04:04:20 <rbergeron> #startmeeting
04:04:21 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jan  7 04:04:20 2010 UTC.  The chair is rbergeron. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
04:04:21 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
04:04:33 <rbergeron> allll right i remembered and everything without looking at my crib notes
04:04:41 <rbergeron> <----has had a trying day
04:04:47 <rbergeron> so mchua: brainstorming.
04:04:51 <mchua> rbergeron, thou art a ninja.
04:04:56 <mchua> yes, brainstorming!
04:05:02 <mchua> You said something about consulting?
04:05:17 <rbergeron> we've discussed before the possibilities of perhaps providing consulting services to some of the fedora open-source projects out there.
04:05:26 <rbergeron> be it things like: help us do a survey
04:05:57 <rbergeron> or maybe other things like... we're looking for publications, looking to do interviews, help us make a marketing plan or social media plan, etc.
04:06:09 <rbergeron> of course, this is wide open and dependent on available time, of course
04:06:26 <rbergeron> but I was thinking it might be an interesting thing to sprint on for an hour or two at the FAD, maybe during strategy day:
04:06:40 <rbergeron> what are the "services" we could provide to help projects out?
04:06:58 <rbergeron> discuss that and then come up with a plan of action on how to broadcast our "availability" as helpers
04:07:05 <mchua> Ooo.
04:07:10 <rbergeron> and...
04:07:20 <rbergeron> if we had someone willing to be a guinea pig, of sorts
04:07:28 <rbergeron> who would be willing to say
04:07:37 <rbergeron> when we went through those steps that you came up with during the FAD
04:07:45 <rbergeron> i found it helpful, not helpful, i'd like more of this or that
04:07:48 <mchua> PhrkOnLsh: KDE, fedora-tour?
04:08:01 <rbergeron> and make a SOP, if you will
04:08:10 <PhrkOnLsh> mchua: +1 on both
04:08:27 <rbergeron> on "what are the steps we could take each time when doing a marketing plan or ... whatever for a project"
04:08:31 <PhrkOnLsh> mchua: I'd like to look at marketing for -all- spins too, not just KDE.
04:08:39 <rbergeron> hiemanshu|afk: step one, tell me about your project.
04:08:42 <rbergeron> oh, sorry
04:08:51 * rbergeron is still on that #action fix my stupid irc client
04:08:57 <rbergeron> :)
04:09:27 <rbergeron> step 2, tell me what youer' doing now, step 3, what are the improvements you'd like to make, step 4, here's what we have to offer, step 5, disco.
04:09:32 <rbergeron> or whatever.
04:09:41 <rbergeron> <--- whatevering a lot tonight
04:09:52 * mchua nods - to make sure we get all spins eventually, we have to start with one as a test case.
04:10:01 <mchua> actually, Desktop Spin (GNOME) is that test case for a lot of things
04:10:18 <mchua> and this would be the next test case, the one that makes it way more generalizable (I think)
04:10:20 <rbergeron> brainstorm #2, less head-filling: make a database of engineers / projects who are willing to do interviews / stories
04:10:31 <rbergeron> and what types of... ahem... media they are comfortable with, when they are available, etc.
04:10:42 <mchua> Ooh, so there's something I've been thinking of...
04:10:46 <mchua> #link http://www.geekspeakr.com/
04:10:51 * PhrkOnLsh is weird.
04:10:53 * PhrkOnLsh is listening to The Emotion - The Best of My Love [Amarok2]
04:10:57 <rbergeron> such as, bob only wants to do irc or email interviews, and ww 25 is bad, but everyting else is good.
04:11:01 <mchua> Not right now, because we have more than enough infrastructure projects for the time being
04:11:23 <mchua> but geekspeakr is a speaker database - drupal-based - that's put up for... in this case, women in open source.
04:11:34 * rbergeron nods
04:11:41 <mchua> It's a one-off, very difficult to maintain because of it (I've spoken to the maintainers)
04:11:47 * rbergeron was thinking something more like a wiki page to tide us over at the bare minimum
04:11:54 <mchua> Right, a wiki page would totally work.
04:11:58 <rbergeron> or.... better yet
04:12:03 <rbergeron> when we do survey #1
04:12:10 <rbergeron> although, it takes the anonymity out
04:12:14 <rbergeron> ok, scratch that
04:12:20 <mchua> Deployable geekspeakr-clone is definitely one of my "and I would like a pony!" items
04:12:22 <rbergeron> i'm sure we could come up with a way.
04:12:33 <rbergeron> if we had a monthly marketing newsletter or something it would be a great thing to add in
04:12:42 * rbergeron notes that if we just had a lot more time there is so much to do :)
04:13:02 * mchua wishes we could tap into recruiting more Marketeers to help out
04:13:08 * rbergeron notes that she will not be signing up on technical women to speak
04:13:15 <rbergeron> :)
04:13:24 <rbergeron> yikes is all i have to say about that!
04:13:30 * mchua hasn't been really good at this - I think it is because I'm not a marketer.
04:14:04 <mchua> It's easy for me to tap engineering students, because I used to be one. But business schools are unfamiliar turf for me.
04:14:11 <rbergeron> tapping into more marketeers?
04:14:16 <rbergeron> well
04:14:23 <rbergeron> i think there is a lot of... mental gap to bridge there.
04:14:47 <rbergeron> the best students in business schools are the ones doing IT tracks, because they're exposed to all the broader business school stuff and have to take marketing courses
04:15:05 <PhrkOnLsh> hmm
04:15:07 <rbergeron> but they're not totally in the "i'm going to graduate and go work at kpmg" or whatever.
04:15:12 <rbergeron> mindset
04:15:24 <rbergeron> they're minimally familiar with open source
04:15:36 <rbergeron> and for people in the , say, finance or accounting majors
04:15:45 <rbergeron> they -still- say things like
04:15:58 <rbergeron> "you're giving away stuff? how are you going to make money?"
