15:02:09 <rdieter> #startmeeting kde-sig
15:02:09 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Dec  2 15:02:09 2014 UTC.  The chair is rdieter. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:02:09 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:02:12 <rdieter> #meetingname kde-sig
15:02:12 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'kde-sig'
15:02:18 <rdieter> #topic roll call
15:02:21 <Kevin_Kofler> Present.
15:02:28 <rdieter> hello, friendly kde-sig meeting, who's present today?
15:03:02 <dvratil> hi
15:03:27 * jgrulich is present
15:03:46 <rdieter> than: ping
15:03:58 <than> present
15:04:37 <rdieter> #info rdieter Kevin_Kofler dvratil jgrulich than present
15:04:42 <rdieter> #chair Kevin_Kofler dvratil jgrulich than
15:04:42 <zodbot> Current chairs: Kevin_Kofler dvratil jgrulich rdieter than
15:04:59 <rdieter> #topic agenda
15:05:25 <rdieter> couldn't come up with any super important topics, but figured we could at least give some status updates today
15:05:35 <rdieter> for current work/projects, etc...
15:05:56 <rdieter> anything else?
15:06:26 <Kevin_Kofler> One thing we could discuss is how to get Fedora KDE at users, given how the mass production is apparently back to being GNOME-only, grrr!
15:07:00 <rdieter> ok, can discuss that at the end
15:07:14 <rdieter> #topic status updates
15:07:26 <Kevin_Kofler> For the status updates, as I said on #fedora-kde, I'd like one for the PackageKit-hif stuff, but we need Helio for that.
15:07:27 <rdieter> for me, I'm working on updating the copr/qt5 repo to qt-5.4.0-rc
15:07:50 <rdieter> copr/kde4 repo (for el7) is slowly getting kde-4.14.3 too
15:09:05 <rdieter> now that epel-release includes an %{epel} macro, I've been merging optional feature enablement using that into fedora's packaging
15:09:52 <rdieter> any plasma5 releated news/updates ?
15:09:59 <pino|work> 'lo
15:10:10 <rdieter> #info pino|work present
15:10:12 <rdieter> howdy
15:10:17 <dvratil> nothing new from, KF5 and Plasma 5.1.2 will be tagged on Sunday, so I'll be updating next week...jgrulich did some P5 package reviews, but I didn't have time to get to them yet - I plan to look into them later this week
15:10:27 <dvratil> *from me :)
15:11:53 <Kevin_Kofler> I can also give a status update of what I did.
15:12:03 <jgrulich> I did some P5 package reviews and with ltinkl we ported print-manager to KF5, so we can try to package it so you can test it
15:13:49 <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: please do :)
15:14:32 <rdieter> jgrulich: yes, though I suppose it needs to wait for plasma5 to land first
15:14:37 <Kevin_Kofler> I worked on upstream Calamares to fix some of the issues, e.g., I have a work branch where display manager setup is cleaned up now, so Calamares should be able to set up autologin for any display manager that's installed, not just SDDM. (There was code for that, but it had issues preventing it from being enabled.) But I haven't tested that branch yet, which is why it isn't merged yet.
15:14:44 * jreznik is around
15:14:54 <rdieter> #info jreznik present
15:15:33 <Kevin_Kofler> I also started packaging UFW, with the goal of packaging ufw-kde (= kcm_ufw), to have a KDE firewall setup tool (but it'll require ufw to be enabled instead of firewalld).
15:16:00 <Kevin_Kofler> I'm planning to ship all these on my Kannolo remix.
15:16:27 <Kevin_Kofler> Whether we'll ever ship them on Fedora KDE stuff, I don't know, right now I just want to have them packaged.
15:17:20 <Kevin_Kofler> UFW is something of a PITA to package, as usual for stuff where Ubuntu is upstream, but I have it mostly nailed, I just need to get the systemd service and the RPM scriptlets right so it just works.
15:18:02 <rdieter> oh, one fyi, looks like our kwebkitpart, kde-runtime security updates (with freeze exception) likely will not get pushed prior to f21 release, and will land as 0-day updates instead.  not sure exactly how/why they fell through the cracks
15:18:11 <Kevin_Kofler> (UFW = Uncomplicated FireWall, the firewall solution that comes from Ubuntu and has been adopted by the pure-KDE distros because of ufw-kde, which was obviously developed by Kubuntu folks.)
