18:00:00 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2013-06-27)
18:00:00 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jun 27 18:00:00 2013 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:00 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:00 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
18:00:00 <nirik> #topic init process
18:00:00 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
18:00:03 <EvilBob> nirik: You able to run this thing today>
18:00:07 <nirik> yeah.
18:00:09 <EvilBob> K
18:00:20 <nirik> hopefully it won't be too long a meeting, but who knows. ;)
18:00:39 * N3LRX is here
18:00:44 * EvilBob 
18:00:51 * dcr226 kicks zodbot's tyres
18:01:02 <dcr226> ...sounds expensive
18:01:10 <nirik> but it's not. ;)
18:01:32 <nirik> ok, lets go ahead and dive in then...
18:01:40 <nirik> #topic Week in review
18:01:43 * cyberworm541 is here
18:01:55 <nirik> anything anyone wants to note from the previous week? common problems people are hitting, etc?
18:02:08 <EvilBob> Like every release the there are "trolls o' plenty"
18:02:09 <nirik> I'll note http://www.scrye.com/wordpress/nirik/2013/06/23/attention-fedora-19-prerelease-users/
18:02:33 <nirik> (since f19 is very close, updates-testing is disabled now there, and manual action is required to get back in sync)
18:02:57 <nirik> EvilBob: yeah.
18:03:12 <nirik> release day is likely busy as always.
18:03:23 <EvilBob> nirik: I've been sharing that link, it should be shared more.
18:03:55 <nirik> I did a blog, posted in the g+ group, saw it on faceboot, even posted the forums. ;)
18:04:11 <EvilBob> With the troll population as it is just remember to try to stay frosty and if they push the line, mute/remove them promptly IMO
18:04:23 <cyberworm541> Lol faceboot
18:04:25 * nirik nods.
18:04:35 <nirik> cyberworm541: I always typo it that way, sorry. ;)
18:04:39 <dcr226> nirik, you forgot diaspora
18:04:45 <dcr226> oh wait...so did the world
18:04:50 <nirik> har
18:05:10 <nirik> ok, anything else, or shall we move on?
18:05:16 <nirik> #topic ticket #151 "The help channel for fedora is not too friendly"
18:05:26 <EvilBob> We all try to just tolerate the trolls because we never want to kick someone that is not guilty.
18:05:29 <cyberworm541> Nirik: I thought you were serious
18:05:37 <nirik> so, this ticket is a bit of a puzzlement and drifted around a lot.
18:05:46 <EvilBob> But that can just lead to tickets like this.
18:06:09 <nirik> EvilBob: yeah. if they had been booted more promptly, it would have been less of a issue.
18:06:44 <nirik> anyhow, my thoughts:
18:06:51 <EvilBob> users/non-ops remember that @ops is available to get attention of the channel ops.
18:07:00 <nirik> a) we can't know what the orig person found 'not too friendly'
18:07:17 <nirik> b) the orig person was disruptive/difficult
18:07:37 <Sparks> nirik: If I may add my two cents
18:07:38 <dcr226> third-partied tickets should be ignored imho
18:07:40 <nirik> #info remember to use @ops to get operator attention when something is happening.
18:07:46 <nirik> Sparks: please do.
18:08:07 <Sparks> nirik: I read the transcripts several times since I opened the ticket...
18:08:17 <nirik> IMHO the take away to me is to act more quickly and also avoid some triggering comments that make people flare up... like the 'no netsex' thing
18:08:32 <nirik> Sparks: how far back did you go?
18:08:43 <Sparks> nirik: It is true that the person in question was quite difficult to deal with towards the end of the time period
18:08:49 <cyberworm541> nirik: just do what the folks at #rhel do
18:08:52 <Sparks> nirik: I went back several days
18:09:10 <nirik> ok, I'll note that they appeared from a live and got many hours of help installing...
18:09:10 <Sparks> nirik: I feel that there were some precipitating factors, as I interpretted it.
18:09:53 <dcr226> the ticket was filed by Sparks, who got the information second-hand, and in a different channel. And although he means well with the filing, the point is..he is filing on behalf of someone else, who very likely doesn't care enough to file it on their own
18:10:13 <Sparks> nirik: I'm more concerned with the people that show up for help and get turned off by poor responses to questions and worse language from Fedora people
18:10:13 <cyberworm541> nirik: they try to be helpful but if the guy is just being obviously completely butt  then kick
18:10:20 <dcr226> my take is, if you aren't present in the channel to get the context, why file it on behalf of someone else?
