16:05:47 <sochotni> #startmeeting Java SIG -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Java
16:05:47 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Feb  5 16:05:47 2013 UTC.  The chair is sochotni. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:05:47 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:05:51 <sochotni> #meetingname Java SIG
16:05:51 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'java_sig'
16:05:55 <sochotni> #topic roll-call
16:06:16 <sochotni> so who do we have here
16:06:45 <sochotni> .fasinfo sochotni
16:06:46 <zodbot> sochotni: User: sochotni, Name: Stanislav Ochotnicky, email: sochotni@redhat.com, Creation: 2010-04-06, IRC Nick: , Timezone: Europe/Prague, Locale: en, GPG key ID:  71A1677C, Status: active
16:06:48 <zodbot> sochotni: Approved Groups: +gitfedorareview fedorabugs cla_redhat cla_fedora cla_done +packager provenpackager @git-javapackages
16:06:58 <tradej> .fasinfo tradej
16:07:00 <zodbot> tradej: User: tradej, Name: Tomas Radej, email: tradej@redhat.com, Creation: 2011-08-03, IRC Nick: tradej, Timezone: Europe/Prague, Locale: en, GPG key ID: , Status: active
16:07:02 <zodbot> tradej: Approved Groups: provenpackager cla_fpca cla_done packager fedorabugs
16:07:34 <akurtakov> .fasinfo akurtakov
16:07:35 <zodbot> akurtakov: User: akurtakov, Name: Alexander Kurtakov, email: akurtako@redhat.com, Creation: 2008-10-01, IRC Nick: akurtakov, Timezone: Europe/Sofia, Locale: en, GPG key ID: , Status: active
16:07:38 <zodbot> akurtakov: Approved Groups: @giteclipse-packagekit cla_fedora cla_done cla_redhat fedorabugs +packager provenpackager @git-javapackages @giteclipse-fedorapackager
16:07:50 <mizdebsk> .fasinfo mizdebsk
16:07:52 <zodbot> mizdebsk: User: mizdebsk, Name: Mikolaj Izdebski, email: mizdebsk@redhat.com, Creation: 2012-04-02, IRC Nick: mizdebsk, Timezone: Europe/Prague, Locale: en, GPG key ID: , Status: active
16:07:55 <zodbot> mizdebsk: Approved Groups: @gitmaven-rpminstall-plugin provenpackager git-javapackages cla_fpca cla_done packager fedorabugs @gitjava-deptools
16:08:19 <sochotni> mefoster: I assume you are here as well
16:08:31 <jerboaa> .fasinfo jerboaa
16:08:32 <zodbot> jerboaa: User: jerboaa, Name: None, email: jerboaa@gmail.com, Creation: 2010-06-17, IRC Nick: None, Timezone: None, Locale: None, GPG key ID: None, Status: active
16:08:35 <zodbot> jerboaa: Approved Groups: cla_fedora cla_done cla_redhat packager fedorabugs @giteclipse-fedorapackager
16:08:52 <sochotni> this should be pretty short meeting really...
16:08:56 <msrb> .fasinfo msrb
16:09:00 <zodbot> msrb: User: msrb, Name: Michal Srb, email: msrb@redhat.com, Creation: 2012-12-04, IRC Nick: None, Timezone: UTC, Locale: en, GPG key ID: None, Status: active
16:09:03 <zodbot> msrb: Approved Groups: fedorabugs packager cla_done cla_fpca
16:09:24 <mefoster> .fasinfo mef
16:09:25 <zodbot> mefoster: User: mef, Name: None, email: mefoster@gmail.com, Creation: 2007-08-29, IRC Nick: None, Timezone: None, Locale: None, GPG key ID: None, Status: active
16:09:28 <zodbot> mefoster: Approved Groups: fedorabugs cla_fedora cla_done packager provenpackager cla_fpca
16:09:32 <sochotni> agenda is mostly this: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Java_SIG_2013-02
16:09:45 <sochotni> we'll do a proper big meeting sometime later :-)
16:10:21 <sochotni> ok, I guess I'll continue...
