14:14:29 <mchua> #startmeeting
14:14:29 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Sep  2 14:14:29 2009 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:14:29 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:14:34 <mchua> Ah, I love zodbot.
14:14:39 <jlaska> sdziallas: for the first test ... any versioning needs for running livecd-iso-to-disk
14:14:45 <jlaska> does it need to be the latest from livecd-tools?
14:15:10 <jlaska> sdziallas: oh nm ... I see the link at the top
14:15:15 <sdziallas> jlaska: oh, you're right... well, I took the latest version from git, confirmed it to be working and uploaded it at Sugar Labs infra...
14:15:39 <sdziallas> jlaska: the latest one on rawhide should work, too
14:15:47 <jlaska> okay
14:20:39 * mchua will start up in a moment, needs to send one email...
14:21:00 * sdziallas quickly grabs a coffee then
14:33:14 <sdziallas> okay...
14:33:46 * mchua apologies for the delay.
14:33:59 <mchua> OKay! sdziallas, what do you know about smw and test cases so far?
14:34:25 <sdziallas> mchua: not a lot. I know that I looked at OLPC's pages, and that I hacked a bit around with them, but didn't get too far.
14:36:16 <mchua> Ok. Let me pull up a few examples of smw test case systems then so we know what we're aiming for.
14:36:26 <mchua> #link http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Test_cases
14:36:30 <mchua> #link http://km.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/projects/owltests/index.php/OWL_2_Test_Cases
14:36:40 <mchua> #link http://km.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/projects/owltests/index.php/FS2RDF-literals-ar
14:36:46 <mchua> #link http://km.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/projects/owltests/index.php/Rdfs:range
14:37:10 <mchua> the first one is from OLPC, and is a working test case system that's been used in practice by a bunch of folks (it's not perfect, but it's been put through its paces reasonably well)
14:37:56 <mchua> the last three are built by actual smw folks and are beautiful but imo harder to figure out and use (and, from the glance I gave them, have been used by fewer people)
14:38:32 <jlaska> yeah those are slick
14:38:59 <mchua> I'm pretty sure the "harder to figure out and use" is likely due to "Mel's utter lack of exposure to actual proper test case systems," though
14:39:15 <mchua> And the current Fedora system... *dig up link!*
14:39:22 <jlaska> what I like about those is how they organize them on that page ... with counts
14:39:35 <jlaska> e.g.   "12 approved test cases for feature X"
14:39:49 <jlaska> "M proposed test cases ..."
14:39:49 <jlaska> etc...
14:39:57 * mchua nods
14:40:12 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Testing
14:40:17 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Test_Plans
14:40:22 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Test_Cases
14:41:04 <jlaska> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Test_Results
14:41:15 <mchua> (thanks)
14:41:31 <mchua> So, for folks reading along who may be new to QA, quick definitions (correct me if I'm off)
14:42:00 <mchua> Test case: specific instructions for something you want to test (for instance, "see if X will boot on Y" - with more detailed instructions than that, of course)
14:42:17 <mchua> Test result: what happens when you run through the test case, does it succeed or fail (and usually also some information on the system you are testing it on)
14:42:44 <mchua> Test plan: a bunch of test cases collected together to cover something (for instance, a certain release, or a set of features, or a product) - a group of test cases, basically, that you go through.
14:43:44 <mchua> Right now the way we do it is with a bunch of tables in the wiki.
14:44:09 <mchua> Which means wrestling with ugly wikitable syntax. All the time. Hurrah. (Significant barrier to entry, etc.)
14:44:19 <jlaska> right on
14:44:35 <mchua> Semantic mediawiki (smw) and semantic forms (forms) will let testers submit test results by filling in nice webforms and clicking a button
14:44:44 <mchua> It's more of a pain to *set up,* by far
14:45:04 <mchua> but that pain can be borne by a few, and the many will find their  lives easier. theoretically.
14:45:19 <mchua> Anyway, enough prologue; time to build stuff.
14:45:37 <mchua> sdziallas: got a sample test case somewhere on the wiki?
14:45:40 * mchua pulls up email
14:46:11 <sdziallas> mchua: http://etherpad.com/ygjaVsnrax
14:47:08 <sdziallas> mchua: (allows us all to make quick pre-building modifications, I guess)
14:47:31 <mchua> sdziallas: perfect, thanks
14:47:40 * mchua needs to shovel inbox out; that email took way too long to find
14:48:27 <sdziallas> mchua: switch to alpine? ;) [/kidding]
14:48:30 <mchua> Let's try (3) Test the new installer since it seems the simplest
14:49:02 <sdziallas> okay, makes sense.
14:49:04 * mchua 's first mail client was pine, then mutt... I miss the simplicity of text-based email clients. Maybe I'll switch back.
14:49:31 * mchua looks at our to-do list of instructions
14:49:32 <mchua> #link https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Semantic_mediawiki_test_case_system
14:49:43 <mchua> we know what we want to end up in the end, something that looks like...
14:49:56 * mchua digs...
14:50:15 * mchua waits for wiki.laptop.org to load...
14:50:39 <mchua> ...good grief.
14:50:46 * jlaska feeds the hamster
14:51:14 <clumens> gotta feed the monkey, right?
14:51:24 <mchua> The rate it's loading at, it's not even a hamster... it's an overworked earthworm
14:51:29 <mchua> aha.
14:51:30 <mchua> #link http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Tests/Activity/Analyze
14:51:37 <mchua> that'd be a test case.
14:51:52 <mchua> And... *loadloadload*
14:52:01 <mchua> Oh for the love of...
14:52:19 <mchua> #link http://wiki.laptop.org/index.php?title=Tests/Activity/Analyze&action=formedit and that'd be what it looks like with the forms to post test case results (at the bottom).
14:52:29 <mchua> Anyway, that's what we're building first.
14:52:48 <mchua> #topic Create test result properties
14:52:57 <mchua> Step 1: Create properties for test results. What fields do you want each test result to have, and what are the allowed values for those fields?
14:53:40 <mchua> Basically, we're saying "what fields do we want in our form for reporting test results?" (For all test results, or at least the ones we're working with right now - not just this individual test case's result, if that makes sense.)