04:16:27 * mchua nods
04:16:29 <rbergeron> obviously it would be awesome if there was a business school class on "the open source software business model"
04:17:00 <rbergeron> but i think very specific narrow focus classes like that don't exist
04:17:02 <rbergeron> for anything
04:17:03 <rbergeron> really
04:17:18 <mchua> Oh, I someday want to have a Marketing-themed POSSE (professor bootcamp, http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE) to get b-school profs to figure out exactly that.
04:17:25 <mchua> But we aren't there yet.
04:17:30 <mchua> Maybe in summer 2011, we will be.
04:17:48 <rbergeron> realistically the best way to tap students into volunteering is for them to be using fedora first :)
04:17:51 <rbergeron> i think
04:18:09 <rbergeron> it's easier to absorb the open-source concept if you are fully immersed
04:18:16 <mchua> Also, there are pockets of individuals like Von Hippel who teach MBAs and research, say, the economics of FOSS. But... few and far between, yep.
04:18:19 <rbergeron> rather than being an oursider
04:18:19 <mchua> rbergeron: +1
04:18:38 <rbergeron> errm. outsider. but our-sider works too, i suppose :)
04:19:08 <rbergeron> i'm sure the documentation folks have the same problem
04:19:14 <rbergeron> or a similar problem
04:19:29 <rbergeron> who knows english and tools well enough, is technically capable to do things in linux,
04:19:44 <rbergeron> and can understand all those things engineers say and then turn them into magic?
04:20:29 <PhrkOnLsh> not many... :(
04:20:55 <mchua> And how do the people with those skillsets learn them?
04:21:12 <mchua> Design team, too - and QA, and...
04:21:24 <mchua> How do we clone Sparks, how do we clone Mo, etc?
04:21:49 <mchua> ...without requiring all Design folks to get an undergrad CS major before going into HCI?
04:21:55 <rbergeron> well, for me, it was just a matter of doing what i wanted
04:22:35 <rbergeron> i was pretty sure being a sysadmin was going to kill me so i somehow jumped into being a research analyst
04:22:46 <rbergeron> and then i jumped into market modeling from there
04:23:06 <rbergeron> analyst stuff appealed to me because i really liked english and writing, but, you know how it is
04:23:36 <rbergeron> writing generally isn't very ... profitable
04:24:14 <rbergeron> but writing about computers and servers worked for me since i had worked that end of the market, and i could write
04:24:49 <mchua> go-go-gadget interdisciplinaryness!
04:24:51 <rbergeron> but it's hard to put up a sign that says
04:25:04 <rbergeron> burned out on restoring backups? come be in marketing! :)
04:25:12 * mchua chuckles
04:25:31 <rbergeron> but, the nice thing about people switching things around
04:25:43 <rbergeron> they bring all sorts of new perspectives to the table
04:26:07 <mchua> Aye.
04:26:20 <rbergeron> and really, a lot of people can do marketing
04:26:28 <rbergeron> not a lot of people can code
04:26:43 <rbergeron> so it seems like we should have a much bigger pool of "potentials"
04:26:52 * rbergeron invokes lines from "the matrix"
04:27:11 <rbergeron> so, not to stray
04:27:12 <mchua> I don't think that one is innately "less hard" than the other - or maybe to put it another way, I don't see one as "second class" to the other.
04:27:38 <rbergeron> no, i don't think so either
04:27:54 <rbergeron> however, i definitely couldn't code my way out of a cereal box without a lot of training
04:28:05 <mchua> Coding and marketing are very different domains; both have rabbit holes that go down as deep as you want to chase 'em - the perception seems to be that the marketing rabbit hole is "easier" to jump into, though.
04:28:13 <rbergeron> or at least a big stack of oreilly books
04:28:53 <rbergeron> well, i think that jumping out of engineering and into marketing is probably more easy than vice versa
04:29:05 <rbergeron> maybe one would not be a great marketeer, but certainly, a functional marketeer
04:29:10 <PhrkOnLsh> I think that we may have a bigger pool, but marketing just sounds boring. people instantly think of suits and antifunstuff
04:29:12 <rbergeron> with good perspectives
04:29:30 <mchua> PhrkOnLsh: good point.
04:29:31 <rbergeron> obviously those people have never been to vegas for technical boondoggles :)
04:29:56 <mchua> PhrkOnLsh: Or conversely, marketing evokes images of glitz and hype and disconnection from reality.
04:30:21 <rbergeron> bad experiences with marketing cloud a lot of people's perceptions
04:30:28 <PhrkOnLsh> mchua: :P
04:30:41 <rbergeron> when the marketing dudes come up with the plan that engineers are supposed to execute
04:30:42 <mchua> Bad experiences with engineering too, for that matter, but... uh... *veers back on topic*
04:30:52 <mchua> ...oh boy have I been on that side of the stick.
04:30:56 <rbergeron> and the engineers sit around and say....... "what in the WORLD are they thinking of"
04:31:04 <rbergeron> "who came up with this plan! why weren't we consulted!"
04:31:11 <mchua> "this violates the laws of physics"
04:31:18 <mchua> (I've actually seen that one multiple times)
04:31:20 <rbergeron> "we could have -told- you that you can't build a time machine... helllooooo"
04:31:36 <rbergeron> precisely
04:31:51 <rbergeron> and this is where, in large companies, someone like a technical marketing engineer comes in
04:32:01 * mchua looks up the term "technical marketing engineer"
04:32:33 <rbergeron> and in my experience, is usually the guy who was an engineer, but was SO GOOD with people and explaning things that they kind of... migrated
04:32:43 <rbergeron> more or less a liason
04:32:46 * mchua looks at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_marketing and goes ...ahh, that's what that role is called
04:32:49 * rbergeron is not sure she spelled that right
04:32:54 <mchua> liason, yep
04:33:02 <rbergeron> it looks funny. anyway
04:33:11 <rbergeron> when there's enough headcount to justify it....
