06:04:35 <tagoh_> #startmeeting i18n
06:04:35 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Oct 10 06:04:35 2013 UTC.  The chair is tagoh_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
06:04:35 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
06:04:35 <tagoh_> #meetingname i18n
06:04:35 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'i18n'
06:04:36 <tagoh_> #topic agenda and roll call
06:04:37 <tagoh_> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N/Meetings/2013-10-10
06:04:43 <juhp> hi
06:04:45 <paragan> hi
06:04:51 <anish_> Hi
06:04:52 <tagoh_> hi guys
06:05:11 <fujiwarat> hi
06:05:19 <epico> hi
06:06:26 <skore> hi
06:07:04 <dueno> hi
06:07:23 <tagoh_> okay, let's get started
06:07:35 <tagoh_> #topic Upcoming schedule
06:07:35 <tagoh_> #info 2013-10-15        Beta Change Deadline
06:07:36 <tagoh_> #info 2013-10-15        Accepted Changes 100% Complete
06:07:36 <tagoh_> #info 2013-10-29        Beta Release
06:07:54 <tagoh_> beta change deadline is coming next Tuesday
06:09:10 <pravins> hi
06:09:14 <tagoh_> #topic Outstanding topics
06:09:15 <tagoh_> #info #24: Fedora 20 i18n docbeats (i18n@lists.fedoraproject.org)
06:09:15 <tagoh_> #link https://fedorahosted.org/i18n/ticket/24
06:09:21 <tagoh_> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_I18n_Beat
06:09:46 <tagoh_> thanks for updates
06:11:37 <pravins> welcome :)
06:11:53 <juhp> nice to see all the notes
06:12:06 <mfabian> Hi!
06:12:27 <tagoh_> speaking of noto, adding package names might be covered by technical notes so it could be more compact I guess
06:13:01 <pravins> tagoh_: aha, yeah even i was thinking it is too much
06:13:06 <tagoh_> anyawy, wiki is frozen now so need to file a bug if we want to change something
06:13:12 <pravins> might be i can add just script name rather than whole package name
06:13:35 <tagoh_> pravins: that sounds better to me
06:13:43 <pravins> tagoh_: sure, i will update it
06:14:35 <tagoh_> pravins: I think you've tried to update after the freeze in the past release, so assuming you know what you need to do after that :) please open a bug for that then.
06:15:45 <pravins> tagoh_: yes, will do :)
06:15:57 <tagoh_> thanks
06:16:04 <mfabian> Just fixed a typo, that is OK without a bug, I assume.
06:16:54 <pravins> mfabian: without bug it will  not go into main notes ;), so i will add that in my patch
06:16:59 <tagoh_> mfabian: shrugs. could be done with pravins' I hope.
06:17:16 <pravins> mfabian: please point me to type
06:17:35 <mfabian> This line:
06:17:38 <mfabian> * '''ibus-typing-booster''', '''latn-post''', '''latn-pre''' input methods are not blacklisted anymore.
06:17:57 <mfabian> Had only '' after latn-post instead ''', making the boldface not work.
06:18:23 <pravins> mfabian: got it, thanks will do
06:19:33 <tagoh_> anyway, thanks all who got involved with writing/updating docbeats!
06:19:39 <tagoh_> we can close this now
06:19:43 <tagoh_> move on then
06:19:59 <tagoh_> #info #25: Bugs Corner (i18n@lists.fedoraproject.org)
06:19:59 <tagoh_> #link https://fedorahosted.org/i18n/ticket/25
06:20:18 <tagoh_> so any bugs we may want to discuss here today?
06:21:31 <juhp> relnotes are frozen for final already?
06:22:58 <tagoh_> no freeze for GA is mentioned at schedule
06:23:39 <tagoh_> so usually need to file a bug to update.
06:24:30 <tagoh_> we may still have an opportunity to update until Nov 19th, due date of string freeze all guides
06:25:12 <tagoh_> but it won't be done automatically by just updating wiki.
06:25:15 <tagoh_> anyway
06:26:02 <tagoh_> ah, false alarm. until Nov 4th for relnotes
06:27:09 <tagoh_> anyway, no bugs to discuss?
06:28:13 <tagoh_> #info #26: proposal: move to using IMEs for ASCII/Latin input (i18n@lists.fedoraproject.org)
06:28:14 <tagoh_> #link https://fedorahosted.org/i18n/ticket/26
06:29:06 <juhp> fujiwarat told me there is some ibus upstream request for this too
06:29:27 <tagoh_> aha
06:29:31 <juhp> or related request at least - didn't have time to look at it yet
06:30:51 <tagoh_> any chance to talk about this with gnome upstream say?
06:31:16 <mfabian> But why remove the entry for the xkb keboard in the panel? It doesn’t hurt.
06:32:11 <fujiwarat> http://code.google.com/p/ibus/issues/detail?id=1662
06:32:38 <epico> mfabian, some ime already supports Latin mode.
06:32:47 <epico> internal switch is quicker.
