17:00:04 <mattdm> #startmeeting Council (2015-09-28)
17:00:04 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Sep 28 17:00:04 2015 UTC.  The chair is mattdm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:04 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:05 <mattdm> #meetingname council
17:00:05 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
17:00:07 <mattdm> #chair mattdm jkurik jwb cwickert rdieter langdon sgallagh decause
17:00:07 <zodbot> Current chairs: cwickert decause jkurik jwb langdon mattdm rdieter sgallagh
17:00:11 <mattdm> #topic Introductions, Welcomes
17:00:13 <jwb> hello
17:00:16 <mattdm> hi everyone
17:00:18 <mattdm> hi josh
17:00:32 <mattdm> who else we got?
17:01:18 * rdieter waves, hola
17:01:44 <mattdm> hi rex!
17:01:55 <decause> .hello decause
17:01:56 <zodbot> decause: decause 'Remy DeCausemaker' <decause@redhat.com>
17:02:13 <mattdm> okay, getting close to meaningful quorum
17:02:49 * mattdm will wait another two minutes
17:03:05 <mattdm> but in the meantime anyone have anything to add to agenda items i sent earlier?
17:03:24 * decause does not, and replied as much
17:03:51 <sgallagh> /me arrives late
17:04:00 <mattdm> hi sgallagh!
17:04:11 <mattdm> #topic Agenda
17:04:15 <decause> sgallagh++
17:04:20 <decause> jwb++
17:04:21 <mattdm> 1. PRD reviews
17:04:23 <mattdm> 2. Outreachy intern proposal
17:04:25 <mattdm> 3. Python 3 fad proposal (no ticket yet)
17:04:27 <mattdm> 4. Quick items
17:04:29 <mattdm> - Astronomy Lab spin proposal
17:04:31 <mattdm> - openshift origin
17:04:33 <mattdm> - dopr update (just fyi: mattdm to meet with rh legal for followup)
17:04:35 <mattdm> 5. Who do we want next for a subproject status presentation?
17:04:45 <mattdm> no one had anything to add so let's get started :)
17:04:49 <mattdm> #topic PRD reviews
17:04:57 <mattdm> https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/32
17:04:58 * threebean lurks
17:05:03 <mattdm> https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/31
17:05:11 <mattdm> https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/36
17:05:18 <mattdm> these have been sitting there for a while
17:05:23 <mattdm> with no council comments
17:05:37 <mattdm> None of them have any major changes, really, just cleanup and refocus
17:05:51 <jwb> i wasn't aware they were actually read for review
17:05:59 <jwb> the cloud one seemed in flux when the ticket was filed
17:06:48 <mattdm> cloud has settled down as is, but the cloud wg (full disclosure -- I am one of the people agitating for this) may have a bigger proposed change later
17:07:21 <jwb> i recall reading them and not having any objections to the changes
17:07:27 <jwb> as you said, they are mostly cleanups
17:07:50 <mattdm> does anyone have any objection to stamping these accepted and moving on?
17:08:01 <mattdm> sgallagh, as this is your Objective area, any comments?
17:08:09 <sgallagh> Right, the intention was to circle around on that and ensure that they reflected the state of reality
17:08:15 <jwb> no objection.  yay for edition autonomoy.
17:08:18 <rdieter> no objections, but i've only perused workstation so far
17:08:19 <mattdm> do you feel that they do? :)
17:08:25 <decause> no objections here
17:08:58 <sgallagh> I believe we also asserted originally we wanted to have this be a regularly-scheduled review, I think timed for discussion at Flock (but not including this year because these were submitted in the Spring)
17:09:14 <sgallagh> mattdm: I do
17:09:24 <mattdm> sgallagh: you may kiss the bride
17:09:37 <mattdm> (that's how that litany goes, right?)
17:09:45 <mattdm> annnyway.
17:09:46 <sgallagh> We should probably coordinate with jkurik to have the PRD review added to the formal project schedule
17:09:47 <decause> :P
17:10:12 <mattdm> sgallagh good idea. jkurik doesn't seem to be in-channel. can you take that to him?
