14:00:55 <Sparks> #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
14:00:55 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Jun 16 14:00:55 2014 UTC.  The chair is Sparks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:00:55 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00:57 <Sparks> #meetingname Fedora Docs
14:00:57 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_docs'
14:01:00 <Sparks> #topic Roll Call
14:01:04 * Sparks 
14:01:15 * jjmcd 
14:01:27 * rkratky is here
14:01:48 * pbokoc 
14:01:55 <Sparks> #info Participants are reminded to make liberal use of #info #link #help in order to make the minutes "more better"
14:02:00 <Sparks> #info Participants are reminded to make liberal use of #info #link #help in order to make the minutes "more better"
14:02:10 <Sparks> *sigh* Copy/paste is hard
14:02:16 <jsmith> .hellomynameis jsmith
14:02:16 <zodbot> jsmith: jsmith 'Jared Smith' <jsmith.fedora@gmail.com>
14:02:49 * zoglesby is here
14:03:05 <Sparks> #chair zoglesby jsmith
14:03:05 <zodbot> Current chairs: Sparks jsmith zoglesby
14:03:28 * Sparks wonders where randomuser is this morning
14:03:54 * roshi is here as well
14:04:06 <zoglesby> Sparks: I think he thinks the meeting starts at 15 after
14:04:17 <zoglesby> he has been late for the last few
14:04:25 * randomuser arrives
14:04:37 <zoglesby> see what I mean
14:04:40 <randomuser> it's right around the time I get into my office
14:04:45 <zoglesby> slacker!
14:04:54 <randomuser> it would work if I left earlier... but, morning
14:05:17 <Sparks> #chair randomuser
14:05:17 <zodbot> Current chairs: Sparks jsmith randomuser zoglesby
14:05:45 <randomuser> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings#Standing_Agenda
14:05:46 * Sparks passes the reigns to randomuser
14:06:08 <randomuser> I see my subversive plan to get Sparks to run the meetings isn't working
14:06:18 <randomuser> #topic New Writers
14:06:21 <jsmith> :-)
14:06:27 <zoglesby> randomuser: not again
14:06:41 <randomuser> We like to start out each meeting with a few minutes dedicated to people that are new to Docs
14:07:16 <randomuser> So you can speak up, let us know how things are going, voice any concerns, or just say hello
14:07:34 <Sparks> Hi, I'm a new writer and I'd like to just say hi.
14:08:12 * jsmith is old
14:08:30 <Sparks> jsmith: He didn't ask for young writers, just new ones.
14:08:40 <jjmcd> :)
14:09:00 <randomuser> Of course, such people are welcome to participate in any part of the meeting
14:09:03 <zoglesby> jsmith: now the jjmcd is here he wins
14:09:33 <Sparks> zoglesby: Wow
14:10:09 * randomuser steers the meeting back on the rails
14:10:17 <randomuser> #topic Release Notes
14:10:27 <randomuser> #info we should be working on Release Notes
14:10:42 <Sparks> randomuser: Where is the schedule for the RNs?
14:11:20 <randomuser> umm... doesn't jreznik do that for us?
14:11:29 <zoglesby> Sparks: Is there a schedule for F21?
14:11:43 <Sparks> zoglesby: There *should* be.
14:11:46 <zoglesby> randomuser: yes
14:12:11 <zoglesby> Sparks: I did not think a schedule had been published yet
14:12:13 <jjmcd> randomuser, we generally do an internal schedule. jreznik's isn't quite detailed enough, uses terms more relevant to external
14:12:38 <randomuser> ah, ok
14:12:52 <randomuser> i'll have to look into that, then
14:13:20 <randomuser> assistance would be welcome
14:13:42 <Sparks> zoglesby: I'm just wondering when the bits have to be in front of the translators.
14:14:03 <randomuser> IMO we should aim for Beta
14:14:04 * Sparks isn't really sure where he is in the release schedule.
