19:05:06 <stickster> #startmeeting Flock next-gen software
19:05:06 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Oct  8 19:05:06 2015 UTC.  The chair is stickster. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:05:06 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
19:05:11 <stickster> #meetingname flocksoftware
19:05:11 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'flocksoftware'
19:05:15 <stickster> #topic Roll call
19:05:58 <mizmo> .hello duffy
19:05:59 <zodbot> mizmo: duffy 'Máirín Duffy' <fedora@linuxgrrl.com>
19:06:31 <puiterwijk> .hello puiterwijk
19:06:32 <zodbot> puiterwijk: puiterwijk 'Patrick "マルタインアンドレアス" Uiterwijk' <puiterwijk@redhat.com>
19:07:04 <mizmo> marutainandoreazu?
19:07:18 <mizmo> martian android?
19:07:20 <abhiii5459_> Thank you nirik , tflink and everyone else!
19:07:22 <puiterwijk> Martijn Andreas. My second and thirdd names
19:07:25 <mizmo> ahhhh
19:07:28 <mizmo> nice :)
19:07:35 <mizmo> katakana hard :)
19:07:37 * stickster gives another minute for people to roll in
19:07:49 <puiterwijk> Yeah, I use it to test our software for UTF8 compat :)
19:08:01 <stickster> #chair mizmo puiterwijk
19:08:01 <zodbot> Current chairs: mizmo puiterwijk stickster
19:08:11 <puiterwijk> Oh, I've just become chair? Interresting
19:09:10 <stickster> puiterwijk: EVERYONE GETS A CHAIR! :-)
19:09:23 <puiterwijk> Hah. That's a nice one :-)
19:09:25 <puiterwijk> stickster++
19:09:36 <stickster> OK, let's get started, I guess... I was thinking rsuehle or jwb or someone would be here from the core planners, but it's not strictly necessary
19:09:36 <mizmo> oprah meeting!
19:09:44 <stickster> ^ that!
19:09:48 <mizmo> i think suehle said she'd be on the plane back to dublin
19:09:48 <jwb> i am here
19:09:53 <stickster> Oh right! I forgot
19:09:54 <stickster> #chair jwb
19:09:54 <zodbot> Current chairs: jwb mizmo puiterwijk stickster
19:10:12 <stickster> #topic Current status of software checking
19:10:34 <mizmo> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Flock_2016_software#Tool_Comparisons
19:10:45 <stickster> #info OpenConferenceWare -- still not really tested; it's a Rails engine and Paul has no idea how to deploy, nor is it clear from docs
19:11:22 <puiterwijk> Ah, I see my tool didn't make the comparison
19:11:28 <stickster> Just wanted to get that out of the way first -- I'm seeking anyone who knows how to make a simple Rails app that can call the engine so we can test. Sorry I'm not the right guy for this :-(
19:11:52 <stickster> puiterwijk: Which tool is that?
19:12:08 <puiterwijk> stickster: the GUADEC regcfp tool I linked you to a while ago
19:12:31 <puiterwijk> (which was used for GUADEC 2015, and is currently being improved for GNOME.asia and upcoming GUADEC's)
19:12:33 <stickster> Sorry I missed something! We pulled in quite a few, and I must have forgotten to pull that one in
19:12:43 <mizmo> puiterwijk, i think that just does the reg right?