04:33:26 <rbergeron> it's a great person to have, because they are a sort of gateway for translation
04:33:47 <rbergeron> a slightly better version of the guy in office space who takes the plans from the one group, to the other group
04:33:50 <rbergeron> :)
04:33:58 <rbergeron> actually, a much better version
04:34:03 <rbergeron> they're usually completely awesome
04:34:22 <mchua> world-bridgers need awesometastic communication/diplomacy skillz.
04:34:40 * rbergeron steers the boat back over
04:34:46 <mchua> how do we find these folks? or help them learn? and get them to join us?
04:34:46 <rbergeron> ok so back to brainstorm :)
04:34:52 <rbergeron> i have no clue.
04:35:26 <rbergeron> it could be a matter of finding groups with problems, and they have those resources.
04:35:34 <rbergeron> such as
04:35:39 <mchua> My tactic so far has been "find the success stories, get their backstories, and figure out what parts of those learning experiences are reproducible."
04:35:46 * mchua nods, sits back to listen
04:35:49 <rbergeron> Big Giant Company wants to help out and make Fedora better for their own XYZ purposes"
04:36:03 <rbergeron> and they have these people resources
04:36:11 <rbergeron> who we suck in with our awesomeness and they never want to leave!
04:36:27 <rbergeron> finding the success stories is good. but it doesn't always bring the people.
04:36:33 <rbergeron> i think having more people is cruuuuuuucial
04:36:40 <rbergeron> and they always bring new ideas
04:36:44 <rbergeron> and their own experiences to share
04:36:57 <rbergeron> if it's something like
04:37:03 <rbergeron> hey, you did this great thing, come TEACH us about it
04:37:06 <rbergeron> ina  classroom session
04:37:12 <rbergeron> or ... hey, let's bring you to a FUDCON
04:37:26 <rbergeron> and while you're there, hopefully you'll see how awesome fun it is and we are and the other great things we're doing
04:37:32 <rbergeron> and how can we reciprocate and help -you- out?
04:38:18 * rbergeron is away for like 3 minutes, need to wash  greasy popcorn hands
04:38:22 <rbergeron> and find caffeine
04:38:32 <PhrkOnLsh> blag posts to the planet /could/ go a long way, done right
04:38:48 <mchua> Our content strategy for FI is going to be a *lot* of fun to play with, to figure thisi out.
04:38:55 <mchua> s/thisi/this
04:38:58 <PhrkOnLsh> "hey we aren't marketroids, this is some of the awesome stuff we do <photos of FAD> you can play along! joooooin usssss"
04:39:20 * mchua forsees us using wonderer's beautiful camera quite a lot in Raleigh
04:39:31 <mchua> One phrase I use a lot - "you become what you celebrate."
04:39:39 <mchua> Corollary: celebrate what you want to become.
04:39:43 * PhrkOnLsh can't find his camera :|
04:40:23 <mchua> I think one of the things we may need to start with is simply "what's Marketing, anyway?"
04:40:51 <mchua> I mean... when Max and Jack asked me to lead the team this summer, the first thing I had to do was go to Wikipedia, because I suddenly realized I did not know.
04:41:43 <mchua> The more I learned about it, the cooler it got.
04:42:25 <mchua> And marketing in open source is... it seems different from marketing within most companies.
04:42:45 * mchua hunts for current working draft of definition of open source marketing
04:43:16 <mchua> aha, ok. Here's the original, from the Chartered Institute of Marketing:
04:43:18 <mchua> Marketing is the management process responsible for identifying, anticipating and satisfying customer requirements profitably.
04:43:25 <mchua> and when patched, I ended up with:
04:43:29 <mchua> Open source marketing is the community-driven process responsible for enabling users to identify, anticipate, and satisfy their own requirements sustainably.
04:43:43 <PhrkOnLsh> hmm
04:43:46 * PhrkOnLsh parses
04:43:58 <PhrkOnLsh> sounds much cool :)
04:44:13 * rbergeron would agree with that
04:44:13 <mchua> Now, how do we turn that into action?
04:44:33 <rbergeron> strategy for us, it seems, is somewhat two-pronged
04:44:47 <rbergeron> number 1 is: how do we "market" fedora
04:45:03 <rbergeron> number 2 is: how do we market marketing to our community
04:45:10 * rbergeron is not on track but was thinking that while washing her hands
04:45:17 * mchua notes that the diff between the two definitions may also be useful in figuring out why it's "hard" to get some marketeers to grok open source, and vice versa
04:45:40 <rbergeron> well, i think the general opinion of a lot of people is that marketing is not what you just said.
04:45:47 <mchua> rbergeron: number 3 is: how do we market contributing to the fedora community
04:45:56 <rbergeron> i'd bet that probably 50% of people, if you asked what marketing does
04:45:59 <mchua> (unless that's also #1)
04:46:00 <rbergeron> would say something like...
04:46:18 <rbergeron> oh, they make super bowl commercials, and those pretty pamphlets, and they have booth babes at conferences.
04:46:34 <rbergeron> most people have no idea that there is a 'strategic' component to marketing
04:46:57 <rbergeron> "wot! there iz a plan?? omg"
04:47:11 <rbergeron> my opinion is that it is best to start small.
04:47:27 <rbergeron> look what we did for this group, we can help you too.
04:47:50 <rbergeron> helping projects out, with things like user surveys and geting feedback and using it to improve their project
04:47:54 <mchua> Ayup. Build on concrete results.
04:47:54 <rbergeron> in the end makes fedora better.
04:47:57 <PhrkOnLsh> can we have booth babes?
04:48:04 <rbergeron> and makes for great success stories, which makes other groups want to work with us.
04:48:12 * rbergeron will not be a booth babe
04:48:16 <PhrkOnLsh> lol
04:48:25 * rbergeron thinks maybe we should budget for robert downey jr. to do booth babe work
04:48:26 <mchua> PhrkOnLsh: I was thinking booth babies, actually. Small children: nobody can resist them.
