21:23:17 <PhrkOnLsh> #startmeeting
21:23:17 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Dec  3 21:23:17 2009 UTC.  The chair is PhrkOnLsh. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
21:23:17 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
21:23:18 <PhrkOnLsh> ;)
21:23:32 <PhrkOnLsh> #meetingname some backend talk on fedora-tour
21:23:32 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'some_backend_talk_on_fedora-tour'
21:24:12 <BenjaminKreuter> mchua: i'll see what i can do about an IRC meeting, although they are both pretty busy
21:24:12 <PhrkOnLsh> mchua: so I am thinking that, instead of basing the content layout on how it is in the file system, to have an XML file that describes the content of each particular package
21:24:51 <PhrkOnLsh> mchua: But i am not exactly sure of how I should be handling it; should I put those XML files in a different location on the filesystem, or in the same directory as the root of the content files?
21:25:08 <mchua> PhrkOnLsh: back up a bit - what are the tradeoffs of each choice?
21:25:12 <mchua> i.e. why would we pick one over the other?
21:25:24 <PhrkOnLsh> mchua: well, from a technical standpoint.
21:25:33 <mchua> BenjaminKreuter: np, thought I'd put it out as an option, that's all :)
21:25:43 <PhrkOnLsh> On the one hand, you have a single directory where all content resides, and is easily manageable
21:26:16 <PhrkOnLsh> or you have two (or more in the future) directories where in one you have content descriptors, and in the other you have content
21:27:06 <PhrkOnLsh> The way I understand it, UNIX philosophy is keep data separate from applications (hence /bin and /usr and /etc and such)
21:27:16 <PhrkOnLsh> but I am not sure, from a technical standpoint which would be easier
21:27:36 * mchua nods, data and apps separate
21:28:07 <mchua> PhrkOnLsh: I won't give you an answer, but I'll try to help you think through this ;)
21:28:21 <PhrkOnLsh> right now, the top of the XML descriptor has an entry describing where in the filesystem under the /usr/share/fedora-tour/content or wherever it will be placed. But if we have the XML stored in the same place, I am wondering if such an entry would be necessary, or even helpful
21:28:23 <mchua> it's also a fine question to ask on #fedora-devel, where more coders hang out
21:28:29 <PhrkOnLsh> mchua: that works well :-)
21:28:43 <PhrkOnLsh> (making me think through it)
21:28:51 <mchua> PhrkOnLsh: okay. "technical standpoint" is pretty broad, so let's consider several cases here.
21:29:01 <mchua> PhrkOnLsh:  one is translation - which do you think would be easier to do i18n with?
21:29:47 <PhrkOnLsh> well, seperate directories, elsewise you will end up with overview-en.html overview-ru.html etc, in a single location, which is probably really messy
21:30:01 <PhrkOnLsh> having content-enUS, content-enGB, etc
21:30:29 <PhrkOnLsh> would make more sense in terms of translation
21:30:35 <mchua> Yep, and that way it's easy to just download the languages you care about as well.
21:30:54 <PhrkOnLsh> +1
21:31:09 <mchua> Ok, that's i18n. How about code maintenance? Will one of these need less code, code in fewer languages, more widely-used languages, need to be updated more often, etc?
21:31:15 * mchua notes that XML is a language
21:31:35 <mchua> iow, there are people that can do XML, people that can do python (for example) and people that can do both
21:32:00 <PhrkOnLsh> well, the XML description would probably exist either way. The XML is content writers' job, whereas the python maintenance would be code maintainers' job
21:32:16 <mchua> if you require someone to know both python and XML to help code, that's a higher barrier than being able to say "you can help with python, or XML, or both if you know both"
21:32:19 * mchua nods
21:32:24 <mchua> that's good design :)
21:32:38 <mchua> (and the reason we separate content and apps)
21:32:55 <PhrkOnLsh> The XML file basically just gives the layout of the files and a few display details
21:33:01 <PhrkOnLsh> I can pastebin a quick idea I wrote up
21:33:03 <mchua> ok - does either design make the XML and python more or less independent of each other?
21:33:06 * mchua nods
21:33:29 <PhrkOnLsh> http://pastebin.ca/1700855
21:33:32 * mchua will have to head out in ~5m, but we'll see what we can get through in that time
21:33:32 <PhrkOnLsh> hmmm
21:33:39 <PhrkOnLsh> oh okay
21:33:57 * PhrkOnLsh notes that the XML entities would need to be localized?
21:34:04 <PhrkOnLsh> Is that even possible?
21:34:11 <mchua> PhrkOnLsh: the tags? or the content in the tags?
21:34:20 <PhrkOnLsh> mchua: the tags
21:34:31 <PhrkOnLsh> Package, DisplayName, etc
21:34:35 <mchua> I would worry less about those, honestly
21:34:39 <PhrkOnLsh> okay
21:35:08 <PhrkOnLsh> would that be feasible from a code standpoint? do-able with pot files? (i don't know a whole lot about i18n tbh
21:35:36 <PhrkOnLsh> as for the python/XML independance comparing one to the other, I'm not entirely sure
21:35:49 <mchua> The way you have it now leaves it open for the tags to be i18n'd, imo, but that's not a first-release feature to worry about.
21:36:02 <PhrkOnLsh> okay
21:36:30 <mchua> PhrkOnLsh: also, does either design just make you *happier* to think about than another?
21:36:46 <PhrkOnLsh> honestly, I'm really leaning towards keeping things seperate
21:36:48 <mchua> Or... another way of thinking about it - which one is easier for you to explain to someone else?
21:36:51 * mchua nods
21:37:02 <mchua> From everything you've said to me so far, that makes sense.
21:37:12 <PhrkOnLsh> from a packaging standpoint, it's cleaner (directory ownership, etc) and looks nicer, and probably easier in code
21:37:23 <PhrkOnLsh> thanks, mchua :)
21:37:34 <mchua> You know what I'd do? I'd blog a description of the two designs (a few sentences for each) and why you're going with the one you want to go with
21:37:50 <PhrkOnLsh> hmm, that's a good idea.
21:37:54 <mchua> and you'll either get "yeah, this makes sense" comments or "have you considered X?' comments
21:38:05 <PhrkOnLsh> +1 on that
21:38:34 <mchua> I gotta jet now, but this is - every time I peek in here and see the logs and convos, it totally makes my day
21:38:36 <PhrkOnLsh> any last words, then?
21:38:43 <mchua> just that you're doing a great job and keep it up :)
21:38:44 <PhrkOnLsh> cool :)
21:39:02 <PhrkOnLsh> thanks
21:39:02 <PhrkOnLsh> #endmeeting