
15:04:40 <kital> http://jsimon.fedorapeople.org/events/2010/
15:04:49 <ke4qqq> 1. The llast time I was at a Linux or F/LOSS event was September 29 at OLF. I didn't spend much time behind the booth, but I spent a lot of time talking to people there, including new-to-linux users.
15:04:56 <kital> OpenExpo Bern was the last
15:05:18 <red_alert> The last event I staffed a Fedora booth was at FrOSCamp in Zurich, but not sure if I talked to someone who was completely new to Linux there :)
15:05:39 <jreznik> 1: last even for me was LinuxAlt, biggest Czech Linux and open source conference, I didn't run a booth but I was able to spread Fedora through USB sticks to the new users... of course, I try to do as many as possible talks on other conferences etc. about Fedora KDE Plasma Workspaces (FUDCons, RH dev. confs, etc)
15:05:43 <red_alert> that's been mid-September 2010
15:06:36 <jreznik> and /me is waiting for Fedora badges/buttons ordered last week to spread Fedora on ours jackets :)
15:06:42 <abadger1999> :-)
15:06:50 <abadger1999> next question:
15:06:52 <abadger1999> 2: Southern_Gentlem: What is your vision for the future  of Fedora, and what issue do you foresee  in the next 2-5 years?
15:07:46 <red_alert> my vision is to become the #1 desktop system that at the same time allows developers to shape the future in the open source world
15:08:18 <ke4qqq> 2. I see fedora continuing to serve (and hopefully doing a better job of) as a place where innovation happens (and not just inside the distribution)
15:08:33 <red_alert> the issues will probably be that desktop endusers and developers need a different type of system (due to the stability vs. bleeding edge focus)
15:09:12 <jreznik> 2: wow, tough question - 5 years are like ages in IT world... I'd like to see Fedora as a platform that can be enriched by all people around, all projects under one big Fedora roof
15:09:12 <ke4qqq> 2. I see we have some growing pains - and we are still having divergent views on what Fedora should be.
15:10:02 <jreznik> ke4qqq: agree but I don't think Fedora has to be just one the right Fedora for just one view
15:10:12 <ke4qqq> 2. I think we need to take stock of 1. what we are, 2. who our contributors are, and what they want (including what RHT as an entity needs/wants from fedora)
15:10:53 <ke4qqq> jreznik: I couldn't agree more - I think there is plenty of room for growth in a lot of areas, and fear shoehorning ourselves
15:11:10 <kital> 2. Have Fedora as the prefered platform for people who want teach about Information Technology and who want to maintain specific software collections along the Fedora Quality standards - be a nice place for contributors
15:11:50 <abadger1999> We have  a followup to question #1:
15:11:58 <abadger1999> 1b: Do we really come into much contact with our new target audience - some show up, but do we need to do something different to reach them in large numbers?
15:12:12 <kital> 2. make it a rewarding experience to be a Fedora Contributor
15:12:14 <abadger1999> (from inode0)
15:13:39 * jreznik is still not sure who is/or should be our new target audience
15:13:40 <ke4qqq> 1b: honestly - we (speaking for myself and hopefully a few other people I have talked to) don't do a good communicating with the $targetaudience. We talk about features like SSSD, and Spice, and $targetaudience doesn't care. We have core values, that $targetaudience doesn't care about.
15:14:04 <jreznik> ke4qqq: exactly
15:14:18 <ke4qqq> 1b. In short, the things that $targetaudience cares about, aren't the things that Fedora cares about (by choice or necessity)
15:14:37 <abadger1999> cwickert has a followup as well.  also 1b: Do you think the board has done a good job in listening to the community before making new 'visions'? Is there enough input from the community?
15:14:41 * ke4qqq notes he has made lots of hasty generalizations
15:15:02 <jreznik> the core values are problem - look at current glibc/flash issue - for users (like just users) it is a big issue - but it goes against our core value - free and open software supporter
15:15:22 <ke4qqq> jreznik: +1 - great example
15:15:47 <red_alert> I think the new target audience is better reached by word-of-mouth marketing, like reading that/why current fedora new-target-audience-users like fedora (better than whatever they used before)
15:15:51 <kital> 1b: yes, but it depends on the event itself - i think if we get one long time contributor per event it is goal achieved for this event
15:17:19 <kital> i think there is enough input but on too many channels - therefor i think it is imperative that the steering commitees work on their duties as liasons to the board
15:17:37 <kital> oh this was 1b ^^
15:17:41 <ke4qqq> 1b.1: honestly, no. Some board members have been very proactive in talking to people, others have not, and when concernts are brought to fab by the community very few people from the board participate in those conversations as a whole.
