14:01:02 <randomuser> #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
14:01:02 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Feb 23 14:01:02 2015 UTC.  The chair is randomuser. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:01:02 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:01:02 <randomuser> #meetingname Fedora Docs
14:01:02 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_docs'
14:01:02 <randomuser> #topic Roll Call
14:01:18 * apatel_ is here
14:01:30 * bexelbie is here
14:01:36 * rkratky here
14:02:14 * pbokoc 
14:02:18 <pkovar> /me is here
14:04:00 * smccann_ is here
14:04:04 * randomuser tops off his coffee
14:04:38 <bara_> \me says hi to all
14:05:57 <randomuser> okay, let's get into it
14:06:02 <randomuser> #topic New Writers
14:06:10 <randomuser> any new writers here to check in?
14:06:37 <apatel_> I want to update the storage administration guide
14:06:54 * smccann_ struggling w/ virt-getting started guide
14:06:57 <apatel_> It hasnt been updated since F14
14:07:00 <randomuser> apatel_, +2000
14:07:00 * jsmith joins a bit late
14:08:07 * apatel_ will not be able to attend meetings often because of school
14:08:17 <randomuser> apatel_, we're often around in #fedora-docs, especially thursdays for office hours.  Ping whenever you need help
14:09:03 <apatel_> I'll be sure to drop by that channel
14:09:13 <randomuser> great!
14:09:30 <randomuser> #topic Publishing
14:09:48 <randomuser> bexelbie wrote a very thought provoking email on this topic
14:10:19 <randomuser> ... one I keep meaning to sit down and reply to
14:10:19 <pbokoc> yeah, I haven't had the time to read it yet
14:10:31 <bexelbie> the url for it is: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/docs/2015-February/016037.html
14:10:31 * jsmith hasn't caught up on email yet :-(
14:11:08 <bexelbie> would there be a format that works better for us than that email?
14:11:31 <randomuser> jhradilek also made a good point during a recent office hours, which I'll crudely paraphrase:  our tooling is oriented towards providing docs that aren't targeted at our users
14:11:38 <bexelbie> it is relatively short.  I have deliberately not talked about workflow or tools.  I feel that we need to know what our goals are before we try to solve problems further down the stack.
14:12:03 <randomuser> tbh, bexelbie, I'm preoccuped with tools :P
14:12:10 <bexelbie> I tend to agree that our docs are not targeting the right personas
14:12:20 <bexelbie> I don’t think the tools force us to do a certain kind of writing
14:12:38 <bexelbie> I deliberately don’t talk about personas
14:12:50 * randomuser nods
14:12:53 <bexelbie> they are external to the ideas of goals-workflow-tooling for writing as a process, imho
14:12:59 <bexelbie> they are SUPER CRITICAL though
14:13:13 <bexelbie> and I think we need to look to the marketing and .next groups for guidance there
14:13:47 <randomuser> it is a little concerning that most of the training we do for new folks is not on actual writing, but simply tooling and workflow
14:14:18 <bexelbie> good point
14:14:36 <bexelbie> we need to talk about personas and how we write .. not just literaly _how_ we write :)
14:14:44 * apatel_ feels as though you are told to go fix, after given the tools, "no real" guidance
14:15:36 <randomuser> there's some truth there, apatel_ - we're around for questions, but if you don't know what to ask...
14:16:01 <bexelbie> it sounds like we definitely want to clean up the guidance around the voice and target for writing .. does someone want to spear head that?
14:16:05 <apatel_> I agree, it is not a problem for me, but for others ..
14:16:43 <randomuser> this falls back to the "revamp docs wiki pages" business we keep not doing
14:17:01 <bexelbie> it is hard to revamp our wiki pages if we don’t know what we want to say :)
14:17:04 <randomuser> heh
14:17:24 <randomuser> I'll take some on, but I don't want to be the only one
14:17:30 <bexelbie> do we want to discuss personas today? do we want to discuss my email?
