16:01:47 <adamw> #startmeeting Fedora QA meeting
16:01:47 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Dec 21 16:01:47 2015 UTC.  The chair is adamw. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:01:47 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:01:47 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_qa_meeting'
16:01:50 <adamw> #meetingname fedora-qa
16:01:50 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-qa'
16:01:55 <adamw> #topic Roll call
16:02:08 <adamw> ahoyhoy folks, who's around for (probably) the last qa meeting of the year?
16:02:08 * tflink is present
16:02:32 * satellit listening
16:04:08 <adamw> anyone else?
16:04:16 * adamw wonders if the entire brno office is lying in a gutter somewhere
16:05:13 * satellit looked at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Fedora_24_Rawhide_20151219_Installation#Default_boot_and_install
16:05:56 <tflink> adamw: all the folks but one from our team are out until the 4th, I think
16:06:11 * roshi is here
16:06:20 <adamw> damnit, they're all fired
16:06:28 <adamw> we don't believe in holidays, only bugs
16:06:37 <adamw> .fire everyone
16:06:37 <zodbot> adamw fires everyone
16:06:54 <tflink> and adamw is now left to do the entirety of fedora on his own :)
16:07:07 <adamw> no, i fired myself too ;)
16:07:16 <tflink> clever :)
16:07:25 <roshi> lol
16:07:56 <adamw> alrighty then, guess we can plow through
16:08:00 <adamw> #topic Previous meeting follow-up
16:08:06 <adamw> er, scuse me while i make this up on the fly...
16:08:34 <roshi> you have been scused
16:09:01 <adamw> #info "adamw to come up with draft wiki changes and blockerbugs patch for new blocker handling, using Accepted0Day and AcceptedPreviousRelease as the new magic words" - I did that, the blockerbugs patch is still being reviewed
16:09:10 <adamw> i think that's all we had by way of action items, anything else to follow up on?
16:10:27 * roshi has nothing
16:10:39 <adamw> okey dokey then
16:10:42 * satellit nothing here
16:10:52 <adamw> #topic Fedora 24 status + planning
16:11:09 <adamw> so i just threw this in as a kind of catch-all sync up topic
16:12:05 <adamw> the Change process is still open, so F24 planning itself isn't complete yet, but we do have some stuff we know about coming down the pipe, i guess
16:12:37 <adamw> seems that Cloud WG is intent on using networkd as the default network management thing in cloud images for 24
16:13:08 * roshi grumbles
16:13:26 <roshi> I'm still looking, but has a testing plan come out of that yet?
16:13:34 <tflink> nope
16:13:35 <roshi> complete with testcases and whatnot?
16:13:43 <tflink> not that I saw
16:13:44 <adamw> aside from the 'oh there's this one guy who uses it and it works fine, everything's gonna be fine' no.
16:13:47 <roshi> that's what I thought
16:14:18 <adamw> the thing is, i suspect that even if we do come up with a test plan we might find it all works, because i'm guessing the basic stuff in networkd that you could test by just running a few instances and poking around will be fine
16:14:27 <adamw> if anything i'm guessing there'll be subtler bugs of the kind you really only hit in regular use
16:14:36 <adamw> but trying to get out in front of it would be nice of course...
16:14:51 * roshi wishes we'd just go ahead and get Wayland merged with systemd and we can be done testing everything since it'll all be systemd
16:14:58 <adamw> unfortunately i'm not sure me or tflink can take another big action item atm :/
16:15:04 <roshi> yeah
16:15:22 <adamw> the systemd-wayland industrial complex
16:15:57 <roshi> then it'll be World Flame War N for which DE gets subsumed
16:16:10 * satellit be nice to have opt out from wayland in installer
16:16:11 <roshi> </half-jokings>
16:16:22 <adamw> satellit: the wayland stuff still seems pretty up in the air at this point
16:16:31 <satellit> k
16:16:35 <adamw> i suspect we'll get a clearer picture of how it's going to end up some time around beta
16:16:51 <adamw> there is of course wayland too, yeah. lots of big ticket stuff coming.