17:10:16 <sgallagh> Will do
17:10:39 <decause> #action sgallagh reach out to jkurik to add PRD review to official project schedule
17:10:44 <mattdm> decause++
17:10:54 <decause> sgallagh++
17:10:54 <mattdm> I'm gonna then mark all of the these closed
17:11:05 <mattdm> #topic outreachy intern proposal
17:11:18 <mattdm> https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/41
17:11:23 * decause waves to marinaz
17:11:26 <mattdm> decause, the floor is yours :)
17:11:29 <decause> so
17:11:30 <marinaz> hi decause, all!
17:11:34 <decause> it's that time of year again
17:11:41 <marinaz> here to answer any Outreachy related questions
17:11:52 <decause> Outreachy, formerly Outreach Program For Women, is commencing it's winter cycle
17:12:17 <decause> #info
17:12:24 <decause> #info November 2: - application deadline November 17: - selection decisions are made December 7 - March 7: - internships
17:13:16 <decause> there are atleast 3 mentors that have indicated they would be willing to support interns working on Fedora projects
17:13:17 <sgallagh> marinaz: How does the selection process work?
17:13:37 <sgallagh> I mostly ask because we had kind of a bad experience with GSoC this year and I'm concerned about student quality.
17:13:42 * mattdm has a comment/question but will wait for sgallagh's q
17:13:57 <sgallagh> (Of the five students we accepted, two of them were trying to get a free ride out of it)
17:14:02 <decause> interns go to a "buffet" of approved projects here (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Outreachy/2015#Project_List) and then start contributing
17:14:22 <decause> the difference between Outreachy and GSoC, is that you must contribute *first* before selection
17:14:27 <marinaz> sgallagh: community coordinator (decause + he might have a co-coordinator) and mentors make the selections
17:14:36 <decause> that way, we can get a feel for the quality before hiring/selecting
17:14:53 <marinaz> sgallagh: we encourage people to be very selective and are available to look over applications for new communities
17:15:42 <sgallagh> OK, that alleviates my concern quite a bit.
17:16:01 <marinaz> sgallagh: communities can nominate someone for additional general funds if they don't have funds to accept them beyond at least one person they have to have funds for; in that case Outreachy coordinators make the decision
17:16:02 <sgallagh> (We're planning for next year to only accept GSoC students with a pre-existing relationship with the project they are applying to)
17:16:08 <decause> sgallagh: I think it is a *major* improvement over GSoC, and have been watching the maillists for GSoC since 2013 deal with much attrition
17:16:35 <mattdm> There is another big concern, though, as raised by jwb in the ticket.
17:16:41 <marinaz> sgallagh: Fedora would totally be able not to accept anyone if they have no strong applicants
17:16:49 <jwb> yes
17:17:04 <mattdm> that is, it's hard to make these decisions in the dark
17:17:28 <decause> jwb: duly noted, and as a stop-gap for this, I had proposed last week to have a meeting with rsuehle and the council to give a full update
17:17:44 <mattdm> nb that proposal is in a private council ticket :)
17:18:06 <marinaz> sgallagh: GNOME started having a requirement of relevant contributions for all GSoC applicants too after we introduced it in OPW
17:18:10 <mattdm> So, proposal: let's schedule that meeting for ASAP, and table this until that point?
17:18:33 <decause> mattdm: added difficulty tho, this is a somewhat time-sensitive proposal
17:18:46 <decause> marinaz: when do you absolutely need our answer by?
17:18:49 * mattdm looks back to the schedule you posted -- looks like we have until nov 2?
17:18:58 <decause> mattdm: not quite
17:19:03 <marinaz> mattdm: the application process opens tomorrow
17:19:34 <marinaz> mattdm: Fedora would have the best chances of attracting more applicants and building a relationship with them if it's added this week
17:19:37 <mattdm> marinaz: oh the _intern_ application process
17:20:35 <mattdm> so, it looks like ruth isn't available this week, but could be next week
17:20:53 <mattdm> decause, can you see if we can use our meeting slot next week to talk to ruth?