04:48:32 * mchua j/k
04:48:34 <rbergeron> small puppies? they work also.
04:48:44 <PhrkOnLsh> mchua: that is actually an interesting idea... :) children of FP members
04:48:53 <PhrkOnLsh> who are actually raised on FOSS and not M$
04:49:06 <rbergeron> my daughter is totally indifferent
04:49:14 <rbergeron> it's like kids who are raised in multilingual environments.
04:49:22 * PhrkOnLsh , as a high school boy, still votes for babes.
04:49:23 <rbergeron> she can mac, she can windows, she can linux
04:49:44 <PhrkOnLsh> rbergeron: there are, for example, lcafiero and quaid's children, who will be presenting at SCaLE
04:49:53 <rbergeron> ahhhh
04:49:55 <PhrkOnLsh> together in the Women In Technology thinger
04:49:59 <PhrkOnLsh> just a small example
04:50:04 <rbergeron> ah
04:50:06 <mchua> rbergeron: she knows linux exists, and it doesn't surprise her, and that in itself is great.
04:50:17 <mchua> A great first step.
04:50:19 <rbergeron> lauryn is 7, not sure she's ready for presenting yet :)
04:50:35 <rbergeron> what amazes me is that they are still so mac-heavy in schools
04:50:39 <rbergeron> in elementary
04:50:55 <rbergeron> granted, they're mostly old school bondi blue original imacs
04:50:57 <PhrkOnLsh> rbergeron: not in my elementary school. I went back there. all windows now
04:51:00 <rbergeron> pesky budgets
04:51:10 <PhrkOnLsh> the old iMacs are all gone :(
04:51:20 <rbergeron> and i have no idea how universities are now
04:51:30 <rbergeron> engineering had a solaris lab
04:51:30 <rbergeron> or 2
04:51:37 <rbergeron> and ... all the computer labs were
04:51:40 <rbergeron> half dumb terminals
04:51:47 <rbergeron> and half windows boxes
04:51:55 <PhrkOnLsh> rbergeron: I hear ASU is pretty agnostic
04:52:00 <PhrkOnLsh> a little of everything
04:52:04 <PhrkOnLsh> at least in CS
04:52:09 <rbergeron> and i'm guessing that short of engineering, labs are probably few and far between
04:52:17 <rbergeron> since most people have laptops now
04:52:19 <rbergeron> and computers in their rooms
04:52:27 <mchua> And it probably came preinstalled with Windows.
04:52:30 <rbergeron> whereas when i was in college i was rocking out with the black and white toshiba
04:52:34 <rbergeron> in 1994
04:52:45 * PhrkOnLsh listens to van halen, brb
04:52:52 * mchua grins
04:52:54 * rbergeron might add that she actually got slackware running on it in 95 and is totally awesome
04:53:08 <rbergeron> not to date myself or anything
04:53:12 <rbergeron> i think i just did.
04:53:17 <rbergeron> yes, mostly windows
04:53:27 <rbergeron> everything is preinstalled with windows
04:53:32 <rbergeron> dell has some stuff available with ubuntu
04:53:38 <rbergeron> netbooks and some laptops
04:54:04 <rbergeron> preinstalled
04:54:10 * PhrkOnLsh was thinking about talking to the red seven boys when he heads down to tempe, about getting fedora alongside ubuntu as install options
04:54:10 <rbergeron> hp may as well
04:54:25 <rbergeron> red seven?
04:54:26 <mchua> The OLPC XO comes preinstalled with Fedora, but most of the folks who get 'em don't ever find out - their OS isn't particularly relevant to them.
04:54:41 <mchua> (The same way the exact specifics of my car engine aren't particularly relevant to me, I imagine.)
04:54:58 * rbergeron has a turbo and that's all that matters. vroom vroom
04:55:15 <rbergeron> although i have a penchant for figuring out how to do my own car repairs
04:55:17 <PhrkOnLsh> rbergeron: PHX dealer who sells machines with ubuntu preintsalled
04:55:28 <PhrkOnLsh> I think system76, dell and some other stuff.
04:55:34 <rbergeron> oh, i think i know who you're talking about... guadalupe and mcclintock
04:55:46 <PhrkOnLsh> oh, thinkpads
04:55:46 * rbergeron took a laptop or three there
04:56:02 <rbergeron> thinkpads have a lot of install options
04:56:18 <PhrkOnLsh> I <3 my thinkpad
04:56:28 * mchua is reminded of the opening section of "In The Beginning Was The Command Line" where various OSes are compared to cars
04:56:37 <rbergeron> i think one of the big problems for people wanting to do fedora preinstalled is that most purchasers expect some sort of length of life from their PC where they aren't going to have to upgrade
04:56:47 <rbergeron> for example, dell has like... the three-year warranty exntended you can get
04:57:03 <rbergeron> and if fedora isn't supported those full three years, it puts them in a hard spot as far as suppport goes.
04:57:09 <PhrkOnLsh> ugh, i need to already clean my desk again... be in and out
04:57:18 <PhrkOnLsh> rbergeron: thats true
04:57:31 * PhrkOnLsh wonders if red seven does Ubuntu LTS or latest release
04:57:56 <rbergeron> for engineers, it's not really a big deal
04:58:12 <rbergeron> the boy's sweet, sweet, SWEET AS HONEY new hp  came with...
04:58:15 <rbergeron> oh, i dunno
04:58:23 <rbergeron> i think it came with windows vista, unfortunately
04:58:42 <rbergeron> and that was basically a wipe everything minus a miniscule amount of space for windows games
04:58:50 <rbergeron> and everything else went to F11.
04:59:12 <rbergeron> after going through the hell of trying to repartition windows vista... vomit
04:59:32 <rbergeron> not to digress
04:59:44 <PhrkOnLsh> rbergeron: buy a winxp cd for gaming... it's better for gaming than vista, and easier to handle...
