06:00:03 <pravins> #startmeeting i18n
06:00:03 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jul  8 06:00:03 2015 UTC.  The chair is pravins. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
06:00:03 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
06:00:07 <pravins> #meetingname i18n
06:00:07 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'i18n'
06:00:12 <pravins> #topic agenda and roll call
06:00:15 <pravins> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N/Meetings/2015-07-08
06:00:18 <pravins> hi all
06:01:15 <pravins> who else available for meeting today?
06:01:35 <epico> hi
06:01:40 <fujiwarat> hi
06:01:40 <ueno> hi
06:01:42 <tagoh_> hi
06:02:11 <pravins> hi epico fujiwarat ueno tagoh_ :)
06:02:19 <pravins> lets start while other are joining
06:02:21 <paragan> hi
06:02:26 <pravins> #topic Upcoming schedule
06:02:26 <pravins> #info 2015-07-14    Branch Fedora 23 from Rawhide (Rawhide becomes future F24)
06:02:26 <pravins> #info 2015-07-28    Alpha Freeze (*)
06:02:26 <pravins> #info 2015-07-28   Software String Freeze
06:02:26 <pravins> #info 2015-07-28   Change Checkpoint: Completion deadline (testable)
06:02:27 <pravins> #info 2015-07-28   Bodhi activation point
06:02:29 <pravins> #info 2015-08-11   Alpha Release
06:02:49 <juhp> hi
06:02:57 <pravins> just 20 days before Alpha freeze.
06:03:02 <pravins> hi paragan juhp :)
06:03:18 <pravins> i am hoping we will have quick meeting today.
06:03:20 <pravins> #topic New topics
06:03:25 <pravins> #info #43: G11N FAD in 2015 (pravins)
06:03:29 <pravins> #link https://fedorahosted.org/i18n/ticket/43
06:03:59 <pravins> I have dropped an email to Fedora council but unfortunately no one replied yet.
06:04:18 <juhp> thanks
06:04:43 <pravins> will ping them tomorrow, if no response yet.
06:04:55 <pravins> #action pravins to ping Council if does not get any reply.
06:05:08 <pravins> any other question for G11N FAD?
06:05:41 <juhp> perhaps you could link to the mail in the ticket?
06:05:52 <pravins> ohh yeah.
06:06:25 <juhp> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/council-discuss/2015-July/013480.html
06:06:29 <juhp> ah this
06:06:43 <pravins> yes
06:07:21 <pravins> lets move to next and major item for today meeting.
06:07:41 <pravins> #info #50: Feature/Change planning for Fedora 23
06:07:57 <pravins> lets quickly go through our proposed Changes and see if there is any blocker.
06:08:06 <pravins> 1. Glibc locale subpackaging https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Glibc_locale_sub-packaging  - mfabian
06:08:15 <pravins> any blocker for this?
06:08:39 <pravins> 2. 2. IBus Libzhuyin https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/ibus-libzhuyin - epico
06:09:48 <epico> comps-f23.xml updated.
06:09:58 <mfabian> Hi!
06:10:17 <mfabian> I am still not sure how to do the locale subpackginag.
06:10:30 <pravins> epico: nice :) if its 100% complete, then do update page.
06:10:35 <mfabian> I tested a bit the performance of using locale-archive versus individual folders.
06:10:42 <epico> sure
06:11:06 <mfabian> The difference seems to be quited big, folders are considerably slower.
06:11:19 <mfabian> To bad, folders would have made the split easier.
06:11:20 <pravins> looks This time PM miss to link wrangler bugs to Change proposals :)
06:12:19 <juhp> mfabian, aha
06:12:40 <juhp> I see :-|
06:12:52 <juhp> mfabian, so there is a big runtime hit?
06:13:14 <paragan> I think once all changes are approved, bugs will be created per change
06:14:30 <juhp> mfabian, maybe you can follow up to alexl's comment on devel list then too? he was basically asking for folders (dirs) too
06:14:38 <mfabian> I did run small programs which don't do much just print something and exit (for example "date"), for such programs it doubles the run time.
06:14:58 <juhp> mfabian, so mainly startup time I guess?
06:15:09 <mfabian> Yes, I liked Alex comment, I thought he was asking for folder and I liked that idea.
06:15:15 <juhp> yes
06:15:19 <mfabian> I think it is startup time only.
06:15:43 <mfabian> But that is bad enough already, isn’t it? It should not slow down startup time.
06:15:45 <juhp> mfabian, but maybe the glibc people could help with or comment on the startup performance side
06:16:07 <juhp> mfabian, perhaps it can be improved
06:16:23 <pravins> with new locale architecture, may be need to change startup process little bit?
06:16:29 <juhp> nod
06:16:43 <juhp> there maybe be some way to optimise it?
06:16:47 <juhp> may be
06:17:15 <mfabian> Yes, I’ll ask them about the startup time.
06:17:18 <pravins> should we schedule meeting to discuss specifically this change? may be with Glibc Dev
06:17:28 <pravins> we have only 20days remaining for Alpha freeze.
