06:00:31 <pravins> #startmeeting i18n 06:00:32 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Nov 19 06:00:31 2014 UTC. The chair is pravins. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 06:00:32 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 06:00:37 <pravins> #meetingname i18n 06:00:37 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'i18n' 06:00:42 <pravins> #topic agenda and roll call 06:00:46 <pravins> Hi All 06:00:57 <anish_> Hi 06:01:00 <mfabian> Hi! 06:01:12 <fujiwarat> hi 06:01:20 <pravins> hi anish_ mfabian fujiwarat :) 06:01:35 <shilpa> hi 06:01:49 <epico> hi 06:02:05 <ueno> hi 06:02:09 <paragan> hi 06:02:15 <pravins> hi shilpa epico ueno paragan :) 06:02:29 <juhp> hi 06:02:42 <pravins> hi juhp 06:02:57 * pravins looking for tagoh_ ^^ :) 06:03:13 <pravins> almost all here. lets start 06:03:17 <tagoh_> hi 06:03:20 <pravins> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N/Meetings/2014-11-19 06:03:26 <pravins> hi tagoh_ :) 06:03:30 <pravins> #topic Upcoming schedule 06:04:09 <pravins> #info 2014-11-04 Beta Release 06:04:09 <pravins> #info 2014-11-18 [https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1364 Fesco] Final Freeze (Former Final Change Deadline) 06:04:10 <pravins> #info 2014-12-09 Fedora 21 Final Release 06:05:11 <pravins> Freeze happened yesterday. Still as you know, we can try to provide zero day updates if anything still remained 06:05:49 <tagoh_> right 06:06:08 <pravins> google-noto will be one i think :) 06:06:23 <juhp> any interesting blockers left? 06:06:30 <pravins> thought its not package installed by default. 06:07:34 <pravins> https://qa.fedoraproject.org/blockerbugs/milestone/21/final/buglist 06:08:28 <pravins> as usual anaconda is there 06:09:42 <pravins> No blocker from i18n perspective yet :) 06:09:46 <pravins> lets move forward 06:10:08 <pravins> do bring, if any interesting here 06:10:15 <pravins> #topic Outstanding topics 06:10:22 <pravins> This one is pending from long now 06:10:35 <pravins> #info #34: need Fedora i18n Mission Statement (i18n@lists.fedoraproject.org) 06:10:35 <pravins> #link https://fedorahosted.org/i18n/ticket/34 06:10:53 * epico just added a new one. :) 06:11:07 <pravins> epico: thanks, i saw that :) 06:11:13 <juhp> .bug 1147670 06:11:15 <pravins> thanks anish_ as well for input 06:11:16 <zodbot> juhp: Bug 1147670 keyboard layout chooser switches letters while typing - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/1147670 06:11:22 <epico> Let native speaker of every language feel comfortable and enjoyable. 06:12:21 <pravins> juhp: is it fine, if we discuss bug in bugs corner topic? 06:12:24 <juhp> odd I thought I changed the ticket to say Vision 06:12:26 <juhp> sure 06:12:30 <pravins> thanks juhp :) 06:12:46 <pravins> now, we have number of nice statement 06:13:06 <pravins> how, if we take positive from each statement and make one nice statement 06:13:11 <juhp> or maybe I forget to click send... hm 06:14:17 <epico> pravins +1 06:15:21 <pravins> i have pasted all statements @ http://piratepad.net/zt6yXxFcOb 06:15:29 <pravins> just one below each other 06:15:35 <pravins> hopefully not missed anyone 06:17:42 <pravins> lets try to find tokens 06:19:32 <pravins> do we find some commons and important tokens? 06:21:08 <pravins> I think we can find best vision statement from these tokens 06:21:45 <juhp> +1 for constantly 06:23:02 * pravins never thought it will be so difficult ;) 06:23:06 <juhp> :) 06:23:36 <juhp> I think using token (phrases) is a good idea to capture essences 06:23:48 <mfabian> Shouldn’t experiences be used in the singular? (“Constantly improve i18n user experience”)? 06:24:00 <pravins> mfabian: yes 06:24:32 <pravins> "technology accessible to users" also feel very important token 06:26:09 <pravins> how about that one? :) 06:26:20 <pravins> please feel free to edit or suggest 06:26:45 <anish__> Vision statement looks really nice 06:27:00 <juhp> pravins, I don't feel we need the word Team explicitly in the vision 06:27:15 <pravins> juhp: right 06:27:17 <juhp> it is the vision of the Fedora i18n project 06:27:21 <pravins> agree 06:28:00 <epico> maybe better to use less technical words like Fedora vision statement. 