06:33:01 <mfabian> One can just stop using Super+Space to switch to that keyboard and use the switch in the IME to switch to Latin. But if the xkb keyboard is still offered in the panel, the other method to switch to that keyboard is available as well to users who do not know the keybinding for the internal switch.
06:33:11 <mfabian> epico: of course the internal switch is quicker.
06:33:46 <mfabian> epico: But why remove the other option? I am afraid that will just create confusion among users  who do not yet know the keybinding for the internal switch.
06:34:30 <epico> mfabian, how about to add one entry to g-c-c keybinding settings?
06:34:52 <epico> and some Chinese users will need to add wubi manually...
06:35:07 <mfabian> Currently, this keybinding is set in the setup tool of the respective input method.
06:35:07 <tagoh_> mfabian: that sounds like implementation matter. if this feature needs to be done as IME specific, I don't think xkb stuff needs to be removed. otherwise that sounds like duplicate in some cases. but I don't think all xkb stuff has to be removed anyway though
06:35:58 * epico dunno whether good to add wubi to the default ime list for Chinese?
06:36:21 <juhp> tagoh_, not yet
06:36:44 <tagoh_> mfabian: speaking of the case of ja, we have ja, and kkc as the input source though, ja may be duplicate if it is coming.
06:37:06 <epico> same for libpinyin.
06:37:11 <mfabian> Yes, but I thought having that "ja" there does not do any harm at all.
06:37:16 <juhp> I think "ja" is mostly confusing
06:37:29 <juhp> mfabian, does it do any good? :)
06:37:31 <mfabian> If one never hits Super+Space, it is never used, it doesn’t matter.
06:37:44 <juhp> you might hit it by accident
06:38:10 <mfabian> Yes, I think 1) it helps users who do know yet know the keybinding for the internal switching 2) it makes it clear what keyboard layout is used in kkc.
06:38:25 <mfabian> I can use kkc with any layout, German layout if I want.
06:38:47 <mfabian> What layout should I expect in kkc if there is only kkc shown in the panel, nothing else?
06:38:57 <tagoh_> mfabian: it does. if mispressed super+space without any notice, they would still expect to turn on hiragana with a hotkey but it wouldn't work then. I think it should be gone to avoid any trouble
06:39:06 <juhp> I think we need to improve the ibus treatment of kbd layouts though that is a separate somewhat orthogonal issue
06:40:02 <juhp> though some IME are now able to override/set their required layout I think
06:40:10 <mfabian> If I have "de", "ja", "あ" in the panel, I can switch to "de" -> "あ" and then use kkc with German layout, if I do "ja" -> "あ" I can use it with the Japanese keyboard layout.
06:40:29 <juhp> mfabian, indeed
06:40:37 <mfabian> If only "あ" is there, how should I know which layout is going to be used?
06:40:42 <juhp> which might make sense if you have two keyboards...
06:40:46 <mfabian> It will probably be "ja", but that is not obvious.
06:41:19 <tagoh_> mfabian: thought we are talking about the default behavior... you can still add any input source as needed no?
06:41:25 <juhp> mfabian, it should not depend on the layout one is coming from - so that is a bug/misfeature really imho
06:41:55 <mfabian> I thought "ja" + "あ" as a default is nice. But maybe I am the only one here  who thinks that is nice?
06:42:21 <mfabian> Currently it depends on the layout it is coming from.
06:42:27 <juhp> mfabian, I don't think you are alone :)
06:42:53 <mfabian> The user should certainly be able to choose the layout.
06:43:01 <juhp> the main issue I see is duplication of functionality
06:43:08 <juhp> absolutely
06:43:13 <tagoh_> right
06:43:24 <juhp> but I don't think the current way is ideal
06:43:37 <mfabian> I don’t like the current way that it depends on the order "de" -> "あ" or "ja" -> "あ" that much either, but at least it does the job.
06:43:52 <juhp> for many users there is no new to switch kbd layout ever
06:43:54 <mfabian> juhp: Yes, I also think this current way is not ideal.
06:44:26 <juhp> so exposing the layout as a separate source makes less sense IMHO
06:44:42 <juhp> but certainly it has use cases - I am not denying that :)
06:45:04 <mfabian> I would prefer 2 completely different entries in the panel, one for the keyboard layouts, one for the IMEs. For me keyboard layouts and IMEs  are two completely different things which should not be mixed.
06:45:25 <juhp> in terms of generality it is probably currently easiest to keep the status quo though :-|
06:45:46 <juhp> mfabian, right I tend to agree as such
06:46:12 <juhp> I think we need to distinguish between sets of layouts are make sense to switch between and those that do not
06:46:24 <juhp> at least for single keybaord
06:46:54 <juhp> the other use case of layout switching is of course use of different physical keyboards
06:47:15 <juhp> eg one might have jp kbd at work and us at home or perhaps as likely vice versa
06:47:54 <juhp> though external separate kbds getting rarer I reckon
06:48:18 <juhp> with a laptop likely only ever to use that layout
06:48:22 <mfabian> external kbds on laptops are getting rarer?