14:54:25 <mchua> And to make this, we use smw properties.
14:54:26 <mchua> #link http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Properties_and_types
14:54:36 <sdziallas> mchua: do I get this correctly, is this something like *success* and *fail*?
14:54:49 <mchua> sdziallas: Yep, that would be one example of a field
14:54:59 <jlaska> others might be different attributes of the tests?
14:55:02 <jlaska> architecture?
14:55:08 <jlaska> platform maybe?
14:55:13 <jlaska> test priority
14:55:21 <jlaska> things you'd later want to filter and query on?
14:55:42 * mchua needs to try to use more consistent terminology for test-system-related stuff - thanks, jlaska!
14:55:44 <mchua> jlaska: exactly
14:56:02 <jlaska> mchua: hey, I'm not the authority ... just another data point
14:56:22 <mchua> So, the property that sdziallas described might be written up as [[success::true]] or [[success::false]]
14:56:36 <mchua> in the smw wiki syntax for properties
14:56:41 <mchua> (which is [[property name::value]])
14:57:05 <mchua> Which means there is a property called "success" and it has the value "true" or "false" respectively
14:57:49 <mchua> or with the examples jlaska brought up, one could have [[architecture::x86]] or [[release::f12]] or such
14:58:11 <jlaska> mchua: do the range of values need to be defined ahead of time?
14:58:26 <jlaska> e.g. ... could they be something like [[VGA_Adapter::____]]
14:58:29 <mchua> jlaska: If you want to constrain that range, yes
14:58:33 <jlaska> okay
14:58:38 <mchua> jlaska: The type of value needs to be defined ahead of time, though.
14:58:50 <jlaska> ah gotcha gotcha
14:58:58 <mchua> #link http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Properties_and_types#Data_types_for_properties
14:59:01 <mchua> that would be the relevant point
14:59:06 <mchua> so basically, think about creating, say, a survey
14:59:16 <mchua> you know the question you want ("Did this test succeed?")
14:59:17 <jlaska> good analogy
14:59:46 <mchua> and then you probably have to pick the format that you want the answer in - for instance, free text? check boxes? a radio box? a drop-down? true/false?
14:59:48 <mchua> same thing here
15:00:23 <mchua> and if the format is something that needs options (what are the options for the checkboxes?), or if you want to place further constraints on what the answer can be (no more than 500 characters, can't contain the word "pudding")
15:00:31 <mchua> then you do a little extra work after you pick that format.
15:00:38 <mchua> sdziallas: ok so far?
15:00:45 * mchua grabs water
15:01:11 <sdziallas> yeah, sounds good to me
15:01:39 <jlaska> but I like pudding :)
15:02:23 * mchua back
15:02:26 * sdziallas smiles :)
15:03:06 <mchua> let's take the simple case, success/failure
15:03:10 <mchua> and build a property for it.
15:03:51 * mchua pulls open OLPC wiki page to yank property wiki syntax. OLPC wiki craaaaaawls.
15:04:34 <sdziallas> (and their planet seems to be down, too... for a few days already.)
15:04:43 <mchua> someone needs to upgrade OLPC's hamster/earthworm/small-exhausted-animal
15:05:28 <sdziallas> "look, behind you, a three headed monkey"
15:06:33 <mchua> ...wiki still crawling
15:06:45 <jlaska> chugga chugga
15:08:22 * mchua gives up, we're going to skip the example and start from scratch
15:08:25 <mchua> sdziallas: you drive ;)
15:08:27 <mchua> #link https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Special:CreateProperty
15:08:30 <mchua> is the form for creating properties.
15:09:10 <mchua> sdziallas: take your best guesses for how to fill out this form, and let us know what you put in and why
15:09:20 <sdziallas> mchua: ahhh! ;)
15:09:34 * sdziallas hopes not to end up with his head close to a wall
15:09:39 * mchua doesn't have a particular right answer in mind, and wants to make sure the logs reflect "hey! we're figuring this out as we go along, there isn't any magic to it!"
15:10:20 * mchua actually doesn't know if there's a proper name for this field, really... "test success"? jlaska, what do we use now?
15:10:26 <sdziallas> mchua: so. you want the property name first, right? following my example, this would be "success", I guess?
15:10:47 <sdziallas> heh.
15:10:50 <mchua> sdziallas: sounds good to me
15:10:59 <mchua> and type?
15:11:31 <jlaska> mchua: test_result? there's probably a more formal ieee definition, but thta's good for now
15:11:42 <sdziallas> mchua: I'd be guessing again... string?
15:11:44 <mchua> sdziallas: ^^
15:11:49 <mchua> jlaska: (danke)
15:12:06 <sdziallas> test_result it is.
15:12:25 <sdziallas> mchua: oh wait...
15:12:33 <mchua> sdziallas: so, that's a good point. we want to capture a quick "success/failure", and we also want to capture a longer "exactly what just happened here?" set of notes.
15:12:36 <sdziallas> mchua: if we only have success or fail, it could be boolean, too?
15:12:45 <mchua> So what that means is that we need two separate properties.
15:12:58 <sdziallas> that makes some sense to me.
15:13:00 <mchua> sdziallas: If this is the success/failure true/false yes/no one, boolean makes the most sense.
15:13:25 <sdziallas> mchua: so one as boolean and one as text?
15:13:30 <mchua> sdziallas: that way we don't have people answering "did this test succeed?" with "porcupine!"
15:13:37 * sdziallas grins
15:13:46 <mchua> sdziallas: Yep. We'll make a second property after this first one, so let's make the boolean one first.
15:14:03 <sdziallas> boolean, it is.
15:14:44 <sdziallas> certain values: do we need to specify "true, false" or "success, failure" there additionally?
15:15:05 <mchua> good question. to find the answer to that, we can look at the documentation on data types
15:15:06 <mchua> #link http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Properties_and_types#List_of_data_types
15:15:16 <mchua> specifically, the boolean type
15:15:17 <mchua> #link http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/Type:Boolean
15:15:54 * sdziallas reminds himself of GIYF
15:15:56 <mchua> and it looks like it already provides a set of values that we can use
15:16:05 <mchua> "You can enter "true" or "false", also 1/0, yes/no, t/f, and y/n."
