06:02:15 <tagoh_> #startmeeting i18n 06:02:15 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jul 2 06:02:15 2014 UTC. The chair is tagoh_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 06:02:15 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 06:02:16 <tagoh_> #meetingname i18n 06:02:16 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'i18n' 06:02:16 <tagoh_> #topic agenda and roll call 06:02:18 <tagoh_> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N/Meetings/2014-07-02 06:02:20 <mfabian_> Hi! 06:02:23 <tagoh_> okay, shall we have i18n meeting 06:02:33 <anish_> Hi! 06:02:34 <paragan> hi 06:02:43 <juhp> hi 06:02:55 <epico> hi 06:03:00 <fujiwarat> hi 06:04:17 <tagoh_> let's get started then. 06:04:33 <pravins> hi 06:04:33 <tagoh_> #topic Upcoming schedule 06:04:34 <tagoh_> #info 2014-07-08 Changes Freeze--Planning & Development Ends 06:04:34 <tagoh_> #info 2014-07-08 Branch Fedora 21 from Rawhide 06:04:34 <tagoh_> #info 2014-07-22 Software String Freeze 06:04:35 <tagoh_> #info 2014-07-22 Alpha Change Deadline 06:04:35 <tagoh_> #info 2014-08-05 Alpha Release 06:05:09 <juhp> wow the schedule was set finally - gosh :) 06:05:25 <tagoh_> well, no more "no earlier than" in the schedule. yeah 06:05:52 <juhp> :) 06:06:06 <tagoh_> so we can finally be moving to the next step for f21. 06:06:54 <tagoh_> maybe we should discuss docbeats stuff and test day in next meeting. 06:07:11 <tagoh_> I'll open tickets for them 06:07:27 <juhp> sounds good 06:08:36 <tagoh_> according to the schedule, changes freeze is coming next Tuesday though, how's our changes going on? 06:09:05 <tagoh_> pravins, epico? 06:10:17 <epico> the libzhuyin is still in progress, will try to package ibus-libzhuyin before Alpha. 06:11:28 <juhp> great 06:11:35 <tagoh_> epico: okay, thanks 06:12:56 <juhp> I guess you want to get it done this week to get it into koji by Tue 06:13:10 <epico> welcome :) 06:13:11 <juhp> I see paragan took the review :) 06:14:19 <epico> maybe I will release a new tar ball. :) 06:14:25 <pravins> tagoh_: Lohit change is done 100% :) 06:14:29 <tagoh_> epico: cool 06:14:32 <juhp> epico, great 06:14:34 <tagoh_> pravins: great 06:15:42 <tagoh_> okay, let's move on then. 06:16:12 <tagoh_> #topic Outstanding topic 06:16:12 <tagoh_> #info #26: proposal: IM and xkb UI design improvements (petersen) 06:16:12 <tagoh_> #link https://fedorahosted.org/i18n/ticket/26 06:16:20 <tagoh_> do we have any updates for this? 06:17:08 <juhp> I managed to install Rawhide Live Workstation... and I started looking at some of the IMEs but not filed bugs yet 06:17:16 <juhp> (net install failed for me) 06:17:22 <tagoh_> aha 06:17:57 <juhp> and my old test laptop keeps overheating when rebooting etc but I should have some results soon 06:18:14 <tagoh_> I see. thanks 06:18:33 <juhp> fujiwarat, btw I remembered you talked about removing the "Customize IMEs checkbox" in ibus-setup? 06:18:47 <juhp> still planning to do that? 06:19:17 <juhp> anyway +1 for removing it - I always thought it was unnatural 06:19:45 <juhp> (in the IME tab) 06:19:58 <fujiwarat> juhp: Yeah, I created a patch of 'ibus reset-config' and 'ibus read-config' sub commands for it. 06:20:03 <juhp> (Wayland crashed on me) 06:20:10 <juhp> fujiwarat, aha 06:20:41 <epico> I reported 3 gnome bugs but no response yet. 06:20:41 <juhp> fujiwarat, so can we expect that UI to change in f21? 