19:12:49 <puiterwijk> mizmo: nope, Reg + CFP
19:12:54 <mizmo> ahh
19:12:56 <puiterwijk> (CFP being Call For Papers)
19:12:56 <stickster> puiterwijk: We have time to look at it -- put the link here and I'll set to installing it right away
19:13:19 <mizmo> puiterwijk, yeh i confused with another one
19:13:25 <puiterwijk> stickster: https://git.gnome.org/browse/guadec-web-regcfp/
19:13:39 <puiterwijk> The short install guide: git clone, cd, "npm install", ./bin/www
19:13:53 <stickster> #action stickster install puiterwijk 'guadec-web-regcfp' tool and start testing wheel rolling
19:14:03 <stickster> OK, will do, and sorry again Patrick -- my oversight
19:14:22 <puiterwijk> No problem. I was just curious whether it was conciously dropped :)
19:14:30 <stickster> Not at all
19:14:42 <puiterwijk> (to be honest, that was the entire reason I joined this meeting :) )
19:14:55 * stickster hopeful it might be the sweet spot we've been looking for :-)
19:15:09 <mizmo> yeh i think the overall status is -
19:15:24 <stickster> #info mizmo and stickster did a bunch of zookeepr investigation/testing
19:15:25 <mizmo> OSEM: pretty, not all the features we wanted
19:15:26 <puiterwijk> If it isn't, I can make it. As said, I am improving it anyway for other events :-)
19:15:39 <stickster> puiterwijk++
19:15:40 <zodbot> stickster: Karma for puiterwijk changed to 28 (for the f22 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
19:15:42 <mizmo> Zookeepr: lots of features (not all), can be frustrating (eg manual db edits for copresenter listings)
19:16:21 <jwb> copresenter isn't really an issue tbh
19:16:47 <stickster> nah, it was just one of quite a few things we ran into that were frustrating
19:17:18 <mizmo> yeh just an example of a db edit you had to make, eg it has the 'feature' but, is that really having the feature
19:17:45 <mizmo> like, to add sponsors, you have to manually write JSON and input it into spreadsheet like db dump page
19:17:57 <stickster> yeh mizmo... also like the thing where zookeepr has the ability to solicit and accept/decline funding help, but it doesn't link it in anyway with paper acceptance or cost outcomes
19:18:42 <mizmo> yeh there seems to be some gremlin in it.... if you accept someone's funding request, they don't get an email or notification about it and the next steps are unclear (like how do you submit your plane ticket receipt?)
19:19:12 <stickster> Also, it doesn't show us that someone needs funding to come when we're considering a paper
19:19:27 <mizmo> it tracks people's home address / region, but i think there was only one report where you could actually get a list of people that included a region column
19:19:39 <jwb> stickster, that's never been considered before anyway
19:19:44 <stickster> so the tracking is like... +0.5, it has a capability, but there's no human workflow help
19:20:01 <jwb> votes for talks are votes for talks.  people aren't voting with the knowledge of who the speaker even is
19:20:13 <mizmo> the session voting thing seems pretty sophisticated but it doesn't allow for blind voting
19:20:18 <stickster> jwb: But as an organizer, you would certainly like to know what the budget is based on the paper acceptance
19:20:39 <stickster> Like, OK, here are the top 45 accepted... and here's what that means in terms of cost
19:21:25 <jwb> sure.  we've tended to assume most people would need funding.  i'm just saying that we don't have it today, so if zookeeper is amazing otherwise, then it isn't a dealbreaker
19:21:37 <stickster> mizmo++ ... some of the best bits are the CFP review parts. And it has a great registration system (once we found and fixed the bug that wouldn't let anyone register)
19:21:37 <zodbot> stickster: Karma for duffy changed to 14 (for the f22 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
19:21:41 <jwb> we're looking for better, not perfect
19:21:56 <stickster> wow, I'm just handing out cookies today! You get a cookie, and you get a cookie...
19:21:59 <stickster> EVERYONE GETS A COOKIE
19:22:01 <stickster> jwb++
19:22:11 <stickster> OK, no cookie for jwb then.
19:22:14 <mizmo> lol
19:22:19 <jwb> i guess you've given me one already
19:22:57 <stickster> jwb: Sure -- better is good. I think zookeepr is substantially better in terms of what it gets us. But it's a huge pain on the back end. Really confusing.
19:22:59 <mizmo> another big positive on zookeeper is it lets you create arbitrary pages, i dont think OSEM allowed that (not that i could figure out)
19:23:10 <mizmo> yeh the UI is.... o_O and not documented
19:23:36 <mizmo> theres a tracks system for talks, which is great, but it's not linked to from the panel so we found it by going through the codebase and guessing the url
19:23:43 <mizmo> that kind of stuff
19:23:50 <mizmo> maybe these are easy fixes tho
19:24:24 <jwb> code is python, yes?