14:14:11 <zoglesby> The schedule on the wiki still has "no earlier than"
14:14:35 <zoglesby> and I have not seen a taskjugler schedule with dates for anything
14:15:27 <zoglesby> We have no firm dates for anything after mass rebuild
14:15:51 <Sparks> Set fire to everything and then wait?
14:16:01 <randomuser> the last couple of releases the RNs schedule has seemed like "cram as much time into it as you can and publish when someone complains about it blocking the release"
14:16:12 <randomuser> something more cohesive would be a refreshing change
14:16:23 <Sparks> randomuser: Yeah, we should probably be a little bit better about that this time.
14:16:31 <jjmcd> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Release_Notes_schedule
14:16:42 <jjmcd> kinda stale
14:17:03 <randomuser> neat
14:17:11 <randomuser> is that made with some kind of tool?
14:17:33 <jjmcd> The main part is just grunted out on the wiki.  I wrote a little program to make the calendars
14:18:50 <randomuser> #info remember to work on RNs as you have time, and encourage others to do so
14:19:10 <randomuser> #action randomuser to update RNs schedule on wiki
14:19:33 <randomuser> thanks for bringing that one up, Sparks
14:19:46 <randomuser> anything else on the topic?
14:20:27 * jreznik is reading...
14:22:08 * jreznik prefers having schedules on one place - it's easier to manage changes
14:22:17 <randomuser> I agree, really
14:22:50 <randomuser> jreznik, I'll try and keep an eye of for when you start publishing taskjuggler schedules - should have a template worked out by then
14:22:51 <jreznik> zoglesby: I think we're almost set - there was that discussion for server product but I expect this week/next week we can have clear schedule ready
14:23:19 <zoglesby> jreznik: perfect!
14:24:21 <jreznik> btw. tj is already published http://fedorapeople.org/groups/schedule/f-21/ but not linked on the wiki, I can update it (kinda happy it's not as visible for now)
14:24:42 <randomuser> yeah, good idea thre
14:25:46 <jreznik> btw once we're on this topic - how confident are you with .next release notes to be done according to the current no earlier schedule?
14:26:23 <randomuser> 80%
14:27:04 <randomuser> 100% confident we'll be able to publish something on schedule, 80% confident that what we publish will be adequately comprehensive
14:27:12 <zoglesby> randomuser: I think we are doing good, we are ahead of the schedule as of now
14:27:19 <jreznik> good
14:27:24 <zoglesby> randomuser: ah, yeah I agree with that
14:28:17 <randomuser> The idea of devel & qa helping out is starting to catch on, though
14:29:04 <randomuser> let's talk about publishing
14:29:13 <randomuser> #topic Publican and Publishing
14:30:01 <randomuser> There was a CVE fix applied to libxml2 because it would accept external includes even when it wasn't supposed to
14:30:18 <randomuser> and for one reason or another, that broke publican
14:30:51 <Sparks> randomuser: I always enjoy a good program that uses a vulnerability to support functionality.
14:31:08 <randomuser> It works with the newer version of libxml2 in F20, but not the current in el6, so I've filed a ticket to ask releng to let us tag libxml2 into el6-docs
14:31:48 <randomuser> Sparks, http://xkcd.com/1172/
14:32:27 <Capesteve> Hello, lnovice sends apologies, she cannot connect to freenode at the moment
14:32:50 <randomuser> I'm honestly not sure if the CVE has been addressed in the version I tested, but if we can't trust the people we've given commit and publishing access to, we have bigger problems
14:33:32 <randomuser> Capesteve, welcome, and thanks for relaying
14:33:58 <randomuser> rkratky, any news on improving the site presentation?
14:34:31 <Sparks> randomuser: +1
14:34:48 <rkratky> randomuser, i haven't had that much time this past week, but i've been doing at least a little bit.
14:35:08 <randomuser> great, thank you
14:35:17 <Sparks> randomuser: trust the people we've given commit access to???  Because we vet them so well?  I mean, come on, I've got commit access.
14:35:24 <randomuser> heh
14:35:33 <Sparks> randomuser: And jsmith
14:35:35 <rkratky> however, when i was mucking around with the old code, i got so frustrated that i don't really understand those bits of JS that seem to crop up everywhere that i just scratched it.