15:18:33 <jreznik> to the question if board is listening community - the problem is how to listen to community? community is not a one subject, there are devels, users, people more or less active and it's not easy to count every vote, every preference - board should do a decision - not against the will of "community" but can't listen completely to all voices - it's not possible
15:18:33 <abadger1999> anyone else have answers for 1b.1 (cwickert's followup)?
15:18:37 <kital> 1b: and on the other that the board give more duties and work to the steering commitees as done with the selection of the next place for fudcon latam
15:18:49 <kital> 1b: to decided by famsco
15:18:57 <kital> eof for me
15:20:05 <abadger1999> Next question:
15:20:06 <abadger1999> 3: marcus: there has been some discrepancy between the non-Red Hat and Red Hat part of the community, what's your vision on improving communication between both.
15:21:46 <kital> 3: i think we have to be aware that we live in a symbiosis - we are still in a learning process with our community and we face problems now that others may will have later if they grow as we have
15:22:15 <ke4qqq> 3. You know, I am not even sure that it's RHT vs non-RHT, though we often draw those lines. There's a lot of dissent between RHT-employed community members about the everything from vision to future, to implementation details. I will say that RHT not telling people what is important, and what continues to justify the continued investment is deletirious. Because then it makes the community wonder if RHT-employee-A's agenda/vision is what RHT wants. Th
15:22:33 <jreznik> 3: as insider - I can't say it's/was RH vs non-RH, it's more opinion vs opinion, mostly even not accepted by some Red Hatters... one core value I see working for Red Hat is - we are more Fedorians than Red Hatters...
15:23:22 <jreznik> ke4qqq: you were again faster and I agree again
15:23:23 <kital> 3: we have to be aware that we need rules to maintain this symbiosis in a healhy way - but with every new Policy and rule we also loose freedom - even if they are made to protect freedom in some other ways -
15:23:43 <ke4qqq> 3. Sadly, because of the perception of many that RHT has some secret cabal that controls fedora - their is more of an onus on them to redouble efforts to be transparent and open.
15:23:53 <red_alert> I myself have never seen discrepancies between non-RH and RH folks, I worked together with both very well so far - but there's always people communicating better or worse, but also within the non-RH community
15:23:55 <jreznik> kital: but these policies are not RH policies but Fedora's ones...
15:25:19 <abadger1999> and next we have:
15:25:21 <abadger1999> 4: inode0: Can community buy-in to a vision be measured? Does it matter? What happens without it?
15:26:31 <kital> jreznik: yes - but i think it is ok to say that some of the rules need to be established  to protect RH interests - which is no problem for me but should be allowed to say
15:27:41 <jreznik> kital: I don't know about any such policy :) at least on the board level, maybe on technical one - for example manpages etc. but these leads to better Fedora for all and no one hides any secrets behind it
15:28:10 <ke4qqq> 4. Yes, I have a community-buy-in meter that I'll be happy to rent out to inode0 :) Seriously though - I don't think it can be measured with any degree of precision, rather I think it's a bit subjective. I think that you see the level of excitement, or discontent, especially of the people doing the work. I think visions are also scary - for communities - they see it as sometimes, massive change, and human nature generally doesn't like change.
15:28:35 <kital> jreznik: i do not want to start talking about the security test tool decision now - this is a indemnification decision
15:29:11 <ke4qqq> jreznik: I was going to cite trademark decisions wrt Fedora EMEA e.V., but kital's mention of sqlninja works as well I think.
15:29:38 <kital> Fedora EMEA e.V. would be the much bigger hammer yes - :S
15:30:17 <jreznik> 4: the problem with vision - it's not a code, it's talk - you can measure source code - by lines, by functions... but vision? we need it - that's not a question, how to measure? watch around the blogs, open source magazines, mailing lists... listen to the people around - yes, it's more about listening, watching... you can see people moving to other projects or getting new contributors...
15:30:56 <abadger1999> Seems we still have some thoughts on #3.   I'll try to keep some time to discuss more in the last five-ten minutes.
15:31:49 <jreznik> kital: sorry, I don't know about any hidden agenda on behalf sqlninja - I don't think there's any but maybe I'm not right :)
15:32:17 <kital> 4. while measures are important maintain meritocracy - i think a vision should be revised from time to time - but the measurement should be done on things that we can quantify - which is often hard enough because it does not say anything about quality
15:32:31 <kital> s/important/important to/
15:32:39 <ke4qqq> jreznik: I don't think there is a hidden agenda. It is a RHT agenda, that sans-RHT I doubt the rest of the community would have agreed with.
15:33:31 <ke4qqq> and to be clear - thats ok - RHT assumes a lot of risk
15:33:32 <kital> jreznik: nothing hidden - all ok - i also fight for my interests on FSL  ;)
15:33:34 <red_alert> I think the community buy-in could be measured over a long period of time (e.g. if people like the vision contributions will increase and vice versa) but that would take too long and reactions would come too late - so it's better to keep an eye on the planet and such and feel for the general mood wrt to the vision. it does matter tho because if the community isn't pleased with the vision the project might be (irreparably?) harmed
15:34:01 <ke4qqq> and contributes a lot - and in return they get a say, and that's expected.
