fedora-mktg
LOGS
21:05:54 <mchua> #startmeeting
21:05:54 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Feb  2 21:05:54 2010 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
21:05:56 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
21:05:58 <mchua> #chair rbergeron inode0
21:05:58 <zodbot> Current chairs: inode0 mchua rbergeron
21:06:03 <rrix> What thread is this?
21:06:03 * yn1v has to run for another meeting
21:06:15 * mchua waves to yn1v - see you later, Neville!
21:06:24 <inode0> I see marketing sort of doing two things (just visible to me watching from a distance)
21:06:28 <rbergeron> devel list - board efforts
21:06:31 * rbergeron will find the link
21:06:46 <rrix> okay, i have the thread, just need the name :^)
21:07:11 <inode0> (1) Marketing with ambassadors to end  users and hopefully contributors using mainly the distribution as the marketing vehicle (with some message from the person delivering it)
21:07:31 * rrix will bbl
21:07:41 <rbergeron> #link http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2010-February/130157.html
21:07:49 <inode0> (2) Red Hat press releases - cool but how many of us subscribe to that RSS feed?
21:08:34 <inode0> Is there any marketing push directed at potential contributors beyond using the distribution as the vehicle?
21:09:12 * mchua reading thread to catch up, hasn't gotten to list email yet today.
21:09:17 <rbergeron> a little context: i replied to part of the thread on "target audience" stuff - basically saying, it's a good thing to know who we know who we are marketing to.
21:09:27 <rbergeron> or narrow the scope a little.
21:09:45 <mchua> inode0: btw, thanks for bringing this up - it's good for us to listen outside our echo chamber as much as we can. ;)
21:09:47 <rbergeron> inode0, i haven't gotten to responding to you onlist yet but i'll kind of dump a bit here:
21:10:08 <rbergeron> to me, marketing should basically be targeting 3 types of groups in our content / efforts:
21:10:15 <mchua> inode0: Have you gotten a chance to look at http://blog.melchua.com/2009/12/24/whats-marketing-doing-for-f13-anyway-a-show-with-dancing-penguins/ ? that's my best "what does Marketing do?" braindump.
21:10:16 <rbergeron> potential contributors
21:10:21 <rbergeron> potential end users
21:10:26 * mchua sits back and listens
21:10:27 <rbergeron> and .... press people.
21:10:43 <rbergeron> so as it is, right now, basically marketing has a list of deliverables that we do
21:10:58 <rbergeron> one-page release notes, mchua fill me in here with a link, press release writing, etc.
21:11:17 <rbergeron> but we haven't really moved into the phase of "we have a steady stream of content addressing mulltiple groups."
21:11:33 <rbergeron> part of that is, we just never really started it, and that's one of the things we're doing at our upcoming marketing FAD in march.
21:11:53 <rbergeron> another thing is, we have not quite as many contributors as maybe we could.
21:12:02 <rbergeron> we have good contributors, i'd like to add :)
21:12:11 <rbergeron> but with the amount of resources in terms of people time
21:12:22 <rbergeron> being able to focus that effort on bang for the buck i think is important.
21:12:36 <rbergeron> we could address everyone on the planet
21:12:41 <rbergeron> focus one those 3 groups
21:12:47 <rbergeron> or heavily focus on one group, or another
21:13:01 <rbergeron> that should say focus -on- those 3 groups
21:13:02 <inode0> those groups seem fine to me
21:13:02 <rbergeron> ;)
21:13:15 <rbergeron> but it's a matter of getting all ducks in a row, which is something we're working towards.
21:13:18 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing#Release_deliverables
21:13:19 <rbergeron> better content, more focused content.
21:13:30 <inode0> here is the part where I disconnect a bit
21:13:34 * rbergeron nods
21:13:44 * rbergeron is kind of braindumping and certainly doesn't speak for everyone :)
21:13:56 <mchua> inode0: ^^ stuff we're making for the F13 cycle - for the F13 Desktop Spin, as an example (with instructions) on how other groups can make deliverables like that for whatever they are making
21:14:15 * mchua also braindumping and doesn't speak for everyone either.