14:35:43 <randomuser> Sparks, why aren't any of your commits signed?
14:36:08 <rkratky> so, i made a fresh start start this weekend: rkratky.fedorapeople.org/docsweb/
14:36:13 <randomuser> rkratky, yeah, it's confusing for me too
14:36:13 <zoglesby> randomuser: because I can't sign them when I push as him
14:36:17 <Sparks> randomuser: You don't want to know.
14:36:21 * jsmith has nothing new to add...
14:36:49 <rkratky> it's just a start, but i think we could go from there (yruseva promised to pretty it up)
14:36:51 <randomuser> rkratky, that's a good looking mockup
14:37:06 <Sparks> jsmith: I love how your comments are totally valid when just waking up mid-meeting.  "Wha?!?  Umm... yeah, sounds good to me."
14:37:40 <rkratky> and, i was thinking... do we really need all that old JS logic? it seem overly complicated, untidy, and most of all unmaintainable.
14:37:43 <Sparks> zoglesby: Did I not provide you a copy of my keys?  I'll get them to you.
14:37:57 <jsmith> Sparks: and I love how you drop my name into a conversation, just to see if I'm paying attention.  (Now get off my lawn!)
14:37:58 <Sparks> rkratky: Are you speaking of Publican?
14:38:06 <randomuser> rkratky, we'd have to investigate where it needs to be ripped out of
14:38:11 <Sparks> jsmith: Go back to sleep.
14:38:14 <rkratky> instead, we could just fire up wordpress or drupal and use s/t that updates itself
14:38:20 <jsmith> Sparks: I've been up since 3:30am
14:38:30 <randomuser> the brand, the homepage, the upstream publican web_style....
14:38:30 <Sparks> jsmith: Exactly
14:38:35 <zoglesby> rkratky: the issue is that publican generates all of that code
14:38:40 <Capesteve> sorry, s/lnovice/novich/ {not a Freudian slip}
14:38:42 <randomuser> jsmith, why would you do that to yourself!
14:38:47 <rkratky> Sparks, no, publican is fine, just web end of things
14:39:09 <randomuser> rkratky, publican creates the web end of things. We've done exactly zero html coding.
14:39:23 <rkratky> zoglesby, publican generates the JS?
14:39:38 <Sparks> rkratky: Yes.  And it used to be much more horrid.
14:39:47 <zoglesby> rkratky: yep
14:39:50 <Sparks> rkratky: Like, poke your eyes out horrid.
14:40:01 <zoglesby> rkratky: the new version may be more sane, but I would not count on it
14:40:05 <randomuser> rkratky, if you wanted to create a completely different frontend, I'd look at generating something from the sqlite db
14:40:13 <jjmcd> Isn't that the definition of JS?
14:40:18 <Sparks> jjmcd: +1
14:40:30 <Sparks> jjmcd: At least we've scripted it now.  ;)
14:40:35 <jjmcd> ;)
14:40:43 <randomuser> the one bit of js there that I think is essential is the language redirect
14:40:50 <Sparks> "Here, go make this awful thing for me.  I'll be back in a while."
14:40:50 <randomuser> or that functionality, at least
14:41:21 <randomuser> Sparks, tag, i have to take a phone call
14:41:27 <rkratky> well, to tell the truth, after two days of poking around the current setup, i wasn't able to get it to look like anything i wanted
14:41:37 <Sparks> randomuser: I wonder if we couldn't do something similar in Drupal.
14:42:11 <zoglesby> Sparks: Are we getting in to the time machine again, we did this in 2008ish
14:42:15 <Sparks> Okay, anything else for Publican and Publishing?
14:42:24 <randomuser> I'm sure it's possible. And I think the structure could be parsed out of the sqlite fairly cleanly
14:42:29 <Sparks> zoglesby: Don't make me comment on that.
14:42:42 <Sparks> randomuser: I've got the conn
14:43:09 <Sparks> Okay, moving on...