19:24:25 <stickster> mizmo: You're right -- OSEM had a bunch of set pages which cover what you'd expect (CFP, registration, lodging, venue, etc.) but no custom pages capability
19:24:43 <stickster> jwb: OSEM is Ruby :-\  zookeepr is Python :-) That's how I was able to figure out and fix the reg bug
19:24:53 <stickster> It uses Mako templates and Pylons
19:25:16 <jwb> i don't know what that means, but i know we have a python army and i'm sure someone in it does
19:25:18 <stickster> I still want to check out puiterwijk app... which I bet is in Python :-)
19:25:34 <stickster> jwb: Don't worry, it barely means more to me. ;-) But yes.
19:26:08 <puiterwijk> stickster: hah, nope. For some reason, when I started this, I had just learned about node and was looking for a project to start learning that... :-)
19:26:31 <stickster> doh!
19:26:50 <stickster> puiterwijk: I just learned about 'learnyounode' and was going to try it tomorrow :-)
19:27:06 <mizmo> i just want to give zookeepr a hug. it needs some ux help!
19:27:08 <puiterwijk> stickster: let me see if I have a project for you :)
19:27:12 <stickster> truly
19:27:29 <stickster> puiterwijk: I'm full up on projects, I have to send jwb a patch
19:27:39 <mizmo> oh zookeepr needs some coding work to get openid and/or fas to work
19:27:47 <mizmo> it has persona but not openid
19:27:51 <puiterwijk> stickster: but in honesty, I didn't mind node a lot, since I've been doing LOTS of javascript for Cockpit :-)
19:28:08 <puiterwijk> mizmo: note that we also have Persona in Fedora. So that might work
19:28:11 <stickster> #info zookeepr immediate need #1: openid and/or FAS integration (but is using AuthKit in case that helps)
19:28:21 <stickster> #undo
19:28:21 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: INFO by stickster at 19:28:11 : zookeepr immediate need #1: openid and/or FAS integration (but is using AuthKit in case that helps)
19:28:32 <stickster> #info zookeepr need #1: (MAYBE?) openid and/or FAS integration (but is using AuthKit in case that helps)
19:28:37 <mizmo> puiterwijk, you can use FAS credentials in persona and it works?
19:28:40 <puiterwijk> mizmo: yup
19:28:47 <stickster> NO WAY
19:28:48 <mizmo> is it the same format as open id?
19:28:53 <puiterwijk> Just go to 123done.org (the PErsona test site), and enter FASUSER@fedoraproject.org as email
19:28:53 <mizmo> eg duffy@id.fedoraproject.org?
19:29:02 <mizmo> oh no id.fpo
19:29:15 <mizmo> so maybe just a little note at the bottom of the field to do FASUSER@fedoraproject.org
19:29:21 <mizmo> thats awesome
19:29:40 <puiterwijk> http://patrick.uiterwijk.org/2014/02/15/fedora-is-now-persona-provider/
19:29:46 * puiterwijk shamelessly does self advertisement
19:29:52 <mizmo> okay so if we went zookeepr, just to imagine what it would be like
19:30:00 <mizmo> i think some email notifications would still need to be manual
19:30:06 <stickster> I wish I could give you another cookie puiterwijk
19:30:09 <mizmo> but you'd have a system to at least organize who needs to be emailed when
19:30:24 <mizmo> (i noticed when we accepted talks we didn't get notifs about that for example)
19:30:34 <jwb> er..
19:30:39 <jwb> oh, in zookeepr?
19:30:42 <jwb> or in the past?
19:30:45 <stickster> correct, in zookeepr
19:30:46 <mizmo> yeh in zookeepr
19:30:49 <jwb> gotcha
19:30:50 <mizmo> im envisioning a zookeepr future
19:30:58 <mizmo> as a thought experiemnt
19:31:00 <mizmo> the voting on submissions feature is good, but not blind.
19:31:19 <mizmo> and i dont know if theres the ability to open submission voting to every account in the system
19:31:19 <mizmo> like
19:31:21 <jwb> i'm personally not tied to blind voting
19:31:40 <mizmo> if someone never logged in using their FAS id before, can it be granted to all new users or do they have to log in first?
19:31:43 <stickster> #info There's a separate bug in Persona based registration that stickster just hit
19:31:53 <mizmo> so you might have to have a deadline for people to log in to be able to vote
19:32:18 <mizmo> you can set up tracks for talks ahead of time, and when submitting, people proposing talks can select an appropriate track for their talk
19:32:26 <stickster> #info zookeepr is still looking for address information (address, city, postcode) that it shouldn't, based on our configuration
19:32:48 <mizmo> for remote attendees, you could set up a custom page and put the links to the videos / IRC rooms
19:33:21 <stickster> Yes, and there's also the ability to build out custom help pages for registration and CFP.