21:14:25 <inode0> at a booth giving out media I think we are mainly hitting the user group (and hoping to snag a small number of contributors sort of incidentally)
21:14:35 * mchua nods, agrees with this
21:14:49 * rbergeron agrees as well
21:14:53 <inode0> the press part is fine, but also largely misses the contributor group
21:15:26 * rbergeron nods
21:15:36 <inode0> so I'm wondering if there isn't some alternate way to reach out to the contributor pool with the message, that we just aren't quite hitting on yet?
21:15:42 <rbergeron> one thing i think to point  out here is: we want to address that
21:15:48 <rbergeron> ahh. you're beating me to it
21:15:59 <rbergeron> what is the message that we want to send :)
21:16:11 <threethirty> we come in peace?
21:16:17 <mchua> inode0: so, look at http://blog.melchua.com/2009/12/24/whats-marketing-doing-for-f13-anyway-a-show-with-dancing-penguins/ and scroll down to the "extremely unscientific diagram" and start reading around there
21:16:17 <rbergeron> well. that might work ;)
21:16:19 <inode0> heh
21:16:26 <mchua> inode0: I'm curious how much that meshes with the sort of thing you're thinking of
21:16:37 <mchua> because if there's a diff, then there's probably something we should be doing :)
21:16:43 <rbergeron> but seriously: i think new contributors in a lot of cases need... a pathway lit up for them.
21:16:58 <rbergeron> and they probably want to see something to the effect of, why should i invest my time here, as opposed to elsewhere
21:17:06 <rbergeron> how does this mesh with what i want to contribute
21:17:16 <rbergeron> there are a zillion niche-y distros out there.
21:17:27 <rbergeron> not that i want to corner us into a niche, by any means
21:17:43 <inode0> exactly, and I don't think watching wobbly windows grabs them :)
21:18:02 <rbergeron> but if we have goals, and peole can see those and say, aha! these guys are going somewhere. theyhave a plan.
21:18:07 <rbergeron> (not a cylon plan)
21:18:17 <rbergeron> then that makes it a more attractive place for them.
21:18:25 <AamirBhutto> Artistic work mchua
21:18:31 * threethirty has been in and out for the last bit here
21:18:33 * rbergeron is still braindumping
21:18:35 <inode0> so I'm not sure that using the actual distribution to attract them, as opposed to marketing "the project" is effective? does that make sense?
21:18:52 <threethirty> who are we trying to market to, contributers is a huge demo
21:18:56 <rbergeron> we need to market the community and not the product :)
21:19:27 <rbergeron> but at the same time, we should market the product as well so that it looks like a successful community to be part of.
21:19:52 <inode0> I think we are seeing more talks at conferences about the community, and this might be one way. But those reach small numbers of people.
21:20:27 * rbergeron nods
21:21:02 <JonRob> i always thought the interest in fedora mktg wasn't promoting fedora over ubuntu/opensuse/other end product
21:21:19 <JonRob> but promoting fedora as a good place to get stuff done for upstream
21:21:27 <JonRob> so it benefits everyone in the floss eco-system
21:21:45 <Southern_Gentlem> JonRob,  who said anything like that
21:22:06 <JonRob> Southen_Gentlem?
21:22:45 <Southern_Gentlem> JonRob,  the way  iread your statement i read it promoteing fedora while running down the other groups
21:22:46 <JonRob> nobody in particular, but it's the impression i've always had of what fedora cares about it
21:22:54 <JonRob> oh right i see
21:23:08 <JonRob> well.. not necessarily running down other products
21:23:15 <JonRob> but promoting fedora as a great end-product
21:23:18 <Southern_Gentlem> and i didnt see anyone else even suggest that
21:23:19 <JonRob> rather than as a means to an end
21:23:22 <inode0> Well, let's back up. What does marketing think about the metric pointed out showing lack of growth on downloads? Does that mean anything important to marketing?
21:23:39 * rbergeron is still not sure on that.
21:23:45 <JonRob> inode0: i think that's what i was getting at, don't think that's such an important issue
21:24:00 <inode0> Or spun around more generally, what are the end goals of marketing.
