17:00:59 <susmit> #startmeeting
17:00:59 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon May 17 17:00:59 2010 UTC.  The chair is susmit. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:59 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:01:35 <susmit> so, before we start, a very brief intro of you please. (We all know you, but just a formality)
17:01:56 <spot> Hi everyone, my name is Tom "spot" Callaway, Fedora Packaging Committee, current Board member, SPARC lover, lousy dancer, and Red Hat employee since 01.
17:02:22 * jjmcd John McDonough, working with Docs for a while now, retired, been everywhere in the biz practically
17:02:33 <mizmo> Hi, my name is Máirín Duffy. I'm currently the team lead for the Fedora Design Team and I'm a user experience designer with Red Hat. I've been using Fedora since 2004.
17:02:48 <smooge> My name is Stephen Smoogen, I work on Fedora Infrastructure and am an employee of Red Hat from 97-01,09-.
17:03:43 <susmit> rdieter, ?
17:04:22 <susmit> ok..seems to be away..I would start off with one question that I have
17:04:38 <susmit> Recently, there has been a number of flaming/heated discussions in various mailing lists. In general, it seems that the level of dissatisfaction is increasing. As a board member, what would you do to reduce that?
17:05:36 <susmit> no need to follow any particular order
17:05:46 <susmit> you can answer when you are ready
17:06:50 <jjmcd> This keeps coming up, and my response is always the same - communication.  Not lame communication that nobody understands, but clear, concise communications that everyone can find.
17:06:58 <jjmcd> If the rationale behind each decision is very clearly and globally articulated, it is hard for the obstructionists to keep it up.
17:07:01 <jjmcd> eof
17:08:01 <spot> I would continue to encourage positive and constructive discussions, but I would also work towards setting big goals for Fedora that are clear and well understood. I think much of the dissatisfaction comes from the fact that we've had people working independently without clear goals.
17:08:15 <rdieter> to reiterate a bit from last night (and agreeing with jjmcd in large part)... A priority for me would be increasing community outreach at the board level : to have a continual measure of the project pulse, acting to facilitate excellence and productivity, (and as a practical matter) assimilating and redirecting dissent.  Contributors need to know and feel they have a voice and are being heard, that the board supports all of their efforts.
17:09:30 <mizmo> sorry i got disconnected
17:09:39 <susmit> mizmo, it's fine
17:10:02 <susmit> the next question is: <brunowolff> What can you accomplish for Fedora as a Board member that you couldn't otherwise?
17:10:06 <mizmo> the first question i believe was already covered on the candidate questionnaire
17:10:12 <mizmo> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F14_elections_questionnaire#There_appears_to_be_a_disturbing_increase_in_the_amount_of_flames.2Fannoyance.2Fanger.2Ffrustration_within_the_the_Fedora_project_of_late.
17:11:00 <smooge> Well basically most of the dissatisfaction is a large amount of stress by many, and probably a little poisoning by some. Humans have a limit to the amount of communication and social links they can really handle.After a certain point, they get overloaded and become basically stressed or hot-headed.  As communities grow they have to find new ways to release that stress (just like in physics/engineering you need radiators on an 'engine'). We ar
17:11:01 <smooge> e reaching a point where we need to come up with more effective ways of doing that. Currently ideas we are looking at are 'growing smaller' and 'more formalization'. I am more for a hybrid of the two while removing existing 'radiators' that aren't working.
17:11:05 <smooge> eof
17:11:12 <susmit> mizmo, ok...I asked because, the I shall ask one more question which is related to this
17:11:12 <smooge> sorry slow typing with bad finger
17:11:45 <susmit> smooge, no prob..I have forwarded the second one, so that others can type in the meanwhile ;)
17:13:19 <mizmo> im going to post my answer from the questionnaire because i think it covers it, i hope that's okay
17:13:33 <mizmo> As a project, over the past few years we've grown a lot in terms of our number of contributors. (see https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics#Contributors) We have over 25,000 Fedora accounts right now, as compared to less than 5,000 shortly after we first introduced the click-through CLA system in 2008. However, there is a limit to how many other people any single person can coordinate with informally and organically, and I do think a lot of the vis
17:13:33 <mizmo> ion that drives Fedora is not formally-stated or widely-socialized within our rapidly-growing contributor base. In the absence of a central vision to follow in making decisions, contributors have formed disparate islands with goals that at times conflict with the goals of other 'islands' within the project. I don't think this is the contributors' fault. It's the way I believe any sensible person trying to accomplish a goal would handle the situation -
17:13:35 <mizmo> it doesn't solve the root problem, however. We need a central vision to drive our work as contributors so we're working together, not at odds.