15:16:10 <mchua> sdziallas: GIYF?
15:16:19 <sdziallas> google is your friend.
15:16:43 * mchua +1 acronym-fu!
15:16:57 <mchua> sdziallas: nah, in this case it's probably faster to ask, docs/google are confusing.
15:17:33 * sdziallas nods...
15:17:34 <mchua> sdziallas: So, based on the boolean docs, I think we're okay (if you're happy with true/false, 1/0, yes/no, t/f, and y/n as entry options)
15:17:45 <mchua> sdziallas: if you want to have two options called "success" and "failure," we can do that too
15:17:56 <sdziallas> yeah, righto.
15:17:59 <mchua> sdziallas: (just not with a boolean - but basically with something that acts as one, but has the words "success" and "failure" instead
15:18:03 <mchua> sdziallas: preference?
15:18:05 <sdziallas> mchua: oh... well, not sure if that's needed.
15:18:15 <sdziallas> jlaska might want to make a call, too.
15:18:29 <mchua> sdziallas: it's not actually that much harder, and it's a one-time setup thing. pick one. ;)
15:18:38 <sdziallas> mchua: I guess it would make sense to have that consistent throughout the cases, no?
15:18:49 <jlaska> mchua: how difficult is it to make adjustments in the future?
15:19:06 <jlaska> does that mess with any existing data logged with the original properites?
15:19:32 <mchua> jlaska: It's a matter of editing a wiki page (but finding that page and figuring out what and how to edit it if you don't already know the system is a pain)
15:19:40 <mchua> jlaska: yes, it would mess with existing data
15:19:44 <mchua> so it's best to set it at the start
15:20:09 * mchua reckons one could set up pywikipediabot to mass-adjust all the affected pages back, though
15:20:26 <jlaska> well ... i think itm ight be more than just 0 || 1
15:21:00 <mchua> (from my experience of it so far, including digging around now, smw is great for test systems that you don't have to maintain for more than, say, 6 months.)
15:21:14 <jlaska> perhaps a range = [pass, fail, blocked]
15:21:22 <mchua> (backwards compatibility for any adjustments is a PITA.)
15:21:40 <mchua> jlaska: blocked = "couldn't test, so we don't know"?
15:21:53 <jlaska> yeah that's right
15:21:57 <mchua> ok
15:22:03 <jlaska> but for semantic ... manually entering that value might be overkill
15:22:17 <jlaska> perhaps we follow the K.I.S.S. principle for now
15:22:36 * mchua looks at how to create drop-down boxes
15:22:56 <mchua> (if this takes more than 5m, then yeah, KISS and boolean.)
15:24:47 <mchua> Ok. I think listing stuff in the "allows value" box will create a drop-down
15:24:48 <mchua> let's find out
15:24:55 * mchua tries
15:25:53 <jlaska> <drum roll>
15:26:23 <wwoods> side note: autotest uses (pass, fail, error)
15:27:11 <mchua> wwoods: thanks! if we need to adjust that, we can do it now (before we start pumping test results through the system)
15:27:25 <mchua> all of this is changeable without any breakage until test results start flowing through, basically
15:27:47 <mchua> #link https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Property:Test_result
15:28:13 <mchua> sdziallas: Sorry, I pre-empted you there... I'll take my hands off the wiki and let you do the second one
15:28:21 <mchua> (and we'll see how this first one comes out once we do the test case)
15:28:23 <sdziallas> mchua: naw, that's fine :)
15:29:19 <mchua> sdziallas: so the second property we know we need was what you brought up earlier, free text for people to write notes on what happened when they ran the test
15:29:45 <sdziallas> mchua: okay. I guess we can't name it just like the one before, can we?
15:30:07 <mchua> sdziallas: yeah, we have to pick something different like test_notes or whatnot
15:30:27 <sdziallas> test_notes doesn't sound too bad to me...
15:30:50 <mchua> jlaska: you wanted each test result in a separate wiki page?
15:31:10 * mchua trying to figure out what datatype to use here, since that'll be the tricky bit that determines how test results get sorted/used/etc
15:31:17 <mchua> #link http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/Type:Page
15:31:49 <mchua> jlaska: ^^ thoughts on "page datatype versus string"? for reference, olpc's system uses string, which is why all the results gets appended to the page
15:31:53 <mchua> of the test case
15:32:21 <jlaska> mchua: well ... yeah I think having the results not on the same page as the test case would be good
15:32:44 <mchua> I'm not exactly sure how the page type would make this work - it would make test results appear on individual pages (result 1 of test case 1, result 2 of test case 1, etc) but I think we can play around and make the rest of it work.
15:32:46 <mchua> ok.
15:32:49 <jlaska> instead, using smw queries in other pages (like test day pages or linked to from test plans) might be more appropriate
15:32:50 <mchua> sdziallas: type page, then
15:32:53 * mchua nods
15:32:56 <sdziallas> okey dokey
15:33:19 <sdziallas> oh... "This property will link to pages that use the form"...
15:33:27 <nanonyme> jlaska: Was it you I talked to about UEFI?
15:34:30 <sdziallas> mchua: I'm not sure I know what to enter there
15:34:31 <jlaska> nanonyme: I think we discussed it a week or so ago.
15:34:33 <nanonyme> Just thought to say the test kinda failed... Setting UEFI boot in system setup seemed to still leave BIOS functionality exposed. (at least kernel commented on BIOS stuff instead of EFI stuff)
15:34:49 <mchua> sdziallas: Hrm. Neither do I. Let's see if we can figure it out
15:34:57 <nanonyme> So unless there's a way to force the kernel not to go with BIOS, might not be possible to test.
15:35:07 <mchua> ...or hit up #semanticmediawiki if googling fails after a minute or two
15:35:14 <sdziallas> mchua: http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/Type:Page isn't really helpful either...