16:16:54 <roshi> sounds about right
16:17:00 <adamw> i suppose we can at least run test days for all this stuff
16:17:09 <adamw> okay, let's see:
16:17:25 <adamw> #info cloud WG seems to be planning to use networkd as default for all/some cloud images for F24
16:17:32 <tflink> all the more reason not to rely on the official cloud images for taskotron's dispoable clients, i guess
16:18:01 <roshi> true
16:18:09 <adamw> #info Wayland situation is still fluid but we need to at least work on the basis it may become default for F24
16:19:19 <adamw> another thing: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Pungi_Refactor
16:19:35 <adamw> i didn't realize dennis had actually filed a change for it, but yeah, there's big change coming on the compose front
16:20:01 <adamw> they're working to switch nightly composes over to the new pungi, which would give us a rather different output (i.e. we'd get product-ized images and more of 'em, more like a TC)
16:20:04 <tflink> yeah, that's gonna be big but it'll be helpful
16:20:16 <satellit> will livecd-tools remain for remixes?
16:20:25 <tflink> i think so
16:20:40 <tflink> i don't think the new pungi can do lives
16:20:47 <satellit> k
16:20:48 <adamw> satellit: i think livemedia-creator taking over from livecd-tools is kind of a separate thing from this
16:20:48 <adamw> right
16:21:04 <adamw> it's still on the agenda, but last I heard, dgilmore was rather unhappy with current lmc (still)
16:21:34 <adamw> #info major changes coming to the compose process (new pungi): https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Pungi_Refactor
16:21:37 <dgilmore> adamw: we have some meetings setup for the new year
16:21:41 <adamw> cool
16:22:03 <dgilmore> satellit: lived-creator will be removed
16:22:12 <dgilmore> livecd-creator
16:22:28 <dgilmore> satellit: remixes will need to use livemedia-creator
16:22:32 <adamw> satellit makes a point, though - whenever we actually do switch to lmc, there should probably be some reasonable amount of communication for people who currently use litd for doing remixes etc.
16:22:49 <adamw> and it'd be good to ensure we're covering their needs before ditching livecd-tools...
16:22:50 <dgilmore> the kikstarts shipped by fedora will not work with livecd-creator
16:22:59 <tflink> adamw: litd? don't you mean livecd-creator?
16:23:01 <satellit> ugh... hope lmc instructions will be simple to use
16:23:03 <adamw> tflink: i do, sorry
16:23:10 <dgilmore> adamw: that is a big part of why we made a change for it
16:23:19 <dgilmore> to ensure that the communication happens
16:23:23 <adamw> dgilmore: there's a change for lmc too? or is it considered part of the 'pungi refactor'?
16:23:36 <dgilmore> adamw: there is a seperate one for lmc
16:23:54 <dgilmore> adamw: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/LivemediaCreator
16:24:04 <adamw> cool, thanks
16:24:13 <adamw> so that looks like it's under control, great.
16:24:41 <adamw> #info livecd-creator replacement with live media creator is also in progress: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/LivemediaCreator
16:25:22 <adamw> there's also https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Layered_Docker_Image_Build_Service , which gives us yet more deliverables, i guess
16:25:50 <tflink> for some reason, i didn't think that was coming into full swing until F25-ish
16:25:59 <tflink> that -> layered docker images
16:26:16 <dgilmore> tflink: getting the tooling up and working
16:26:25 <roshi> ^^ that
16:26:57 <dgilmore> tflink: right now the only deliverable I know of will be the cockpit layered image that someone did outside of fedora and claims as official because atomic needs it
16:27:09 <adamw> tflink: well, it got an email for F24..