17:13:49 <mizmo> I believe that my background as a user experience designer - a discipline we have not yet had on our Board - will be an asset in rectifying this situation. As many designers out there will tell you - including the designers on Fedora's design team - it can be very difficult to move a design forward without working to gain the buy-in of the client, users, and developers involved. (see http://www.slideshare.net/tigerfork/achieving-stakeholder-buyin-for-
17:13:49 <mizmo> user-research  for an example of how designers typically approach the buy-in process.) I think that if we can together paint our vision for what and where we want Fedora to be, and successfully sell that vision across our widely-expanding community, then our work in building Fedora will stand a much greater chance of successfully reaching our users and spreading FLOSS - goals I think we all share.
17:13:50 <mizmo> EOF
17:14:00 <spot> The Fedora Board is a leadership role, where we can set goals that span all areas of involvement for Fedora. Being on the Board will help me define those sorts of goals. If I wasn't on the Board, I would suggest them anyways, but I would prefer to be an active participant rather than simply an idea provider. :)
17:14:13 <spot> EOF
17:14:23 <jjmcd> Good question.  I have a (maybe bad) habit of doing "my own" work and not messing in other people's space.  As a Docs member, my scope is somewhat limited.
17:14:32 <jjmcd> But I see opportunities within Fedora to make a bigger mark.  I think I can help connect decicsions to rationale and to make data more visible.  I also expect I may see some process opportunities if I had cause to look closely.
17:14:49 <jjmcd> I agree/disagree with smooge on the "formalization"
17:15:04 <jjmcd> I think we need some, but it needs to be applied judiciously
17:15:05 <smooge> To be honest, I do not think there is really anything I can't accomplish with or without board membership. My running for the board is more of a responsibility as a member of the Fedora Community to have a 'fresh voice/ear' and allow for people to choose from.
17:15:06 <jjmcd> eof
17:15:33 <smooge> eof
17:15:34 <rdieter> being a board member isn't a requirement to facilitating community, productivity and goodwill, but having that leader-role clout to be able to back up and followup on issues certainly helps.  eof
17:15:35 <smooge> sorry
17:16:07 <susmit> smooge, ok..thanks...
17:17:07 <mizmo> The Fedora Board is the centralized leadership body for Fedora. Being a Board member is going to be the most effective way for me to drive the policy I believe is important for our success. While this is certainly achievable through interacting with the Board as a non-member, and I have done that over the past year or so, being an actual Board member is a lot more effective. eof
17:18:31 <susmit> but what if you can not push your ideas? what will you do?
17:18:31 <susmit> <skvidal> follow on question to rdieter - what if the board does NOT support their efforts. What if their efforts are counter-productive - what should you as a board member do?
17:18:45 <mizmo> who is that question to susmit
17:18:46 <susmit> that applies to other members as well
17:19:11 <susmit> mizmo, skvidal asked the above question
17:19:30 <susmit> mine was just a introduction to that question :)
17:19:36 <mizmo> im very confused
17:19:53 <susmit> mizmo, ok
17:19:57 <susmit> let's start over
17:20:05 <susmit> the third quesion is:
17:20:10 <susmit> <skvidal> follow on question to rdieter - what if the board does NOT support their efforts. What if their efforts are counter-productive - what should you as a board member do?
17:20:28 <smooge> ah ok. I was thinking that was directed to one candidate. will work on answer
17:20:49 <jjmcd> I think I answered that in the questionnaire.  It is hard for the counterproductive types to keep pushing in the face of a clear, concise rationale.  But if that doesn't work, then some behind-the-scenes mentoring is called for.