06:17:36 <pravins> and this change must go in with Alpha
06:17:45 <mfabian> pravins: would be nice, to have a meeting to discuss that in detail.
06:18:50 <pravins> what should be time and date?
06:19:00 <epico> individual folders may use less mmap memory area?
06:19:16 <mfabian> epico: Yes, but does that matter?
06:19:41 <epico> mfabian: maybe not, just a question. :)
06:19:48 <mfabian> If one mmaps a 103MB locale-archive file and then only uses one locale out of it, that is not wasteful as far as I know.
06:21:40 <pravins> #action pravins and mfabian to plan meeting for discussing issues with locale subpacking with interested people. Need to prepare agenda for same.
06:21:57 <pravins> next one.
06:22:00 <pravins> 3. IBus 1.5.11 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/IBus1.5.11  - fujiwarat
06:22:03 <mfabian> One argument against the Debian/Ubuntu way of generating the locales (I.e. not packaging the binary locales) was that it is very slow. And one would have to do it again with every glibc update because one doesn’t know whether anything affecting the locales has changed.
06:23:03 <mfabian> But actually there is a /var/lib/belocs folder in Ubuntu which contains some files with dependencies and checksums to figure out whether generating locales again or not is really necessary.
06:23:25 <mfabian> So one could do it that the generation is only done when something really changed.
06:23:34 <pravins> Thanks fujiwarat for adding images :)
06:23:43 <fujiwarat> :)
06:24:32 <pravins> mfabian: we also got one query during juhp pune visit. i.e. if someone add custom locales locally, they get vanish after upgrade.
06:25:35 <pravins> last change
06:25:36 <pravins> 4. Unicode 8.0 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Unicode_8.0  - Pravin
06:25:57 <mfabian> Yes, that needs to be fixed. Currently I think one can use the workaround to install the custom locale as a folder in /usr/lib/locale/
06:26:39 <pravins> yes
06:27:11 <pravins> presently issue with updating ICU 56.1 for Fedora 23.
06:27:23 <juhp> mfabian, aha
06:27:24 <juhp> pravins, right - locale folders could also solve that I feel
06:27:33 <pravins> I was talking with erack
06:27:50 <pravins> Upstream ICU release 56.1 happening on 2015-10-07 and Fedora 23 Final freeze 2015-10-13
06:27:53 <juhp> mfabian, aha
06:28:03 <pravins> so just one week.
06:28:20 <juhp> guess it won't make it
06:28:29 <pravins> yeah.
06:28:37 <pravins> ICU 56.1 release candidate going to be available on  2015-09-23
06:28:51 <paragan> we should not update soname bumps or even any library change in later phases of Fedora
06:29:10 <paragan> such changes are welcome to happen by Alpha freeze only
06:29:16 <mfabian> juhp: folders make it much easier and nicer, but we can probably not accept a slowdown. One can combine folders with locale-archive though, i.e. install your own custom locale as a folder, then it won't get overwritten when locale-archive is updated. That only works if your custom locale does not have an identical name to one of the locales in locale-archive though.
06:29:25 <pravins> paragan: yeah.
06:29:26 <juhp> pravins, the version freeze is really at beta
06:29:32 <juhp> paragan, right
06:29:33 <paragan> that is why we have side tag builds in release schedules
06:29:56 <pravins> May be we should reduce scope of Change proposal.
06:30:05 <juhp> mfabian, hopefully the glibc guys can help
06:30:19 <juhp> pravins, probably
06:30:45 <mfabian> So one could add a ja_JP.SJIS locale as a folder but one could not override a ja_JP.SJIS locale if it is already in locale-archive by adding a ja_JP.SJIS folder.
06:30:55 <pravins> mfabian: thanks, i saw you submitted patch for Unicode 8.0 update.  :)
06:31:08 <juhp> mfabian, ok good
06:31:26 <mfabian> Yes, that  patch is done, I hope somebody finally reviews it, it was ignored so far.
06:32:14 <pravins> yeah, thats problem with glibc upstream, specifically localedata changes :(
06:33:02 <pravins> i have added Libunistring to change proposal now.
06:33:13 <juhp> good
06:33:20 <mfabian> One can still override a locale which is in locale-archive by using the LOCPATH environment variable to point to a folder where the custom locale is, but then locale-archive is not used at all any more. That means the folder where LOCPATH points to needs to have all needed locales,not only the locale one wanted to customize.
06:33:31 <pravins> what is release schedule for glibc?
06:34:58 <juhp> ok
06:35:10 <pravins> need to check its release schedule for this change proposal.
06:35:53 <pravins> i will again work on it this week.
06:36:05 <pravins> #info #52: Fedora 23 Test day planning
06:36:23 <pravins> L10n proposed 18th Aug as a Test day.
06:36:46 <juhp> I guess f23 will get 2.22?
06:37:46 <pravins> yeah, its 3 month release cycle.