17:20:58 <decause> mattdm: yes, LinuxCon Europe has a strong Fedora presence this week
17:21:13 <mattdm> (that day is the soonest you'd mentioned she could be available)
17:21:13 <decause> mattdm: she is ready as soon as we are, as long as it is after LinuxCon ;)
17:21:27 <marinaz> mattdm: I'd say October 9 is the absolute deadline for Fedora to make a decision on this; but I recommend resolving it as soon as possible for the reasons stated above
17:22:06 <mattdm> okay, so...
17:22:07 <marinaz> I'd also like to note that Fedora has the landing page created and a few project ideas listed
17:22:21 <marinaz> so it would be ready to go as soon as funding is made available
17:22:33 <decause> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Outreachy/2015
17:22:54 <jwb> decause, FYI, ruth can't view the ticket you opened even though her email is CC'd
17:22:58 <jwb> so you might want to fix that
17:22:59 <marinaz> decause: was there anything ruth indicated to you about the current budget?
17:23:00 <mattdm> proposal: meet with ruth about budget next monday, decause to update proposal ticket based on that conversation, and final decision on friday, oct 9?
17:23:10 <decause> there are a few finer-details that need to be smoothed out (mail-list addresses to be changed from OPW->Outreachy) but for the most part, the important details are there
17:23:37 <rdieter> i'm ok with ack'ing this prior to the meeting with ruth, with the assumed hope that it'll all work out (ie, we trust those proposing this enough to not break the bank)
17:23:44 <jwb> marinaz, i'd rather not discuss the budget through a game of telephone.  we're going to meet ASAP on it and then ruth won't have to repeat herself
17:23:53 <decause> jwb: I have been keeping her availed directly on this one, I know the council has been needing clarity, and made it a priority during my 1x1 with her last week
17:23:57 <langdon> The Internet gods have finally let me attach
17:24:02 <langdon> .hello langdon
17:24:03 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@fishjump.com>
17:24:05 <decause> langdon++
17:24:08 <mattdm> welcome langdon
17:24:14 <jwb> decause, great.  fix the ticket so you don't have to act as an intermediary for crappy software
17:24:21 <rdieter> all praise the internet gods
17:24:29 <mattdm> decause: current topic outreachy intern proposal https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/41
17:25:24 <mattdm> jwb: does my proposal above sound okay? do you have an alternate one?
17:25:34 <decause> I'm with rdieter on this one too, and would be willing to approve provisional budget prior to Ruth meeting
17:25:38 <jwb> mattdm, the 'meet with ruth next monday'
17:25:39 <jwb> ?
17:25:52 <mattdm> jwb: and then have an answer by friday.
17:25:59 <jwb> yes, that sounds great
17:26:02 <decause> I'm not against waiting until Oct 9th to make the call either though
17:26:22 <mattdm> and, corellary, if we can't meet with ruth that soon, we can't really make this deadline
17:26:46 <mattdm> decause imma action you to schedule that meeting, k?
17:27:07 <decause> mattdm: sounds good
17:27:11 <mattdm> #action decause to schedule meeting with Ruth ideally during this time slot next week
17:27:42 * mattdm will update ticket
17:27:55 * decause would like to make a last-ditch plea here
17:28:15 <mattdm> decause okay go :)
17:28:29 <decause> I think we should schedule the meeting with Ruth regardless, but I don't know if waiting a week to advertise to interns is a good idea
17:28:41 <decause> if we want the best chance at the best applicants, we should hit the ground running
17:28:43 <marinaz> so if you wait until October 9, you will miss 2 weeks of applicants finding out about Outreachy, choosing a community, and starting to contribute
17:28:54 <decause> Outreachy is one of the *best* FOSS internship programs out
17:29:09 <marinaz> there will still be 3 more weeks left, which we consider reasonable, and people finding out later
17:29:15 <decause> marinaz did with the O'Reilly Open Source Award this year, you don't have to take my word for it ;)
17:29:16 <marinaz> so it's workable either way
17:29:17 <mattdm> Yeah, but if we advertise and can't pay them, that pretty much sucks, doesn't it?
17:29:56 <marinaz> but all things equal, sooner is better, so if you want to wait till Monday, October 5 to talk to Ruth, it's better to decide sooner after that
17:29:59 <sgallagh> mattdm: I'd be in favor of advertising and taking up a collection if we had to. I think the community would rise to the occasion if we backed ourselves into that particular corner
17:30:02 <decause> what I'm trying to say, is this is a priority in a number of areas, both in council objectives, and high-priority projects
17:30:12 <jwb> sgallagh, .....