16:27:34 <tflink> yeah, i'm thinking of the automation discussion, i guess
16:27:41 <adamw> it would be nice if the change actually specified the expected deliverable(s) and some kind of plan/responsibility assignment for testing them
16:27:47 <adamw> i guess i'll take an action item to follow up on that
16:27:59 <dgilmore> adamw: this change really is just about the tooling
16:28:13 <dgilmore> and getting a heads up out there that we can do things
16:28:40 <adamw> dgilmore: well, i'm just going by the book, i.e. what the page says: "#action adamw to raise deliverables/testing concerns re Layered Docker Image change"
16:28:43 <adamw> grrr.
16:28:44 <adamw> "This change will deploy the build service to support building and delivering a set of layered Docker images, and will enable Fedora contributors to create and maintain Dockerfiles from which those images will be generated."
16:28:58 <adamw> so i at least would like the Change itself to say what you're saying here :)
16:29:46 <dgilmore> adamw: both are true, we are not anticipating any layered images other than cockpit in f24 timeframe
16:29:58 <adamw> dgilmore: i just want that last part to actually be quantified
16:30:06 <adamw> right now it's entirely open ended, so far as what's officially written down goes
16:30:29 <adamw> alrighty, anyone got any more scary change to frighten us with?
16:31:24 <adamw> okay, that took longer than expected, so let's roll on...
16:31:36 <adamw> #topic Non-media blocker status update
16:31:55 <adamw> so I already mentioned this briefly: the wiki changes are in place which means that from now on, we can accept blockers in the new categories
16:32:36 <adamw> stats-bugzilla should be able to handle them already, and the patch for blockerbugs is in review; does anyone know of anything else we'd need to do? I can't think of anything much
16:32:40 <dgilmore> adamw: I can come up with scary things if you want :D
16:32:48 <adamw> maybe I should write an email to devel@ explaining the change
16:32:51 * adamw sits on dgilmore
16:33:20 <dgilmore> adamw: what is the wiki page>?
16:34:01 <adamw> dgilmore: it falls into the blocker bug process page - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:SOP_blocker_bug_process - and the blocker review meeting page - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:SOP_Blocker_Bug_Meeting
16:34:15 <adamw> look at the recent changes or just search for 'Accepted0Day' and 'AcceptedPreviousRelease'
16:35:03 <dgilmore> adamw: okay
16:35:26 <adamw> alrighty then, sounds like that one's more or less done, we'll see how it works out once we actually need to use the new tags
16:35:45 <adamw> #info wiki changes are done, stats-bugzilla change is done, blockerbugs change is under review, nothing else is known to be needed
16:35:53 <adamw> #topic Two release upgrades
16:36:11 <adamw> so i was hoping kparal would be around, but he's not; i guess we're too short-handed to take a vote on the criterion today
16:36:49 <adamw> not sure if there's anything else we can do here - anyone have any notes on this? (the proposal to have the release criteria require upgrades from the last two stable releases work, rather than only the most recent one)
16:37:32 <tflink> not much from me, it sounds like a good plan
16:37:49 <adamw> yeah, i'm +1 too, but i guess we'll knock it off in the new year
16:37:57 <adamw> alrighty then
16:38:00 <adamw> #topic Open floor
16:38:11 <adamw> program note: i plan to hit up the proposed blocker(s) after this
16:38:31 <adamw> so, anyone got anything else?
16:38:37 <adamw> bottles of whisky for me? :)
16:39:21 * satellit have to go out....
16:39:36 <adamw> alrighty, thanks for coming satellit
16:39:39 <adamw> happy holidays :)
16:39:44 <adamw> and thanks for testing as always
16:39:54 <satellit> : )
16:40:31 * roshi has nothing
16:42:13 <adamw> alrighty, let's do some mini blocker review
16:42:21 <roshi> whee!