04:59:54 <rbergeron> but i think that's why there's not a lot of fedora in universities, or general off the shelf
04:59:57 <mchua> rbergeron: and you're OK with upgrading every so often, and know what the release cycle's like - I wonder how many folks are like that.
05:00:01 * mchua nods
05:00:03 * PhrkOnLsh has had the worst luck in getting gaming on wine
05:00:12 <rbergeron> PhrkOnLsh: that doesn't work when you're a raiding world of warcraft nerd :)
05:00:27 <mchua> rbergeron: as a second data point, I was talking to a friend of mine who's in robotics research; they run Fedora in their lab
05:00:35 <mchua> But they're on FC... 6, I think it was.
05:00:36 <PhrkOnLsh> rbergeron: WoW works in wine, i think... at least in crossover, I'm sure
05:00:39 <rbergeron> windows 7 is actually just far, far superior to vista and xp
05:00:50 <PhrkOnLsh> CalPoly SLO runs Fedora 11
05:00:50 <rbergeron> PhrkOnLsh: it's just really... laggy.
05:00:57 <PhrkOnLsh> rbergeron: ahh
05:00:59 <mchua> With all sorts of weird deltas they now have to maintain.
05:01:03 * PhrkOnLsh isn't a WoWer and hasn't tried
05:01:11 <rbergeron> and the souped up video stuff... nvidia... enough said
05:01:30 * mchua trying to avoid a WoW addiction, has never touched the stuff
05:01:40 <mchua> Continuously temped, though. Continuously.
05:01:40 <PhrkOnLsh> mchua: +1 :)
05:01:53 <PhrkOnLsh> not tempted though, just a passing curiousity :)
05:02:00 * PhrkOnLsh has no time for silly games :P
05:02:10 * mchua is easily distracted by swords.
05:02:25 <PhrkOnLsh> rbergeron: as for windows 7, there are things i like and things that annoy me to h%$^, like the new taskbar
05:02:38 <rbergeron> yeah, i avoid it
05:03:05 <rbergeron> FC6... back to what mchua said
05:03:10 <mchua> Actually, I wonder - the upgrade experience stuff the Desktop crew is working on, how much will that help with what rbergeron mentioned (with the support/release/update cycle being something that subtly makes people not use Fedora)?
05:03:12 <rbergeron> that's like... insanely long ago
05:03:16 <mchua> Yes.
05:03:24 <rbergeron> well, i don't think it makes -people- not use fedora
05:03:38 <rbergeron> i think it makes Big Marketing Machines like Dell not sell it
05:04:08 <rbergeron> and most people, if they're paying, whatever, 500, 1k, 1.5k for a laptop
05:04:26 <rbergeron> they don't want to have to screw around with upgrades unless they absolutely have to.
05:04:50 <rbergeron> although, i guess that is a lot of windows at work there, the legacy brain experience
05:04:54 <rbergeron> "every time i upgrade it is fail"
05:05:25 <rbergeron> i know a LOT of people on macs who have no problem shelling out whatever every year to upgrade to the next version, on their laptops that are far pricier than what a standard dell or hp or lenovo would be.
05:05:38 <rbergeron> maybe they're doing something right.
05:05:52 <rbergeron> i think it maybe is the "you upgrade and it -still- just works" thing
05:06:00 <rbergeron> word of mouth
05:06:02 <rbergeron> i'm not sure
05:06:15 <mchua> This is more or less the reason why we have Fedora and RHEL - RHEL's the stable, long-term-supported thing, it Works and it will Keep on Working
05:06:28 <mchua> Fedora is "WHEEE INNOVATION!"
05:06:31 <rbergeron> exactly
05:06:45 <rbergeron> so wheeee innovation is GREAT for software engineers
05:06:52 <mchua> and RHEL also has that 'E' in there, for enterprise.
05:06:59 <rbergeron> EVERYTHING works, everything builds, everyting is the latest and greatest.
05:07:03 <PhrkOnLsh> But RHEL isn't easily accessible to vendors like Dell, due to licensing costs. And CentOS hasn't really been stable enough (in the community sense) for them to latch on
05:07:30 <rbergeron> well
05:07:39 <rbergeron> i think another problem related to that, phrk, is that whole
05:07:43 <rbergeron> "throat to choke" thing
05:07:47 <rbergeron> nobody is paying for fedora
05:07:57 <rbergeron> if people are paying for rhel, well, dell and come and throttle someone.
05:07:58 <PhrkOnLsh> hm?
05:08:03 <rbergeron> you can't come and throttle community voluneers.
05:08:12 <rbergeron> wow, i can't type.
05:08:17 <PhrkOnLsh> I'm not sure I follow, rbergeron :)
05:08:19 <PhrkOnLsh> sorr
05:08:26 <PhrkOnLsh> I think I'm going to bed soonish
05:08:29 <rbergeron> dell will come and have a chit chat with someone high up, if rhel isn't working, and isn't getting the attention needed.
05:08:35 <rbergeron> eventually.
05:08:40 <PhrkOnLsh> rbergeron: ah, yeah.
05:08:43 <rbergeron> because there is money being transferred around.
05:08:53 <rbergeron> there's no "pay for fedora support" option
05:08:55 <rbergeron> therefore
05:09:00 <rbergeron> no throat to choke :)
05:09:03 <mchua> Well, there could be.
05:09:04 <PhrkOnLsh> yup yup
05:09:11 <rbergeron> mchua: explain
05:09:14 <mchua> And in some ways, there is.
05:09:44 <mchua> Example: I can get a VM on a bunch of shared hosting sites that run F11 (or something relatively recent)
05:10:06 <PhrkOnLsh> the throat is our reputation, in a sense. you can go internal and talk to rhel, or you can whine about fedora publicly
05:10:07 <rbergeron> mchua: talk, and then i have something to talk about related to something poelcat blogged about
05:10:13 * rbergeron is just reminding herself
05:10:21 <mchua> if there's a problem there that's actually a Fedora bug, I have a *little* escalation-fu to my hosting provider to get Someone Else to fix that problem for me.