14:18:25 <randomuser> we might want to continue the mail on the list - I agreed with most, but saw some points where the theory conflicted with the capabilities of the tooling I'm trying to build
14:18:42 <bexelbie> randomuser, perhaps your tooling should bend to the goals :)
14:18:50 * bexelbie also has lots of ideas about tooling too
14:18:56 <randomuser> sure, that's always a possibility
14:19:23 <randomuser> I don't want to get dragged into that here, at the moment, but if you wanted to talk about personas, go for it
14:19:44 * bexelbie was prepared to talk about the email ...
14:19:46 <randomuser> I'm having to infer your intent on that, it's not a very familiar term in this context for me
14:20:02 <bexelbie> it sounds like we are going to do the email convo on email … so I’ll take a hack at personas
14:20:10 <bexelbie> by persona i mean - who are we writing for
14:20:39 <randomuser> yeah, sorry, I don't want to be the only other one in the meeting to have read the mail :P
14:20:39 <bexelbie> something like: Anish is a system administrator who has used linux/unix for a few years and plans to run several fedora instances in a cloud infrastructure
14:21:22 <bexelbie> or Jane is a desktop computer user who wants to run graphical programs in a gnome environment and build and maintain her system
14:21:42 <bexelbie> She has installed linux one time with help but has spent most of her career working on mac or windows platforms
14:21:43 * randomuser nods
14:21:53 <jsmith> Makes sense...
14:22:23 <randomuser> bexelbie, in implementation terms, I could envision a guided path through docs for a given persona
14:22:29 <apatel_> basically we need to gear it towards categories of people
14:22:37 <bexelbie> you can also write it around stories.  An example is here: https://github.com/cockpit-project/cockpit/wiki/Atomic:-Kubernetes-dashboard
14:22:48 <lnovich> bexelbie it doesn't matter if you call it the "voice" of the manual or the "audience" or the "persona" either way we are missing our audience with our current documents
14:22:50 <bexelbie> apatel, randomuser yes
14:22:58 <bexelbie> exactly
14:23:21 <bexelbie> I believe jhradilek’s point is that we have docs that focus on a specific kind of enterprise user … and that user is not our most common user in fedora
14:23:27 <randomuser> I've read stickster tossing around the 'stories' concept quite a bit in recent months
14:23:37 <lnovich> that is exactly his point
14:23:40 <randomuser> if you ever encounter things from his reading list, btw, jump on it
14:23:47 <bexelbie> I believe we should be able to ask the marketing group for guidance on who they target
14:23:49 <lnovich> we have spoken about it on many occasions
14:23:54 <bexelbie> and the server, cloud, etc. groups for who they target
14:24:27 <bexelbie> how do we want to go about collecting the potential stories/personas we want to write too?
14:24:33 <bexelbie> then we can pick the ones we will prioritize
14:24:39 <bexelbie> really create them ...
14:24:40 <smccann_> what about the user help channels, can we infer some user levels based on the questions asked?
14:24:40 <randomuser> we *have* spoken about it on many occasions, it's making it actionable that needs work
14:25:00 <bexelbie> that is another good source smccann
14:25:00 <lnovich> maybe this is something we can bang out together at a FAD?
14:25:19 <bexelbie> I think we can bang it out at a FAD, but we need the inputs of the other teams too
14:25:28 <bexelbie> we have to be informed by their target audiences, imho
14:25:36 <randomuser> lnovich, I'd rather have a list of things, and bang out the actual content at a fad
14:25:47 <lnovich> agreed
14:26:47 <lnovich> ok so bex maybe you can reach out to the community manager for Fedora?
14:27:00 <randomuser> how about this for an easy start: we look at the stories presented in each product working group's requirements documents, and itemize out what we want to cover for them
14:27:32 <smccann_> sounds good
14:27:50 <bexelbie> sounds like we have two actions
14:27:51 * apatel_ nods
14:27:59 <pkovar> randomuser: that sounds like a really good start, yes
14:28:00 <lnovich> ok can we put this on a wiki page or something somewhere?