21:24:00 <rbergeron> i think one of the things i'd like to do with some of the end-user research stuff is ask things like
21:24:37 <rbergeron> "are you running older versions and are happy with it's functionality"
21:24:46 <rbergeron> things like that.
21:24:55 * rbergeron subtracks apostrophe so as to not look silly
21:25:28 <rbergeron> do you think lack of growth on downloads is reflective of marketing not reaching enoughpeople who want to go out and download things?
21:25:43 <rbergeron> or not being able to convince people to switch or try a new distro?
21:25:57 * inode0 needs to run down the hall and sign a sympathy card ... be back asap
21:26:04 <Southern_Gentlem> of course one of the the comments i here the most about fedora is I Love Fedora, but i dont like its short Lifespan
21:26:06 * rbergeron nods
21:26:23 <rbergeron> well, i think that varies on who you ask
21:26:32 <rbergeron> if you ask a regular desktop user, then that is possible
21:26:47 <rbergeron> if you ask an engineer, having something really stable that is the latest and greatest is awesome.
21:27:01 <Southern_Gentlem> rbergeron,  we are getting ready to put our desktop users on opensuse
21:27:02 <rbergeron> completely tested and solid every 6 months.
21:27:48 <Southern_Gentlem> rbergeron,  that is also depends on your propective
21:27:50 <rbergeron> and on the end goals of marketing.... we're getting there.
21:28:18 <rbergeron> it's a big agenda item for our FAD.
21:28:25 <inode0> back
21:28:30 <Southern_Gentlem> solid for ATI users hasnt happened for a couple of relelases
21:28:42 <rbergeron> and making sure that our goals are in line with the end goals of the distro
21:28:48 <rbergeron> i think is important
21:29:10 <rbergeron> we have other goals, such as getting specific marketing infrastructure pieces up and running, like Fedora insight, for example
21:29:19 <rbergeron> and meeting basic deliverables, obviously
21:29:41 <rbergeron> but tbh, i don't know how much anyone in marketing has focused on it in the past, having broader goals.
21:29:47 <rbergeron> which is why we're doing it.
21:29:49 <Southern_Gentlem> rbergeron,  which i know nothing about but i can tell you what we get asked at shows and the #fedora channel
21:30:16 <rbergeron> you get asked what?
21:30:38 <Southern_Gentlem> we will cover it at the fad
21:31:12 <rbergeron> ah
21:31:27 * mchua afk for a bit, brb
21:31:35 <rbergeron> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing_FAD_2010
21:32:07 <rbergeron> so, inode0, i don't know if this is helpful or interesting at all to you other than "we're getting there. we swear" :)
21:32:58 <inode0> it is interesting and I'm really interested in whether we can better define "contributor" and find novel ways to make Fedora visible and cool to that group
21:33:15 * rbergeron nods
21:33:34 <rbergeron> and i think there are a lot of things we can do in that regard.
21:34:07 <rbergeron> even if it's just basic things like.... having more of a presence on linux-related websites, working with students, reaching out to individual projects, etc.
21:34:08 <inode0> and in the couple of years I've been paying attention I have heard a lot of talk about attracting contributors, and somehow we are doing it, but I don't quite see how
21:34:27 <rbergeron> well, i guess a good question to ask then is
21:34:30 <rbergeron> "why did you come here"
21:34:40 <rbergeron> and see if we can start replicating those circumstances more :)
21:35:09 <rbergeron> if we're being successful at doing -something-, we should probably figure out what it is so we make sure to keep doing it, or do it better, or more often, or more visibly.
21:35:47 <inode0> FUDCon certainly is one good venue that will attract contributors and the growth of those around the world will certainly help
21:36:25 <rbergeron> do you think that attracts new contributors, or just strengthens relationships with existing contributors?
21:36:43 <inode0> I think when held in new places it does
21:37:26 <inode0> not the point, just a side-effect
21:37:26 <rbergeron> "these ppl are awesomez, how do i get involved"
21:38:28 <inode0> I'm curious too about other events this target market attends ... maybe we should be at sci-fi cons and other non-traditional for Fedora events?