06:48:44 <mfabian> I always plug in an external keyboard into my laptop if possible.
06:48:49 <juhp> me too
06:49:02 <juhp> not sure if we are in the majority? :)
06:50:07 <tagoh_> I don't :)
06:50:25 <juhp> I guess most people don't
06:50:41 <juhp> though I like my thinkpad kbd :)
06:50:54 <juhp> kbds :)
06:51:14 <mfabian> Yes, the thinkpad keyboards are not bad ³
06:51:44 <tagoh_> well, maybe before starting to discuss the implementation, I suppose it may be good to share the problem/purpose and think about how we can improve on it then.
06:51:53 <juhp> yes
06:52:10 <juhp> maybe we need to classify the different use-cases
06:52:14 <tagoh_> it sounds like too detailed at this moment.
06:52:18 <juhp> yeah
06:52:22 <mfabian> So the problem is that the extra "ja" entry confuses some people when hitting Super+Space accidentally?
06:52:41 <juhp> mfabian, I think _A is clearer than ja
06:52:54 <tagoh_> before that, there are an issue that switching is too slow
06:53:02 <juhp> right that too
06:53:09 <juhp> is that still the case with f20?
06:53:46 <tagoh_> and always blinking switcher is a bit annoying to me...
06:54:34 <juhp> tagoh_, the overlay or ?
06:55:46 <tagoh_> juhp: yes.. may need some delay to display
06:56:16 <tagoh_> or only display if the input source has more than 3
06:56:19 <juhp> (btw suggestion in the ibus upstream issue was to preserve IME input mode state like we do now for IME source)
06:56:29 <juhp> tagoh_, I see
06:56:47 <juhp> maybe needs a report?
06:56:53 <epico> tagoh_, +1
06:57:16 <juhp> since I only use kkc essentially haven't really noticed
06:57:16 <tagoh_> juhp: guess so
06:57:50 <tagoh_> because not pressing super+space to switch between ascii and kana right?
06:57:57 <juhp> right
06:58:28 <juhp> of course I use it sometimes on test instances
07:00:03 <tagoh_> so this feature sounds like just a workaround (for them at least) then. need to tackle it separately
07:03:03 <juhp> perhaps
07:03:23 <juhp> but more than just a workaround IMO
07:03:33 <juhp> also usability related
07:03:42 <tagoh_> sure
07:04:05 <juhp> but yes probably should treat the underlying issues first
07:04:18 <juhp> performance and layout handling
07:05:14 <mfabian> I would like to have an easier way to add my own custom layout.
07:05:51 <mfabian> Easier than editing /usr/share/X11/xkb/rules/evdev.xml each time the Xorg packges get updated.
07:06:20 <mfabian> /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols/mike stays in place, but /usr/share/X11/xkb/rules/evdev.xml gets overwritten from time to time.
07:06:39 <tagoh_> guess may be good to have a wiki or so to explain pros and cons on this feature and on when implementing as IME specific or the input source perhaps?
07:08:29 <tagoh_> that may be easier to see what's better and/or what the solution we have for them if it can be improved
07:09:11 <tagoh_> any idea?
07:09:14 <mfabian> ibus-typing-booster probably also should have an "off" mode, to switch it off without having to switch with Super+Space to a plain keyboard layout.
07:13:05 <tagoh_> okay... time to move on. dunno what's the next step for this so far but if you have any suggestions or idea, please add a comment on the ticket.
07:13:20 <tagoh_> #topic Outstanding task
07:13:20 <tagoh_> #info #23: Fedora 20 i18n test day (i18n@lists.fedoraproject.org)
07:13:20 <tagoh_> #link https://fedorahosted.org/i18n/ticket/23
07:14:13 <tagoh_> so what's the review going on?
07:15:36 <tagoh_> anish_, dueno, fujiwarat, mfabian, paragan, pravins, epico: ^
07:16:31 * epico read it.
07:16:44 <epico> no changes for F20, iirc.
07:17:52 <mfabian> The ibus-typing-booster test case pages still looks OK, although I probably should add some more detailed information.
07:18:01 <tagoh_> epico: sure. can you double-check it on f20 in fact? i.e. the steps mentioned there is actually applicable for testing
07:18:10 <epico> tagoh_: okay
07:18:46 <tagoh_> mfabian: okay
07:19:14 <tagoh_> mfabian: add a comment to the ticket once you've done please.
07:21:31 <tagoh_> please finish those reviews before next meeting...
07:21:57 <tagoh_> if you have any suggestions or improvements, feel free to update.
07:22:46 <tagoh_> okay, move on then
07:22:53 <tagoh_> #topic Open Floor
07:23:13 <tagoh_> anything else before stop this meeting?
07:25:55 <tagoh_> okay, then let's finish here.
07:25:59 <tagoh_> thanks everyone for the meeting!
07:26:02 <tagoh_> #endmeeting