15:18:50 <Kevin_Kofler> rdieter: Did they get closed due to F20 updates, maybe?
15:19:06 <Kevin_Kofler> The blocker/FE tracking doesn't track closed bugs.
15:19:08 <rdieter> one did, the other not
15:19:12 <Kevin_Kofler> You need to make sure they stay open.
15:19:14 <rdieter> I reopened the closed one
15:19:37 <Kevin_Kofler> I'm also somewhat annoyed at the way blockers are managed.
15:19:46 <rdieter> than apparently had set autoclose for the kde-runtime/f20 one
15:20:32 <rdieter> and/or autokarma, doesnt matter much now
15:21:28 <Kevin_Kofler> Things that are important to spin maintainers fall through the cracks way too often. Sometimes, they don't even get accepted as blockers because they don't match the criteria (like that Apper PackageKit-hif issue which IMHO should have been a blocker), sometimes freeze exceptions get missed even though the update is available on time, etc.
15:22:01 <Kevin_Kofler> IMHO, we shouldn't have criteria, the call should be the spin maintainers' judgement call.
15:22:18 <rdieter> not matching criteria is valid imo
15:22:29 <rdieter> (so I disagree with you on that)
15:22:32 <Kevin_Kofler> It's a bit like the karma thing. Strict criteria will never do the right thing in all cases, it should really be a case-by-case decision by the maintainer (in this case, the spin maintainer).
15:22:55 <rdieter> specific criteria for release blockers is very important
15:23:40 <Kevin_Kofler> If the spin maintainers are not comfortable with shipping something, it should not be shipped, and FESCo should ensure that it gets addressed (which I also haven't seen happening for the PackageKit stuff).
15:24:17 <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: no one asked fesco to look at PackageKit
15:24:18 <heliocastro> sorry for late arrival
15:24:19 <Kevin_Kofler> (IMHO, it should have been, either the PackageKit maintainer implements the needed stuff in the hif backend or it gets reverted.)
15:24:36 <heliocastro> Ok, arrived in right time
15:24:44 <rdieter> heliocastro: hi
15:24:49 <rdieter> #info heliocastro present
15:25:04 <Kevin_Kofler> heliocastro: Right, we'd like a status update from you on the PackageKit-hif stuff.
15:25:05 <rdieter> heliocastro: could you give a status update on PackageKit/apper work?
15:25:11 <rdieter> jinx
15:25:23 <Kevin_Kofler> It's not going to make the F21 release anymore, but the sooner we have it in updates, the better!
15:25:25 <heliocastro> answer is, i want our bless to go with the hack version, as hughsie not answerd the email
15:25:26 * mclasen_ hears shade of the debian gr: forcing package maintainers to do stuff...
15:25:49 <heliocastro> mclasen_: I asked for it
15:26:17 <Kevin_Kofler> heliocastro: What is the "hack version"?
15:26:31 <heliocastro> If is ok to go with forced rescan repo ( we discussed other day )
15:26:51 <heliocastro> Than is fine, i patch libhif and add the extra things to the patch on packagekit-hif
15:27:06 <Kevin_Kofler> That the user has to click on refresh once after upgrading? That's not a problem.
15:27:15 <heliocastro> Ok, still is a hack
15:27:30 <heliocastro> But if everyone is fine with this solution, then i setup
15:27:32 <Kevin_Kofler> A hack would be to automatically enforce the refresh somehow. :-)
15:27:48 <Kevin_Kofler> It can be done, but not sure it's worth it.
15:28:10 <Kevin_Kofler> I think getting the data the next time the metadata is refreshed (requiring a one-time manual refresh) is actually the cleanest solution.
15:29:15 <heliocastro> so, i have a go ?
15:29:36 <rdieter> heliocastro: I think so, yes
15:29:36 <heliocastro> :q
15:29:47 <heliocastro> Ok, right. Thanks
15:31:34 <heliocastro> Thias was the final bits
15:31:42 <heliocastro> Kevin_Kofler: And you will be able to commit it ?
15:34:02 <Kevin_Kofler> Yes, in principle I can. I hope that hughsie won't kill me for it. ;-)
15:34:17 <Kevin_Kofler> I'd like his OK, but if he doesn't reply… :-(
15:34:40 <mclasen_> he says: 'heliocastro's patch needs a lot of work'
15:34:47 <rdieter> how about contact him one more time, with deadline
15:34:50 <mclasen_> you could just ask yourself, too....