17:30:26 <jwb> taking up a collection?  fedora has no legal basis for accepting monetary donations
17:30:46 <sgallagh> jwb: OK, perhaps that was the wrong choice of words.
17:31:01 <decause> sgallagh: but SFC does
17:31:04 <sgallagh> I was assuming that Outreachy has the means to accept cash that we could piggy-back on
17:31:16 <decause> and SFC administers the funds, and if we needed to point there, it could happen
17:31:36 <marinaz> you should only make a decision now if you know that you have these funds; and it's only a matter of priorities
17:31:37 * decause would prefer not to, but would if necessary
17:31:46 <rdieter> pardon my ignorance, but what is SFC?
17:31:55 <sgallagh> Software Freedom Conservancy
17:32:03 <decause> #link http://softwarefreedomconservancy.org
17:32:07 <jwb> decause, we just spent over $70k on flock.  ~$15K for fudcon latam, another $7500 was just approved for a FAD.  we are literally flying blind here.  i am not willing to put us on the hook for another significant chunk of money unless we know we have that money
17:32:30 <decause> jwb: I am cool with taking the conservative approach
17:32:41 <jwb> the i don't understand the point of your last ditch plea
17:32:46 <decause> I wouldn't feel like I was doing my job if I didn't make a passionate plea ;)
17:32:46 <jwb> s/the/then
17:33:01 <marinaz> sgallagh: we haven't done project specific donations to Conservancy yet, just general ones for Outreachy - I'd need to check if that's something we can enable easily
17:33:27 <marinaz> sgallagh: in any case, I wouldn't recommend basing participation on fundraising that has not yet started
17:33:29 <jwb> and to be clear, i fully support this once we figure out if we have the money.
17:33:37 <sgallagh> marinaz: Completely reasonable.
17:33:54 <sgallagh> Yeah, I'm strongly in favor of having Fedora support Outreachy in any way possibl
17:34:01 <decause> jwb: It is my fault for not getting this onto the radar sooner of the council as Co-coordinator, so I'm good with the process we've outlined
17:34:46 <decause> I just want the record to reflect how much impact I think Outreachy has on the FOSS community
17:34:49 <mattdm> #info Council is strongly in favor of Fedora participation in Outreachy, but can't commit because we're unclear on the budget
17:34:59 <decause> mattdm: excellent summation
17:35:08 <mattdm> decause: can you update the ticket?
17:35:12 <decause> mattdm: yes
17:35:21 <mattdm> thanks. and, moving on....
17:35:27 <marinaz> thanks all!
17:35:29 <decause> #action decause update ticket #41 with council decision
17:35:32 <mattdm> #topic Python 3 fad proposal (no ticket yet)
17:35:40 <mattdm> so, uh, here we are with another one of these.
17:35:50 <sgallagh> Is this for the current-year or next-year budgets?
17:35:53 * potty is here regarding this topic
17:35:55 <jwb> proposal: defer until after the budget meeting
17:36:03 <decause> this one doesn't have a ticket yet though, so it isn't an official request for budget yet, right? :P
17:36:06 <sgallagh> Oh, Nov 14
17:36:07 <jwb> actually strike that
17:36:08 <sgallagh> So this year.
17:36:09 <mattdm> jwb yeah I was just going to make that proposal :)
17:36:22 <jwb> mattdm, i mean, we can review it for applicability and then defer :)
17:36:30 <mattdm> jwb: right :)
17:36:45 <mattdm> potty: can you clarify a bit exactly what the proposal will be?
17:36:49 <mattdm> for example, location
17:36:58 <mattdm> is this meant to be in latam, brno, or somewhere else?
17:37:21 <potty> Both latam and brno
17:37:25 <jwb> mattdm, the original email sais both
17:37:27 <jwb> er, says
17:37:43 <potty> As i far i understood in brno, they will get a space on PyCon
17:37:46 <mattdm> that's why I'm confused. FADs are usually getting people all in the same place, yeah?
