15:01:32 <rdieter> #startmeeting kde-sig
15:01:32 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Sep 22 15:01:32 2015 UTC.  The chair is rdieter. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:01:32 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:01:36 <rdieter> #meetingname kde-sig
15:01:36 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'kde-sig'
15:01:39 <rdieter> #topic roll call
15:01:47 <rdieter> hi all, friendly kde-sig meeting, who's present today?
15:02:30 * dvratil is present
15:02:33 <tosky> hi
15:03:33 <Kevin_Kofler> Present.
15:04:37 * danofsatx is here
15:04:56 * danofsatx is still setting up Beta torrent seeds
15:05:30 <rdieter> #info rdieter dvratil tosky Kevin_Kofler danofsatx present
15:05:35 <rdieter> #chair dvratil tosky Kevin_Kofler danofsatx
15:05:35 <zodbot> Current chairs: Kevin_Kofler danofsatx dvratil rdieter tosky
15:05:39 <rdieter> #topic agenda
15:05:56 <rdieter> any agenda topics you'd like to discuss?  I through out some earlier in #fedora-kde
15:06:10 <danofsatx> s/through/threw
15:06:28 <rdieter> heh, that too
15:06:34 <rdieter> f23 blocker/polish issues:  kde-config-gtk vs kcm_gtk ,  theming (fixed in -testing), plasma-pk-updates (needswork)
15:06:45 <rdieter> maybe a kf5-5.14 status update (dvratil)
15:06:58 <rdieter> kde-apps-15.08.1 (rdieter)
15:07:11 <dvratil> yep (that will be fast ;))
15:07:18 <rdieter> anything else?
15:07:53 <rdieter> ok, let's get started
15:08:11 <rdieter> #topic status updates: recent kf5, kde-apps releases
15:08:16 <rdieter> dvratil: go ahead
15:09:08 <dvratil> I built the update in rawhide last week, and started f23 update, but it did not finish before me leaving on Friday and I haven't been in the office since, so couldn't to the final push. Will do so tomorrow morning
15:09:26 <rdieter> thx, worksforme
15:09:45 <rdieter> I've been slowly working my way through kde-apps-15.08.1 stuff as time permits
15:10:04 <rdieter> oh, and fyi, I've been adding something to fedora git to help my scripting
15:10:22 <rdieter> I've added a sources.basename file to modules where the tarball doesn't match the git module name
15:11:29 <rdieter> i've got most of the "important" 15.08.1 stuff built for f23 and submitted to -testing
15:11:36 <rdieter> I was hoping to work on the ktp bits today
15:12:17 <rdieter> any questions or comment on either of these?
15:12:19 <danofsatx> :q
15:12:24 <danofsatx> whoops, wrong window
15:13:25 <rdieter> moving on...
15:13:34 <rdieter> #topic f23 blockers and polish
15:13:58 <rdieter> .bug 1262599
15:13:59 <zodbot> rdieter: Bug 1262599 Fedora 23 artwork (background/wallpaper) not applied by default - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/1262599
15:14:07 <rdieter> submitted kde-settings update to address this blocker ^^
15:14:29 <rdieter> I'd previously hoped that setting default look-n-feel alone would be enough, but apparently it was not
15:14:52 <rdieter> stuff missed included: icon theme, and wallpaper
15:15:32 <rdieter> I also took the liberty of adding to evn.sh support for plasma-specific XDG_CONFIG_DIRS (similar to how we've historically used XDG_DATA_DIRS)
15:15:59 <Kevin_Kofler> Are we adding .kde/share/config there?
15:16:01 <rdieter> new (added) path is: /etc/xdg:/usr/share/kde-settings/kde-profile/default/xdg/
15:16:12 <Kevin_Kofler> (I think that could help migration issues a lot.)
15:16:31 <rdieter> that would be XDG_CONFIG_HOME probably
15:16:37 <rdieter> if you wanted to munge that
15:16:39 <Kevin_Kofler> I suppose.
15:16:53 <Kevin_Kofler> Of course it'd close a can of worms and open another.
15:17:27 <rdieter> .bug 1262600
15:17:28 <zodbot> rdieter: Bug 1262600 Plasma live session notifies for available updates - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/1262600
15:17:32 <rdieter> I'd tested a bit for ^^
15:17:59 <rdieter> found that things seem to be weird for the first/initial plasma login, where one cannot manually enable/disable plasma systray applets
15:18:09 <rdieter> so that obviously affects the live image
15:18:24 <rdieter> any help to test/debug that would be appreciated
15:18:34 <rdieter> I guess I should file a bug upstream too
15:19:19 <rdieter> the other f23-related item on my mind was kcm-gtk/xsetings-kde vs kde-config-gtk
15:19:42 <rdieter> we've discussed it a bit before, but nothing has been done about it afaik yet
15:20:15 <rdieter> if kcm-gtk/xsettings-kde setup cannot be fixed, I propose we drop them in favor of kde-config-gtk.  While not ideal, it's better than the status quo
15:20:23 <tosky> can you please do a another brief summary?