15:36:06 <mchua> sdziallas: So, my best guess here (which I'm willing to go with)
15:36:19 <mchua> is that the property page (like https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Property:Test_result)
15:36:47 <mchua> would link to all pages that used the form we specify here (since we haven't created any forms, we'll have to name one we're creating later)
15:36:58 <mchua> in this case, probably the form called "Test result"
15:37:14 <mchua> So what that means
15:37:59 <mchua> Is that we'll make (in a few minutes) a form called Test result, which will have the properties we're making now (test_result, test_notes) - it'll look like a survey, with the properties as questions
15:38:19 <mchua> When someone fills in that form (a tester submitting a test result), that form will create a page with the information they filled in
15:38:31 <mchua> And mark that page as "created by the form called Test Result"
15:38:38 <sdziallas> mchua: hm, in the code, it concerns something that is called: sf_createproperty_linktoform
15:38:51 <sdziallas> mchua: ah, that makes... somehow (a bit of) sense :)
15:38:58 <mchua> and every page that's marked that way will be linked to by the "test_result" property page
15:39:03 <sdziallas> (and it would go hand in hand with their function being called "linktoform")
15:39:30 <mchua> basically, "$form is the form that uses this property, and here are the things that have been filled out with this form - and therefore use this property"
15:39:44 <mchua> (in other words, "here are all the pages that have some sort of test fail/pass/blocked data on them")
15:39:53 <mchua> sdziallas: mind you, this is my best guess. I may not be correct
15:40:02 <mchua> but that seems logical and makes sense to me
15:40:07 * sdziallas nods slowly
15:40:18 <mchua> so if it makes sense to you, then we can try it, and if we're wrong, we'll figure something out ;)
15:40:54 <sdziallas> okay... but following your argumentation,... do we need to create the form first?
15:40:59 <mchua> sdziallas: in other words, that "this property will link to pages that use the form" field should be filled out "Test result"
15:41:04 <mchua> sdziallas: nope, but we have to remember to create it later
15:41:13 <mchua> (and we will, it's on our todo list)
15:41:16 <sdziallas> okay, so I'll enter "Test result"
15:41:32 <mchua> and if that's it, then go ahead and save
15:41:52 * mchua realizes this is going pretty slowly and taking a long time, but boy are we leaving a bright clear trail to follow...
15:41:55 <mchua> thanks for your patience, sdziallas!
15:42:03 * sdziallas grumbles, logs into mediawiki...
15:42:06 <sdziallas> mchua: :)
15:42:27 <mchua> yay login timeouts!
15:42:36 <sdziallas> mchua: hey, I'm learning something totally new here...
15:42:38 <mchua> Once we've got those two properties, we're ready to move on to the next step.
15:42:41 * mchua too.
15:43:03 * jlaska three
15:43:09 <sdziallas> I'm getting just an empty page with some not-so-well-loading graphic
15:43:14 <mchua> (after we're all done and set up, I'll take this log to the smw experts and say "look, this took a Long Time. Is there a faster way to get the same functionality?")
15:43:29 <sdziallas> (with the URL being https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Special:CreateProperty)
15:43:33 <mchua> sdziallas: I got that for a moment also, as stuff saved... it should go away in a bit
15:43:38 <sdziallas> ah, works :)
15:43:39 <sdziallas> sorry.
15:43:46 <sdziallas> https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Property:Test_notes
15:45:22 <mchua> yay!
15:46:05 <mchua> (The fun part about smw is that it takes some time for everything to sync up - I don't know why, maybe it's a cron job running around and doing db stuff every so often - but anyway, it isn't instantaneous)
15:46:36 <mchua> #action find out why it takes time for smw properties/pages/etc to sync, and how to determine (and hopefully control) that speed
15:46:40 <sdziallas> heh. maybe publictest is a Pentium II 266 MHz? ;)
15:46:53 <mchua> (if we can accelerate it when we're making test cases, and slow it down much of the rest of the time, that's awesome.)
15:47:03 * mchua laughs
15:47:05 <jlaska> mchua: are you finding that the publictest6 speed is just as impacted as the olpc wiki?
15:47:30 <mchua> jlaska: I can't tell yet.
15:47:40 <mchua> sdziallas: We're done making properties and can go to step 2, so to summarize
15:47:46 * jlaska logs into publictest6
15:48:09 <mchua> jlaska: pt6 is much faster at *loading* pages than the olpc wiki, for sure. I don't know how the "smw takes time to sync up in the background" times compare
15:48:17 <mchua> jlaska: but we have a much, much faster hamster
15:48:24 <jlaska> dual core hamster
15:48:36 <mchua> w00t
15:49:25 <mchua> #info we created properties using https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Special:CreateProperty
15:50:03 <mchua> #info the properties we created are https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Property:Test_notes and https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Property:Test_result
15:50:44 <mchua> #info further documentation on properties (including available data types) can be found at http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Properties_and_types
15:50:53 <mchua> ...I think that's exhaustive enough documentation
15:51:01 <mchua> next!
15:51:12 <mchua> #topic Create a template for a test result
15:51:25 * sdziallas feels like a guinea pig. a happy guinea pig.
15:51:40 <mchua> (As we build more parts of this puzzle, it will come together faster and faster, the last few steps should take hardly any time at all)
15:51:44 <mchua> (...I hope)
15:51:57 * jlaska clicky links
15:52:30 <mchua> Okay! Templates.
15:52:45 <mchua> Now that we have properties made, we need to put them on a nice-lookin' page
15:53:03 <mchua> (this is equivalent to "I know the questions I want to ask on my survey, now let me stick them into a webform")
15:53:31 <mchua> (I don't really know how to articulate the difference between Templates and Forms right now, so as we go along that's something to try and figure out.)
15:53:56 <jlaska> I think I understand the difference ... but I don't think I could describe it
15:54:06 <mchua> Yeah, me too.
15:54:08 <jlaska> the form provides a front-end to an existing template?
15:54:16 <jlaska> a/the/a/
15:54:24 <jlaska> is that accurate?
15:54:33 <mchua> jlaska: ...yes. Yes, actually.