15:35:11 * mclasen_ doesn't like to play the middle man
15:35:32 <rdieter> mclasen_: you shouldn't have to, hughsie could just reply to emails
15:35:54 <rdieter> or we could track it in bugzilla , for public posterity
15:36:02 <Kevin_Kofler> mclasen_: The last time I looked at the patch, I also said it was incomplete.
15:36:13 <heliocastro> even oi said it
15:36:17 <heliocastro> *i
15:36:37 <heliocastro> becuase missing multiple comps groups and the ability to check from libhif the proper source
15:36:40 <Kevin_Kofler> I already told heliocastro that, he said that's because it's WIP.
15:36:57 <heliocastro> Yep, never said was done
15:37:32 * mclasen_ brought the man himself
15:37:34 <hughsie> hey; mclasen_ says there's unhappyness about packagekit-hif
15:37:50 <heliocastro> hughsie: hi
15:38:05 <Kevin_Kofler> As long as the patch doesn't implement all it should, I'm going to send it right back to heliocastro until it does what it should, I fully agree with hughsie there.
15:38:44 <Kevin_Kofler> To make sure we talk about the same thing, the POC I've been shown was missing:
15:38:55 <hughsie> heliocastro, i can add the bits you need to libhif and do a release this week if you want
15:39:01 <Kevin_Kofler> * support for multiple comps files (from different repos)
15:39:15 <Kevin_Kofler> * actual download of those comps files
15:39:33 <Kevin_Kofler> * support for dynamic categories
15:39:43 <Kevin_Kofler> (though that one could be added later, in principle)
15:39:49 <heliocastro> Yep
15:39:57 <Kevin_Kofler> Those are the obvious ones I noticed.
15:40:11 <hughsie> what's a dynamic category?
15:40:21 <hughsie> the download bit should work now
15:40:32 <hughsie> all we need is an accessor to get the file name in libhif
15:40:53 <heliocastro> hughsie: We need a way to get the filename direct from libhif and some way to assure that was downloaded
15:41:27 <Kevin_Kofler> hughsie: The stuff that the yum backend implemented where it'd return a list of the actual comps categories, and the actual comps groups inside of those categories, and allows to query those, as opposed to the "static group" interface where everything's mapped to that PackageKit group enum.
15:41:57 <hughsie> Kevin_Kofler, ahh, okay, PK calls that a "category" search
15:42:02 <Kevin_Kofler> Apper prefers the dynamic API when supported, it's nicer for the user because it's more fine-grained.
15:42:20 <Kevin_Kofler> (but the static "group enum" API can be used as a fallback)
15:42:54 <heliocastro> hughsie: hif_source_check already download the group, but don't store in any place.
15:43:13 <hughsie> heliocastro, i'm just adding it now :)
15:44:07 <heliocastro> hughsie: And we need some funtion that returns the array of available comps group then
15:44:15 <heliocastro> The rest i can finnish my patch
15:44:39 <hughsie> heliocastro, do you want some patch review now, or when you're done?
15:45:03 <hughsie> e.g. exit(255); makes hughsie a very sad man
15:45:53 <heliocastro> hughsie: Not yet. Still using the tmp.xml to test
15:47:36 <heliocastro> But i can do now, as soon you commit your part
15:47:39 <Kevin_Kofler> Calling exit in a library is evil indeed.
15:47:47 <Kevin_Kofler> Even rpmlint will complain about that.
15:47:52 <heliocastro> yep
15:49:25 <hughsie> heliocastro, give me 10 mins
15:49:30 <heliocastro> Thanks
15:50:30 <rdieter> hughsie: thanks for coming, and facilitating things.
15:50:41 <rdieter> mclasen_: and thanks for the hughsie summoning
15:50:50 <rdieter> moving on...
15:50:50 <mclasen_> np
15:50:57 <rdieter> #topic f21 media
15:50:59 <mclasen_> direct communication always a win
15:51:08 <hughsie> feel free to grab me whenever
15:51:22 <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: I think you wanted to discuss this?
15:51:33 <Kevin_Kofler> mclasen_: +1, for once. :-)
15:51:52 <Kevin_Kofler> rdieter: Yes. See:
15:51:56 <Kevin_Kofler> #link https://eischmann.wordpress.com/2014/11/27/getting-ready-for-fedora-21/
15:51:58 <rdieter> not sure there's much we can do at this point
15:52:40 <Kevin_Kofler> So they're killing the Multi-Desktop DVD and producing only GNOME. That really sucks.