17:21:01 <jjmcd> eof
17:21:24 <mizmo> There's a medium and there's a message, right? To me, the message is not as important as the medium. For me, the medium I want to drive with the board is a clear vision for Fedora. The contents of that message are not as important to me so long as they exist and the community can unite behind it.
17:21:37 <rdieter> kudos to skvidal.  Primarily, being the optimistic type I am always hopeful to find ways to bringing people together, bridging gaps, facilitating compromise.  If all else fails, then sometimes folks simply have to agree to disagree and move on, but I'd very much hope that would be very much a rarity.
17:22:00 <rdieter> eof
17:22:03 <mizmo> I am very willing to work with folks to formulate a message that our community will stand behind. However, if there's disagreement that we even need a vision, and I'm in the minority, I would probably need to step down as a board member.
17:22:05 <mizmo> eof
17:22:43 <spot> I think that there are times to respectfully disagree.
17:22:57 <spot> I have done so in the past, and will continue to do so, as it is appropriate.
17:23:10 <spot> eogf
17:23:13 <spot> eof, rather
17:24:12 <smooge> in the case where you find yourself constantly at odds and even a 'middle' ground seems counterproductive it is best to resign and let the community find a better candidate to work on things. In the more common case where its one issue, you may disagree but you need to work towards making the Boards vision happen. [EG do not sabotage their work nor point out any little flaw as being proof you were right.]
17:24:15 <smooge> eof
17:25:09 <susmit> ok..we move on
17:25:17 <susmit> this one is from mdomsch
17:25:21 <susmit> <mdomsch> Q: Everyone keeps asking for a "Vision".  The Board has been working on that "Vision" (under various names, like the Target Audience, etc.) for the past year or more.  In your opinion, has that been a) transparent; b) effective ?  What would you do differently as a new or returning member?
17:26:07 <susmit> before you answer, I have something to say
17:26:57 <susmit> as a chair, I would like to accommodate as many questions as possible. It may seem that the discussion is less, but we have to make some  compromise
17:27:06 <susmit> I hope that is fine with everyone
17:27:19 <susmit> eof
17:27:29 <rdieter> fine it is
17:27:54 <jjmcd> In response to mdomsch: The work on the vision has been anything but transparent.  I think every candidate has articulated that we need a vision, but in order for the vision to be b) effective it needs to be a) transparent.
17:28:03 <jjmcd> And not just "here it is" transparent, the community needs to buy into the vision as well as it's rationale.
17:28:08 <jjmcd> eof
17:28:59 <spot> I think that the process that the Board has been using has been a good one, even though I don't necessarily agree with the Target User that it has come up with. I think that perhaps the Board could do a better job of spreading the information about its decisions (and the process that lead to them).
17:29:03 <spot> EOF
17:30:05 <mizmo> My main concern with the current target audience statement formulated by the board is that I've talked to folks from different groups within the community and it doesn't seem to be a statement folks stand behind or agree with. While having a target audience statement is important, if it's not backed by the community it isn't useful.
17:30:12 <mizmo> I would work with different members of our community (and I've already started this) to listen to their concerns about the current target audience statement, and try to refine it into something the Fedora community is excited to stand behind.
17:30:17 <mizmo> Beyond drumming up support for the statement and making modifications as needed to that end, some ideas I have for moving forward with the vision project:
17:30:21 <mizmo> • Have much more specific manifestations of the target audience. Right now it applies to a very broad population of folks.
17:30:21 <mizmo> • Have target experiences defined for Fedora. The Desktop SIG has already started some work towards this end in our wiki. Things like, 'The Fedora Coffee table experience,' 'The Fedora camera synchronization experience'. We prioritize those and we'll have a much better idea of what as a community we should be working on together.
17:30:21 <mizmo> • Socialize the vision throughout the community. Videos, comics, blog posts, all these sorts of things can make it fun and help get support.
17:30:22 <mizmo> eof
17:31:36 <susmit> while smooge and rdieter comes up with their answers, the next question in the line is: <EvilBob> Q: Not long ago one of the candidates had stated that Fedora Project had never done anything wrong and had never made a mistake. How do you feel about this and what things in the past could have done differently.