16:10:30 <sochotni> #topic BR: maven to maven-local change
16:10:50 <sochotni> I've submitted a proposal for FPC already: https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/251
16:11:06 <pingou> me
16:11:07 <sochotni> basically it boils down to changing BuildRequires of maven packages
16:11:12 <sochotni> pingou: too late :-P
16:11:18 <pingou> sochotni: saw I see
16:11:20 <pingou> so*
16:11:24 * pingou can't type
16:11:24 <sochotni> so they BR: maven-local
16:11:52 <sochotni> this will mean that Maven itself will be a clean upstream version
16:12:04 <sochotni> it will not pull in pom or other dependencies
16:12:43 <sochotni> Change to guidelines is a oneliner in a template basically :-)
16:12:50 <sochotni> https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=User%3AAkurtakov%2FJavaPackagingDraftUpdate&diff=321731&oldid=309299
16:12:54 <akurtakov> +1 from me, we should remove the major complain from upstream about that
16:13:11 <mizdebsk> +1 this change is really needed
16:13:14 <sochotni> indeed I believe upstream will enjoy this change as well
16:14:10 <mefoster> There's no chance that some package may be depending on some weirdo dependency of maven that's not included in maven-local?
16:14:10 <pingou> sochotni: I miss somewhere the explanation of why this change, explanation you just gave here
16:14:13 <mefoster> (indirectly)
16:14:17 <tradej> +1
16:14:19 <sochotni> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_19_Maven_Rebuild
16:14:21 <sochotni> pingou: ^
16:14:32 <sochotni> sorry, I apparently forgot to add link to mails I sent out
16:14:38 <sochotni> the only mention is in FPC ticket I guess
16:14:51 <pingou> oh, second link on the  fpc ticket, my bad :)
16:14:52 <sochotni> mefoster: maven-local will have Requires: maven
16:15:19 <mefoster> sochotni: Right, that should work
16:15:22 <sochotni> mefoster: currently maven has Requires: maven-local as a transition. We'd like to get rid of that so F-19 can have nice clean upstream version
16:15:24 <pingou> sochotni: what about, just updating the spec file and let the mass-rebuild take care of the rebuild?
16:15:30 <pingou> (or is it already what's planned?)
16:15:40 <sochotni> pingou: yes, I talked to dgilmore about it
16:15:43 <pingou> otherwise, +1 for me :)
16:15:51 <sochotni> we'll commit the change and let the build be done by regular mass rebuild
16:16:00 * misc fear that the rebuild will show lots of error with date in rpm changelog
16:16:27 <sochotni> misc: fortunately that's just warning
16:16:31 <akurtakov> misc: you mean actual failures?
16:16:34 <sochotni> but yeah, I am pretty sure it will
16:16:41 <misc> sochotni: I am not sure that's just warning
16:17:04 <sochotni> misc: well it's sometimes more visible than a true build problem that's true
16:17:12 <sochotni> so it gives impression that changelog is the cause
16:17:19 <mizdebsk> bad date in changelog is a warning only, not fatal error
16:17:24 <misc> oh good
16:17:35 <sochotni> if it's not obvious this has +1 from me as well
16:17:53 <sochotni> there's very little risk and extremely high gain from this simple change
16:18:11 <sochotni> I don't expect any major issues
16:18:16 <msrb> +1
16:18:47 <sochotni> so I will continue with FPC tomorrow hopefully
16:19:08 <tradej> sochotni: the beautiful thing about issues is that they're not expected :)
16:19:22 <sochotni> #action sochotni will get this on FPC's agenda tomorrow hopefully
16:19:22 <tradej> otherwise i'm all in favor
16:19:42 <sochotni> #topic New bigger changes for later (general discussion)
16:19:56 <sochotni> #url https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/XMvn
16:20:13 <sochotni> basically those that didn't notice, we are in planning of bigger changes to packaging maven artifacts
16:21:21 <sochotni> The changes are relatively big, but I believe it will be obvious to people they will simplify stuff tremendously
16:21:51 <sochotni> http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/cgit/apache-commons-compress.git/tree/apache-commons-compress.spec
16:22:00 <sochotni> that's an example of new style spec
16:22:19 <sochotni> almost empty file sections, single line install section etc
16:22:41 <sochotni> we can apply the change in guidelines in single place mostly
16:22:52 <pingou> nice
16:24:23 <sochotni> http://mizdebsk.fedorapeople.org/slides.pp.pdf (pages 20-22)
16:24:29 <akurtakov> apparently, I like any simplification :)
16:24:31 <sochotni> that's what we'll achieve :-)
16:25:00 <tradej> tried it. it's tremendous
16:25:43 <sochotni> I'll be reaching out to people over following days asking for concerns about this change
16:26:18 <sochotni> good thing is we can do the transition gradually
16:26:38 <sochotni> We don't have to convert everything in a single release
16:27:38 <mizdebsk> basically packgers can choose if they want to migrate to new style spec files and benefit a lot or keep the old format
16:29:02 <sochotni> we'd have to decide how to handle guideline change to allow for transition without actually making the page unreadable
16:29:06 <sochotni> msrb is working on that
16:29:53 <sochotni> is everybody reading those slides and feature page right now? :-)
16:30:13 * vanaltj goes to do this. :)
16:30:19 <sochotni> for latecomers: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/XMvn
16:30:34 <sochotni> and http://mizdebsk.fedorapeople.org/slides.pp.pdf (mostly pages 20-22)
16:30:41 <sochotni> to give you an idea
16:30:45 <akurtakov> sochotni: I would like to see guidelines not covering old style
16:31:03 <sochotni> akurtakov: yeah, so new packages have to use new style?