05:10:23 <rbergeron> PhrkOnLsh: that is a point
05:10:39 <mchua> Also, there's nothing stopping folks from offering independent "Fedora consulting services"
05:10:42 <rbergeron> yes, that's true
05:11:01 <mchua> EOF
05:11:06 <rbergeron> but is someone like dell going to go talk to "fedora consulting services" or are they going to talk to the people writing the code
05:11:33 <mchua> if the people writing the code == "random volunteers who could hypothetically disappear at any moment," neither
05:11:39 <rbergeron> i guess a bigger question is, do we care if dell is selling PCs with F13 on them or not... or is the general public not the target market
05:11:44 <PhrkOnLsh> Alright you two, I'm going to go clean up a bit, I may be back later
05:11:49 * mchua waves to PhrkOnLsh
05:11:51 * rbergeron waves
05:11:54 <PhrkOnLsh> au revoir
05:12:06 <mchua> rbergeron: Honestly, I do not. At least not right now.
05:12:38 <mchua> Or rather, I care about contributions rather than usage.
05:12:44 * rbergeron nods
05:13:02 <mchua> (While acknowledging using Fedora is usually a prerequisite for contributing to it.)
05:13:18 <mchua> Will Dell selling PCs with F13 on them increase our contribution-fu?
05:13:22 <mchua> Probably.
05:13:23 * rbergeron is looking at poelcat's most recent blog statement :) but that's not the one im' referring to here in a moment
05:13:38 <rbergeron> well. maybe an increase in abrt bugs :)
05:13:41 <mchua> It is the highest leverage thing we could do to increase our contribution-fu? Probably not.
05:13:45 * mchua chuckles
05:13:47 <mchua> rbergeron: true, dat.
05:14:42 <rbergeron> ok, so he had this ..... http://poelcat.wordpress.com/2009/12/28/fedora-on-a-dell-xps-m1330/
05:14:51 <rbergeron> and that kind of combined with that mail you forwarded from tiemann
05:14:56 <mchua> It's one of the reasons why I've chosen to spend my time... say, teaching bootcamps to professors on how to get their classes involved in open source contribution, rather than figuring out how to talk with $large_pc_supplier.
05:14:58 <rbergeron> got me on the train of
05:15:01 * mchua reads
05:15:11 <rbergeron> why do we not have a list of ... things that "just work"
05:15:17 <rbergeron> i mean, we hope all things will just work
05:15:26 <rbergeron> but it seems like.... we have enough people, probably with enough varying laptops
05:15:39 <rbergeron> that everyone could take... a bit of time and say, i tried to install, and it just worked.
05:15:44 <rbergeron> or it didn't.
05:15:56 <rbergeron> i hate to call it a
05:16:04 <rbergeron> "fedora happiness certified PC program"
05:16:10 <rbergeron> but
05:16:23 <rbergeron> and i think it somewhat implies that maybe some things don't work
05:16:38 <PhrkOnLsh> rbergeron: I've been thinking about that.
05:16:38 <mchua> Three things immediately jump to my mind, not sure how they fit in yet, but...
05:16:41 <mchua> http://smolt.fedoraproject.org/
05:16:43 <rbergeron> but even if we had a list of say... themost popular laptops and desktops
05:16:48 <rbergeron> mostly laptops since that's where drama usually lies
05:16:51 <mchua> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkWiki
05:17:19 <rbergeron> we shoould really be making an effort to make sure those things will work.
05:17:23 <mchua> and https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/FedoraMini/Hardware
05:17:40 <mchua> (the latter is easily made during a http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Test_Days)
05:17:48 <PhrkOnLsh> are there any ways to allow anonymous submission to FI? With review of course
05:18:04 <mchua> PhrkOnLsh: Yes.
05:18:08 <rbergeron> really?
05:18:29 <mchua> Well, in the workflow in my mind (and on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Insight#Content_workflow) there is
05:18:30 <rbergeron> hopefully something is blocking the submission of my latest story on how v14gra will help?
05:18:33 <PhrkOnLsh> We could have a category "Fedora Install HOWTOS" where people write up (starting with a template) special instructions for $computer, and that gets pushed to insight
05:18:38 <PhrkOnLsh> 1) they are contributing
05:18:45 * rbergeron nods
05:18:50 <PhrkOnLsh> 2) we are growing the database, as this category would be browsable
05:19:20 <mchua> (basically, links to existing content are submitted, and screened by editors - those editors can publish anonymous content, too, or they can put the byline of the original/guest writer on - the latter will usually be the case)
05:19:28 <mchua> (think... engadget)
05:19:30 <PhrkOnLsh> If jrandom comes into #fedora saying "hey i just installed fedora, everything was simply stellar" we could do a quick "hey do you have five minutes?
05:19:35 * rbergeron notes that http://www.insidemylaptop.com/ is SO AWESOME
05:20:05 <PhrkOnLsh> mchua: by anonymous I meant not-in-fas, not nameless, but that is good :)
05:20:20 <mchua> PhrkOnLsh: I actually wonder... if... I'm thinking about fedora-tour now.
05:20:31 <PhrkOnLsh> mchua: hmm :)
05:20:36 <mchua> When you install Fedora from scratch, it prompts you at the end if you want to submit your smolt profile.
05:20:42 <mchua> If you say yes, it automagically ships it off.
05:20:54 <mchua> But what if - in Fedora-tour, or something - by the little "contribute" section, it went a bit further?
05:21:08 <mchua> And said "hey, here are some things we'd love for you to check, and see if they work - try doing X, Y, Z"
05:21:42 <mchua> and then a few minutes later, "congratulations you just submitted your first test case! now go see where it went, and who's going to pick it up from there..."
05:21:52 <rbergeron> oh, that'd be interesting.
05:21:52 <PhrkOnLsh> hmmm
05:21:55 <PhrkOnLsh> yeah
05:21:58 <rbergeron> "follow the open source white rabbit"
05:22:02 <PhrkOnLsh> i like it
05:22:03 <rbergeron> "hopefully down the rabbit hole"
05:22:04 <rbergeron> :)
05:22:23 <mchua> redpill!