06:20:46 <juhp> aha 06:20:54 <fujiwarat> Once I upsteamed the patch, I will update the Fedora test case for f21. 06:21:00 <juhp> thanks 06:21:07 <fujiwarat> s/upstreamed/upstream/ 06:21:18 <juhp> fujiwarat, so yes? 06:21:23 <fujiwarat> yes 06:21:26 <juhp> thanks 06:22:09 <tagoh_> I suppose that would be better documenting in relnotes then 06:22:31 <fujiwarat> probably yes. 06:22:58 <epico> 3 bugs about gnome shell ibus issue. 06:23:20 <tagoh_> epico: urls for them? 06:23:26 <epico> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=702944 06:23:32 <epico> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=703020 06:23:38 <epico> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=708890 06:24:20 <tagoh_> aha 06:24:46 <juhp> fujiwarat, I still also wish that the IME input mode submenu were not a submenu 06:25:18 <juhp> "submenu" makes sense for toolbar but not ibus menu IMHO 06:26:02 <epico> should I add some CC? 06:26:36 <juhp> fujiwarat, if I want to open an rfe for that - should it be upstream? 06:27:07 <fujiwarat> epico: maybe pinging rmatos is better on #ibus. 06:27:28 <epico> fujiwarat: which time is okay for him? 06:27:43 <juhp> rtcm :) 06:27:58 <fujiwarat> maybe 7 0r 8 pm :)? 06:27:58 <juhp> epico, he is in EU 06:28:08 <epico> ah, I see. thanks :) 06:28:46 <fujiwarat> juhp: yeah, an rfe may be good. I may not understand the issue. 06:29:37 <juhp> fujiwarat, well I think we talked about it before privately: that input mode should not be submenu but toplevel menu entries 06:30:12 <juhp> but I know it is non-trivial since ibus doesn't know about input modes, though it really should IMHO 06:30:38 <juhp> it might be better to think of them as subengines... 06:31:15 <fujiwarat> Ah, ok, I misunderstood it previously. 06:31:22 <juhp> oh 06:31:53 <juhp> fujiwarat, open in github or ? 06:32:03 <juhp> or still google code? 06:33:07 <juhp> fujiwarat, ibus-setup also outputs a PyGI warnings when run btw 06:33:14 <juhp> a bunch of * 06:33:27 <juhp> well 4 for me ... 06:33:38 <juhp> in rawhide 06:34:08 <fujiwarat> I meant ibus-anthy has a input mode likes "Input mode (あ)" in main menu but probably your suggestion is that toggle menu items on main menu? 06:34:53 <juhp> fujiwarat, ah right. yes 06:35:00 <juhp> does it make sense? 06:35:10 <juhp> okay I see kkc also has that 06:35:21 <fujiwarat> juhp: Yeah, I know unstable pygobject3 outputs deprecated warnings and the warnings are always stopped in the stable release. 06:35:22 <juhp> that is a good feature at least 06:35:31 <mfabian_> What is the problem with these submenus? 06:35:34 <juhp> fujiwarat, ah right 06:36:07 <epico> iiuc, expand the sub menu of input mode? 06:36:16 <mfabian_> I thought ibus-table should maybe change the toggle for the “Chinese mode” which toggles through 5 states, into such a submenu. 06:36:18 <juhp> mfabian_, to me it is a bit annoying having to go into a submenu to change mode 06:36:27 <juhp> epico, right that might work for gnome 06:36:43 <epico> juhp, I see. :) 06:36:59 <juhp> mfabian_, right - that is even worse ;) 06:37:07 <juhp> mfabian_, please do 06:37:15 <mfabian_> But if there is no submenu, then either you have 5 menus in the toplevel, or, as it is in ibus-table now, one menu where you never know to which state it will toggle when you click it next. 06:37:33 <juhp> is 5 too much? 06:37:58 <juhp> I am planning to open a bug against ibus-libpinyin about the toggle too ;-) 06:38:28 <juhp> again toggle may be okay for toolbar but it is not acceptable for the IME menu IMHO 06:38:46 <juhp> I feel this is a bad UI adaption 06:38:56 <epico> ah 06:39:14 <juhp> but maybe zh users disagree? 