05:11:07 <PhrkOnLsh> #startmeeting
05:11:07 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Dec  2 05:11:07 2009 UTC.  The chair is PhrkOnLsh. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
05:11:07 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
05:11:16 <PhrkOnLsh> #meetingname Fedora-tour backend discussion
05:11:16 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-tour_backend_discussion'
05:11:36 <franciscod> #topic fedora-tour backend, *format*
05:12:15 <PhrkOnLsh> franciscod: have you put a lot of thought into the backend?
05:12:28 <franciscod> how are we going to intefrate this with the doc and mktg teams? to make it easy for them to pass us info?
05:13:18 <PhrkOnLsh> I'm kinda thinking that a WebKit widget with local HTML would be good. That way we could pull content easily from wiki, publican, etc.
05:13:44 <franciscod> PhrkOnLsh: so we'd need to parse it up?
05:13:52 <PhrkOnLsh> no, the webkit widget would do that :)
05:14:04 <PhrkOnLsh> (we could parse it ourself, but I'm not that much of a masochist)
05:14:16 <PhrkOnLsh> nor am i that good with Python or GTK right now
05:14:30 <franciscod> PhrkOnLsh: okay.. looks like you know this part ;) got me a link?
05:15:01 <PhrkOnLsh> unfortunately not, I don't know enough about the GTK API (yet) :)
05:15:25 <PhrkOnLsh> all i know is that there is a widget that embeds a webkit renderer inside of a GTK window
05:15:51 <PhrkOnLsh> http://live.gnome.org/WebKitGtk <-- we have this
05:15:56 <PhrkOnLsh> packaged in Fedora, already
05:16:05 <PhrkOnLsh> not sure if it's pulled in by default on the desktop spin, but i'd assume so
05:16:09 <franciscod> PhrkOnLsh: brb shifting to th fedora project audi , folks just landed up :D
05:16:18 <PhrkOnLsh> okay
05:17:06 <PhrkOnLsh> #link http://webkitgtk.org/reference/index.html
05:17:43 <PhrkOnLsh> #link http://code.google.com/p/pywebkitgtk/
05:18:53 <franciscod> bk
05:19:32 <PhrkOnLsh> franciscod: both of those links are webkitgtk, one is the C++ library, and the second is python bindings for it
05:19:41 <franciscod> okay..
05:19:51 <PhrkOnLsh> doing a quick search to see if they are included in Fedora, I can't imagine they'd not
05:20:34 <franciscod> PhrkOnLsh: looks good..
05:20:43 <PhrkOnLsh> both are packaged
05:20:49 <PhrkOnLsh> .whoowns pywebkitgtk
05:20:49 <zodbot> PhrkOnLsh: ivazquez
05:20:52 <franciscod> still increasing the learning curve :P
05:21:02 <PhrkOnLsh> .whoowns webkitgtk
05:21:02 <zodbot> PhrkOnLsh: pgordon
05:21:09 <PhrkOnLsh> franciscod: naw, this makes it much easier :-)
05:21:15 <PhrkOnLsh> :x
05:21:19 <PhrkOnLsh> kay, see you soon
05:21:37 <franciscod> PhrkOnLsh: still increasing the learning curve :P
05:21:44 <PhrkOnLsh> franciscod: naw, this makes it much easier :-)
05:22:03 <PhrkOnLsh> one easy API compared to us writing our own parser :)
05:22:05 * franciscod doesnt know all this (yet)..
05:22:17 <PhrkOnLsh> franciscod: neither do i, that's half the fun, no? :)
05:22:30 <franciscod> yup..it is.. :) anyway.. this seems like an okay thing tostart with..
05:22:41 <franciscod> #topic content of the tour
05:23:02 <franciscod> PhrkOnLsh: what do we *exactly* want in here?
05:23:10 <PhrkOnLsh> hmm
05:23:19 <PhrkOnLsh> I think at a minimum
05:23:20 <PhrkOnLsh> *welcome
05:23:25 <PhrkOnLsh> *what is Fedora Linux
05:23:29 <PhrkOnLsh> *getting help
05:23:33 <PhrkOnLsh> *FAQ
05:23:36 <PhrkOnLsh> *Applications
05:24:21 <franciscod> i was thinking, we need to differentiate it for a noob, and for the rest of the audiece..