05:22:39 <rbergeron> follow the white rabbit, neo
05:22:42 <mchua> (the Matrix, obviously, got the colors mixed up. Blue should be down the rabbit hole.)
05:23:04 <PhrkOnLsh> take the redpill, install the blue linux :P
05:23:26 <PhrkOnLsh> (stolen from -social's topic :) )
05:23:26 <mchua> I pull out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfus_model_of_skill_acquisition a lot - the first time you do something, most people want a step-by-step instruction
05:23:40 <mchua> because you don't have the context to know what's out there or how to improvise
05:24:11 <mchua> like... PhrkOnLsh, you brought up one bug that fedora-tour can help fix - the "oh, I can /help/ with Fedora?" awareness
05:24:34 <PhrkOnLsh> yup
05:24:53 * mchua may have to ghost out in ~10m or so, it's getting late-ish
05:24:55 <rbergeron> you mean it didn't just magically appear? :)
05:25:09 * rbergeron is committed to a bedtime of 1am or earlier tonight for the first time in weeks
05:25:18 <mchua> It took me 6 years to figure out how to contribute to an open source project.
05:25:24 <PhrkOnLsh> rbergeron: some engineers did LSD and thus was Fedora Core 1 :)
05:25:37 <mchua> To this day, I don't know how I managed to keep trying for that long.
05:25:56 <PhrkOnLsh> AGH i didn't finish my Econ assignment
05:26:13 <rbergeron> mchua: what was the blocker?
05:26:33 <mchua> rbergeron: Cultural assumptions I didn't realize I was making.
05:26:41 <mchua> Actually - I wrote it up... lemme grab the link...
05:26:58 <mchua> #link http://www.slideshare.net/mchua/the-invisible-traceback
05:27:11 <mchua> slide 20
05:27:36 <PhrkOnLsh> argh, this flash thingy is making firefox asplode
05:27:44 <mchua> (that was the original list - slides 21-22 were added by audience members afterwards)
05:27:59 <mchua> PhrkOnLsh: the slide text is in the html of the page, too - you don't have to use their slide viewer thingy.
05:28:05 <PhrkOnLsh> yeah
05:28:08 <PhrkOnLsh> found it :)
05:28:14 <rbergeron> NDA
05:28:16 <rbergeron> hah
05:28:26 <mchua> it's not a complete blocker list by any means
05:28:29 * rbergeron flashes back to last summer's work on the linux symposium papers
05:28:36 <mchua> but the thing is that these blockers are usually not seen as blockers by people who are already involved in open source.
05:28:53 <mchua> or rather, I think a lot of us forget, when we're immersed in it, that these blockers sometimes exist for other people
05:29:02 <mchua> and go "why don't they just contribute, it's so easy!" instead
05:29:07 <mchua> rbergeron: how's that?
05:29:08 <rbergeron> or we don't even know those people are there
05:29:13 <mchua> right, exactly
05:29:20 <rbergeron> mchua: not so much NDA, but
05:29:44 <rbergeron> so i work on editing and turning the papers for the symposium from... latex into something resembling something pretty and readable, in latex
05:29:49 <rbergeron> for the linux symposium
05:29:53 <rbergeron> linuxsymposium.org
05:29:55 <rbergeron> anyway
05:30:07 <mchua> It's the invisible tracebacks and the silent failures that kill you - if you don't know there's a bug, you can't fix it.
05:30:10 <rbergeron> so all the papersthat people writed
05:30:10 <mchua> anyway
05:30:14 <rbergeron> after they've been accepted
05:30:36 <rbergeron> they have to upload to their directory on fp.org in the linux symposium project directory
05:30:44 <rbergeron> therefore, they have to sign the fedora cla
05:30:46 <rbergeron> well.
05:30:53 <rbergeron> like, everyone from HP was like
05:30:57 <rbergeron> "i'm not allowed to sign"
05:31:14 <rbergeron> apparently, it has to go through 47 layers of legal hell and get signed off on by god himself
05:31:20 <rbergeron> and that's like
05:31:28 <rbergeron> how many people who are potential contributors
05:31:35 <rbergeron> are we losing just because their companies don't GET open source?
05:31:48 <rbergeron> how does HP not understand? obviously they are seriously committed to llinux
05:31:53 <rbergeron> or at least, making money from linux
05:32:23 <rbergeron> but they can't just sign up to a fedora contributor
05:32:29 <rbergeron> even if it is just to submit a paper for editing
05:32:36 <PhrkOnLsh> mkaing money from it and being a part of it are two different things, though, unfortunately :/
05:32:37 <rbergeron> wth is up with that
05:32:46 <mchua> I wish I knew.
05:33:00 <rbergeron> right, but you'd think HP would understand that one leads to the other, inherently, when you're a company of that size
05:33:07 <rbergeron> contributions scale into things they can be profitable on
05:33:17 <rbergeron> and even if they weren't
05:33:24 <rbergeron> the response was
05:33:32 <rbergeron> they don't want to be held responsible if things go wrong
05:34:33 <rbergeron> they being hp,not potential contributors
05:34:56 <mchua> Paradigm shifts are hard.
05:35:20 * rbergeron notes that she doesn't evenhold HP responsible every time she has printer fail
05:35:24 <mchua> In a sense, that's the problem that my team tackles every day.
05:35:30 <mchua> That people don't "get" open source.
05:35:43 <mchua> or The Open Source Way. (CC-BY)
05:35:48 <rbergeron> lolz
05:36:17 * mchua *so* looking forward to y'all meeting the rest of https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Community_Architecture in March
05:36:21 <PhrkOnLsh> People don't get open source, you're right
05:36:30 * PhrkOnLsh too
05:36:49 * rbergeron wonders if Fedora should just start sponsoring community gardens and farms and put up a sign:"what if your computer world worked this way, too?"
