06:03:34 <tagoh_> #startmeeting i18n
06:03:34 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Apr 11 06:03:34 2013 UTC.  The chair is tagoh_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
06:03:34 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
06:03:34 <tagoh_> #meetingname i18n
06:03:34 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'i18n'
06:03:34 <tagoh_> #topic agenda and roll call
06:03:35 <tagoh_> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N/Meetings/2013-04-11
06:03:48 <tagoh_> shall we have i18n meeting
06:03:52 <mfabian> Hi!
06:03:59 <anish_> Hi
06:04:19 <dueno> hi
06:04:33 <tagoh_> hi guys
06:04:56 <epico> hi
06:05:13 <fujiwarat> hi
06:08:10 <tagoh_> okay, let's get started.
06:08:28 <juhp> hi
06:08:33 <tagoh_> #topic Upcoming schedule
06:08:33 <tagoh_> #info 2013-04-11        Test_Day:2013-04-11_Translation_(l10n)
06:08:34 <tagoh_> #info 2013-04-16        Alpha Release
06:08:58 <tagoh_> as you may read an announcment, today's l10n test day
06:09:30 <tagoh_> good to join and test for your primary language
06:09:57 <tagoh_> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2013-04-11_Translation_(l10n)
06:10:37 <anish_> not sure may be it got postponed in India due to festival
06:11:17 <tagoh_> well, it's not available today only. you can go through testing any time of course.
06:13:22 <tagoh_> okay, move on.
06:13:27 <tagoh_> #topic Outstanding topics
06:13:27 <tagoh_> #info #16: Improving testcases/matrix for i18n test day (tagoh)
06:13:27 <tagoh_> #link https://fedorahosted.org/i18n/ticket/16
06:13:37 <tagoh_> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2013-05-02_Localization_(i18n)
06:14:46 <tagoh_> anyone tried to update test cases?
06:15:11 <tagoh_> as I mentioned in last meeting, you need to finish it by April 24
06:15:41 <tagoh_> epico: any chance to draft zh-TW test case for IM btw?
06:16:00 <epico> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Chewing
06:16:30 <epico> just added it.
06:16:39 <tagoh_> aha, thanks!
06:16:55 <epico> welcome
06:17:05 <tagoh_> can you add it to the test day page too?
06:17:22 <epico> which page?
06:17:37 <tagoh_> see above :)
06:18:06 <tagoh_> in Input (language-specific) section
06:18:44 <epico> thanks, I see.
06:19:57 <tagoh_> anything else about test day stuff?
06:20:51 <epico> okay, add it.
06:20:57 <epico> s/add/added/
06:20:59 <tagoh_> epico: cool
06:21:24 <tagoh_> okay, move on then.
06:21:46 <tagoh_> #info #18: F19 i18n docbeats (tagoh)
06:21:46 <tagoh_> #link https://fedorahosted.org/i18n/ticket/18
06:22:01 <tagoh_> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_I18n_Beat
06:23:15 <tagoh_> fujiwarat: was phuang back from his vacation btw?
06:23:37 <fujiwarat> tagoh_: No, unfortunately.
06:23:43 <tagoh_> I see..
06:25:09 <tagoh_> fujiwarat: how about improved ibus GNOME integration? do you have any mind to add something into relnotes?
06:26:42 <fujiwarat> Maybe most updates could be bug fixes.
06:27:26 <tagoh_> switcher?
06:28:05 <tagoh_> dunno if it's worth adding there
06:28:06 <fujiwarat> Ah, good point.
06:30:00 <tagoh_> docbeats is still in draft. so we can discuss and polish later. so maybe good to note anything at this moment if there are.
06:30:35 <tagoh_> fujiwarat: if you have anything else, please add.
06:31:12 <fujiwarat> tagoh_: OK, I see.
06:31:16 <tagoh_> thanks
06:31:19 <juhp> I edited the IM section a bit - please check i didn't introduce any mistakes
06:31:38 <tagoh_> juhp: sure. thanks!
06:31:54 <fujiwarat> Actually switcher GUI was done in ibus-gjs in f17.
06:32:27 <juhp> fujiwarat, but not in f18
06:32:39 <juhp> and it was an optional package I think?