15:34:23 <ke4qqq> and I don't think that it's necessarily a bad thing in concept
15:35:05 <ke4qqq> and generally works ok in practice
15:35:39 <ke4qqq> though I think that I am about to start armchair quarterbacking, and want to avoid that
15:35:58 <kital> ke4qqq: ;) but +1 on your thoughts
15:36:40 <abadger1999> 5: skvidal: Since fedora started - does the board think how people use computers and the internet at large has changed and does our current target audience reflect that change in computing style?
15:36:53 <jreznik> ke4qqq: more about - I believe Fedora should be open, free but also ok in legal terms - I'm not lawyer, that's sad (and I don't want to be)... we already have a channel how to distribute something we believe in, it's open but we are not sure or we can't distribute - it's again sad, I'd like to have open codecs, security tools but...
15:38:13 <kital> 5: yes i think the board had considered it in the past - but i also think that while the "typical" internet user more and more does not know what he is really doing
15:38:41 <kital> 5: from my event experience i know that Fedora Users are still People who mostly know what they do
15:39:42 <jreznik> 5: IT is changing - rapidly - it's not easy to catch the train - yes, fedora changed a lot, internet changed a lot... we can hear a lot of buzzwords like clouds - and here I agree with RMS - cloud can steal idea of openess from us... I'm not cloud guy but I like projects like Deltacloud - try to define open interface to cloud to avoid vendor lock-ins
15:39:58 <ke4qqq> 5. I can't speak for the board. But I perceive that how people use computers has changed (or at least gone through different phases in the cycle). I think fedora has only had one declared target audience (though RHT being able to generate RHEL has always been an implicit audience).
15:40:03 <kital> 5: and i think maintain what we still have as a community is important - as it is important to decide which audience we want to attract
15:40:47 <red_alert> I think how people use computers and internet has changed but the typical fedora user hasn't. the new target audience seems to be happy with just a web browser to browse facebook, twitter and gmail anyway - no need for the other 17k packages in fedora ;)
15:41:03 <kital> 5: which i think should be the person which maybe need to use RHEL during his work now or later in his live
15:41:16 <kital> 5: or is it life? - does not matter ;)
15:41:25 <ke4qqq> 5. I think that the audience for linux in general has changed over time. have we changed to match - probably not, or at least not as aggressively......
15:42:17 <kital> 5: i think it is ok to say we are a contributor centered community
15:42:33 <ke4qqq> 5 ... and I don't know that it's necessarily a bad thing. We don't want to be flapping in the wind of fads, but we also don't want to ignore what is going on around us.
15:42:51 <jreznik> 5: for target audience (and probably desktop user is meant here) - how many new devices appeared in last three years, any kinds that didn't existed before - netbooks, tablets, mids, smartphones - all serves different purposes - so we need a platform to support it - together with a not so visible targets - like server, embedded systems... it's possible to aim wide range of usecase - the differences are not so big and the whole open
15:42:53 <jreznik> source ecosysystem is really very flexible -> we should be flexible
15:43:31 <abadger1999> Next question is from cwickert:
15:43:34 <abadger1999> 6: cwickert: quoting our former FPL Max: "I think one of the things Fedora needs to do is to reduce the total amount of governance and bureaucracy that it has". Do you think there is too much governance and if so, what are you going to do about it?
15:45:21 <ke4qqq> 6. I think there is too much bureaucracy. I repeatedly see people asking for sanction instead of getting things done, and think that needs to change. Generally speaking, we have historically been a 'you can do just about anything you want, provided you do it'-type of community. That seems to have changed - probably as result of our growth, and the natural change in culture.
15:45:32 <red_alert> I'd agree with max that the amount of bureaucracy needs to be reduced (and I trust it has been reduced already since Max said that). but I think governance is very important unless we prefer complete chaos :)
15:45:55 <kital> 5: to answer the end of that question - personally i think some decisions were too much related to attract end-users (F12 Desktop) - but that is ok as long as there is a place for doing real work with Fedora - instead just using a Web-Browser - (desktop changes F12)
15:45:56 <red_alert> ke4qqq: +1
15:46:25 <red_alert> ke4qqq: particularly the historical part :)
15:46:26 <jreznik> 6: I've attended MeeGo conference at Dublin this week and I've met some people who were trying to get into Fedora world but failed - now MeeGo catched them... the usual complaint was - bureaucracy - on one hand - Fedora is growing, we need some rules - anarchy is not what we want but we also want to stay flexible
15:46:54 <ke4qqq> 6. as for what to do about it - I hope that the board returns its focus to empowering, and unblocking the people doing the work.