05:36:55 <PhrkOnLsh> my dad honestly thinks i'm a criminal for hanging out with you all :/
05:37:24 <mchua> PhrkOnLsh: as in, literally? or is that a figure of speech for "you spend too much time on your computer"?
05:37:43 <rbergeron> well,at least you're not out breaking into phone boxes and sniffing cables and whatnot
05:37:53 <PhrkOnLsh> mchua: like, he honestly doesn't believe that companies like RHT exist. Regardless of how I explain to him the open source business model
05:37:58 <mchua> Mine have been telling me to get a real job for ages (the F12 video stopped that, though; it looks shiny and corporate and therefore they concluded that I was doing something acceptable.)
05:38:04 <PhrkOnLsh> so he attributes it to stealing (both code and content)
05:38:24 <rbergeron> FBI hasn't come to your house yet. my mom really loved that when my brother brought them over :)
05:38:27 <PhrkOnLsh> rbergeron: he seems to believe that (so does my school's IT)
05:38:31 <PhrkOnLsh> rbergeron: LOL
05:38:40 <PhrkOnLsh> This is a good late night FAD story, save it :)
05:39:03 * PhrkOnLsh will save his :)
05:39:34 <rbergeron> PhrkOnLsh:send him to the rht finance quote andhave him read the annual report
05:39:58 <mchua> PhrkOnLsh: I wonder what your dad would say after looking at http://darkmattermatters.com/2009/07/29/sharing-your-brand-story-and-heres-ours/
05:40:01 <mchua> (both the pdf and the video)
05:40:27 * mchua points out that this is marketing, too
05:40:36 <mchua> what we're doing with our parents.
05:40:39 <PhrkOnLsh> mchua: I like Red hat's story. spevack was on a PHX radio show and explained it. I'd never heard that before.
05:40:59 * rbergeron sends praise to the fsm that her mom just accepts it
05:41:06 <rbergeron> anddad
05:41:19 <mchua> One of the things I'm excited about with FI is that it'll give us a tool to help show other people why we're so excited about Fedora, and open source, and etc.
05:41:24 <PhrkOnLsh> mom accepts it, because she works with FOSS companies at her insurance job
05:41:43 <PhrkOnLsh> she doesn't embrace it, but she accepts it. I've tried selling her on it, failed :|
05:41:47 <mchua> PhrkOnLsh: It's a good story :) we'll have campfire tales at the FAD... with video cameras around.
05:41:56 <PhrkOnLsh> woo! campfires!
05:42:00 * mchua not sure about the literal campfire quite yet, but...
05:42:10 * rbergeron hopes you're bringing the foul mouth beeper if it's reallylate :)
05:42:26 <PhrkOnLsh> mchua: I don't think most people know the red hat and fedora stories, really
05:42:26 <rbergeron> not that i am anything short of a princess, of course
05:42:32 <mchua> http://blog.melchua.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/campfire.png
05:42:43 <PhrkOnLsh> bahaha, mchua
05:42:56 <PhrkOnLsh> I'm tempted to finish that story, lol
05:43:15 <mchua> PhrkOnLsh: we gotta find ways to tell 'em more, then.
05:43:16 <mchua> the stories, I mean
05:43:23 <mchua> and differently, to reach different people.
05:43:31 <PhrkOnLsh> I'd be interested in getting my hands on one of those brand books
05:43:44 <PhrkOnLsh> mchua: yup yup
05:43:54 * rbergeron is reading "the purple cow":)
05:44:04 <PhrkOnLsh> add that to the FAD ideas list? having the engineers and RHT guys there would help tremendously
05:44:14 <mchua> PhrkOnLsh: add what bit?
05:44:18 * mchua opens FAD wikipage
05:44:25 <PhrkOnLsh> mchua: story telling
05:45:05 <mchua> Added.
05:45:41 <mchua> Argh, I have to go
05:45:54 <mchua> it's getting late and I have a few things to do before I hit the sack.
05:45:56 <rbergeron> tribes: we need you to lead us is next onmylist
05:46:04 <PhrkOnLsh> oi, nighto, mchua
05:46:09 <rbergeron> apparently, i'm onthe seth godin kick
05:46:10 <mchua> rbergeron: I'd recommend a few more
05:46:13 <rbergeron> night guys :)
05:46:13 <mchua> The Starfish and the Spider
05:46:24 <rbergeron> yeah, my book pileis pretty unhealthylooking
05:46:36 <rbergeron> i'd get a kindle but i just can't handle theparadigm shift :)
05:46:36 <mchua> (subtitle is something like: The Unstoppable Power of Leaderless Organizations)
05:46:50 <mchua> Cultivating Communities of Practice, by Etienne Wenger
05:47:00 <mchua> those are my top two
05:47:03 <mchua> right below them
05:47:10 <mchua> The Talent Code by Daniel Coyle
05:47:12 <mchua> and
05:47:24 <mchua> Why We Do What We Do by... argh, I can't remember atm
05:47:24 * rbergeron starts the Fedora marketing book club
05:47:32 <rbergeron> goto bed :)
05:47:34 <mchua> ...that may not actually be a bad idea
05:47:38 <rbergeron> typo unintentional but funny
05:47:43 <rbergeron> i know.
05:47:44 <mchua> the, uh, book club, not the sleeping
05:47:47 <rbergeron> read a book discuss :)
05:48:03 <mchua> When I was running community QA for OLPC, I did that, more or less.
05:48:24 <mchua> Because I had 0 background in QA and desperately needed to learn, and most of the volunteers were in a similar state
05:48:35 <rbergeron> ah :)
05:48:42 <mchua> so every so often I'd go "ok, I read chapter N of $foobook, and here's stuff!" and we sort of studied together
05:48:45 <mchua> it was great.
05:48:51 * rbergeron nods
05:48:56 <rbergeron> tomorrow discuss. you go sleep :)
05:49:02 <rbergeron> #endmeeting