17:37:56 <potty> mattdm: yes
17:38:16 <mattdm> So this is getting some of the people in the same place? :)
17:38:16 <potty> But we want to make it bit different, if possible of course
17:38:32 <sgallagh> Yeah, realistically this sounds like two FADs
17:38:33 <mattdm> Different _can_ be possible, yeah.
17:38:42 <mattdm> Or, one vFAD?
17:38:46 <potty> sgallagh: yes
17:38:56 <jwb> doing a dual-physical but jointly virtual FAD in cz and latam sounds like a logisitical problem
17:38:59 <potty> sgallagh: but regarding the same topic
17:39:18 <jwb> the timezone issue alone make it dubious there will be a lot of overlap between the two physical FADs
17:39:44 <mattdm> unless there's some kind of relay-race handing of work from team to team around the globe
17:39:54 <decause> #info once upon a time, the PSF offered grants to help with porting upstream projects to python3
17:39:57 <decause> #link http://pyfound.blogspot.com/2011/12/psf-proffers-payment-to-port-to-python.html
17:40:19 <decause> perhaps this could help supplment our funding? It is worth researching at the very least
17:40:30 <mattdm> decause: it's really hard for Fedora to take money
17:40:34 <decause> note that 2011 was quite some time ago
17:40:55 <sgallagh> mattdm: I think he meant to use Fedora to aid PSF in paying the participants directly
17:41:38 <mattdm> In that case I think it'd probably be participants applying for grants directly at https://www.python.org/psf/grants/ in order to attend our event
17:41:51 <sgallagh> But my thoughts on this (excluding budgetary concerns...) are that it should either be a vFAD with some participants happening to be at PyCon or else we should be flying people to PyCon
17:41:59 <decause> mattdm++
17:42:01 <mattdm> or http://pythonsprints.com/
17:42:13 <decause> sgallagh: I too thought pycon sprints would be a good opportunity for participation
17:42:17 <sgallagh> I don't see strong value in paying for people to gather in separate physical locations
17:42:35 <decause> but, that would be more expensive to fly people to US, than to hold FADS in LATAM/EMEA
17:42:46 * decause speculates, did not price it out
17:42:50 <mattdm> sgallagh yeah, that's my thought too. either get everyone together in the way that has the most impact, or do a vfad
17:43:30 <decause> something "coordinated" around PyCon Sprints would be good, but colocated may not be the most impact per spend
17:43:36 <sgallagh> decause: Yeah, I realize that. Hence why I think the vFAD with some people at PyCon CZ makes sense
17:43:42 <decause> sgallagh: agreed
17:43:44 <mattdm> I know that for the G11N FAD, RH's g11n group is paying for some expenses, separate from the Fedora budget
17:43:44 <decause> mattdm: agreed
17:44:00 <potty> If you think the logistics is too complicated, let's do the vFAD. My goal is to make LATAM people participate with other regions regarding an important topic
17:44:08 <potty> :-(
17:44:09 <sgallagh> And ask the PSF to help bring people there if we REALLY want colocation
17:44:40 <mattdm> Since Python 3 is strategically important for RH, it is possible that Red Hat engineering would pay for travel for some python experts to travel to LATAM for a physical FAD
17:44:47 <jwb> we could piggy back on several things though
17:45:07 <jwb> i'm sure pycon.cz and pycon.  probably devconf on the fedora day
17:45:13 <potty> mattdm: :-)
17:45:43 <mattdm> potty: note that this is not in my power. however, I have asked about it inside rh.
17:45:55 <jwb> i see more potential for sustained effort if we plan out several vFADs where people happen to be colocated already
17:45:57 <decause> not to get to back-patty or meta, but it is *really* cool to see the council all coming up with all the ways to make a thing happen :)
17:46:05 <potty> mattdm: it is ok. Ty
17:46:13 <decause> feodracouncil++
17:46:31 * decause is still new here, sorry :P
17:46:34 <mattdm> lol
17:46:59 * decause will pipe down now, honest
17:47:02 <mattdm> okay, so -- we *do* really need to wait until after our upcoming budget meeting. But let's take this discussion and these ieas back to the list
17:47:18 <decause> sgtm
17:47:27 * mattdm wants to get through next agenda items in < 13 remaining minutes :)
17:47:28 <sgallagh> ack
17:47:40 <mattdm> #info We *do* really need to wait until after our upcoming budget meeting. But let's take this discussion and these ieas back to the list
17:47:52 <mattdm> #topic Quick items! Astronomy labs, OpenShift, Dopr
17:47:59 <mattdm> let me do these in reverse real fast. :)
17:48:13 <mattdm> Dopr: I've scheduled a meeting about this. will report back later in the week.