15:55:07 <mchua> It's accurate - sdziallas, does it make sense? We need to come up with an explanation that someone who hasn't played with this before will understand right away.
15:55:14 <mchua> in the meantime
15:55:15 <mchua> #link https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Special:CreateTemplate
15:55:22 <sdziallas> mchua: yup, it's understandable (even for me) ;)
15:55:23 <mchua> we get another "yay, fill this out to create stuff" form
15:55:59 <jlaska> oh neat, I didn't know about that special page
15:56:14 * mchua discovered it within the last 24h
15:56:41 * sdziallas notes that he might need to run for ten minutes at some point... (not necessarily now, though, but somewhen.)
15:57:08 <mchua> ok. so properties are "here are the data points that I'm collecting," templates are "here is the order that I want to ask these questions in and the explanation text around it," and forms are "I am filling out my individual result and providing answers to these questions"
15:57:13 <mchua> sdziallas: dude, go get dinner
15:57:17 <sdziallas> mchua: so we'd dump our two recently created created fields there?
15:57:22 <sdziallas> mchua: you can read minds ;)
15:57:28 <jlaska> heh
15:58:07 <sdziallas> okay then... I'll leave you for 10 then.
15:59:57 * mchua takes the chance to grab breakfast
16:00:19 <mchua> ...wait, it's noon. "lunch as a bowl of cheerios" then
16:05:29 <JasonWoof> desktop/gdm backgrounds on the F12-beta livecd look awesome!
16:07:48 <sdziallas> mchua: LOL... morning, noon... who cares? :)
16:08:05 * sdziallas is pretty close to beating his ten minutes, isn't he?
16:08:53 <mchua> sdziallas: aye. ready when you are.
16:09:06 <sdziallas> mchua: I am.
16:10:25 <sdziallas> mchua: (I've probably an hour or more here, but should get some homework done afterwards, too. but let's not rush, I'm still on schedule) ;)
16:10:46 <mchua> Okay - let's see if we can get through the template and form creation process for a test result then, we're on https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Special:CreateTemplate
16:11:21 <mchua> sdziallas: I figure in the worst case we can manually collect the info for SoaS testing tomorrow just on individual wiki pages, since there are really only 3 test cases
16:11:30 <mchua> (though I'd love to be able to test the smw system someday)
16:11:47 <mchua> and we can test the system by putting the stuff in later, after the test day's done, since we have so few test cases and probably a small number of dedicated testers
16:12:03 <mchua> (which is nice, since we're still trying to figure all this out, and we can pay attention better to what is going on)
16:12:08 * sdziallas hms... okay
16:15:52 <mchua> sdziallas: so, what do you think we should put for https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Special:CreateTemplate ?
16:16:19 <mchua> Template name should be "Test result" (that's what we're going to call the template and the form that fills it, it's a good idea to have the convention of keeping those two the same)
16:16:25 <mchua> Beyond that, your call
16:18:19 <sdziallas> mchua: we presumably want test_result and test_notes for two fields, right?
16:18:57 <mchua> sdziallas: Yep, that would be the values for the "semantic property" field
16:19:38 <mchua> sdziallas: (ooh - I'll be asking you to take a screenshot when you have the CreateTemplate form all filled in, for posterity)
16:19:50 <mchua> (right before you hit the 'save page' button)
16:20:25 <sdziallas> mchua: heh. sure, I'll get you one ;)
16:21:36 <sdziallas> mchua: ah, and for the field names, we can just enter 1 and 2?
16:22:25 <jlaska> JasonWoof: I like how they use a slideshow to showcast the proposed backgrounds
16:22:47 <mchua> sdziallas: the field name is the name of the field, the display name is the text that will show up next to the answer entry box
16:23:24 <sdziallas> mchua: so display name could be "Result" and "Evaluation" or something like that? or s/evaluation/details... whatsoever
16:23:46 <mchua> sdziallas: so I might do field name = Test result, display = "Did the test succeed, fail, or block (were you unable to run this test and determine whether it would succeed or fail)" and property = test_result
16:23:50 <mchua> sdziallas: I'm making this up
16:24:08 <mchua> sdziallas: it's basically the "question text" that goes around the "put your answer here" text box
16:26:52 <mchua> sdziallas: oh - and you definitely want to put in a "category defined by template" (Test result) so that all of the test results are in that category too
16:28:33 <mchua> sdziallas: ...oh. I just realized we probably want to have properties for "product under test" and "version" for our test result pages. Whoops.
16:29:08 <sdziallas> mchua: so creating new properties now?
16:29:55 <mchua> sdziallas: Nah, saving it as a note for later. We're just collecting SoaS test cases; we know what thing everyone's testing and what version, and can look at page histories to see who reported what.
16:30:08 <mchua> But next time we set this up, I should... remember this.
16:30:39 <mchua> #info remember to make "product under test," "version," and "tester contact info" properties next time
16:31:36 <mchua> sdziallas: I think you should be able to fill in the CreateTemplate page now, you can ignore everything in the "aggregation" and "output format" sections.
16:32:00 <sdziallas> mchua: okay... should I add a new field, too?
16:32:21 <mchua> sdziallas: Yep, two fields - one for test_result and one for test_notes.
16:32:44 <mchua> sdziallas: http://imagebin.ca/ when you're done ;)
16:34:29 <sdziallas> mchua: http://imagebin.ca/view/DVyuZph.html
16:35:03 <jlaska> brb ...
16:35:31 <mchua> sdziallas: can you also put "Test result" in "category defined by template," at the top?
16:35:57 <mchua> sdziallas: (then imagebin again, and save, and we'll be done with this section)
16:36:01 <mchua> (btw I love your firefox skin)
16:36:02 <sdziallas> mchua: done. the 2nd display field is so far: "Please enter any specific observations you made or specific issues you encounter here:"
16:36:05 <sdziallas> mchua: :)
16:36:58 <sdziallas> mchua: last minute changes to be done there?
16:36:58 <mchua> sdziallas: awesome
16:37:00 <mchua> sdziallas: none
16:37:03 <sdziallas> mchua: http://imagebin.ca/view/mCXdr249.html
16:37:06 <sdziallas> mchua: cool!