06:28:46 <juhp> aha 06:28:50 <pravins> epico: in that case, what can we right 06:29:00 <pravins> Fedora i18n project wants ....? 06:29:00 <epico> just a thought. 06:29:17 <epico> but I might be wrong. 06:29:32 <pravins> epico: nope, very valid point. 06:29:49 <juhp> I feel comfortable is a bit vague, sorry 06:30:04 <epico> np 06:30:11 <juhp> of course it is all a bit subjective 06:30:18 <juhp> epico, I tend to agree 06:30:25 <pravins> let me paste here 06:30:33 <epico> juhp :) 06:30:33 <pravins> The Vision of Fedora i18n is making technology accessible to users by constantly improving the i18n user experience and to make native speakers of every language feel comfortable. 06:31:11 <juhp> I might add the vision statement probably doesn't even need to start with "The Vision of Fedora i18n is" 06:31:16 <pravins> The Vision of Fedora i18n team is making technology accessible to users by continuous improvement of the i18n user experience and to make native speakers of every language feel comfortable. 06:31:22 <juhp> Making * 06:31:37 <pravins> Yes, why to stamp statement as a vision. 06:32:07 <mfabian> Yes, it also makes it shorter and clearer to omit "The vision of the Fedora i18n team is ... 06:32:19 <epico> juhp +1 06:33:02 <pravins> only words mfabian has different are "constantly improving" to "continuous improvement" 06:33:22 <pravins> looks Anish added it :) 06:33:24 <juhp> I probably prefer continuous 06:33:36 <pravins> me too 06:33:38 <tagoh_> SGTM 06:33:38 <mfabian> Yes. 06:33:39 * epico thinks both are okay. 06:33:55 <epico> okay to me. 06:33:59 <juhp> or continously :) 06:34:16 <juhp> but continuous improvement is good I think 06:34:28 <pravins> yes "continuous improvement" 06:34:40 <juhp> I also feel accessible is vague 06:35:00 <pravins> juhp: two statement with just 2 words change, making me confuse :( 06:35:05 <pravins> can we remove one from there. 06:35:23 <epico> available? 06:35:53 <epico> accessible -> available? 06:36:40 <pravins> epico: i think accessible is good word. accessibility is bit related here 06:36:52 <pravins> "Making technology accessible to users by continuous improvement of the i18n user experience and to make native speakers of every language feel comfortable." 06:37:06 <juhp> I have an alternative now at the bottom of the page 06:37:35 <tagoh_> dunno how about "providing i18n innovation to users" instead? 06:37:55 <epico> pravins, just a suggests, both okay to me. :) 06:38:09 <juhp> I was thinking accessible -> comfortable 06:38:26 <pravins> "Making technology comfortable for (native speakers of) every language by continuous improvement of the i18n user experience" 06:38:40 <mfabian> juhp: The part in the parentheses “(native speaker of)” could be taken out to make it more concise, right? 06:38:51 <juhp> even could remove "by continuous improvement of the i18n user experience" 06:38:56 <juhp> mfabian, right 06:39:16 <juhp> "Making technology comfortable for every language" 06:39:39 <juhp> too brief? 06:39:43 <pravins> juhp: yes 06:39:47 <juhp> heh 06:39:50 <mfabian> “Making technology attractive for users of every language ...”? 06:40:04 <juhp> usable? 06:40:06 <pravins> i feel 06:40:08 <pravins> ""Making technology accessible to users by continuous improvement of the i18n user experience and to make native speakers of every language feel comfortable."" 06:40:18 <juhp> too long ;-P 06:40:19 <pravins> just i am not much happy with the end 06:40:36 <pravins> feel comfortable 06:40:37 <juhp> I don't like the partial duplication of the first and second parts 06:40:50 <pravins> aha 06:41:04 * epico also prefer a shorter one. 06:41:14 <juhp> it feels feel awkward overall to me TBH 06:41:35 <pravins> yes, we can avoid "and" 06:41:39 <pravins> and have single statemenet 06:41:42 <pravins> statement 06:41:46 <juhp> right that was my thinking 06:42:37 <juhp> (also don't think we should restrict to native speakers) 06:42:44 <pravins> we also need to think, is this statement attractive to our stakeholder? 06:42:48 <pravins> developers and users 06:42:51 <juhp> true 06:43:00 <mfabian> Yes, I want to use English and Japanese although I am not a native speaker. 06:43:42 <juhp> in that sense "attractive" captures more 06:43:53 <pravins> "“Making technology attractive for users of every language ..." 