18:11:13 <nirik> so, the reason for these tickets is to help us do better and learn. What can we learn from this one? what items can we do differently/better?
18:11:47 <Sparks> nirik: I would say that it is inappropriate to say that someone is trying to have "sexy time" with you on the channel.
18:11:55 <nirik> my takeaway was: a) nip disruptive people faster to avoid them causing lots of long drawn out anguish, and b) talk to some people about trying to use better language in channel?
18:12:23 <Sparks> nirik: I would also say that giving short answers to questions (it's in the config file) without actually explaining it to someone isn't helpful either.  It's demeaning.
18:12:27 <dcr226> nothing, the ticket is irrelavent because it wasn't filed by the person who was supposedly offended..its like reporting sexual harrasment against someone else when you weren't there to witness it
18:12:43 <EvilBob> It's inappropriate to start sending people private messages period
18:12:46 <Sparks> dcr226: I have a problem with how it was handled.  Okay?
18:13:01 <dcr226> Sparks, noted. But you were not present to see the context
18:13:07 <nirik> well, everyone has a level of support they are willing to provide...
18:13:10 <Sparks> dcr226: I saw the transcripts
18:13:10 <dcr226> Sparks, also, neither was I
18:13:17 <EvilBob> I have a problem with the fact YOU named me in the ticket.
18:13:22 <dcr226> Sparks, so why did it become your problem?
18:13:26 <dcr226> (ooc)
18:13:41 <nirik> from: google it, to read the docs, to read this doc, to read this section of this doc, to 'heres a config file that does what you want' to 'can I login and do it for you'
18:13:53 <EvilBob> I'm glad slandering my name helped you get reelected
18:13:56 <dcr226> are you really making a stand, and want to effect the way that the sig is run...or is it a PR thing?
18:14:04 <Sparks> EvilBob: I simply provided what provoked the ticket.  I've even said *publically* that for all I know you were providing excellent support
18:14:07 <dcr226> if its the former, awesome..welcome aboard
18:14:20 <Sparks> dcr226: Because I'm a Board member and I take seriously the way people think about Fedora
18:14:38 <dcr226> Sparks, why now?
18:14:39 <Sparks> dcr226: A PR thing?
18:14:48 <dcr226> yeah, as in: Public Relations
18:14:48 <Sparks> dcr226: This is not the first time I've provided feedback.
18:14:51 * nirik agrees we can always do better... concrete ideas welcome.
18:15:04 <Sparks> EvilBob: Seriously?
18:15:11 <EvilBob> Sparks: Seriously
18:15:13 <dcr226> Sparks, that doesn't answer my question
18:15:33 * nirik thinks this is some kind of offtopic sideline... can we get back to things we can do to improve?
18:15:40 <dcr226> Sparks, its awesome that you want to provide feedback, would be great if you could /j #fedora more often and really get a feel for people :)
18:15:52 <Sparks> dcr226: A friend tells a friend when he sees something happening that can be improved.
18:16:08 <dcr226> Sparks, how come you can't get ahold of this friend to clarify the position now?
18:16:19 <dcr226> or are we talking about a different thing?
18:16:21 <dcr226> possibly I guess
18:16:22 <Sparks> dcr226: I'm counting you all as friends
18:16:26 <dcr226> ah..gotya
18:16:31 <EvilBob> dcr226: I challenged Sparks to step up and do the job.
18:16:43 <EvilBob> dcr226: 20 hours a week for 4 weeks
18:16:48 * nirik would love to have Sparks helpout in #fedora (time permitting)
18:16:48 <Sparks> My intention is to point out something I see as a problem.
18:16:53 <EvilBob> dcr226: Best I can tell he's refused
18:17:02 <Sparks> EvilBob: Hey, if my being in the room means you'll actually be nice to people I'll be in there all the time.
18:17:14 <EvilBob> Sparks: Do the job
18:17:16 <Sparks> nirik: I'm in there now.
18:17:17 <EvilBob> Help people
18:17:24 <dcr226> Sparks, awesome..like I said, would be awesome if you could /j #fedora and see these things unravelling over time
18:17:29 <nirik> Sparks: ok, so, where do we go from here? I'lll try and talk to folks about the netsex comment... beyond that?