06:33:17 <fujiwarat> juhp: Yes.
06:33:24 <tagoh_> it could be a feature in f19 which has been integrated to gnome and available by default
06:33:26 <juhp> but the new switcher really comes from I guess
06:33:36 <juhp> + gnome
06:33:47 <fujiwarat> ok
06:33:51 <juhp> I think it is worth mentioning anyway
06:33:59 <juhp> nothing else ?
06:35:15 <tagoh_> ah, default keybinding?
06:35:56 <juhp> Super-Space
06:36:00 <tagoh_> right
06:36:05 <juhp> yes
06:36:33 <juhp> fujiwarat, basically you can mention any new features since F18 GA
06:36:51 <juhp> though of course things already in f18 updates might be less exciting
06:37:52 <tagoh_> how about IM menu at panel? dunno if it's useful information for users?
06:38:44 <juhp> hmm true - though it is almost a bugfix ;o)
06:39:07 <juhp> but it is certainly new compared to f18
06:40:43 <tagoh_> okay, anything else?
06:41:24 <juhp> so might be good to reassure users that IME menus back and whitelist gone
06:41:41 <tagoh_> sounds good to me.
06:43:30 <tagoh_> if not, shall we move on then?
06:43:52 <tagoh_> #topic Open Floor
06:44:11 <tagoh_> well, we may want to discuss about 2 exception bugs being proposed?
06:44:24 <tagoh_> .bug 927564
06:44:29 <zodbot> tagoh_: Bug 927564 F19 release-name “Schrödinger’s Cat” shown as "SchrA¶dingerâÇÖs Cat" on the linux console - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=927564
06:44:29 <tagoh_> .bug 949525
06:44:32 <zodbot> tagoh_: Bug 949525 f19 systemd ignores /etc/locale.conf and runs in LANG=C or locale configured in initramfs - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=949525
06:45:08 <juhp> yes they will not be fixed in Alpha alas
06:45:47 <tagoh_> aha
06:46:15 <juhp> there has been a bit of progress on 949525 though it is not completely fixed yet afaict - well maybe come even clearer once systemd-201 going into the repos
06:46:45 <juhp> bit hard to test completely for install currently
06:46:56 <juhp> since dracut depends on systemd
06:47:17 <mfabian> The font problem is not yet solved, not even with systemd-201.
06:47:18 <juhp> also seems dracut should be run later in the install than currently
06:47:22 <juhp> right
06:47:54 <juhp> I hope there is no impact for the Translation test day :-|
06:48:15 <tagoh_> I see
06:48:22 <juhp> and I hope we have fix before the i18n one...
06:48:51 <juhp> running system daemons in LANG=C is unacceptable to me
06:49:12 <juhp> (for Live installs it is en_US.utf8 at least)
06:49:34 <juhp> basically whatever is configured in the initramfs
06:50:08 <tagoh_> right. we has ever used en_US instead of C
06:52:50 <tagoh_> any other impact on this issue? particularly to re-consider to make it exception?
06:55:05 <juhp> (actually even in f18 systemd itself runs with LANG=C but no child processes)
06:55:29 <juhp> tagoh_, well it means gdm and g-i-s run in LANG=C
06:55:48 <tagoh_> aha
06:55:55 <juhp> I think that is the main immediate impact
06:56:17 <juhp> but kind of expect there could be more else where
06:56:27 <juhp> anyone tested kde?
06:56:35 <tagoh_> is it a reason why we see ??? at g-i-s?
06:56:39 <juhp> right
06:56:53 <tagoh_> hmm
06:57:05 <juhp> mfabian first noticed the LANG=C
06:57:06 <tagoh_> is it not a fatal??
06:57:28 <tagoh_> do they know about it?
06:57:29 <juhp> it was rejected as an Exception even :-(
06:58:09 <juhp> on the basis of being too late to change systemd
06:58:10 <juhp> for this
06:58:17 <mfabian> I think it is weird to reject that as an exception, it should be not that hard to fix and it is important.