15:20:41 <rdieter> kcm-gtk is kde4-based still
15:20:51 <rdieter> so not visible in systemsettings
15:21:12 <rdieter> and xsettings-kde presence interferes with kde-config-gtk functionality
15:21:16 <tosky> yes, but what is exactly xsettings-kde doing that kcm-config-gtk is not doing? I've got lost
15:21:24 <Kevin_Kofler> I still haven't gotten an answer to my question from last week: Who was it who started working on updating and modernizing xsettings-kde (I know someone from KDE SIG did!) and what happened to it?
15:21:27 <rdieter> they both try to do the same thing
15:21:37 <Kevin_Kofler> tosky: xsettings-kde makes KDE settings apply to GTK+.
15:21:48 <tosky> so does kcm-config-gtk
15:22:02 <Kevin_Kofler> No, that makes a KDE KCM for GTK+-specific settings.
15:22:05 <Kevin_Kofler> It's very different.
15:22:19 <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: well, similar
15:22:31 <Kevin_Kofler> The only GTK+-specific setting in xsettings-kde, which was shown by kcm-gtk and read from the file kcm-gtk writes, is the theme.
15:22:31 <rdieter> they both help configure gtk stuff
15:22:55 <Kevin_Kofler> (only one for both GTK+ 2 and 3, because that's all the XSettings setup supports, they use the same XSetting)
15:23:02 <Kevin_Kofler> (GNOME has the same limitation.)
15:23:15 <rdieter> we've historically liked the xsettings-kde approach best
15:23:49 <rdieter> (for various reasons), but like I said, if we can't fix it, we should switch away from it
15:23:55 <Kevin_Kofler> Also, kcm-config-gtk writes to global GTK+ 3 (and maybe 2, though there you can have a KDE-specific config file through environment variables, GTK+ 3 unfortunately dropped that feature) config files, which also affect non-KDE sessions.
15:24:07 <Kevin_Kofler> xsettings-kde and kcm_gtk both only affect KDE Plasma sessions.
15:24:13 <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: are you sure?  Last I checked, it only affected user settings
15:24:20 <Kevin_Kofler> User settings = global.
15:24:31 <Kevin_Kofler> The settings should be per desktop, not per user.
15:24:36 <rdieter> my definition of user settings was that it saved stuff under users' $HOME
15:24:45 <Kevin_Kofler> See above.
15:24:52 <Kevin_Kofler> It still affects all sessions that user runs.
15:24:54 <rdieter> ok, fair enough.  I consider that an implementation detail
15:25:02 <Kevin_Kofler> I don't.
15:25:13 <rdieter> it's one reason why we prefered the other approach, yes
15:25:17 <Kevin_Kofler> It prevents shipping GTK+ default settings that integrate with KDE.
15:25:18 <rdieter> but I don't consider it a blocker.
15:25:25 <Kevin_Kofler> Because we can't force them onto all other desktops.
15:25:28 <Kevin_Kofler> So IMHO it is a blocker.
15:25:33 <tosky> is it a real issue? I mean, How much time each day a user is going to change desktop environment?
15:25:36 <rdieter> I guess we can disagree on that
15:25:38 <Kevin_Kofler> GTK+ needs to INTEGRATE by default.
15:25:55 <rdieter> configure it accordingly to integrate then
15:25:58 <Kevin_Kofler> The xsettings-kde approach ensures that (by reading KDE settings and applying them in KDE sessions).
15:26:03 <tosky> Usually, if you change, you stay for a while with the same environment
15:26:09 <Kevin_Kofler> The kcm-config-gtk approach does NOT.
15:26:16 <Kevin_Kofler> You need to fine-tune GTK+ by hand.
15:26:30 <Kevin_Kofler> (or we could do it on the KDE spin, but ewww…)
15:26:41 <rdieter> yes, it's not as nice, but forcing users to do: kcmshell4 kcm-gtk , isn't nice either
15:26:47 <Kevin_Kofler> (and it won't help those who use other spins and especially not those who use multiple desktops)
15:27:10 <Kevin_Kofler> Sure, that's not good either, which gets me back to the question: What happened to xsettings-kde?
15:27:12 <rdieter> we need a native, supported kcm
15:27:18 <Kevin_Kofler> Porting kcm_gtk to KF5 should be very easy.
15:27:30 <Kevin_Kofler> But I don't want to spend my time on it if I don't know what is happening to xsettings-kde.
15:27:56 <Kevin_Kofler> Because without xsettings-kde, kcm-config-gtk is more useful.
15:27:59 <tosky> again, how many people are continuously switching desktop?
15:28:43 <rdieter> tosky: that's a rarer use-case, imo.
15:29:07 <Kevin_Kofler> BTW, for KCMs that are still not ported, we should ship a .desktop file like this: http://svn.calcforge.org/viewvc/kannolo/trunk/packages/ufw-kde/ufw-kde.desktop?revision=139&view=markup
15:29:11 <rdieter> users in that class will likely be customizing things anyway
15:29:25 <than_> sorry for late joining to meeting
15:29:32 <Kevin_Kofler> This is a Type=Application .desktop file, it goes to /usr/share/applications, and it sets up an "application" that fires up kcmshell4.