16:37:17 <mchua> sdziallas: go ahead and save that and let me know what you get
16:37:40 <sdziallas> mchua: a white page with... ah, you knew already that. let the hamster rock ;)
16:38:13 <mchua> http://hampsterdance.com/
16:38:16 <sdziallas> mchua: that looks well to me
16:38:17 <sdziallas> https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Template:Test_result
16:38:20 * sdziallas goes looking
16:38:51 <sdziallas> mchua: LOL :) if it was in pink, I'd bet you got it from Mo...
16:39:21 <mchua> #link https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Template:Test_result
16:40:45 <mchua> sdziallas: naw, it's "Mel is old" - the original hamster dance (http://www.webhamster.com/) became a meme when I was in middle school.
16:40:53 <mchua> yay! We're done with templates!
16:40:58 <mchua> See, I told you we'd go faster as this went on.
16:41:06 <mchua> Summary time!
16:41:35 <mchua> #info we used https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Special:CreateTemplate to create a template that used the properties we made in the last step.
16:41:39 <sdziallas> mchua: LOL! :) hamster dance is... w00t!
16:41:56 <mchua> #info http://imagebin.ca/view/mCXdr249.html (temporarily) has a screenshot of the filled-in CreateTemplate form.
16:42:14 <mchua> #info this makes a Test result template page, https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Template:Test_result, in Category:Test result.
16:42:52 <mchua> #info More information on the use of templates in smw can be found at http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Semantic_templates
16:42:53 <mchua> #link http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Semantic_templates
16:43:06 <mchua> (should have found that link in the beginning really, but oh well)
16:43:10 <mchua> ONWARDS!
16:43:24 <mchua> #topic Create a form that creates test results
16:43:56 * sdziallas guesses...
16:43:57 <sdziallas> https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Special:CreateForm
16:44:31 <mchua> sdziallas: beat me to it!
16:44:53 <sdziallas> mchua: okey dokey... so name is Test results, I suppose
16:45:21 <sdziallas> s/results/result
16:45:24 <mchua> sdziallas: Yep - either "Test result" or "Test results," depending on whether you named the last one plural or singular
16:45:27 <mchua> sdziallas: singular. Yup.
16:45:32 <sdziallas> :)
16:45:51 <mchua> sdziallas: Actually! While you're doing that, I just realized I could make another template with the tester's contact info and all that, uh...
16:45:52 <sdziallas> ...and add the template Test result?
16:45:54 <mchua> Yes.
16:46:00 <sdziallas> ah, I see...
16:46:20 <mchua> I'm going to make two new templates real quick here, "Product under test" and "Tester information," and you can add those in too
16:46:27 <sdziallas> (mchua: well, not sure where we'd want the hardware info, for example...)
16:46:37 <sdziallas> mchua: (only in the first test case or in all?)
16:46:45 <sdziallas> mchua: okey dokey :)
16:46:48 <mchua> sdziallas: "tester information" (name, contact info, testing setup)
16:46:56 <sdziallas> mchua: cool!
16:47:06 <mchua> sdziallas: so, if you want to do homework or something for 15 min while I throw that together...
16:47:28 <sdziallas> mchua: okay... I could set the time for the test day (and announce it widely, for example)
16:48:33 <mchua> sdziallas: do that, yes!
16:49:08 * mchua logging things here, will ping sdziallas when finished.
16:49:14 <mchua> creating property "Tester_email" (type: email)
16:49:21 <mchua> hamster spins...
16:49:41 <mchua> ...wait, that's not actually useful
16:50:05 <mchua> creating property "Tester_FAS_account" (type...  string or text... deciding...)
16:50:46 <mchua> type string, since FAS account names won't be more than 255 characters (the limit for string)
16:51:00 <mchua> and the text type isn't searchable/sortable on (but can be longer than 255 chars)
16:51:35 * mchua watches hamster dance
17:00:03 <mchua> https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Property:Tester_FAS_account
17:06:34 <mchua> #link https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Property:Test_hardware
17:06:43 <mchua> #link https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Property:Tester_FAS_account
17:08:10 * mchua watches hamster dance
17:11:18 <wwoods> puppies dressed as kittens!
17:15:23 <mchua> #link https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Template:Tester_information
17:16:22 <mchua> sdziallas_: we're testing the Strawberry version of Soas, based on F11? F12?
17:17:11 <sdziallas> mchua: it's the... *drum roll*: SoaS v2 Beta
17:17:37 <sdziallas> (strawberry is v1)
17:18:03 <mchua> sdziallas: yay! and what fedora version is it based on?
17:18:20 <sdziallas> F12, of course :)
17:18:22 <mchua> sdziallas: (I am assuming, perhaps wrongly, that a fedora version maps to an SoaS version, and vice versa)
17:18:23 <mchua> ooo!
17:18:42 <sdziallas> (well, F12 Alpha.)
17:18:49 <mchua> #link https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Property:Component
17:18:52 <sdziallas> you are assuming correctly ;)
17:19:20 <mchua> Okay. jlaska, what do we call that? F12 = version, Alpha =release?
17:19:30 * mchua making properties real quick
17:23:03 <mchua> ...version and release it is.
17:24:26 <jlaska> mchua: sorry, back ...
17:24:48 <jlaska> product, version, release (Fedora, 12, Alpha) would work
17:25:01 <mchua> ah, product. Okay.
17:25:02 <jlaska> Product, milestone could work too (Fedora 12, Alpha)
17:25:15 <sdziallas> jlaska: does this look okay for a final announcement? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2009-09-03_SoaS
17:25:25 <mchua> jlaska: I'll do product, version, release
17:25:27 <sdziallas> jlaska: (we'd throw the link to the tests then)
17:26:39 <jlaska> sdziallas: looking good, maybe we can add a link to instructions on how to burn the live image?
17:26:47 * jlaska locates link
17:27:19 <sdziallas> jlaska: yup (we might want to use some specifics...) should I dump the stuff from here (http://etherpad.com/ygjaVsnrax) there?
17:27:35 <sdziallas> jlaska: it could go in the "How to test?" category...