14:28:00 <bexelbie> read the products of the other teams and harvest
14:28:04 <bexelbie> reach out to the community manager
14:28:34 <bexelbie> ideally the community manager can point us to the documented pieces and it becomes an input to our doc harvest wiki
14:28:52 <randomuser> #action everyone elaborate on personas and appropriate documentation at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_Focus
14:29:22 <randomuser> the documented pieces - if we're talking about the working groups' user stories - are fairly discoverable
14:29:40 <bexelbie> cool, let’s get those listed on those pages and read by someone :)
14:29:44 <lnovich> so one for desktop one for server one for cloud?
14:30:07 <randomuser> #action randomuser to draft server list
14:30:13 <pkovar> one for each WG, yes
14:30:40 <pkovar> /me will work on an env and stack list
14:31:00 <randomuser> #action pkovar to add env-and-stacks list
14:31:42 <smccann_> I can give it a shot for workstation. might need help finding the user stories
14:31:57 <lnovich> although each WG has a general persona there are still some general personas that will reach across all three
14:32:17 <randomuser> lnovich, want to take the general task, then?
14:32:26 <lnovich> sure
14:32:39 <randomuser> #action lnovich to write general user list
14:33:05 <pkovar> smccann_: iirc they are well covered in the workstation WG PRD
14:33:08 <bexelbie> the marketing group wiki says they worked on a user stories project, however the wiki page is non-existant
14:33:20 <lnovich> nice
14:33:31 <bexelbie> lnovich, are you going to take that gropu as part of the general list?
14:33:47 <lnovich> groupu?
14:33:52 <bexelbie> group
14:34:00 <bexelbie> marketing group
14:34:12 <lnovich> ah marketing = wasn't the direction i was going towards
14:34:21 <bexelbie> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing- see projects
14:34:23 <bexelbie> ok
14:34:37 <bexelbie> #action bexelbie will reach out to Marketing about their userstores
14:34:47 <bexelbie> stories … sigh the keys are not where they are supposed to be today
14:34:55 <lnovich> what i had in mind is the typical kind of users - the technical - the noob - etc...
14:35:06 <bexelbie> yep
14:35:34 <lnovich> which by the way I just wrote up for my presentation at the Israel technical writers con.
14:35:56 <randomuser> nice, you've got a head start!
14:36:07 <lnovich> and i put in a pitch for everyone to join Fedora docs
14:36:12 <randomuser> who can take action on cloud?
14:36:14 <bexelbie> just make them fedora specific lnovich ;)
14:36:32 <lnovich> ok
14:37:05 * lnovich ducks
14:38:45 <randomuser> #info it would be great if someone could develop cloud personas
14:39:02 <bexelbie> ztamV7LQfeMQ
14:39:09 <randomuser> We have a few actionable items here - enough to move on?
14:39:16 <bexelbie> the keys really are in the wrong place
14:39:28 <lnovich> maybe once we get the first few done, we can look at cloud?
14:40:17 <randomuser> sounds good
14:40:23 <randomuser> #info Release Notes
14:40:28 <randomuser> #undo
14:40:28 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: INFO by randomuser at 14:40:23 : Release Notes
14:40:41 <randomuser> #Topic Release Notes & Schedule
14:40:49 <randomuser> #link https://fedorapeople.org/groups/schedule/f-22/f-22-docs-tree-tasks.html
14:41:08 <randomuser> while we're talking about personas and publishing, there are also release notes to be written
14:41:20 <lnovich> nice one randomuser!
14:41:24 <randomuser> so far, there has been very little covered
14:41:38 <randomuser> #help claim your beats!
14:41:48 <lnovich> when are they due?
14:41:54 <randomuser> immediately
14:42:17 <randomuser> so far, only bcotton and sclark have confirmed their beats
14:42:23 <randomuser> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Documentation_beats?rd=Docs/Beats
14:42:49 <randomuser> according to the schedule, we should have alpha RNs mostly drafted by now
14:43:20 <randomuser> It would be great if everyone would tackle the system contained changes this week, at least
14:43:45 <lnovich> i can tackle the virtualization section - but this week will be tough
14:44:00 <randomuser> #info to take ownership of writing about a change, assign yourself as the "Docs Contact" on the change tracking bug
14:44:22 <randomuser> that will ensure we don't overlap
14:45:04 <randomuser> lnovich, for now, maybe just skim over the changes for things of interest to you, and work on the broader virt beat later?