14:43:12 <Sparks> #topic Fedora.next Product Updates
14:43:25 <Sparks> zoglesby: What say you WRT .next Server?
14:43:28 <zoglesby> I have nothing new on products this week
14:43:37 <zoglesby> oh, docker
14:43:44 * zoglesby is done now
14:43:47 <randomuser> Sparks has the conn, aye
14:44:08 <Sparks> zoglesby: Did you... did you really just use the D word?
14:44:26 <Sparks> randomuser: .next Workstation?
14:44:49 <randomuser> I'll probably mail the list again and ask them for some requirements
14:44:53 <Sparks> Okay
14:45:03 <Sparks> jsmith: .next Cloudy things?
14:45:04 <randomuser> taking some inspiration from adamw
14:46:12 <Sparks> jsmith: ?
14:46:30 <jsmith> Nothing new from the Cloudy side of town
14:46:34 <Sparks> Okay
14:46:38 <jsmith> I'll bring it up in their weekly meeting again this week
14:46:46 <Sparks> Awesome
14:46:51 <Sparks> #topic Guide Status
14:47:09 <Sparks> Anyone have anything WRT a guide, article, or book they are hacking on?
14:47:27 * jsmith hopes to find time to hack on the Documentation Guide a bit more this week
14:48:53 <Sparks> jsmith: Yeah, we really need to put more into that guide and get it out soon.
14:49:20 <Sparks> jsmith: Feel free to poke me with ideas if you run out of cycles (like I have any to spare but...)
14:49:29 <Sparks> Anyone else?
14:49:33 <randomuser> !
14:49:50 <Sparks> randomuser: Yes, you boy on the front row with your hand raised.
14:50:34 <randomuser> proposal: assemble a list of wiki pages we'd rather have in the documentation guide, commit it to the documentation guide repo, mark WIP/Complete, edit content out of wiki when done
14:50:58 <randomuser> also, haha
14:52:16 <randomuser> EOF
14:52:37 <Sparks> randomuser: Yes.  Perhaps even just add them to a category (something like [[Category:Move to Documentation Guide]] to make it easier for people to find when they have some spare time to tinker.
14:52:47 <jjmcd> What is the status of that wiki -> docbook thingie?
14:52:55 <Sparks> jjmcd: Which one?
14:53:05 <Sparks> jjmcd: The one we were working on with ianweller?
14:53:07 <jjmcd> Ian's weird thing
14:53:08 <jjmcd> yeah
14:53:18 <zoglesby> long dead?
14:53:22 <jjmcd> Last I used it it was working again
14:53:28 <jjmcd> But that was a while back
14:53:30 <Sparks> jjmcd: Probably DOA.  Perhaps we should try to kickstart it again.
14:53:50 <Sparks> jjmcd: Oh, I've never known it to actually work.
14:53:59 <Sparks> jjmcd: Perhaps I've been asleep at the wheel, again.
14:54:02 <jjmcd> I've used it quite a bit
14:54:08 <jjmcd> It can be quite a time saver
14:54:34 <Sparks> jjmcd: Can you send something to the list about it?
14:54:57 <jjmcd> mw_render
14:55:04 <Sparks> Okay, moving on as we are running short on time.
14:55:10 <Sparks> #topic Open floor discussion (5 minutes)
14:55:20 <Sparks> Anyone going to SouthEast LinuxFest?
14:55:34 <zoglesby> oh, oh, me me!
14:56:03 <Sparks> I'm hoping we'll see a few folks from the Fedora camp there.
14:56:19 * jsmith is *not* going :-(
14:56:35 <Sparks> jsmith: Boo
14:56:59 <jsmith> Sparks: I know -- but real life sometimes conflicts with things I'd like to do
14:57:23 <jjmcd> RL can be a real pain
14:57:24 <Sparks> jsmith: Bah, real life is so overratted
14:57:33 <Sparks> overrated even.
14:57:35 <jsmith> C'est la vie
14:58:14 <Sparks> Anyone have anything else?
14:59:10 <Sparks> If not I wish you all a good day!
14:59:22 <Sparks> #endmeeting