17:28:13 <jlaska> sdziallas: yeah, let's add that content ... and then we can massage as needed
17:28:22 <sdziallas> okay, cool!
17:28:29 <jlaska> either by splitting it out into separate pages on publictest6 ... or however else it makes sense
17:33:35 * mchua still watching hamsters dance
17:33:51 * mchua needs to increase any smw related time estimates by an order of magnitude. 15 minutes my ass.
17:33:56 <mchua> #link https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Property:Release
17:34:21 <mchua> (though that's more my own fault for context switching while waiting for smw than smw's fault for being slow.)
17:35:27 <sdziallas> jlaska: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2009-09-03_SoaS
17:35:27 * mchua making template. hamsters dancing.
17:35:30 <sdziallas> jlaska: that's better?
17:35:33 <sdziallas> :)
17:35:42 * sdziallas updates test case draft in etherpad
17:38:23 * sdziallas hints at: http://etherpad.com/ygjaVsnrax
17:41:42 <mchua> #link https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Template:Product_under_test
17:41:47 <mchua> sdziallas: You can haz templates!
17:41:50 <mchua> sdziallas: sorry for the delay
17:41:53 <mchua> sdziallas: you can make the form now
17:42:21 <mchua> sdziallas: three templates: the one you made earlier (test results), and then the templates "tester information" and "product under test"
17:42:22 <sdziallas> mchua: naw, take your time :) (without marketing, we wouldn't need a release, either)
17:42:36 <mchua> without a release, we wouldn't need marketing. mm, symbiosis!
17:42:45 <sdziallas> mchua: I guess test notes, too?
17:42:56 <sdziallas> mchua: shht. nobody noticed until you mentioned that... ;)
17:44:34 <sdziallas> (ah, drop the last question... that's for forms)
17:45:05 <mchua> sdziallas: aye, making forms - if you can screenshot that before you save it too, that'd be great
17:45:47 <sdziallas> mchua: could we get a space for the folks to paste their smolt profile and their usb key modell, too? (sorry, I'm... heh.)
17:46:26 <mchua> sdziallas: well, you know how to make properties now, so go ahead and make those :)
17:46:31 <sdziallas> mchua: :)
17:47:00 <sdziallas> mchua: we want this to be a page, too, right?
17:47:13 <sdziallas> or just a string?
17:47:31 <mchua> sdziallas: ...page, I'd say.
17:47:36 <mchua> somewhat arbitrarily.
17:48:29 <sdziallas> mchua: name: Hardware information?
17:48:44 <mchua> sdziallas: once you get the properties made, this is a good time to see what the semantic template text actually looks like - you should be able to just directly edit the https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Template:Tester_information template page and add those properties in.
17:49:00 <mchua> sdziallas: Smolt profile, I'd say. The more specific/accurate we can get, the better.
17:49:01 <sdziallas> mchua: ah, better: Smolt profile
17:49:04 <sdziallas> :)
17:49:08 <mchua> sdziallas: great minds think alike :)
17:49:09 <sdziallas> mchua: and... USB key model?
17:49:17 <sdziallas> mchua: heh! :)
17:49:43 <sdziallas> mchua: (not sure this is really needed, but we had some folks complaining about issues with their USB keys and we'd like to give a recommendation at some point...)
17:51:46 <mchua> sdziallas: hm, trying to think of a way that would be more easily generalizable to Fedora test cases
17:51:47 <mchua> sdziallas: "install media"?
17:51:47 <mchua> sdziallas: then when SoaS testers show up we can say "just put your USB key model in this field"
17:51:47 <mchua> sdziallas: but later on jlaska could use the same thing for installation testing with different methods
17:52:12 <sdziallas> mchua: yeah, that sounds like a good idea (and if folks used virtual machines, that would be fine, too)
17:52:35 * mchua prevents self from going into a long ramble about USB key manufacturing differences
17:52:49 <mchua> sdziallas: cool, lemme know when you're done or if you run into any trouble editing the template page
17:53:02 <mchua> good catch! I totally didn't think of those fields.
17:53:19 <sdziallas> mchua: hm, want me to limit it then for install media?
17:53:27 <sdziallas> mchua: or allow everything for now?
17:55:01 * sdziallas allows everything to get people to enter their usb key model there
17:56:43 <mchua> sdziallas: free text!
17:56:46 <mchua> sdziallas: exactly right.
17:58:13 <sdziallas> mchua: aahhhh!
17:58:27 * sdziallas should watch out next time.
17:58:33 * sdziallas hides in a corner.
17:59:00 <mchua> sdziallas: ?
17:59:05 <sdziallas> mchua: can we change the default form of a property by just modifying the properties page?
18:00:08 * sdziallas grumbles. sorry.
18:01:20 <sdziallas> mchua: ahh! no, everything okay :) I'm just getting confused
18:03:11 <iarlyy> hey I installed f12ppc, but it's not asking for I choose partition layout I want nor what packages I want to install
18:03:56 <sdziallas> mchua: http://imagebin.ca/view/3vD3gWN.html
18:04:19 <iarlyy> installed is doing a pre defined partition layout?
18:04:36 <iarlyy> sed/installed/installation/
18:09:22 <mchua> sdziallas: Awesome. Let's see where we are...
18:09:56 <sdziallas> mchua: not sure what else to enter there...
18:10:18 <mchua> sdziallas: Yay!
18:10:19 <mchua> sdziallas: https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Form:Test_case
18:10:21 <mchua> #link https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Form:Test_case
18:10:50 <mchua> ...wait, you made a Test results form, not a test case form
18:10:54 <sdziallas> mchua: do you want me to create the form first or not?
18:10:56 <mchua> sdziallas: hang on, I think smw is syncing...
18:11:05 <mchua> sdziallas: oh! yes, push the button and create the form
18:11:12 <sdziallas> mchua: I didn't make it, yet, I sent it to you for confirmation...
18:11:36 <mchua> sdziallas: Sorry, didn't mean to bottleneck you. You're all good to go.