21:38:42 * rbergeron will be first in line to volunteer for comic-con ;)
21:38:48 <inode0> that too
21:39:06 <rbergeron> that's certainly a valid point
21:39:18 <inode0> I personally want to see our event presence grow beyond community linux conferences
21:39:44 <rbergeron> and tbh i don't know where the line between ambassadors and marketing goes when it comes to doing fedora-stuff at these events
21:40:05 <inode0> but other cons need to have potential contributors, art, design, whatever
21:40:08 * rbergeron looks around for others with that info
21:40:15 * rbergeron nods
21:40:54 <rbergeron> yes, i think we could certainly do more in terms of attracting non-developer contributors
21:41:07 <rbergeron> spreading the idea of open-source around other groups is more difficult
21:41:28 <rbergeron> know what i mean :)
21:41:32 * rbergeron will bbias
21:41:45 <inode0> we are I think totally failing at conference events at connecting with a large percentage of those we want to connect with
21:42:23 <inode0> meaning we only meet a small fraction at those events (of contributor types)
21:45:01 <threethirty> i think the key to getting people interested is having great talks in specific areas at cons
21:45:20 <threethirty> i was drawn to the project through a talk spot gave on licensing
21:46:18 <threethirty> when you are giving a talk you have a captive audience and you know who is there
21:47:12 <threethirty> a licencing talk drew Freedom Crusaders and coders (it was a talk from a hacers perspective)
21:47:30 * rbergeron is back
21:47:41 <rbergeron> cappuccino machine giving me the business.... fail
21:48:07 <rbergeron> inode0: do you think that less booth and more... actual presentations at conferences might be better?
21:48:32 <rbergeron> or... some sort of combination of more heavy booth presence when we're doing presentations and such?
21:48:52 <rbergeron> or not getting a bang for the buck on either of those fronts?
21:49:54 <threethirty> rbergeron: the booth is nessisary, even if its halfassed its needed, if you dont have on it makes peopel suspicious
21:50:07 <inode0> We pretty much have round the clock booth presence, we can handle that plus all the talks we can give.
21:50:17 * rbergeron nods
21:51:07 <inode0> The booth is always popular, we do draw a crowd. I'm not so sure what becomes of them when they leave though.
21:51:24 <rbergeron> "look! i got a sticker!"
21:52:17 <rbergeron> what does the booth proces entail? just... here's the rundown, here's a cd / key, have fun?
21:52:18 <threethirty> thats what a booth is, its a swag delivery machine, its too crowded to get any real connections with people
21:52:52 <rbergeron> or is there any effort to say, we have a wide range of things you can work on, would you like to help you? want to sign up on a mailing list right here?
21:52:56 <inode0> I'm not sure I want to look in the same direction we've always looked though.
21:53:28 <inode0> Some booths do have time for quite a lot of conversation with visitors, some at busy events are mayhem.
21:53:58 <threethirty> inode0: ive only been to SELF and OLF and those are mayhem
21:54:07 <inode0> either way our goal is to teach about Fedora, both the distro and the project.
21:54:32 * rbergeron nods
21:54:34 <inode0> have people walk away with "those fedora people are nice" in their heads
21:55:04 <rbergeron> but we want to find venues where we can more specifically target potential contributors.
21:55:10 <rbergeron> venues isn't the right word.
21:55:37 <rbergeron> where are the pockets of individual contributors lurking :) websites, forums, lugs, classrooms, ?
21:55:40 <inode0> that is what I'm wondering about, whether we can find new (I would call them) vehicles for sending our message
21:56:26 * rbergeron agrees
21:57:55 <rbergeron> so, i guess the bottom line is, that kind of thing is on the table. :)
21:57:56 <threethirty> we should ask each team where other people like them are... ask the art team where their other art friends congrigate and things like tahat
21:58:25 * rbergeron notes that mail to mktg mailing list might spur good discussion on this
21:58:38 <rbergeron> or... any-mailing list :)
21:58:51 <inode0> rbergeron: thanks for letting me consume so much of your time
21:59:04 <threethirty> has anyone ever thought to have a fedora art exibit?