15:52:59 <Kevin_Kofler> What Jiři did say is: "But if the KDE SIG comes to us and say: hey, we’d also like to have DVDs for our users, it’s important to us, I think there is no problem to invest in it."
15:53:10 <Southern_Gentlem> KK yeah i have been fighting for the multi
15:53:31 <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: in that context, is "us" ambassadors?
15:54:09 <Kevin_Kofler> In that context, it's the SIG. See the full comment in the link.
15:54:22 <danofsatx-dt> I'm late. did I miss anything?
15:54:33 <Southern_Gentlem> if nothing else i will produce multidesktop with my respins
15:54:46 <rdieter> danofsatx-dt: just did status updates on what folks have been working
15:54:49 <rdieter> working on...
15:54:58 * danofsatx-dt is reading backlog
15:55:10 <rdieter> #info danofsatx-dt present
15:55:12 <Kevin_Kofler> Of course, the problem is that if the Ambassadors only want to promote GNOME, who's going to distribute the KDE images?
15:55:46 <Southern_Gentlem> Kevin_Kofler, no FAMSCO only wants to promote workstation and Server
15:55:47 <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: <nod>, it would be ideal if such a request came from folks actually wanting/needing the media
15:56:02 <Kevin_Kofler> I want them for the Vienna event and I don't care what the Ambassadors say (worst case, I'll be sitting on the chair in front of the Fedora table and handing them out from there ^^), but if it's just me, that won't make demand for mass production. :-(
15:57:04 <Kevin_Kofler> Southern_Gentlem: Workstation == GNOME
15:57:17 * Kevin_Kofler likes to call things by what they actually are.
15:57:34 <rdieter> ""But if the KDE SIG comes to us and say: hey, we’d also like to have DVD" , it's the "us" in that statement I'm wondering about
15:57:42 <rdieter> who do we need to ask exactly?
15:59:20 <rdieter> anyone object to kde-sig formally declaring "hey, we'd also like to have DVD"?
15:59:34 <Southern_Gentlem> so ask famsco since jiri made that offer
15:59:41 <Kevin_Kofler> No objection here.
15:59:48 <rdieter> Southern_Gentlem: so us=famsco ?
16:00:00 <Southern_Gentlem> the way i read it yep
16:00:08 <rdieter> ok
16:00:44 <Southern_Gentlem> in the usa i am pushing to still make some multi-desktop
16:01:10 <rdieter> Southern_Gentlem: thanks
16:01:23 <Southern_Gentlem> excuse North America
16:01:56 <Kevin_Kofler> If you can get it done, and if we don't get KDE ones pressed in Europe, can you mail some (like 100 or 200) Multi-Desktop ones to Vienna? I can pay for the shipping (assuming it won't be exorbitant).
16:03:01 <Southern_Gentlem> i am sure someone will be going that direction that can throw them in their luggage
16:04:18 <rdieter> I can volunteer to be the one to reach out to famsco with our formal request
16:05:19 <Kevin_Kofler> Southern_Gentlem: DevConf 2015 in Brno would be a good place for the handover. But let's see how the situation evolves. If you also lose the fight in the US or if the EMEA folks do end up providing some KDE media, it'll be moot.
16:05:29 <hughsie> heliocastro, does this work for you? http://people.freedesktop.org/~hughsient/temp/0001-Add-hif_source_get_filename_md.patch
16:05:53 <Southern_Gentlem> and enough sigs request the same maybe they will make  the multi-desktop
16:06:12 <rdieter> our hour is about up, any last thoughts?
16:06:42 <Kevin_Kofler> Southern_Gentlem: The only problem is that then they'll be stuck with the Workstation ones they're already producing because nobody will want those. ^^
16:06:52 <heliocastro> hughsie: Work, i just need to get all multiple sources and call function
16:07:03 <heliocastro> hughsie: I'm applying on my code
16:07:32 <danofsatx-dt> I'm +1 to requesting "official" KDE Media
16:07:48 * danofsatx-dt is caught up
16:07:59 <Kevin_Kofler> As I said, I'm also +1 to a formal request for KDE media. (Just to state it clearly.)