19:33:27 <mizmo> for registration - it has pretty extensive options. not sure if you can add arbitrary fields but it covers stuff like country, dietary requirements, etc
19:34:02 <mizmo> no visa tracking, so if you have to worry about visa stuff it'll have to be managed manually or elsewhere
19:34:19 <mizmo> funding requests - people can issue them but as stickster mentioned earlier they aren't linked to their proposals
19:34:24 <mizmo> and there seem to be bugs in it
19:34:26 <mizmo> no reimbursement tracking
19:34:29 <stickster> mizmo: No arbitrary fields, but you can set up single- or multiple-choice fields in the form
19:34:46 <mizmo> it doesn't have any scheduling tool but you can make a custom page and just embed sched.org
19:35:16 <stickster> So for instance we can find out T-shirt size, vegetarian/vegan/GF requests, etc. by making those part of the "checkout cart" at registration.
19:35:22 <mizmo> it does have a thing where people can opt into mailing lists of different volumes related to the conference, but you have to copy/pasta a csv of email addys into mailman manually to sub them
19:35:54 <mizmo> sponsor management is there but kind of manual and painful
19:36:13 <mizmo> their presentation from 2011 says they provide volunteer signup forms, but i wasn't able to find or figure out that feature
19:36:16 <mizmo> no venue bid voting
19:36:39 <stickster> mizmo: Volunteer signup is there -- under /volunteer
19:38:50 <stickster> I think venue bid voting would probably be about as critical as schedule... not a huge win since we already handle that part OK
19:38:59 <stickster> a plus
19:39:16 <jwb> there is not venue voting
19:39:38 <stickster> other than the planners sitting around and saying "Here's the money, here's the venue that makes the most sense" I guess
19:39:57 <jwb> yeah, it's not a vote
19:40:02 <jwb> it isn't even public
19:40:08 <stickster> You can tell some of this is more specific to a conference with multiple sponsors and stakeholders
19:42:28 <stickster> Just to be more explicit... mizmo did an awesome job filling out the testing matrix for these apps
19:42:42 <jwb> definitely
19:43:14 <stickster> For now, it seems like we should give regcfp a run through the wringer, and see how it does. Then we can reconvene to decide whether to use one of these apps.
19:43:34 <stickster> mizmo: Is there anything I'm forgetting to talk about wrt. OSEM or Zookeepr?
19:44:18 <mizmo> sorry got a driveby!
19:44:25 <stickster> np
19:44:46 <jwb> i may have forgotten or missed the email, but are the test instances accessible?
19:45:12 <stickster> jwb: Yes -- I have them on a personal server right now, so I'm giving those out to people in email as they desire
19:45:23 <jwb> i desire.
19:45:25 <mizmo> osem seems nicer overall but shallower / less functional. i feel like maybe fixing up zookeeper a little bit would go a long way
19:45:26 <stickster> I can email you with links
19:45:30 <jwb> thanks
19:45:49 <stickster> mizmo: That's my feeling thus far, too. Let's look at regcfp in the mix and see where it comes out.
19:45:55 <mizmo> +1
19:46:07 <stickster> I'm heartened by the fact that it's been used at a real conference recently, and we happen to know the maintainer (wink, wink)
19:46:14 <mizmo> :)
19:46:47 <stickster> #action mizmo and stickster to test regcfp before next meetup
19:47:01 <stickster> #action stickster send out test links to jwb
19:47:11 <mizmo> yeh the funny thing about osem is they advertise they are the guadec sw but they are not
19:47:17 <jwb> #action jwb to try and crash things
19:47:21 <puiterwijk> Heh. I think that seeing this matrix and your requirements, the current status is not likely to be up to par yet though, just a headsup
19:47:27 <puiterwijk> mizmo: they do?
19:47:37 <mizmo> puiterwijk, yep!!