21:59:26 <inode0> that is the sort of thinking I am looking for :)
21:59:30 <rbergeron> inode0: no problemo. thanks for bringing it up :)
22:00:07 <inode0> put another way, no, I never thought of that and it might be really cool
22:00:34 <threethirty> why not have people in the community do art projects and we can put them up in a real gallery somewhere, and some of the art could be stuff fromt he distro
22:01:02 <rbergeron> mmmm.
22:01:20 <rbergeron> innnneresting.
22:01:26 * mchua reads back
22:01:29 <threethirty> we shouldnt just limit it to the art team tho, im sure there are other artists within the project
22:01:43 <rbergeron> photography, etc.
22:01:52 <threethirty> yeah
22:01:58 <rbergeron> but would it have to be fedora-related, or just "look at all the neat stuff we create"
22:02:23 <threethirty> both
22:02:36 <rbergeron> mchua: thassa lotta reading
22:02:37 <rbergeron> :)
22:03:00 * mchua caught up
22:03:03 <rbergeron> #action rbergeron send mail to mailing list about 'what are other vehicles for promoting fedora to potential contributors'
22:03:11 <threethirty> have some art that is just art, a sculpture of a bird what have you, and some of it could be backgrounds from the distro past and present, or art concepts that didnt make it
22:03:25 <rbergeron> oy
22:04:04 <threethirty> that way we can show that we (royal we) are true artists and we do some cool stuff that makes it into fedora
22:05:27 <threethirty> and this could be some great publicity, let the dead tree media know we'll be there, let the art mags and such join in our fun
22:06:15 <mchua> So, I think this discussion thread (on art galleries) is a great example of how marketing does work - and should work - in Fedoraland.
22:06:33 <mchua> The question is "well, what would *you* like to see Fedora Marketing do?" and "ok, great, how are you going to make that happen, what can we do to help?" because... that's how stuff happens here. Someone is interested, stands up, does it in open channels. That's it.
22:07:36 <mchua> There's no one hivemind for the Marketing team just like there's no borgbrain for Fedora as a whole. We all share similar values (4 foundations, rapid advancement of FOSS/open content, etc) and we're also lots of individuals with lots of different goals and things we're working on.
22:10:16 <mchua> so inode0, I think that we could *definitely* be a lot more effective in the way we're reaching out to new contributors, for sure. Make the pathways more visible/easier to walk down, like rbergeron pointed out earlier. And I think concrete plans on how to do that, like the one threethirty has been describing, is how we get there.
22:10:21 <mchua> And I really think that's it - and if there's something missing, then we should do exactly what inode0 is doing now, and speak up, and figure out how to articulate and fix that bug. ;)
22:12:38 * threethirty is really pumped about the idea of a fedora art gallery showing
22:13:15 <threethirty> it may never happen but sounds like a lot of fun
22:13:20 * rbergeron nods
22:13:30 <wonderer> nods
22:13:35 * rbergeron has to go. mchua, i hand off the meeting reins to you to end or continue or do as you please :)
22:13:41 <rbergeron> or inode0
22:13:42 <rbergeron> ;)
22:16:36 * mchua too.
22:16:40 <rbergeron> threethirty: send a mail to mktg-list and design-team, float the idea :)
22:17:05 * threethirty adds to his todo
22:17:11 * rbergeron has friend with gallery in seattle.
22:17:16 * wonderer knows 3-4 photographers besides himself in fedora...
22:17:28 <mchua> inode0, thanks for bringing this convo up. lots of good stuff. :)
22:17:32 * mchua has to go
22:17:37 * rbergeron waves
22:17:48 <rrix> [6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~/win 30
22:18:00 <mchua> inode0: you have chair powers to #endmeeting whenever you need to, but feel free to pop more ideas here - we'll send the logs to the list later (I'll make sure that this happens.)
22:18:00 <rrix> ohey
22:18:51 * inode0 is finishing up the work work day ... are we done with the impromptu meeting part of the program now?
22:19:39 <inode0> #endmeeting