06:39:30 * epico thinks so. 06:39:36 <mfabian_> ibus-table has already 8 menu entries in the panel. I think I can remove 1 of them, the rest seems useful enough to leave them. So 7 entries stay. Splitting the Chinese mode into 5 would make that 11 lines used in the menu. 06:39:45 <juhp> in fact this is the main reason for keeping #26 open ;o) 06:40:04 <juhp> mfabian_, lol, hmm I see 06:40:12 <mfabian_> If a submenu is used however, the number of lines used in the menu stays at 7. 06:40:14 <juhp> mfabian_, alright well submenu may be good them 06:40:16 <juhp> then 06:40:31 <juhp> mfabian_, what are the 7 entries? 06:41:01 <mfabian_> 1) Chinese input <-> Latin input 06:41:13 <mfabian_> 2) Chinese mode (TC/SC) 06:41:27 <mfabian_> 3) Punctuation width 06:41:30 <mfabian_> 4) Letter width 06:41:35 <juhp> erm 06:41:46 <mfabian_> 5) Pinyin <-> Table input 06:41:51 <juhp> sorry I meant the 5 modes 06:42:08 <mfabian_> Ah, the 5 Chinese modes. 06:42:11 <mfabian_> They are: 06:42:56 <mfabian_> 0) SC only 1) TC only 2) SC preferred 3) TC preferred 4) show everything without preferring SC or TC 06:43:04 <juhp> Japanese seems to have 5-6 06:43:13 <fujiwarat> juhp: Both ibus panel menu GUI and gnome-shell one is not good for you? 06:43:32 <juhp> mfabian_, I think submenu is okay 06:44:08 <mfabian_> Is it possible to have a submenu in the Gnome3 panel, but still have the toggle in the floating panel in XFCE? 06:44:17 <juhp> any other opinions on input mode submenu? maybe everyone who wants speed uses keybindings? 06:44:51 <juhp> mfabian_, it might be a good rfe :) but why is toggle better than menu? 06:45:02 <juhp> quicker? 06:45:45 <juhp> mfabian_, epico: how of often do people change table input mode? 06:45:59 <fujiwarat> juhp: Both ibus panel menu GUI and gnome-shell one is not good for you? 06:46:02 <mfabian_> juhp: you are right, the submenu is better for the floating toolbar as well. 06:46:28 <juhp> fujiwarat, sorry I saw your question - just wanted to solicit other opinions :) 06:46:44 <juhp> fujiwarat, not so much difference - they both use submenu right? 06:46:47 <epico> juhp, only once when setup. 06:46:50 <mfabian_> juhp: much better, one sees better what is available instead of trying by clicking. 06:47:02 <juhp> (: 06:47:04 <fujiwarat> juhp: ok, i see. 06:47:18 <mfabian_> Actually also faster because one can directly go from mode 0) to mode 4). instead of clicking 4 times. 06:47:25 <juhp> mfabian_, indeed 06:47:47 <juhp> (though one has to move the pointer:) 06:47:49 <juhp> anyway 06:48:10 <mfabian_> juhp: I’ll change to sub-menus for ibus-table soon then. 06:48:17 <juhp> epico, that makes me think it should not even be in the IME menu... 06:48:18 <fujiwarat> Hmm.., however submenu is normal on MS-IME. 06:48:26 <juhp> fujiwarat, okay 06:48:47 <epico> :) 06:49:20 <juhp> epico, I guess switch pinyin from toggle to menu is not good? 06:49:34 <epico> actually it only has two mode. 06:49:39 <epico> toggle is quicker. 06:49:44 <juhp> ah yes 06:49:51 <juhp> I see 06:50:21 <juhp> I find the UI confusing but maybe everyone is so used to it 06:50:31 <epico> agreed. 