05:24:23 <PhrkOnLsh> Preferably *Applications could differ, if, for example, KDE or LXDE or *DE was installed
05:25:16 <franciscod> noob side would have -> next next next next next next finish..
05:25:51 <franciscod> instead of menu etc, dont u think?
05:26:01 <PhrkOnLsh> I like that
05:26:21 <PhrkOnLsh> franciscod: how would we differentiate
05:26:23 <PhrkOnLsh> ?
05:26:45 <franciscod> the first
05:27:08 <franciscod> "slide"
05:27:26 <PhrkOnLsh> aha
05:27:36 <PhrkOnLsh> Yeah, I like that
05:27:53 <PhrkOnLsh> hiemanshu|Laptop: I assume franciscod has filled you in on fedora-tour?
05:28:28 <hiemanshu|Laptop> PhrkOnLsh, I really dont mind joining in
05:28:36 <PhrkOnLsh> hiemanshu|Laptop: awesome :-)
05:28:37 <franciscod> would have "beginners click here" sorta thng?
05:28:49 <hiemanshu|Laptop> PhrkOnLsh, he is sitting here right next to me
05:28:51 <PhrkOnLsh> franciscod: I think an "advaced users click here" would be better...
05:28:56 <PhrkOnLsh> hiemanshu|Laptop: I know :)
05:29:25 <PhrkOnLsh> I mean on the entire thinger, not just this meeting :)
05:29:27 <hiemanshu|Laptop> PhrkOnLsh, I am in mktg as well, SO i could join in
05:29:33 <PhrkOnLsh> awesome!
05:29:43 <hiemanshu|Laptop> .fasinfo hiemanshu|Laptop
05:29:44 <zodbot> hiemanshu|Laptop: User "hiemanshu|Laptop" doesn't exist
05:29:45 <hiemanshu|Laptop> err
05:29:45 <PhrkOnLsh> We're already up to 4 members without a single line of code ;)
05:29:48 <hiemanshu|Laptop> .fasinfo hiemanshu
05:29:49 <zodbot> hiemanshu|Laptop: User: hiemanshu, Name: Hiemanshu Sharma, email: hiemanshu@gmail.com, Creation: 2009-06-19, IRC Nick: hiemanshu, Timezone: Asia/Kolkata, Locale: en, Extension: 5132798, GPG key ID: 7A77244D, Status: active
05:29:53 <zodbot> hiemanshu|Laptop: Approved Groups: cla_done web fedorabugs sysadmin-web sysadmin marketing cla_fedora sysadmin-test blogadmin
05:29:57 <zodbot> hiemanshu|Laptop: Unapproved Groups: None
05:30:03 <franciscod> PhrkOnLsh: i was thinking of a flashy baby looking button for noobs..
05:30:09 <hiemanshu|Laptop> PhrkOnLsh, I am good with a bit of design and stuff and i can help you with that
05:30:18 <hiemanshu|Laptop> franciscod, no flash please
05:30:26 <PhrkOnLsh> not flash, flashy :)
05:30:34 <hiemanshu|Laptop> ah
05:31:28 <PhrkOnLsh> franciscod: I think that would be a good idea
05:31:45 <hiemanshu|Laptop> PhrkOnLsh, n00b like flashy buttons
05:31:52 <franciscod> PhrkOnLsh: needless to say, the beginner tour is a subset of the whole info that we have.. with a spoon feading interface.. makes sense?
05:32:03 <PhrkOnLsh> hiemanshu|Laptop: big GTk themed buttons, with icons on them ;)
05:32:15 <PhrkOnLsh> franciscod: yes, it does
05:32:32 <franciscod> #idea differentiate beginner and general ui
05:32:41 <PhrkOnLsh> I think there is a point where we need to draw the line between tour and documentation. We shouldn't really put *too* much in it, I think.
05:32:41 <hiemanshu|Laptop> PhrkOnLsh, thats what people like, 10 feet interface. So you dont really have problems looking around
05:33:08 <hiemanshu|Laptop> people know what RTFM means, but i dont think much people follow it
05:33:22 <franciscod> PhrkOnLsh: yeah.. im confused with the difference..