06:44:11 <juhp> I grabbed comfortable above but still feels it sounds a bit lukewarm :) 06:44:34 <juhp> (no dots ;o) 06:44:36 <pravins> "Making technology accessible to users by continuous improvement of the i18n user experience to make native speakers of every language feel comfortable." 06:45:05 <pravins> we need to cut short agree 06:45:50 <juhp> continuous improvement sounds more like Mission statement 06:45:55 <pravins> i think we can decide couple of statement 06:45:58 <pravins> and send on mailing list 06:46:02 <pravins> and final one 06:46:03 <epico> juhp, right 06:46:26 <juhp> in the vision everything is already done/perfect :) 06:46:37 <juhp> nirvana :) 06:46:39 <pravins> juhp: excellent point :) 06:46:48 <pravins> good word.. 06:47:09 <pravins> "reach nirvana state for i18n activities" ;) 06:47:18 <tagoh_> simply remove the words after "by..." then? 06:48:04 <juhp> though taking that to an extreme one should remove "making" too then hmm 06:48:23 <juhp> pravins, haha 06:48:24 <juhp> :-) 06:48:25 <tagoh_> do we need to include "how" in the vision? 06:48:33 <juhp> I don't think so 06:49:16 <tagoh_> then I think "by continuous improvement of the i18n user experience" could be dropped. 06:49:29 <epico> tagoh_, +1 06:50:14 <pravins> looks nice 06:50:17 <juhp> "Fedora i18n makes technology accessible and attractive for users of every language." 06:50:29 <pravins> excellent 06:50:48 <anish__> +1 06:50:52 <epico> +1 06:50:55 <paragan> can there be any alternative word for attractive? 06:51:09 <paragan> otherwise looks good 06:51:11 <mfabian> +1. Yes, maybe we can decide on that? 06:51:11 * juhp still misses effortless 06:51:49 <pravins> attractive -> make sense 06:52:04 <pravins> "Fedora i18n makes technology accessible and make sense for users of every language." 06:52:11 <juhp> hmm 06:52:23 <mfabian> attractive is better, I think. 06:52:32 <epico> mfabian, +1 06:52:37 * juhp is not married to attractive or comfortable 06:52:38 <mfabian> And doesn’t attractive already imply some level of effortlessness? 06:52:45 <juhp> true 06:52:48 <pravins> juhp: lol :) 06:52:56 <mfabian> If it takes too much effort, it is not very attractive. 06:53:03 <juhp> mfabian, though it also sounds "pretty" 06:53:14 <juhp> true 06:53:17 <pravins> i think we can freeze ""Fedora i18n makes technology accessible and attractive for users of every language."" 06:53:24 <epico> attractive may also means easy of use. 06:53:43 <juhp> perhaps we can sleep on it for some days? 06:53:47 <mfabian> Yes, ease of use, beauty, ... 06:53:48 <pravins> epico: yes, we can use word attractive as per our interest :) 06:53:50 <juhp> true 06:54:07 <epico> pravins :) 06:54:30 <juhp> I guess I quite like it 06:54:32 <pravins> excellent discussion we had overall :) 06:54:38 <pravins> "Fedora i18n makes technology accessible and attractive for users of every language." 06:55:15 <pravins> lets finalize this? 06:55:21 <juhp> it seems to capture qualities of i18n quite well at a high level 06:55:37 <mfabian> Yes! 06:55:49 <juhp> shall we post it to i18n and see if there is any more discussion? 06:55:58 <juhp> i18n list 06:56:05 <epico> pravins, yeah 06:56:18 <pravins> yes, we can say this if draft 06:56:24 <juhp> sounds good 06:56:43 <juhp> good work :) 06:57:17 <pravins> yes, this is called collaborative vision statement :) 06:57:24 <juhp> +1 06:57:30 * pravins forgot his laptop charger and about to die battery 06:57:36 <juhp> oops 06:57:49 <juhp> can't borrow one? 06:57:55 <pravins> nope 06:58:01 <pravins> i am logging from test machine 06:58:09 <mfabian> Maybe not just draft but final? I think it is really good. 06:58:14 <pravins> #chair tagoh_ 06:58:14 <zodbot> Current chairs: pravins tagoh_ 06:58:35 <pravins> ok, lets move on 06:58:47 <juhp> mfabian, I suggest we give a few days or a week - no rush but yeah I think it is pretty good :-) 06:58:58 <pravins> #action pravins will send an email to i18n list regarding statement 06:59:31 <pravins> #info #36: gnome redesign plans for control-center Region and Languages (i18n@lists.fedoraproject.org) 06:59:35 <pravins> #link https://fedorahosted.org/i18n/ticket/36 07:00:09 <juhp> nothing new from me - maybe we should reach out to aday 07:00:28 <juhp> but maybe better