06:50:36 <juhp> hmm 06:50:54 <juhp> epico, any way to improve it? 06:51:09 * epico thinks... 06:51:42 <epico> get back the floating bar... 06:51:56 <juhp> I mean the menu :) 06:52:58 <epico> not currently... 06:53:14 <fujiwarat> I guess the current submenu satisfies users but not sure. 06:53:23 <epico> or two ime top menus? 06:53:50 <juhp> okay - maybe I can close #26 then? 06:53:52 <epico> ime menu and input mode menu? 06:54:03 <juhp> epico, hmm 06:54:32 <juhp> epico, but wouldn't that change the hotkey say? 06:55:03 <epico> maybe not affect hotkey... 06:55:23 <epico> just split one menu into two menu. 06:56:12 <juhp> epico, display "* Chinese", " English" instead of toggle you mean? 06:57:07 <epico> not, one menu for switching imes, one menu for ime property. 06:57:13 <epico> just a thought. 06:57:22 <juhp> ah 06:57:33 <juhp> I see 06:57:51 <juhp> don't we need two icons then? 06:57:59 <epico> yeah 06:58:12 <epico> a random thought. 06:58:28 <juhp> okay it is an idea 06:58:38 <juhp> though upstream ibus seems not like it 06:58:49 <juhp> or phuang at least ;) 06:59:05 <epico> ime icon and input mode icon. :) 06:59:08 <juhp> ibus-anthy has two icons in non-gnome I think though only one menu 06:59:29 <epico> ah 06:59:35 <juhp> epico, +1 from me :) 06:59:54 <epico> +1, :) 07:00:15 <juhp> but phuang says -1 ;o) 07:00:24 <fujiwarat> phuang disagreed to have two icons for zh. 07:01:00 <juhp> and to have single input status icon for IMEs 07:01:04 <epico> fujiwarat, I think it is acceptable for zh users. 07:01:34 <juhp> fujiwarat, I think you made a patch? 07:01:57 <fujiwarat> yes, I have. 07:02:26 <juhp> though double icon is also slightly tricky and only for non-gnome I guess 07:02:46 <juhp> I would still prefer to have similar UI in gnome and non-gnome 07:03:00 <epico> +1 07:03:18 <juhp> so to me single status icon would be best still 07:05:48 <tagoh_> okay, anything else to discuss on this topic? 07:06:18 <juhp> fujiwarat, dunno if there is still any chance for non-gnome? 07:07:48 <fujiwarat> juhp: I have a plan to talk with phuang to show input mode or fork ibus again but maybe it's post f21. 07:08:05 <juhp> fujiwarat, okay good 07:08:23 <juhp> I agree it is late now for f21 for this kind of big change 07:09:56 <fujiwarat> yeah and I guess it still needs a long discussion. 07:10:49 <fujiwarat> FYI: screenshots on win8 for the discussion: http://fujiwara.fedorapeople.org/ibus/win8menu/ 07:12:16 <epico> cool 07:12:45 <juhp> fujiwarat, there is no submenu there ;) :) 07:13:04 <juhp> thanks for the screenshots - useful reference 07:13:14 <fujiwarat> juhp: Oh, you're right. 07:13:24 <tagoh_> aha 07:14:27 <juhp> I don't see Chinese <-> English toggle either but I may be missing something 07:14:36 <juhp> epico, ? 07:15:21 <fujiwarat> left click on 中, switch 中 and 英. right click is ime menu. 07:16:05 <fujiwarat> for zh. 07:16:10 <epico> juhp, maybe in other place. 07:16:17 <juhp> ok 07:16:17 <epico> guess right click. 07:16:28 <juhp> I see 07:16:34 <juhp> fair enough 07:16:37 <juhp> thanks 07:16:51 <fujiwarat> This is right click for zh: http://fujiwara.fedorapeople.org/ibus/win8menu/zh/5.png 07:17:01 <fujiwarat> I think the left click only for zh. 07:17:23 <epico> no other buttons? 