18:17:30 <EvilBob> That is the difference
18:18:16 <Sparks> nirik: I'd say that one of the precipitating problems is people giving half answers.  It's almost egging them on to become frustrated.  It's one of the biggest complaints I've heard over the last few months.
18:18:38 <EvilBob> Sparks: I was nice to this user, I helped them for hours
18:18:38 <Sparks> nirik: We're here to help people not try to show how much more we know than the people asking the questions.
18:18:42 <nirik> Sparks: I'm not sure how to change that aside from you or someone who wants to providing more full answers.
18:19:07 <nirik> ie, we can't force volenteers to do things they don't want to do. I mean we can ask them to... but...
18:19:32 <Sparks> nirik: I feel that the couple of people doing so are conscious of this.  If they truly cannot provide a complete answer they shouldn't respond at all, IMO.
18:19:34 <nirik> a number of folks also just answer as they have time... so a quick answer pointing to a doc between dayjob
18:19:38 <EvilBob> Many of us do not spoon feed, nor should we be required to. There is NOTHING wrong with giving users enough help for them to easily help themselves.
18:19:57 <Sparks> nirik: Sure, that's okay.
18:20:08 <EvilBob> Sparks: You can't have it both ways
18:20:09 <nirik> Sparks: perhaps then it's worth trying to talk to those folks directly? ask them if they could try and do better?
18:20:21 * nirik isn't sure he can think of anything else barring more detailed info.
18:20:25 <Sparks> nirik: I've tried and then I get accused of things...
18:20:29 <EvilBob> You can not say that we can't help and that we can in the same breath
18:20:31 <Sparks> so I'm bringing it here.
18:21:13 <Sparks> I'll happily bring back specific examples if needed.  I didn't have the time to do so this week.
18:21:17 <dcr226> Sparks, do you have a summary solution/suggestion for action?
18:21:37 <nirik> yeah, this is a bit too general for me to follow or know what to try and do... but sure, bring up things as they happen.
18:22:25 <Sparks> nirik: I'll try to come back with more concrete examples.
18:22:49 <nirik> shall we then close out this ticket for now and I will try and talk to folks about netsex comments and nipping disruptive sooner?
18:23:00 <nirik> and Sparks can bring up issues he sees as we move forward
18:23:19 <dcr226> to clarify, does that mean "no netsex" or "no netsex comments"?
18:23:40 <nirik> ha. comments when people PM you.
18:23:43 <nirik> or try to
18:23:48 <dcr226> gotya
18:24:10 <nirik> ie, be better about telling people you don't wish PM's... like EvilBob's canned response.
18:24:27 <EvilBob> People that are willing to give advice in private messages should not be trusted, if they were trustworthy they would do so in the channel where peer review is possible. http://www.scrye.com/wordpress/nirik/2013/02/12/default-to-open-please/
18:25:00 <dcr226> Sparks, seriously though, if you can come up with some specific actions or suggestions that would be awesome..I'm all about process improvement
18:25:02 <Sparks> EvilBob: That doesn't mean you need to jump all over people when they try to ask a question in private.
18:25:03 <nirik> or something along those lines thats more professional and not so trying to be joking/cute
18:25:07 <Sparks> dcr226: +1
18:25:09 <EvilBob> ^^ canned response ^^
18:25:16 <Sparks> EvilBob: +1
18:25:23 <EvilBob> Sparks: What?
18:25:31 <EvilBob> What the hell are you talking about
18:25:46 <nirik> #info will close ticket out and try and get folks to use more professional language when talking about unwanted PM's.
18:25:48 <EvilBob> You accusing me of something else now?
18:25:55 <EvilBob> The election is over.
18:26:05 <Sparks> EvilBob: It was never about an election.
18:26:11 <EvilBob> Sure...
18:26:23 <Sparks> At what point did I say anything about an election to anyone?
18:26:23 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
18:26:24 <Sparks> ever?
18:26:37 <EvilBob> You didn't have to
18:26:40 <nirik> anyone have items for open floor? comments/suggestions/ideas
18:26:41 <nirik> ?
18:26:46 <dcr226> bacon
18:27:20 * nirik doesn't get the election thing, but whatever.
18:27:47 <nirik> if nothing else, will close out in a min.
18:28:21 <nirik> Thanks for coming everyone.
18:28:33 <nirik> Thanks for the input Sparks, hope you will help us improve things...
18:28:40 <EvilBob> As always I urge everyone on the Board or anyone else that wants to tell us what and how to do things
18:28:40 <nirik> #endmeeting