17:31:46 <susmit> s/comes/come
17:31:57 <rdieter> past board vision work seemed good in theory, to be honest and to show my own bias a little, it has rubbed me the wrong way, obfuscating the difference(s) between the project as a whole , and finding vision/target_audience for fedora's primary product, the desktop spin.  So, in that regard, improving transparency would mean being honest about exactly what it is and what it is for.
17:33:48 <smooge> To be honest, I feel the 'Vision' was presented in many ways as Moses and the 10 commandments. However, did I sit in on board meetings, spend time reading and seeing where they were going with it? No. As such I figured they had gone for a common ground looking for something that was inclusive versus exclusive. And for a first start it really needed to do so. There were many people who emailed that they didn't need a vision because either "Its
17:33:48 <smooge> already obvious to everyone what it is!" or "You are going to drive us away because you never liked us." I feel that we have a beginning point and we need to refine the statement with open input from the community. [Clarifying means is this the OS, the project, the community, etc]
17:33:50 <smooge> eof
17:34:24 <susmit> so many questions..good to see that..
17:34:40 <spot> I think that anyone who feels that Fedora hasn't done anything wrong, or hasn't made mistakes is delusional. :) Remember, the fifth Fedora F is FAIL, and it is healthy to try things and FAIL as long as you learn from them.
17:34:46 <susmit> we move to the question EvilBob asked.
17:34:59 <susmit> spot, :)
17:35:04 <spot> eof
17:35:36 <mizmo> I'm really unfamiliar with the context behind EvilBob's question. That being said, I do think we have made a lot of mistakes. You can read any reviews of Fedora for a few examples of mistakes we've made. You have to keep failing and fail harder to make progress and to innovate.
17:36:35 <rdieter> indeed (spot).  fail quickly and proudly, no risk no reward, and all that jazz. yada yada yada
17:36:46 <smooge> I can't answer to the first part of the question without a reference and context. I am not going to start picking on another candidate using standard US politics. To be honest there will always be mistakes made. Humans are failure prone creatures who are lucky that they bat 0.200 overall. What we have to do is a) know we will make mistakes, b) acknowledge when we do, and c) figure out what we did wrong and what we can learn from it.
17:36:47 <mizmo> It's hard for me to say what exactly would have been something we should have done in the past to be doing better today. I do think having a far stronger emphasis on usability and user experience would have placed us in a much better position today. eof
17:36:52 <smooge> oh sorry
17:36:59 <mizmo> its all good
17:36:59 <jjmcd> I tend to not focus on the bad stuff, but remember the good.  If pressed, I would say one mistake was deploying NetworkManager before its time.  Some might argue the same with SELinux, but we needed the experience to get it right, might have been the same with NM.
17:37:00 <jjmcd> eof
17:37:14 <smooge> eof
17:37:25 <susmit> ok..next question is from rakesh
17:37:33 <susmit> Q: With ever growing newer packages coming up and new contributors, what will be your suggestions/ideas/actions for maintaining the same quality or rather improve on it in fedora (keeps us on path to our vision and goals)?
17:40:05 <spot> that almost seems like a FESCo or FPC question...
17:40:36 <susmit> spot, yes
17:40:50 <rdieter> with an ever growing number of cats to herd, it means that there really needs to be some vertical growth as well, finding new and creative ways to encourage new contributors to move up the fedora food-chain, so to speak, to get involved in higher-level support groups or tasks, such as mentoring, ambassadors, fesco, infrastructure, design.
17:40:50 <jjmcd> I agree, although I can see where the board might be called on for counsel.
17:41:16 <susmit> but the quality comes under the purview of board
17:41:54 <spot> I see the role of the Board is to set the big goals, and for groups like FESCo and the FPC to work on the technical details to meet those goals.