16:08:27 <danofsatx-dt> oh, real quick - I haven't dug completely through all the TC's for F21 KDE yet, but I've found no bugs so far. Great work, guys!
16:09:16 <Kevin_Kofler> You haven't found the known Apper issue? ;-)
16:09:34 <Kevin_Kofler> (which is now likely to be resolved only in updates, unfortunately)
16:09:43 <danofsatx-dt> I *said* I hadn't gotten very far yet ;)
16:10:26 <jreznik> if we want KDE media, we need two things - request it from regional contacts and ask for artwork
16:10:41 <danofsatx-dt> I've only gotten through install and base, and just started on the next
16:11:30 <jreznik> ambassadors are happy to distribute it, multidesktop was handy but seems like nobody wanted to produce it this time and the biggest issue was - it never was part of standard releng work -> a lot of troubles and waiting for it
16:13:17 <Kevin_Kofler> Uhm, isn't there some fingerpointing going on there?
16:13:33 <rdieter> jreznik: so *don't* ask famsco?  I'm getting confused
16:13:46 <Kevin_Kofler> Jiři claims the Ambassadors didn't want it anymore because of the new marketing stuff.
16:14:17 <Kevin_Kofler> You claim the Ambassadors wanted it, but nobody wanted to produce it? Who produced it previously?
16:15:02 <jreznik> rdieter: ask famsco/regions to produce it... but yes, there has to be interest from theirs side too
16:15:04 <Kevin_Kofler> Multi-Desktop was the reasonable compromise that made everyone happy.
16:15:26 <Kevin_Kofler> Now the "Product or get lost" attitude brings us back to the old pre-Spins era.
16:15:38 <rdieter> not sure everyone was happy, but it did seem to "minimize unhappiness"
16:15:39 <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: but it even wasn't official Fedora release, begging to build it after GA, it wasn't tested at all etc.
16:15:40 <spot> its not that hard to produce.
16:15:44 * spot wrote a tool to do it.
16:15:45 <Kevin_Kofler> IMHO, the whole "Fedora Next" is a huge step backwards with zero benefits to Fedora.
16:15:56 <Kevin_Kofler> It brought us only a skipped release and a regression of marketing to the stone age.
16:15:57 <Southern_Gentlem> msg Kevin_Kofler i know in the NA we are being pressured by corporate to produce workstation-server
16:16:13 <rdieter> Southern_Gentlem: that's... wierd. :)
16:16:32 <Kevin_Kofler> spot: Right, so IMHO the "nobody wanted to produce it" excuse doesn't make sense at all.
16:16:51 <rdieter> maybe I misread that, workstation and server media, or some hybrid workstation-server thing?
16:16:57 <Kevin_Kofler> jreznik: It was just a multiboot of tested Spins.
16:17:19 <Kevin_Kofler> The only testing it needed was, does the selector work and do the spins boot.
16:17:31 <Kevin_Kofler> It takes a couple minutes to test that, and I'm sure SOMEBODY did that.
16:17:35 <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: no, it wasn't - first, the only blocking were gnome and kde, the rest was always "we hope it works"
16:17:49 <Kevin_Kofler> I did test the Multi-Desktop DVD and it worked. :-)
16:18:17 <Southern_Gentlem> KK when is Viennia?
16:18:47 <Kevin_Kofler> In May, probably shortly before the F22 release. (The timing is always horrible for Fedora. :-( )
16:19:11 <Kevin_Kofler> May 7 to 9 in 2015.
16:20:00 <Kevin_Kofler> This year was the only year where we didn't have to tell people that our media will be outdated in a couple weeks, the only positive effect of the skipped release. ;-)
16:21:22 <Southern_Gentlem> if nothing else talk to spot or Ruth and get 1K made
16:22:23 <Kevin_Kofler> So there's time to get stuff to Vienna, but the F22 production will almost certainly be too late.
16:23:31 <jreznik> for EMEA, it makes sense to get it produced here
16:23:43 <jreznik> it's cheaper, cheaper shipping...
16:24:06 <Kevin_Kofler> It'll be kinda sad if I'll be the only one to hand out KDE or Multi-Desktop media though. :-(
16:25:17 <rdieter> ok, let's wrap up the meeting, continue discussions in #fedora-kde if needed.
16:25:20 <rdieter> thanks everyone!
16:25:22 <rdieter> #endmeeting