05:33:22 <hiemanshu|Laptop> so putting in Docs is shit
05:33:41 <franciscod> hiemanshu|Laptop: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora-tour
05:34:04 <franciscod> sorta why i had picked up with content..
05:34:26 <PhrkOnLsh> franciscod: what hiemanshu|Laptop said; we don't need (or want) to include the entire docs set, or any significant part of it
05:34:35 <hiemanshu|Laptop> In tour we want to show the features of stuff
05:34:48 <hiemanshu|Laptop> and not how to use em
05:35:19 <franciscod> PhrkOnLsh:  i think pinging the docs list would be good for this? theyd know how much to put in here..?
05:35:37 <hiemanshu|Laptop> NO DOCS IN THE TOUR. PERIOD!
05:35:42 <franciscod> and obviously the marketing list.. ?
05:35:57 <PhrkOnLsh> franciscod: I did, but Docs hasn't replied :)
05:36:23 <franciscod> PhrkOnLsh: okay..
05:36:30 <PhrkOnLsh> i'll harass them on IRC tomorrow or soonish
05:36:52 <franciscod> #action PhrkOnLsh franciscod make a definite content set
05:37:01 <hiemanshu|Laptop> If you have seen the Windows tour, they talk about the features and not how to get that stuff working
05:37:23 <franciscod> hiemanshu|Laptop: yeah.. but we arent basing the thing on the windows tour..
05:37:25 <PhrkOnLsh> I think it's more of a draw the line on where to stop, not that we need to define what should be in it exactly.
05:37:39 <PhrkOnLsh> franciscod: we should be taking it into consideration, though
05:37:49 <hiemanshu|Laptop> So getting in docs just making them bore
05:38:41 <franciscod> PhrkOnLsh: +!
05:38:45 <franciscod> +1
05:38:47 <franciscod> #agreed
05:39:16 <franciscod> #action franciscod PhrkOnLsh decide the exact place to draw the line ;)
05:40:10 <hiemanshu|Laptop> franciscod, not a meeting so doing this stuff wont help :P
05:40:31 <franciscod> #topic version 1.0 to have both gtk and qt?
05:40:42 <PhrkOnLsh> hmmm
05:40:47 <franciscod> PhrkOnLsh: ^ what say?
05:41:06 <PhrkOnLsh> thinking...
05:42:04 <PhrkOnLsh> franciscod: we need to be sure we aren't spreading ourselves too thin. Neither of us have experience in either PyGTK or PyQt, and unless we have others on-board willing to help (hiemanshu and tatica on board is awesome) we may end up getting in over our heads..
05:47:38 <quaid> hmm
05:47:41 <quaid> SVG?
05:47:43 <hiemanshu|Laptop> quaid, yes
05:47:53 <franciscod> svg would work..
05:47:54 <PhrkOnLsh> quaid: we had discussed doing that, but I think that mchua_afk was against such an idea
05:48:30 <hiemanshu|Laptop> yeah SVG should work too actually
05:48:42 * quaid thinks that sqlite might even be already present, doesn't Firefox use it?
05:49:27 <quaid> ... and with that, I have immediately left my depth -- no skills to implement, just know enough visualize it :D
05:49:34 <franciscod> sqlite is present by default IIRC
05:49:37 <PhrkOnLsh> yes
05:50:14 <rbergeron> oh look! late-night party goin on
05:50:16 <rbergeron> :)
05:50:20 <quaid> :)
05:50:23 <quaid> keeping you company
05:50:31 <PhrkOnLsh> rbergeron: care to join :)
05:51:08 * rbergeron is trying to catch up
05:51:29 <franciscod> quaid: im not sure how we'd use sqlite though, u mean make a databse before hand? and use that?
05:51:42 <franciscod> is that your vision i mean ;) ?
05:51:48 <hiemanshu|Laptop> rbergeron, its 11:20 here :)
05:52:08 <rbergeron> wow, what time zone are you in :)
05:52:08 <hiemanshu|Laptop> Well why do we need a DB?