07:17:36 <epico> from the input mode icon? 07:17:58 <fujiwarat> no buttons from my testing 07:18:08 <mfabian_> So they have 2 entries in the panel, one to switch IMEs and one for the menu of the current ime. Where Gnome has both in one. The Gnome solution makes this single menu have many entries. 07:18:36 <epico> or more menus from input mode icon? 07:18:39 <fujiwarat> Sine there are two modes only, it maybe left click would be enough for zh. 07:19:05 <epico> fujiwarat, if it has two icons, maybe also two menus? 07:19:57 <fujiwarat> epico: one is http://fujiwara.fedorapeople.org/ibus/win8menu/zh/5.png 07:20:05 <fujiwarat> another is http://fujiwara.fedorapeople.org/ibus/win8menu/zh/6.png 07:20:33 <epico> maybe I need to try a win8 vm... 07:20:55 <juhp> .bug 1115295 07:20:59 <zodbot> juhp: Bug 1115295 improve input mode toggle menu - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/1115295 07:21:41 <tagoh_> mfabian_: guess the POV of "simple" is different. they may feel complicated each other in their POV... 07:23:27 <tagoh_> so shall we move on then? 07:27:28 <tagoh_> #info #30: review Workstation Technical Specification for i18n (petersen) 07:27:28 <tagoh_> #link https://fedorahosted.org/i18n/ticket/30 07:30:05 <juhp> anyone have any comments? 07:31:12 <juhp> (has no idea how to undo hanja lock from ibus menu) 07:33:09 <juhp> current Workstation Live seems to contain 43 fonts fwiw 07:34:59 <tagoh_> well, just one comment. it looks like no indic IMEs in the package list though. am I missing something? 07:35:39 <juhp> right I noticed ibus-m17n was missing from the list 07:36:01 <juhp> not sure how accurate it is - it is actually installed still though 07:36:09 <tagoh_> heh 07:36:28 <juhp> or how useful it is ;) 07:36:48 <juhp> I would prefer to see a groups list supplemented by packages if needed 07:37:07 <tagoh_> guess there might be more packages missing in the list 07:37:16 <juhp> maybe I can update it or talk to mclasen 07:37:48 <juhp> likely 07:38:23 <juhp> anyway comps is probably more important :) 07:38:49 <juhp> ibus-m17n may just have been removed by accident 07:39:12 <tagoh_> that's good then 07:39:20 <juhp> if it is so yes :) 07:39:58 <juhp> s/removed/pruned/ 07:40:01 <pravins> I want to review default fonts in Fedora might be end of this month 07:40:07 <juhp> aha 07:40:26 <juhp> good idea 07:41:01 <juhp> but if we wanted to suggest any changes, earlier better than later I guess :) 07:41:27 <tagoh_> yeah 07:42:03 <pravins> sure, i will check from my side 07:42:13 <juhp> thanks 07:42:41 <tagoh_> anything else? 07:42:47 <juhp> Alpha release is scheduled for just before Flock though might be optimistic 07:43:58 <juhp> generally I think we should engage with the Desktop/Workstation people for f21 07:44:32 <juhp> should we close the ticket already or ? 07:44:47 <juhp> or leave it open for follow ups? 07:45:37 <tagoh_> if no more comments or requests to wait for more, good to close I guess. 07:45:48 <juhp> okay fine 07:46:35 <juhp> I'll ask Matthias about updating/syncing the list 07:46:43 <tagoh_> thanks 07:49:55 <tagoh_> #topic Open Floor 07:50:07 <tagoh_> okay, anything else we want to discuss before stop the meeting? 07:50:28 <juhp> probably we could close #26 too now I feel 07:50:48 <tagoh_> juhp: okay 07:53:28 <tagoh_> if not, will close the meeting shortly.. 07:57:01 <tagoh_> okay, stop here then. thanks everyone for the meeting! 07:57:05 <tagoh_> #endmeeting