16:42:26 <adamw> #topic Mini Blocker Review
16:42:40 <adamw> #info we're going to do some blocker review, yadda yadda https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:SOP_Blocker_Bug_Meeting , I think everyone here knows the drill
16:43:07 <adamw> #topic (1281675) [gnome-shell] gnome-terminal fails to start up: GDBus.Error:org.freedeskt op.DBus.Error.Spawn.ChildExited
16:43:07 <adamw> #link https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1281675
16:43:07 <adamw> #info Proposed Blocker, gnome-shell, ASSIGNED
16:43:17 <adamw> so more and more people seem to be hitting this now
16:43:29 <adamw> the GNOME folks don't seem to have a clear idea of what's going on yet
16:43:40 <adamw> it's an odd bug, but i'm +1 given that it doesn't seem to be some really rare thing
16:45:00 <roshi> +1
16:45:24 <adamw> tflink?
16:45:27 <adamw> dgilmore?
16:46:52 <tflink> am I understanding this right? in order to hit it, you have to logout, login with X, logout and log back in with wayland?
16:47:06 <tflink> or is that just the one reproducer
16:48:01 <adamw> no
16:48:01 <adamw> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1281675#c8
16:48:12 <adamw> also https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1281675#c14
16:48:24 <tflink> in that case, +1
16:48:28 <adamw> and cmurf's email from yesterday
16:49:41 <adamw> proposed #agreed 1281675 - AcceptedBlocker (Alpha) - seems to violate https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_24_Alpha_Release_Criteria#Required_applications , at least for several reporters
16:49:46 <adamw> hmm
16:50:08 <adamw> proposed #agreed 1281675 - AcceptedBlocker (Alpha) - seems to violate "It must be possible to run the default web browser and a terminal application from all release-blocking desktop environments", for several reporters
16:50:12 <adamw> i suck at pasting today.
16:50:16 <tflink> ack
16:51:36 <adamw> roshi, dgilmore?
16:52:27 <roshi> ack
16:52:34 <adamw> #agreed 1281675 - AcceptedBlocker (Alpha) - seems to violate "It must be possible to run the default web browser and a terminal application from all release-blocking desktop environments", for several reporters
16:52:53 <adamw> ok, that looks like it - no proposed for beta or final
16:53:01 <roshi> whee!
16:53:03 <adamw> don't think there's anything we can say about the one acceptedblocker for alpha
16:53:10 <adamw> #topic Son of open floor
16:53:22 <adamw> last call for open floor :)
16:54:07 * roshi has nothing
16:54:18 <tflink> me neither
16:54:35 <adamw> allllrighty folks
16:54:44 <adamw> everyone enjoy the shutdown
16:55:01 <adamw> and if i disappear in a couple of hours i am definitely working on important things and absolutely *not* going to see star wars
16:55:19 * adamw sets fuse
16:56:42 <tflink> adamw: sounds better than why I'll be disappearing shortly
16:57:00 <adamw> why's that?
16:57:03 <tflink> dentist
16:57:29 <adamw> aw, the dentist's always fun
16:57:37 <adamw> you get to watch muted hgtv on a ceiling tv! what's not fun about that
16:58:01 <roshi> the drilling
16:58:03 <tflink> i don't think the tv has ever been on when I went to the dentist
16:58:08 <roshi> and the muffled screams of your co-captors
16:58:15 <adamw> huh, you need to get yourself a dentist with a ceiling tv, man
16:58:19 <tflink> actually, i think the lidocane is one of the worst parts
16:58:35 <roshi> "do you have a ceiling tv?" "No." *walks out*
16:58:47 <tflink> they have tv, they've just always been off
16:59:54 <adamw> wow, that's even worse
17:00:07 <adamw> it's like 'look, see? we could be distracting you but instead we will make you focus on your pain'
17:00:46 <tflink> there's always attempted conversation
17:00:59 <adamw> mmbl mmbl mmbl ARGH
17:01:01 <tflink> "how has your day been?" "mmfh mfmmm"
17:01:12 <tflink> :)
17:01:16 <adamw> alrighty, thanks again everyone, see you and your hangovers in the new year
17:01:19 <adamw> #endmeeting