19:47:48 <mizmo> http://osem.io/
19:47:53 <stickster> puiterwijk: I still want to try it :-)
19:47:55 <mizmo> used by  opensuse | gnome | owncloud
19:48:20 <stickster> Do you guys think we can meet again next week, same time?  I don't want to blow two more weeks by, that way we can get things on track soon for Flock '16
19:48:24 <puiterwijk> stickster: sure. And I can always try to get the roadmap together for GNOME.asia and you can see whether that's interresting as well
19:48:47 <stickster> puiterwijk: That sounds great
19:48:50 <jwb> stickster, i'm able
19:48:58 <mizmo> im able too
19:49:03 <stickster> #agreed meet again in one week's time
19:49:03 <jwb> at the moment though, we're waiting on bids still :\
19:49:29 <stickster> #action stickster schedule follow up for 2015-Oct-15 @ 1500 EDT/1900 UTC
19:49:40 <stickster> #topic All Other Business
19:50:55 <puiterwijk> mizmo: quite interresting. I wonder where they got that, since it wasn't for GUADEC 2013, 2014 or 2015.
19:51:09 <stickster> My recollection is when we talked about this with spot, he was saying that he'd like to have something running by December-ish time frame. I think. We should probably confirm on list, since I can't find email about it.
19:51:27 <mizmo> puiterwijk, i think andreas said that he had tested it out once but it was never used
19:51:32 <jwb> stickster, sounds familiar
19:51:44 <stickster> I still think we can make that happen.
19:52:37 <puiterwijk> mizmo: ah, that sounds more right yeah.
19:52:54 <stickster> #info Still aiming for a December app launch for Flock 2016
19:53:12 <puiterwijk> stickster: note that if you want to run it in Fedora Infra proper (not cloud or openshift), please be in time with requesting resources :-)
19:53:34 <stickster> puiterwijk: Yes -- we need to backtrack from a launch date so that we ask for resources ahead of time
19:53:42 <jwb> puiterwijk, wouldn't it just use the resources the current site is using?
19:53:56 <stickster> I think flocktofedora.org is running on OpenShift
19:53:57 <puiterwijk> jwb: the current site is  openshift, Luke's personal account
19:54:11 <jwb> oh
19:54:28 <puiterwijk> And I'm not too big of a fan of getting user data outside of Fedora Infra, since we have no idea what happens with that data.
19:54:53 <puiterwijk> Now, I happen to trust Luke, but I would like to have it somewhere in our infra or cloud, since everyone will come to #fedora-admin to ask for help when it's down ;)
19:54:55 <stickster> Right, but we also need to balance that with the packaging goo around running a node.js app
19:55:05 <jwb> containers?
19:55:09 <puiterwijk> stickster: right. So that's why Fedora Infra Cloud would be an option as well
19:55:09 <stickster> ^
19:55:17 <stickster> puiterwijk: Absolutely.
19:55:34 <misc> puiterwijk: just make a tar.gz of the website and place it in a rpm :p
19:55:37 <stickster> ha
19:55:46 <puiterwijk> misc: errr... nope :)
19:56:13 <stickster> puiterwijk: Eat your cookie so you have a hand free to give misc a noogie :-D
19:56:16 <puiterwijk> Fedora Infra CSI rules says that it must be in EPEL (except for special exceptions), and I don't thinkyou're going to get that through package review :)
19:56:44 * jwb sighs
19:56:53 <puiterwijk> But, misc++ for sure
19:56:53 <zodbot> puiterwijk: Karma for misc changed to 8 (for the f22 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
19:57:19 <stickster> I'd like to at least consider whether we can make this a candidate for containerization. But I don't want to have the discussion about *how* to do that here :-)
19:57:47 <misc> problem of doing it in container is that either you do it manually with docker, which is fine, but just a chroot on steroids
19:58:21 <misc> or you do it with openshift v3, with proper CI, separation of component, etc, and then, openshift v3 is not in epel and puiterwijk will point at the CSI :)
19:58:56 <jwb> neither of those sound like problems.  they sound like solutions.  ones that stickster doesn't want to discuss in this meeting
19:59:18 <mizmo> i gotta run, i have a meatspace meeting!
19:59:22 <puiterwijk> Yup, that's all technical stuff for after deciding. Just thought I'd remind you of RFR
19:59:36 * stickster too
19:59:58 <stickster> We'll get there :-)
20:00:04 <stickster> Thanks, everyone, for coming!
20:00:06 <stickster> #endmeeting