17:42:45 <smooge> I am going to say that this is really a FESCO/FPC area. We can give direction but they need to be able to deal with the majority of that or we end up micromanaging. What help do they need to a) get contributors into helping existing packages (to lower load on main devs) and b) get the resources from outside RH to deal with more builds, and c) give an 'overall' vision of what we are aiming for in the next 4 years so that FESCO/FPC know which w
17:42:46 <smooge> ay the tribe is wandering in the wilderness. If it means they need more formalization because it has become too 'wishy-washy' [Do we do this or does XYZ do it.] the Board should clarify and make it stick.
17:42:53 <smooge> eof
17:43:00 <jjmcd> Certainly it is getting more and more challenging.  There has been some discussion of "special" packages that are a little more protected than others.  We probably need something like that, but the selection needs to be based on data from actual users, rather than perceptions.
17:43:07 <jjmcd> One of the challenges we have faced with Docs is how deeply do we document each change in the Release Notes.  Just because I think a particular package is important doesn't mean everyone shares my view.
17:43:15 <jjmcd> Once again I'm on the message of using data rather than shooting from the hip.
17:43:17 <jjmcd> eof
17:43:21 <mizmo> Once we have our vision and goals well-documented and socialized throughout the community, I would say we should make sure that the current policies in place are geared towards supporting that vision and goals and can scale to it.
17:43:26 <mizmo> Not every package in Fedora is equal. To achieve our vision, we must focus on those packages and those projects within the project that will help us achieve those goals the most effectively.
17:43:31 <mizmo> I think the Board's key role in this is to make sure that vision is understood and supported. eof
17:44:57 <susmit> the next one is a bit longer:  Q: The board does talk about "target audience" for a while ... do you really think that an operating system has to select a specific group of people and make life harder for others? i.e why can't an os be both easy to use *and* useable as a development platform? imo hiding failure to address multiple needs behind a target audience is wrong ... so do you really think that this makes sense?
17:45:17 <susmit> asks drago01
17:46:00 <spot> I think thats a great point, which is why I don't really agree with the defined target audience that the board came up with. I think that usability benefits everyone. EOF
17:47:19 <jjmcd> I think it is helpful to focus on a particular audience, but I don't necessarily think that has to make life harder for others.
17:47:27 <jjmcd> On occasion in the past we have put up some roadblocks for particular interest groups, but those have usually been remedied within a release or two.
17:47:35 <jjmcd> It probably wouldn't hurt to pay more attention to possible regressions for secondary audiences, however.
17:47:37 <jjmcd> eof
17:49:01 <mizmo> Focusing on a target audience is not doing so at the exclusion of others. I believe this false assumption has lead to some of the confusion and disagreement with the target audience. Let me give you an example. You know rolling suitcases / rollerboards? Those were invented with a very specific target audience in mind - airline flight crew. They are useful to all travelers, and many different types of people use them today, but without the focus on the
17:49:02 <mizmo> context and needs of flight staff, the inventor may not have been able to come up with the idea.
17:49:07 <mizmo> I don't think we can focus on 'everybody'. That is what we're doing today - and how are we doing? How can you prioritize work and make decisions that will result in a coherent system when you try to cater to everyone? You can pick a target audience, try to meet their needs as best you can, and when you think you've met their needs well enough, shift focus to another target audience. There's no need for exclusion.
17:49:13 <mizmo> It's even possible to target specific classes of users on a rotating manner per release. Eg. F14 could be the release for mobile telecommuter, F15 could be the release for home entertainment... having a focus means our work will be aligned and we'll make a much better positive impression.
17:49:15 <mizmo> eof
17:50:36 <smooge> Sadly things do not always get along. Which Desktop is the one on the boot up? Why isn't XDE it? Why did we use XYZ web server when it is clear that ABC is 'superior'. At a certain point you have to start making choices and by doing so you end up 'creating' some sort of target audience. In many ways the definition given by the board is the one that has been created subconsciously in many ways over the years by what packages, what versions, an
17:50:36 <smooge> d how things are presented even before people started asking what our target was
17:50:37 <rdieter> it's largely clear to me that high-level project goals ought to be well-understood and self-evident, ie "usability benefits everyone" is not something arguable.  I'm not sure going about it via a 'target audience' is the best approach to justifying stuff like that.  I like mizmo's suggestions just now, focussing on related experiences makes more sense to me.