15:47:13 <jreznik> ke4qqq: +1, question is - how...
15:48:18 <red_alert> of course the governance should only step in where needed, i.e. be supportive and not obstructive
15:49:39 <abadger1999> so there seems to be a lot of onsensus about there being too much governance.  Anyone have a how to put forth?
15:49:50 <ke4qqq> jreznik: divest authority is a good start - make sure the people doing the work, know they need very little blessing - (and make it clear where they need it (trademarks, feature approval, etc)
15:49:59 <kital> 6: yes, there is - and more rule will make it more complicated more problematic and less free - we reduced rules for becoming a Ambassador to a minimum and since then we were back to a normal healthy communiy growth http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=fama.git;a=blob_plain;f=stats/ambassadors.png - where the person who decides has to follow "No Single Rule"
15:50:56 <jreznik> people are not talking to other people - so then we have to enforce it by rules, then people do not listen to rules -> leads to other rules to force rule... so one task we have to focus is communication
15:51:40 <jreznik> it's in vision - "collaboration is commonplace"
15:51:48 <ke4qqq> jreznik: +1 for communication - I think we've also done a poor job of communicate the culture of the project as we have grown - and that's led to more confusion.
15:51:54 <kital> 6: rules and policies should be also not enforced by the people who decide this rules - this is a lession we learned in Ambassadors as well
15:51:58 <ke4qqq> s/communicate/communicating
15:53:24 <kital> 6: and if there is a rule or policy - it should be done to enable and communicate -  instead to ban something
15:54:00 <kital> 6: i remember our dispute resolution policy as example http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/dispute_resolution
15:54:37 <abadger1999> Last question: 7: inode0: if you could add two more F's to our foundations, what would they be?
15:54:43 <kital> 6: and of course there should always be a clean up of rules that are no longer needed
15:54:51 <red_alert> if employing a new rule/policy/... it should always be thaught at least twice about whether it's really necessary and if there's no better way to achieve a certain goal. mostly it used to work without the new rule a while ago so it should be thought about what has changed in the meantime and caused that new rule to be necessary - going a step back might be better than enforcing a new rule in some cases
15:55:00 <jreznik> you can see it on all levels - for example technical - changing stuff people depends on without prior notice (is it really difficult to send HEADS-UP announce?), ping etc...
15:55:36 <jreznik> then people are just angry and I understand why
15:55:37 <ke4qqq> 7. failure - we pay lip service to this being a silent F, but we act and make decisions like failure is a death knell.
15:56:34 <red_alert> F(1): Fun - contributing should be fun and not work, fun and not fighting. it should be more fun to contribute to fedora than not to contribute :)
15:57:01 <red_alert> ...and it should be fun to use fedora, of course :)
15:57:24 <kital> 7. fun ... mhm too late ;)
15:57:25 <jreznik> 7: F? more? like Fail? :) no, please - stick with our F's and try to fulfill it!
15:57:30 <ke4qqq> 7. future - we've gotten into a good cadence with producing a distribution, and I want to make sure that fedora is driving the future, investing in innovation, and making it easy to innovate here.
15:57:39 <jreznik> but +1 to FUN!
15:58:22 <ke4qqq> yes +1 to fun - while it won't always be fun, if it becomes onerous, we'll burn people out and lose them. they should enjoy contributing to fedora
15:58:26 <red_alert> jreznik: fulfill, I like that F! fullfill the other Fs of our foundations :D
15:59:12 <jreznik> ah really, that's F :-)
15:59:33 * kital lost his (f)antasy head - so go and (f)ind it :S
15:59:38 <abadger1999> There's just a few minutes left officially -- is there any important point you'd like to make before we close ?
16:00:17 * kital has to go now - i am on my trip to the Fedora Activity Day Rheinfelden and have to pick up robert
16:00:21 <kital> sorry i have to leave
16:00:23 <abadger1999> (and discussions can continue on #fedora-townhall-public directly with your audience afterwads)
16:00:45 <abadger1999> kital: Thanksa for attending!
16:00:55 <kital> abadger1999: thanks for chairing!!!
16:01:18 <jreznik> thanks all :) it was Fun!
16:01:41 <ke4qqq> yep - thanks for listening to us - and thanks to Toshio for moderating us :)
16:01:58 <red_alert> thanks everyone for the questions, for showing up, for considering us, for VOTING (note: important!) and abadger1999 for moderating :)
16:02:05 <abadger1999> No problem, I'm here to serve.
16:02:19 <abadger1999> Thanks to the audience for all the questions :-)
16:02:39 <abadger1999> and thanks to the candidates for answering them!
16:03:18 * abadger1999 reminds people that discussion can continue in #fedora-townhall-public
16:03:24 <abadger1999> #endmeeting