06:58:19 <juhp> kind of I think
06:58:25 <juhp> I agree
06:59:00 <juhp> disappointing - we need i18n criteria for Alpha and certainly Beta
06:59:46 <juhp> Live installs are ok though as I mentioned at least
06:59:58 <juhp> ok = utf8
07:00:23 <tagoh_> reading logs of blocker review meeting, they were assuming text are available in English. but actually not. so good to mention at bug and propose it again
07:00:43 <juhp> I think QA was worried about introducing regressions with a system version bump
07:01:04 <juhp> tagoh_, aha
07:01:32 <juhp> good point though guess it affect much less layouts for en_US?
07:01:47 <juhp> in many languages is unreadable
07:02:03 <juhp> but you are probably right that they don't fully understand the impact
07:02:29 <tagoh_> yeah
07:02:31 <juhp> the main argument I recall was that it might be fixable by an update but currently that is not true
07:02:54 <juhp> a kernel update might do it - I haven't tested that
07:03:06 <juhp> so perhaps
07:03:09 <juhp> shrug
07:03:31 <juhp> IMHO it should be blocker but it is not my decision...
07:03:35 <tagoh_> anyway, we may need to clarify that
07:03:40 <juhp> okay
07:04:23 <tagoh_> okay, anything else we want to discuss in the meeting?
07:04:36 <juhp> I can try to re-propose I guess but I don't think they will accept Exception even now - specially if it is not already clearly fixed
07:05:18 <tagoh_> may depends on impact they see..
07:05:20 <juhp> Go/No-Go meeting is tonight UTC
07:05:28 <tagoh_> hmm
07:05:55 <juhp> to get fixed I think it needs to be accepted as a blocker likely at this stage
07:06:41 <tagoh_> all accepted blockers seems in testing now and 5 additional blockers are being proposed btw
07:07:14 <tagoh_> http://qa.fedoraproject.org/blockerbugs/milestone/19/alpha/buglist
07:07:34 <tagoh_> anyway
07:07:56 <juhp> mfabian, perhaps you could try to attend the blocker meeting and mention this issue?
07:08:21 <mfabian> juhp: When is the blocker meeting?
07:08:34 <juhp> ah but it is late for you
07:08:44 <mfabian> When is it?
07:08:55 <juhp> 17:00 EDT I think
07:09:00 <mfabian> Today?
07:09:04 <juhp> yes
07:09:07 <juhp> I believe so
07:09:30 <juhp> but it really need to be proposed
07:09:42 <mfabian> Where is the meeting info?
07:09:46 <juhp> to get attention
07:09:51 <juhp> let me try to find it
07:10:06 <juhp> mfabian, I think it should be announced on fedora test list
07:10:48 <mfabian> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:SOP_Blocker_Bug_Meeting ??
07:12:03 <epico> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Go_No_Go_Meeting?
07:12:11 <epico> from devel announce.
07:13:12 <juhp> mfabian, ah 1700 UTC
07:13:16 <juhp> epico, thanks
07:13:25 <epico> np
07:13:29 <juhp> calendar entry is wrong
07:13:37 <juhp> thought it was a funny time to have a meeting
07:13:44 <mfabian> Which one, the Go_No_Go_Meeting?
07:13:49 <juhp> indeed
07:14:06 <juhp> Fedora 19 Alpha Go/No-Go Meeting, Thursday, April 11 @ 17:00 UTC
07:14:19 <juhp> mfabian, are you on devel-announce?
07:14:25 <epico> mfabian, http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel-announce/2013-April/001135.html
07:14:56 <tagoh_> they will have a look at blocker list. so maybe we can mention impact at bz and propose it as blocker perhaps?
07:15:10 <juhp> tagoh_, right that is the only way
07:15:49 <tagoh_> juhp: okay, can you update the bug?
07:15:50 <juhp> weak side is they basically already reviewed the bug... and fix currently looks partial
07:15:53 <juhp> okay
07:15:56 <mfabian> juhp: Yes, I am on devel-announce
07:16:36 <tagoh_> thanks
07:16:37 <juhp> maybe I will try to do a net install including 201
07:16:55 <juhp> if I can talk anaconda into it not sure how to add repos
07:17:33 <juhp> but to be honest I hate to admit but even i am not sure it is worth delaying Alpha a week for this
07:17:41 <mfabian> juhp: Would that make any difference to how I tested?