14:45:35 <pbokoc> yeah, it's pretty early in the release cycle to write everything, anyway
14:46:06 <lnovich> where is that tracker bug?
14:46:21 <randomuser> lnovich, it will be linked from the wiki page about the change
14:46:23 <randomuser> hang on
14:46:34 <randomuser> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/22/ChangeSet#Fedora_22_Accepted_System_Wide_Changes_Proposals
14:46:40 <randomuser> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/22/ChangeSet#Fedora_22_Accepted_System_Wide_Changes_Proposals
14:47:40 <randomuser> I have one change in there, and I think I'd prefer that someone else write about it
14:47:48 <lnovich> Are you kidding - yum is out?
14:47:54 <randomuser> yum is OUT!
14:48:07 * lnovich hits head on the wall
14:48:18 <randomuser> IIRC this was discussed on the list
14:48:30 <randomuser> the docs list, specifically, and lots of others
14:48:36 <lnovich> i have been off radar for a while
14:48:43 <pbokoc> yeah, but for most books the change should be trivial, it's just replacing "yum install" etc. with "dnf install"
14:49:05 <pbokoc> the only guide heavily affected shoud be the sysadmin guide
14:50:19 <randomuser> #info https://fedorapeople.org/groups/schedule/f-22/ has calendar files you can import to your favorite scheduling solution to track the release schedule
14:50:59 <randomuser> I realize it's early to be harping on this stuff, but it's better to be early than scramble at the end
14:51:02 <lnovich> nice - thanks!
14:51:35 <randomuser> lnovich, buy a beer for jreznik :)
14:51:53 <lnovich> where is jreznik located
14:52:03 <randomuser> Brno
14:52:15 <lnovich> I can do that the week of March 15
14:52:25 * lnovich will be in Brno
14:52:36 * randomuser chuckles
14:52:48 * jreznik is reading
14:52:57 <randomuser> ok, we've hit on this hard enough for now
14:53:10 <randomuser> I'm going to skip guides due to time
14:53:22 <randomuser> #topic Open Floor Discussion
14:53:53 <randomuser> apatel_, when would be a good timeframe for you to sit down in #fedora-docs and talk about tackling the storage administration guide?
14:54:05 <randomuser> I'd like to help you get started
14:54:14 <jreznik> lnovich: well, last time we met here I enjoyed candle you brought here "_
14:54:27 * jreznik is more sweet lover than beer :)
14:54:36 <apatel_> anytime after 3 pm EST
14:54:52 <lnovich> candle? I think you mean candy
14:54:56 <apatel_> so 20:00 UTC
14:55:08 <jreznik> lnovich: candy, sorry :D
14:56:09 <randomuser> apatel_, how would, say, 19:30 EST work today?
14:56:24 <apatel_> sure
14:56:48 <randomuser> okay, it's a date
14:56:57 <apatel_> my current plan is to run through the entire guide, follow all of the steps and see which ones fail
14:57:14 <apatel_> the ones that fail, fix them, and then move on to documenting new featuers
14:57:18 <apatel_> *features
14:57:22 <randomuser> I haven't looked at it in a while, I'll try to do that to prepare
14:57:42 <apatel_> I have to look at it too :|
14:58:13 <bexelbie> I would encourage everyone to please read and respond to my email - rip it to shreds if you want, but I think the discussion is useful
14:58:22 * apatel_ nods
14:58:51 <randomuser> extremely useful.  If I haven't said it yet, thanks for keeping that discussion alive and interesting, bexelbie
14:59:25 <bexelbie> my use of the word interesting is often made fun of .. now I wonder about your use :P
14:59:41 <randomuser> it varies :P
14:59:59 * bexelbie has been trying to explain those nuances to a non-native non-US speaker for a while now … ‘)
15:00:02 <randomuser> in this context, more "engaging" than "may you live in interesting times..."
15:00:07 <apatel_> I have to return to class :P
15:00:18 * apatel_ waves goodbye
15:00:20 <randomuser> I have to go to $DAYJOB and the hour is up
15:00:22 <randomuser> thanks, all
15:00:25 <randomuser> #endmeeting