05:52:15 <quaid> hmm, I was thinking of AJAX, but I'm not sure we could
05:52:15 <hiemanshu|Laptop> rbergeron, +5.30
05:52:22 <hiemanshu|Laptop> rbergeron, we are at FOSS.in
05:52:25 <quaid> work that without also havning an HTTP server
05:52:26 <rbergeron> ahhhh
05:52:36 <hiemanshu|Laptop> quaid, we could have AJAX inside a browser actually
05:52:46 <hiemanshu|Laptop> and you dont need a webserver to display html pages
05:52:49 <franciscod> using sqlite would be, parsing info from the doc team, putting it into a db and then using it again for the final thing..
05:52:54 <quaid> right
05:53:02 <franciscod> s/doc/marketing and doc/
05:53:03 <hiemanshu|Laptop> rbergeron, kital is speaking on Fedora Security Spin right now
05:53:29 <rbergeron> noted
05:53:47 * rbergeron is not so technical since taking a permanent leave of absence from sysadminhood 10 years ago
05:53:48 <quaid> yay for spin talks
05:53:50 <rbergeron> :)
05:54:00 <quaid> rbergeron: like riding a bike ...
05:54:15 <rbergeron> more like riding a unicycle. do i _really_ want to get back on :)
05:54:17 <quaid> * hurts when you fall, but more now that you are bigger/taller.
05:54:17 <PhrkOnLsh> quaid: I think that static HTML or XML pages would be easier than sqlite in this instance
05:54:17 <quaid> etc.
05:54:42 <quaid> PhrkOnLsh: yeah; I was thinking that AJAX needed a server side to be useful, but I guess that is not correct :)
05:54:58 <PhrkOnLsh> AJAX would. plain javascript wouldn't.
05:55:23 <franciscod> PhrkOnLsh: im still thinking of a separate app..
05:55:26 <PhrkOnLsh> AJAX == update webpages without refreshing, by only posting back certain parts of the page to the server (using JS)
05:55:29 <PhrkOnLsh> franciscod: I am too
05:55:33 <rbergeron> what's the end goal here if i can ask :)
05:56:14 <franciscod> rbergeron: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora-tour
05:56:15 <PhrkOnLsh> rbergeron: give users (new to linux, new to fedora, and more veteran users) a quick portal to exploring Fedora Linux and the Fedora Project
05:56:19 <PhrkOnLsh> basically
05:56:19 <hiemanshu|Laptop> PhrkOnLsh, AJAX basically is JS calls
05:56:30 <PhrkOnLsh> hiemanshu|Laptop: AJAZ -is- JS calls, but to a server backend
05:56:36 <franciscod> yeah.. AJAX discussion later please folks..
05:56:36 <PhrkOnLsh> AJAX*
05:56:42 <PhrkOnLsh> franciscod: +1
05:56:44 <hiemanshu|Laptop> franciscod, lol
05:56:53 <PhrkOnLsh> We should probably wrap this up, though, dad's making me go to bed
05:57:03 <quaid> agreed that a browser-based static set of pages is less useful -- e.g., browser is limited with what it can write to the file system
05:57:09 <PhrkOnLsh> I think I'll do some designing under the sheets though, and have some ideas tomorrow
05:57:24 <franciscod> PhrkOnLsh: +1 okay..
05:57:32 <franciscod> im beginning with a pygtk tut though..
05:57:44 <PhrkOnLsh> you guys are free to continue, I just have to go :)
05:57:44 <franciscod> start looking a bit?
05:57:52 <PhrkOnLsh> franciscod: good idea, let me grab one
05:58:26 <franciscod> PhrkOnLsh: http://www.pygtk.org/dist/pygtk2-tut.pdf
05:58:37 <PhrkOnLsh> thanks!
05:59:13 <franciscod> PhrkOnLsh: does end meeting make sense ? will it work? since zodbot_ ran out on us :|
05:59:26 <PhrkOnLsh> franciscod: not really, huh? :/
05:59:40 <PhrkOnLsh> I have scrollback, let me paste it to my fp.o tomorrow
05:59:55 <franciscod> PhrkOnLsh: i have a log on , ill put it up.. no worries..
05:59:59 <PhrkOnLsh> okay, awesome
06:00:07 <franciscod> do an endmeeting for the heck of it..
06:00:15 <rbergeron> hopefully someone can end it when zodbot gets back from vacay or else there will be one massive log somewhere ventually :)
06:00:18 <franciscod> wouldnt want zodbot logging everything..
06:00:46 <PhrkOnLsh> #endmeeting