17:51:31 <susmit> ok..equally long answers to a long question. fair enough. ;)
17:51:39 <susmit> <so_solid_moo> Q: Disregarding "missing apps", is Fedora usable day-to-day as a user's sole desktop OS for work, and if not, is that a problem?
17:51:59 <smooge> I would prefer if we allow for various groups to 'define' the user experience they want to go for and aim for it knowing that in some ways they have to fit into certain 'boundaries' that they would be going on their own to go outside (licensing, extended support, pony stables.)
17:52:02 <smooge> eof
17:52:26 <spot> susmit: depends on the user. For me, it absolutely is my sole desktop. For my wife, not so much. I think that is a problem.
17:52:33 <spot> EOF
17:53:15 * susmit uses it as sole desktop too
17:53:25 <jjmcd> WORKSFORME.  The only reason I boot that "other" OS anymore is one particular website that requires one particular browser.  And that is a weird website only used by emergency responders in Michigan, so it is a real oddball.  Absolutely Fedora is useable day-to-day.
17:53:28 <jjmcd> eof
17:55:25 <smooge> I use Fedora 24x7x52 and have used itl, RHL, or  CentOS desktop over the last 8 years. However my experiments on getting others to use it have mostly failed... however looking at why/how/etc it is mainly mindset of how a person uses things/expects things to work. Some people really just work better with one mouse button. Some work better with 2, and people like me use all 5.
17:55:46 <smooge> eof
17:56:34 <mizmo> As an interaction designer who also does web and print graphics production, I've been able to successfully meet my needs using Fedora as my desktop exclusively over the past 5 years (with a couple defections to RHEL).
17:56:39 <mizmo> So Fedora is absolutely usable day-to-day as my sole desktop OS for work. This isn't without a certain non-significant amount of pain in configuring it post-install, however, and installing packages from outside of the main repo. I also do not believe I could successfully use Fedora without comfort and familiarity with the terminal, however.
17:56:44 <mizmo> I  have a degree in computer science and I am surrounded by highly technical folks who can and have helped me out in a pinch. Without that experience and my support network, I am not sure I really could be running Fedora as I do today. I'm interested in operating systems, most folks are not, so I have a lot more patience with Fedora than I believe most people would.
17:56:47 <susmit> smooge, ok...so you use some other os for one day/year.. ;)
17:56:49 <mizmo> It makes me really sad to have so many friends and family members who are highly technical and opt not to use Fedora. I know many Fedora contributors whose families use Windows, OS X, or other distros. I feel very strongly this is a problem.
17:56:50 <mizmo> eof
17:56:55 <rdieter> Fedora is absolutely usable, especially given it's wide community of support.  the harder part is breaking ill-conceived perceptions around computers and free vs nonfree software.
17:57:51 <susmit> the penultimate question is:
17:57:51 <susmit> <jreznik_n900> q: talking about community, transparency etc. - how do you want to drag community into decision making and Im not talking only about loud developers on fedora-devel  ;-) but ordinary end users
18:00:15 <jjmcd> Once again, the information, including the fact that there are dicsussions in progress, all of that needs to be open and FINDABLE.  It helps a lot to follow the threads, and sometimes it helps to just shut up.
18:00:21 <jjmcd> We have a lot of different skill levels, points of view, perspectives, and not all of them are well articulated.  Sometimes you need to draw someone out.
18:00:40 <jjmcd> But it is to all our advantage to use all those heads.
18:00:42 <jjmcd> eof
18:01:00 * spot doesn't want to "drag" community anywhere. Nor do I think that polling the community on every single issue is effective or realistic. I think that people should do their research when voting for the Fedora Board and FESCo, and understand that they are choosing these people to represent them. I also think it is the responsibility of the Board to be open and receptive to the feedback of the Fedora community, users and developers alike. I know that my
18:01:03 <spot> EOF
18:01:43 <rdieter> For me, it is primarily about keeping in touch, forging personal relationships, understanding where the grass roots are headed... and providing for the projects' proper care and feeding.