after f21 07:00:33 <pravins> juhp: sure, as we decided last time, for this we need to be proactive 07:00:38 <juhp> yes 07:00:40 <pravins> juhp: sure. 07:00:42 <pravins> thanks 07:00:48 <pravins> lets move to next topic 07:00:57 <pravins> #topic Outstanding task 07:01:01 <pravins> #info #35: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N cleanup (i18n@lists.fedoraproject.org) 07:01:04 <pravins> #link https://fedorahosted.org/i18n/ticket/35 07:01:12 <juhp> mfabian, perhaps you could take to rtcm on it - I have mailed him 07:01:15 <juhp> talk 07:01:44 <pravins> #chair pravins_ 07:01:44 <zodbot> Current chairs: pravins pravins_ tagoh_ 07:01:44 <mfabian> do we want to have some irc discussion with rtcm? 07:02:07 <pravins> juhp: does he there in WG meeting? 07:02:23 <juhp> mfabian, about control-center design 07:02:33 <mfabian> juhp: yes. 07:02:38 <juhp> pravins: not usually I think 07:03:13 <pravins> juhp: hmm, then might be need to invite him sometime, specifically for this discussion 07:03:16 <juhp> mfabian, since you have more tz overlap with them 07:03:25 <juhp> we can 07:03:27 <pravins> mfabian: can you ping him for same? 07:03:36 <mfabian> pravins, juhp: yes. 07:03:39 <pravins> mfabian: thanks 07:03:45 <juhp> I suggested to Rui that we could be involved int he discussion too 07:04:13 <juhp> but like I say we are end of f21 cycle so may not be the best time dunno 07:04:13 <pravins> #action mfabian to ping Rui for some dedicated discussion time on control-center redesign plans. 07:04:20 <juhp> cool 07:04:50 <pravins> we have one meeting plan after this for wiki cleanup 07:04:57 <pravins> so lets try to discuss it there. 07:05:04 <juhp> ok 07:05:29 <pravins> hoping we can divide and conquer it quickly with all of your support :) 07:05:40 <pravins> #topic New topics 07:05:43 <pravins> #info #38: Adding metainfo for font packages (pravins) 07:05:48 <pravins> #link https://fedorahosted.org/i18n/ticket/38 07:06:22 <pravins> Glad to say we done with this 07:06:29 <pravins> only couple might be remaiing 07:06:31 <pravins> remaining 07:06:38 <pravins> kudos to paragan for this :) 07:06:40 <juhp> awesome! 07:06:48 <epico> +1 07:07:02 <pravins> #action pravins to close ticket 38 07:07:14 <pravins> #info #39: Bugs corner (pravins) 07:07:58 <pravins> #link https://fedorahosted.org/i18n/ticket/39 07:08:15 <pravins_> As per we discussed in last meeting, i have created ticket for this 07:08:32 <juhp> thanks! 07:08:55 <juhp> I mentioned a bug earlier which seems not triaged completely yet 07:09:04 <pravins_> .bug 1147670 07:09:07 <zodbot> pravins_: Bug 1147670 keyboard layout chooser switches letters while typing - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/1147670 07:09:10 <juhp> ah yes 07:12:35 <pravins_> tricky bug. 07:12:41 <pravins_> anyone able to reproduce same? 07:12:46 <epico> does anaconda use ibus now? 07:13:35 <juhp> not that I know - does gnome run ibus by default these days? 07:13:59 <tagoh_> on the installer? 07:14:05 <tagoh_> guess not 07:14:16 <mfabian> No, anaconda does not use ibus. 07:14:33 <epico> ah 07:14:43 <juhp> I have seen input misordering occasionally in general 07:14:49 <juhp> tagoh_, well it is on Live 07:15:04 <pravins_> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1147670#c11 07:15:10 <tagoh_> ah, okay. well, that depends on current locale I think 07:16:05 <tagoh_> or it does perhaps - just remember ibus keeps running even after removing ibus-related input sources. 07:16:41 <epico> Live used ibus? 07:17:03 <epico> anaconda on Live. 07:17:42 <juhp> dunno ... 07:17:47 <juhp> epico, it is just running on desktop 07:18:18 <juhp> anyway not sure anything we can do right now - just noticed it on the final FE list 07:18:25 <pravins> juhp, exactly 07:18:32 <pravins> we need more better, steps to reproduce 07:18:45 <juhp> yeah - it seems not so easy to 07:19:38 <pravins> if no more bugs lets move 07:20:32 <pravins> we do have some more discussion after 40 minutes on #fedora-i18n for wiki cleanup. 07:20:33 <pravins> #topic Open Floor 07:21:10 <pravins> if we missed anything please bring up. 07:22:11 <pravins> lets wait for two minutes and close the meeting 07:24:28 <pravins> thanks you all for wonderful meeting. 07:24:36 <pravins> #endmeeting