18:12:02 <sdziallas> hehe. you are not... *bottlenecking* me :) (+1 to vocabulary-fu)
18:12:57 <sdziallas> mchua: now I'm here: https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Form:Test_result
18:14:00 <mchua> sdziallas: YES!!!
18:14:05 <sdziallas> :)
18:14:09 <mchua> #link https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Form:Test_result
18:14:14 <mchua> Okay, we're done with this part then
18:14:32 <mchua> We've basically created the underlying infrastructure for test results, which is *the* hard part
18:14:40 <mchua> sdziallas: how much more time do you have?
18:14:43 * mchua summarizes
18:14:56 <jlaska> mchua: holy cow, awesome!
18:15:07 <mchua> #info we used https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Special:CreateForm to create a form with the template(s) we'd made earlier
18:15:19 <mchua> #info the result was https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Form:Test_result
18:15:31 <sdziallas> mchua: as much as needed to get all this done & converted. (though I'll need to finish French, and postpone Math to tomorrow. but that might work.)
18:16:11 <mchua> #info and you can find more information about creating semantic forms at http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Semantic_Forms
18:17:00 <mchua> #topic Submitting a test reporort
18:17:08 <mchua> #topic learning how to spell
18:17:11 <mchua> #topic submitting a test report
18:17:54 <mchua> sdziallas: Ok, now we're going to see how the stuff we just made works.
18:17:56 <mchua> fingers crossed.
18:18:00 <mchua> I'm on https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Form:Test_result
18:18:36 * sdziallas is, too ;)
18:18:39 <mchua> I'm typing in 'test result example' and clicking the button
18:18:50 <mchua> ...actually, "test result example 1"
18:18:58 <mchua> hamsters dance...
18:19:03 <mchua> AHAHAHAHA!!!!
18:19:22 <sdziallas> ?
18:19:37 <mchua> I'll show you
18:19:41 <mchua> well, you'll see it if you hit the button
18:19:46 * mchua uploads to imagebin
18:25:26 <mchua> jlaska: http://imagebin.ca/view/MkU8RxMP.html
18:26:30 <sdziallas> mchua: is this bad?
18:26:47 <mchua> sdziallas: no, it's good!
18:27:03 * mchua just filled out and submitted that test result form, hamsters dancing, let's see if this works...
18:27:06 <sdziallas> mchua: ahhhh! I thought you were crying because it was bad :p
18:27:08 <mchua> WOOO
18:27:08 <mchua> https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_result_example_1
18:27:17 <jlaska> mchua: that's amazing!
18:27:30 <sdziallas> mchua: w00t! :)
18:28:14 <mchua> It's breathtakingly ugly, but it *works*
18:28:42 <mchua> I think we're at a good stopping point right now, since sdziallas should do homework at some point in time.
18:29:00 <sdziallas> mchua: hm...
18:29:10 <sdziallas> where do we direct folks to then tomorrow?
18:29:17 <mchua> Tomorrow, we can just tell people to name their test results "<name of test> <FAS username>"
18:29:36 * mchua changes topic so we can have a better log of this, one sec
18:29:46 <sdziallas> mchua: yeah yeah, but we don't have the test cases anywhere
18:29:49 <mchua> #topic Setup for SoaS test day
18:29:50 <jlaska> should we provide a link that has that already ... similar to those olpc '+' links?
18:30:19 <mchua> jlaska: Ideally, yes, but that might be something to set up on a second "smw test case setup" sprint round.
18:30:34 <mchua> (I'm not sure how much longer it would take to get to the next logical stopping point.)
18:30:51 <mchua> sdziallas: here's what I'm thinking we tell people to do tomorrow.
18:31:03 <mchua> sdziallas: you have test cases already written out, we'll just put them on the SoaS Test Day wiki page
18:31:47 <mchua> sdziallas: then we'll say "for each test case, go to https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Form:Test_result and make a form called "<name of test> <your FAS username>""
18:32:26 <mchua> (for instance, I would go to that page and do... "Put SoaS on a USB key mchua"
18:32:28 <mchua> )
18:32:32 <sdziallas> mchua: okay, that makes sense
18:32:41 <mchua> sdziallas: then they do the test and fill out the test case, and we should have all the information
18:32:48 <sdziallas> mchua: yup, +1 :)
18:33:22 <mchua> #link https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/w/Category:Test_result
18:33:24 <mchua> will have all the test results
18:33:39 <mchua> and there'll be probably few enough that we can take them and play around a bit afterwards and see what semantic has gained us
18:33:49 <mchua> (and then use those results to play around with creating reports)
18:33:53 * sdziallas nods...
18:34:00 <mchua> #topic Things that are missing from our smw test case system
18:34:04 <mchua> * test cases
18:34:11 <mchua> (note that so far we have only provided an entry for test results)
18:34:20 <mchua> * test result reporting
18:34:33 <mchua> (we'll make result report pages once we actually get results, so we have data to play with)
18:34:38 <mchua> * test plans
18:34:51 <mchua> (which rely on having test cases, so that'll get tackled after the "test cases" part)
18:35:11 <mchua> ...any other magical functionality we'd like here? sdziallas, jlaska?
18:35:26 <sdziallas> mchua: I'll just send the announcement now and blog about it quickly (we'll need to add the stuff in the wiki, too, but hopefully are all set after that.)
18:35:45 <sdziallas> mcha: nope, that sounds to me like a very good summary... of what we'll need to do soooon :)
18:37:15 <mchua> sdziallas: Ok. Can you take it from here, then?
18:37:24 <sdziallas> mchua: I will...
18:37:32 <sdziallas> mchua: (and do homework then)
18:38:07 <mchua> sdziallas: Ok - I'm going to end this meeting, if you can figure out somewhere useful to toss the logs, and cc me on whatever mailing list message gets the link, I'll make sure it gets forwarded out to the smw folks too.
18:38:37 <sdziallas> mchua: okay, cool :)
18:38:40 <mchua> sdziallas: thanks for taking the time to set this up, and putting up with my "whoa, well, this is the first time we're doing something like this..." teaching!
18:38:49 <mchua> figuring things out as you go along == fun
18:38:56 <mchua> #endmeeting