18:02:37 <smooge> if there is anything I have for a platform, it is to make voting at least once a year mandatory (it is probably the big reason to vote against me). I think it is telling that there are a lot more people who complain about things on lists than there are voters. I believe that the two are very tied together, but that is my rather backwoods view on it :). Beyond that I am going to work on ways that we can make better surveys of the Fedora popula
18:02:38 <smooge> tion so that we can better pinpoint things. Finally, I believe that each board member needs to ask and listen for input... and not just listen to the loudest most posts on devel-list.
18:02:39 <smooge> EOF
18:02:48 <mizmo> I think blogging about Board activities in a compelling and engaging way on Planet Fedora will help reach a wide section of the Fedora community, and I'm very pumped about being able to serve the Board as a blogger.
18:02:53 <mizmo> It depends on the context of the decision to be made, but I also do think it's important to approach folks from different parts of the project - don't wait for them to come to you, because then only the loudest folks will get their say. I don't think formal polls are appropriate in all situations, but I do think simply communicating with folks - maybe scheduling an IRC chat, maybe having an open blog discussion - is really important to get a gauge on
18:02:53 <mizmo> people's thoughts.
18:02:53 <mizmo> eof
18:02:56 <mizmo> and i really *must* go
18:03:16 <susmit> mizmo, the last one..do you mind?
18:03:28 <smooge> no I think she really needs to go
18:03:32 <susmit> ok
18:03:35 <mizmo> i have to go, i'm sorry
18:03:44 <mizmo> thanks everyone
18:03:48 <smooge> she can email her answer later?
18:04:01 <susmit> mizmo, no problem..thanks and you can email later. :)
18:04:04 <susmit> <EvilBob> Q: Some have been concerned that someone on the board could really be working on the board for his or her employer, Who is your employer and could your employer's needs or opinion impact your obligation to the community?
18:05:38 * spot works for Red Hat. They don't encourage me to run for the Board, and they don't always agree with how I feel. Working for Red Hat gives me an insight into the larger problem space, how RHEL is affected by Fedora, for example, but I have NEVER advocated a change in Fedora solely to benefit Red Hat or RHEL.
18:05:39 <spot> EOF
18:05:53 <jjmcd> I don't really have an employer.  I volunteer a LOT of time to emergency management, so you might call my "employer" either the ARRL or the Michigan State Police, but neither pays.  I march to my own drummer.
18:05:54 <jjmcd> eof
18:06:25 <lcafiero> I work for the Santa Cruz Sentinel and I have a FOSS consultancy for small business/home office clients
18:06:28 <lcafiero> eof
18:06:38 * lcafiero apologizes for being late
18:06:39 <rdieter> I work at the University of Nebraska Lincoln, System Administrator of the Mathematics department, with a decent-sized linux deployment (a mixture of fedora and rhel), so both I and my employer have a vested interest in making fedora the best it can me.
18:07:51 <rdieter> can be... it also ensures I'm on the front-lines when it comes to end-users, their concerns, and the problems they enounter
18:08:37 <smooge> I work for Red Hat and have not worked for Red Hat. Some people think that somehow there is some Red Hat cabal directing things behind the scenes.. and that is so untrue I don't laugh anymore. Pretty much every developer's opinions are there own, and rarely combine into anything as a 'vision' or 'cabal' beyond people finding images of Grover in tortillas. In the end, I feel I work for Fedora as thats what I was hired on to do. If anyone were
18:08:37 <smooge> ever to pressure me to not act in what I thought was best, I would leave. I have done it at other jobs, and would do so again.
18:08:51 <smooge> eof
18:10:22 <susmit> so, there comes the end of the meeting.. quite a few questions and a tiring session may be, but may be it will help the voters to make an informed decision when the read the logs
18:10:31 <smooge> thank you.
18:10:33 <spot> susmit: thanks for moderating
18:10:41 <susmit> s/the/they
18:10:49 <jjmcd> good session, thanks susmit
18:10:50 <susmit> thank you all for answering
18:10:51 <spot> good luck to all the candidates!
18:10:52 <lcafiero> thanks, susmit, and thanks all and apologies again for being late
18:11:01 <susmit> lcafiero, nope
18:11:04 <susmit> #endmeeting