15:29:33 <rdieter> #info than_ joined
15:29:34 <rdieter> than_: hi
15:30:19 <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: I'd rather kcm-gtk/xsettings-kde get fixed properly than continue to pile on hacks
15:30:35 <rdieter> or... drop them and just use gtk-config
15:31:09 <Kevin_Kofler> It's sad that whoever started working on xsettings-kde doesn't even seem to remember that he did. :-(
15:31:27 <rdieter> I don't recall anyone working on it, but you're probably more familiar with it than I
15:31:54 <Kevin_Kofler> It might have been just an idea that wasn't followed through.
15:32:03 <rdieter> sounds familiar :)
15:32:11 <Kevin_Kofler> So I suppose we'll have to start from where we are now.
15:33:25 <Kevin_Kofler> As for the .desktop file, really, I think this is a MUCH better user experience than being told "run kcmshell4 kcmname in a Konsole".
15:33:46 <rdieter> sure
15:33:55 <Kevin_Kofler> It will just be a separate menu entry, like the system-config-* apps. And it's easy to set up.
15:34:10 <rdieter> (I also think switching to kde-gtk-config is superior to that option as well)
15:34:40 <rdieter> though I guess these are not mutually exclusive, feel free to add a .desktop if you like, it's an improvement
15:36:01 <rdieter> anything else f23 related to discuss?
15:36:38 <rdieter> it's looking nice, imo, been running it on my laptop since alpha
15:37:30 <orionp> FYI - I need to retest and file, but I'm seeing sddm-helper segfault on login on my F23 vm sending me back to the login screen
15:39:09 <rdieter> orionp: I did see your bug about the fedora qml theme (some qml warning/error), we can definitely fix that at least
15:39:22 <rdieter> the crash... is not well understood yet (is it?)
15:39:32 <orionp> No, it's not
15:39:58 <orionp> Lot's of different issues happening at the same time
15:40:20 <orionp> And there seems to be a race involved
15:40:41 <orionp> not 100% reproducible and tends to work under strace
15:40:49 <rdieter> of course :-/
15:41:01 <orionp> but I'll try to poke around more today
15:42:22 <rdieter> moving on...
15:42:26 <rdieter> #topic open discussion
15:42:51 <rdieter> I think that's all the formal discussion topics I had, anything else to discuss?
15:43:23 <Kevin_Kofler> Did we get enough complaints about Firefox to warrant reopening the discussion for Final?
15:43:35 <Kevin_Kofler> IMHO, that late post-freeze change needs to be reverted.
15:44:11 <rdieter> I haven't seen or heard anything new
15:44:31 <Kevin_Kofler> Too bad, I'd have hoped for more user outcry.
15:44:41 <Kevin_Kofler> Firefox sticks out of our spin like a sore thumb.
15:44:48 <Kevin_Kofler> All the more due to the sorry state of GTK+ integration.
15:44:49 <than_> Kevin_Kofler: firefox works fine here
15:44:52 <Kevin_Kofler> (see our earlier discussion)
15:45:12 <Kevin_Kofler> (and that's when Firefox even honors GTK+ settings, which it doesn't always either!)
15:45:15 <rdieter> I don't think Kevin_Kofler's criticisms have anything to do with functionality
15:45:36 <rdieter> more about integration
15:45:37 <Kevin_Kofler> Right, they have to do with integration and consistency.
15:46:06 <Kevin_Kofler> (and also with some freedom and privacy concerns about Firefox in general on all spins)
15:46:51 <rdieter> I suppose I could re-add a favorites shortcut for konqueror again (currently favorites for f23+ include only firefox)
15:47:01 <Kevin_Kofler> You can't even change the GTK+ theme without hacks right now. And do we even have breeze-gtk packaged yet?
15:47:12 <Kevin_Kofler> Firefox is unusable without that.
15:47:30 <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: no
15:47:48 <Kevin_Kofler> And even then, it doesn't honor even the GTK+ icon settings, so how do you get it to use Breeze (or Oxygen or whatever theme you use) icons? I don't know of any way short of making your own icon theme extension.
15:48:12 <Kevin_Kofler> FIle dialogs are also wrong (GTK+ ones AFAIK) etc.
15:48:25 <Kevin_Kofler> No KWallet, no KIO, no anything.
15:49:01 <Kevin_Kofler> I think that with the current status of GTK+ (non-)integration, ANY GTK+ app on the spin should be a blocker.
15:49:16 <Kevin_Kofler> (but sadly, replacing Anaconda with Calamares is not going to happen for F23)
15:49:27 <Kevin_Kofler> Still, at least the web browser should NOT be GTK+.
15:50:26 <rdieter> <nod> your view on the topic is pretty clear
15:51:05 <Kevin_Kofler> Well, the status of GTK+ integration (likely not fixed in time for F23) is a new argument.
15:56:37 <rdieter> k, 5 min of silence, let's wrap up... thanks everyone
15:56:40 <rdieter> #endmeeting