07:18:04 <mfabian> (install systemd-201 while gnome-initial-setup displays and reboot)
07:18:05 <juhp> well it would pull 201 into the install package set itself but I dunno
07:18:23 <juhp> it would affect the dracut -f in anaconda at least I guess
07:19:08 <juhp> I was happy to see lennart add 201 to the initial-setup bodhi update but unfortunately it did not slip through ;o)
07:19:48 <juhp> mfabian, so theoretically it might help but I am also skeptical
07:20:21 <tagoh_> okay, let's see how they decide after all
07:20:24 <juhp> the main problem currently seems to be that anaconda sets locale.conf too late for dracut to pick up
07:20:50 <juhp> tagoh_, so you see there are probably 2+ packages involved in the fix
07:21:05 <tagoh_> aha
07:21:31 <juhp> so it looks quite unlikely but at least we could alert them again to the problem
07:21:33 <mfabian> I’ll join that meeting today. It is not too late here.
07:21:40 <juhp> mfabian, thanks!
07:21:51 <tagoh_> cool
07:21:56 <tagoh_> anything else before closing the meeting?
07:22:17 <mfabian> https://github.com/mike-fabian/lang-table
07:22:22 <juhp> oh!
07:23:08 <tagoh_> aha
07:23:52 <juhp> looks nice
07:24:10 <anish_> cool!
07:24:56 <mfabian> No documentation yet, the test cases sort of show how I think it should work: https://github.com/mike-fabian/lang-table/blob/master/test_cases.txt
07:25:36 <juhp> great
07:26:21 <mfabian> >>> test_language_country(show_weights=False, languageId="de", countryId="CH") # doctest: +NORMALIZE_WHITESPACE
07:26:22 <mfabian> de: ['de_DE.UTF-8', 'de_AT.UTF-8', 'de_CH.UTF-8', 'de_BE.UTF-8']
07:26:22 <mfabian> CH: ['de_CH.UTF-8', 'fr_CH.UTF-8', 'it_CH.UTF-8', 'wae_CH.UTF-8']
07:26:22 <mfabian> +: ['de_CH.UTF-8']
07:26:25 <mfabian> de: ['de(nodeadkeys)', 'de(deadacute)', 'at(nodeadkeys)', 'ch', 'be(oss)']
07:26:28 <mfabian> CH: ['ch', 'ch(fr)']
07:26:31 <mfabian> +: ['ch']
07:26:55 <tagoh_> just wonder if there may be similar information in CLDR say?
07:27:20 <mfabian> Line marked with "de" is when only "de" is specified (list of possible locales or keyboards), line marked with "CH" is when only "CH" is specified, lines marked with "+" is when both is specified.
07:27:21 <tagoh_> but maybe not everything
07:27:32 <mfabian> tagoh_: I get some of this from CLDR.
07:27:38 <tagoh_> aha
07:27:49 <mfabian> There seems to be no useful keyboard information in CLDR.
07:28:09 <tagoh_> so is it able to update by script say when they update something?
07:28:50 <mfabian> I get the language names (translations and endonyms) from CLDR, but I think  we  need to be able to "improve" the language and country names sometimes for political reasons  (Taiwan, Israel,...)
07:28:54 <tagoh_> or need to maintain by hand?
07:29:27 <mfabian> I want to update it semi-automatically.
07:29:46 <tagoh_> sure
07:29:59 <mfabian> semi-automatically because I want to avoid overwriting changes we made for political reasons.
07:30:18 <mfabian> I.e. add new stuff from CLDR we don’t yet have automatically.
07:30:36 <mfabian> But if it is already there and different, just show the difference and decide manually.
07:30:39 <tagoh_> yep
07:31:49 <mfabian> The keyboard information (what should be the default keyboard for a language or locale?) needs to be maintained manually at the moment.
07:32:07 <juhp> ok
07:32:53 <tagoh_> nice work anyway
07:33:20 <tagoh_> okay, anything else?
07:34:33 <tagoh_> if not, let's close the meeting shortly
07:35:52 <tagoh_> okay, stop here then. thanks everyone for the meeting!
07:36:00 <tagoh_> #endmeeting