06:37:52 <juhp> ok
06:38:22 <pravins> not sure :( not getting correct schedule page.
06:38:29 <juhp> (in worst case can punt to f24:)
06:38:35 <pravins> We have to discuss for date for test day and action items for it.
06:38:54 <pravins> may be tagoh_ and Satya can guide for this.
06:39:22 <Satya> sure
06:39:42 <tagoh_> if we want to test, including translations, maybe better after translation deadline and before beta release?
06:39:46 <pravins> i think we should have date just near to l10n test day, may be we can advertise it as language testing week or something :)
06:40:17 <Satya> l10n test day date is finalized on 18th Aug, right? we need to finalize on i18n test day
06:40:32 <pravins> ohh, i missed that point. agree with tagoh_
06:40:36 <tagoh_> 1st Sep would be a candidate.
06:40:47 <pravins> Satya: yes.
06:41:24 <Satya> yep
06:42:41 <pravins> with 1st sept we can get 7 days to fix important bugs as Beta freeze is on 8th Sept
06:43:36 <juhp> hm
06:43:57 <juhp> okay maybe it is not bad
06:44:02 <pravins> yes.
06:44:27 <juhp> assuming things aren't too broken ;) :)
06:44:34 <pravins> :)
06:44:54 <pravins> If no other suggestion, lets go with 2015-09-01
06:45:09 <juhp> is wayland desktop default now in rawhide?
06:45:12 <tagoh_> and good as long as we have enough resources on testing immediately
06:45:17 * juhp should probably know...
06:45:30 <Satya> 1st sept is ok.
06:45:38 <paragan> +1 for 1st Sep
06:45:58 <juhp> +1
06:46:03 <tagoh_> though it would be welcome to get more feedback lately as always
06:46:23 <pravins> #agreed 2015-09-01 for i18n test day.
06:46:44 <pravins> tagoh_: hopefully with g11n initiative we can get more resources for Fedora testing :)
06:47:25 <tagoh_> okay, will open a ticket for that on fedora-qa
06:47:44 <tagoh_> pravins: yes
06:47:53 <pravins> also is there any quick action item for test day?
06:48:16 <tagoh_> we may want to review test cases again
06:48:46 <pravins> Sure.
06:49:09 <tagoh_> need feedbacks on the previous test cases also. like if we should keep it for test cases or drop and so on.
06:50:01 <Satya> yep, need some review and feedback to keep the test cases relevant to the current release
06:50:18 <Satya> we will do this part.
06:50:20 <pravins> I think good to have some dedicated meeting specifically to work on test cases.
06:50:37 <pravins> Lets do it in LAst week of July or First week of Aug.
06:50:42 <Satya> yep, but before that we need to review it at a glance at least.
06:50:50 <pravins> This month need to complete Changes first :)
06:50:58 <Satya> 1st week of aug is ok
06:51:17 <pravins> Satya: sure.
06:51:50 <pravins> Thats all we have for today :)
06:51:58 <pravins> #topic Open Floor
06:52:08 <pravins> Our Magazine post is still pending. Ryan Lerch was here at FUDCon Pune. He said we should add few more details regarding what is IBus etc so everyone can understand it. He is away for last one week :(
06:52:33 <pravins> #action pravins to ping RyanLerch for working on Magazine post.
06:53:04 <pravins> juhp: can we close Workstation task list ticket?
06:53:05 <pravins> https://fedorahosted.org/i18n/ticket/51
06:53:19 <pravins> We have gone through this during Change proposal planning.
06:53:50 <pravins> Last week saw number of FTBFS bugs :)
06:55:28 <juhp> let me see
06:55:38 <pravins> sure.
06:55:56 <pravins> Did we missed any topic?
06:56:44 <juhp> paragan, I think langpack installation could also be added to the Workstation Tasks list?
06:57:39 <paragan> yes that can be added
06:57:46 <juhp> okay
06:58:27 <pravins> thanks juhp :)
06:58:34 <pravins> if nothing more lets close meeting in couple of meeting.
06:59:35 <juhp> paragan, do you want to own that?
07:00:46 <paragan> okay
07:01:06 <juhp> but I am not sure if dnf-langpacks is enough...
07:01:21 <juhp> for Live etc
07:01:48 <paragan> I don't think for Live iso Workstation people are interested for langpacks
07:02:06 <juhp> paragan, right but post-install
07:02:37 <paragan> yeah that is possible in gnome-initial-setup
07:02:38 <juhp> personally I wish LO was not on the live image though I guess it can be useful in a pinch
07:03:10 <juhp> paragan, yeah for gnome
07:03:48 <paragan> we need to write a module for gnome-initial-setup
07:04:03 <pravins> i think lets close the meeting for now and continue discussion on #fedora-g11n
07:04:07 <paragan> not sure how if we can use again packagekit api in gnome-initial-setup
07:04:24 <paragan> okay
07:04:45 <pravins> Thanks everyone for meeting :)
07:04:49 <pravins> #endmeeting