17:48:33 <mattdm> OpenShift: despite my enthusiasm, did not drum up much other actual interest
17:48:56 <mattdm> Adam Miller (maxamillion) has noted personal interest in making sure openshift v3 runs on fedora
17:49:05 <mattdm> and I've heard similar from others on openshift team
17:49:07 <sgallagh> What was the OpenShift question?
17:49:32 <mattdm> this is kind of blocked on Go lang guidelines
17:49:35 <mattdm> sgallagh: https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/15
17:49:38 <mattdm> #link https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/15
17:49:58 <langdon> I believe OpenShift will be shipping in containers very soon.. So this may be moot
17:50:10 <mattdm> so I'm proposing we defer this until we actually have people interested in getting openshift back into fedora
17:50:29 <decause> mattdm: perhaps our next report could come from maxamillion? :P
17:50:34 <mattdm> langdon: well, if they're not fedora-based containers, it's not just moot, it's zap the whole thing
17:50:53 <mattdm> decause: yes, but not for a while. so unless anyone objects, I'm gonna close this as deferred
17:50:54 * decause is jumping ahead in the agenda tho
17:50:58 <sgallagh> mattdm: One of my tentative plans for F24 is to have "PaaS Node" (powered by OpenShift) as a Server Role..
17:51:05 <sgallagh> This is probably relevant information
17:51:26 <mattdm> sgallagh: ooh. yes, that very much is.
17:51:36 <langdon> Well.. They could be Fedora based...but they could carry direct binaries for things not in fedora.. And/or, the containers may not be os based at all
17:51:55 <mattdm> langdon: hmmm :)
17:52:09 <mattdm> that is not a "close meeting in 8 minutes" line of thought :)
17:52:28 <mattdm> does anyone object to me marking this as deferred for now?
17:52:39 <mattdm> sgallagh can reopen if your thing takes off :)
17:52:49 <sgallagh> ack
17:52:55 <decause> +1
17:53:27 <langdon> +1
17:53:36 <mattdm> sold!
17:53:44 <mattdm> #link https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/35
17:53:54 <mattdm> "astronomy lab" trademark approval
17:54:19 <mattdm> this looks routine and positive to me. we need 3 +1s and no -1s to approve, though
17:54:28 <mattdm> can we do that in ticket, please?
17:55:29 <mattdm> and then...
17:55:40 <mattdm> #topic suggestions for subproject update?
17:55:50 <mattdm> we have slot for another video update two weeks from now
17:56:09 <mattdm> What/who would folks like to hear from?
17:56:19 <decause> knowing that mizmo will be gone soonlyish, perhaps a design team update would be timely?
17:56:49 <mattdm> that's a good idea. I'll post a message to design team
17:57:14 * rdieter adds soonlyush to jargon, kudos
17:57:20 <rdieter> minus my typo
17:57:24 <mattdm> #topic 2 minutes of openfloor
17:57:32 * decause hopes the design team doesn't mind being put on the spot by decause :P
17:57:52 * spot shakes the design team off his back
17:57:53 <rdieter> decause: they can always decline the invitation
17:58:00 * decause wants to anticipate the *giant* hole that opens when there isn't a mizmo around
17:58:05 <decause> mizmo++
17:58:07 <mattdm> lol
17:58:43 <sgallagh> decause: I think she'd take offense at that implication about her size ;-)
17:58:51 <decause> sgallagh: :X
17:59:28 <mattdm> okay, so.... ending meeting :)
17:59:30 <mattdm> thanks all!
17:59:34 <decause> thanks mattdm!
17:59:38 <mattdm> #endmeeting