16:31:08 <akurtakov> if all supported fedora releases can use the new style
16:31:10 <sochotni> I am more than fine with that
16:31:14 <akurtakov> sochotni: yes
16:31:21 <misc> what about EPEL ?
16:31:36 <akurtakov> misc: there is no maven in epel
16:31:52 <akurtakov> if one wants to package it, he/she would better start using the new way
16:32:18 <akurtakov> anyway, even if one starts now he would not get it in the next 2 months
16:32:26 <akurtakov> in the most optimistic case
16:32:51 <vanaltj> +1 to if there is new style which is simpler, let guidelines show that.
16:33:10 <sochotni> ok, well currently new style wouldn't work in F18 and lower
16:33:19 <sochotni> but we will work on that
16:33:21 <tradej> i'm for mentioning the new style only, with a separate legacy page for the old style
16:33:24 <vanaltj> ah, so slow transition...
16:33:42 <sochotni> vanaltj: I am not sure we'll be able to get 100% same spec files
16:33:49 <sochotni> mostly due to BR: maven-local change
16:34:38 <sochotni> nah, my bad...we can do even that
16:34:45 <sochotni> so we can have same specs in F17+
16:35:02 <mizdebsk> we'll make the new style work in all supported Fedoras
16:35:14 <pingou> cool
16:35:14 <sochotni> but changing spec mid-release to XMvn...well...
16:35:20 <mizdebsk> so people will be able to merge master with stable branches
16:35:27 <sochotni> you'd suddenly get auto-requires
16:35:41 <sochotni> which is OK, if people are careful
16:36:06 <vanaltj> yes legacy page, perhaps with mention on new style page, so nobody is tempted to demand old packages get updated when they work just fine still.
16:36:10 <mizdebsk> the thing is that *if* someone wants to update their packages they can do it in any branches
16:36:16 <vanaltj> but having the option to update mid-release seems nice.
16:36:18 <sochotni> indeed
16:36:24 <mizdebsk> if you want to keep the old style you can do it too, even in master
16:36:33 <mizdebsk> the old style is still supported (at least for now)
16:37:01 <akurtakov> well, packaging guidelines are for new packages
16:37:04 <mizdebsk> some time later we can decide if we want to drop the old style or not
16:37:13 * mizdebsk hopes we will
16:37:19 <akurtakov> as according to fedora rules you need a reason to push an update
16:37:30 <akurtakov> just changing the build system is not one
16:37:51 <sochotni> ok, we'll get a proper "New Guidelines" meeting in a few weeks I'd say
16:37:56 <sochotni> I'd aim for 2 :-)
16:38:08 * tradej doesn't like the idea of updating mid-release, but doesn't oppose it per se
16:38:08 <sochotni> akurtakov: you can commit and not build :-)
16:38:22 <mizdebsk> by this time we'll prepare guidelines draft and make the new style work in all Fedoras
16:38:23 <akurtakov> sochotni: who cares in this case :0
16:38:40 <akurtakov> for released versions it's updates that matter
16:38:46 <sochotni> oh, yeah another cool think IMO: http://mizdebsk.fedorapeople.org/xmvn/cookbook/
16:38:49 <mizdebsk> new style doesn't force anyone to update enything, you can keep the old style...
16:38:49 <akurtakov> for development we are already in agreement
16:39:07 <sochotni> we have semi-automated doc generation which is also a test-case for new stuff
16:39:13 <vanaltj> akurtakov: well, once it's committed to branch if there *is* an update upstream then the new version will be there (unless new commit reverting)
16:39:32 <akurtakov> vanaltj: but it's gonna be same maintainer :)
16:39:42 <akurtakov> whom I trust to not do stuff drunk :)
16:39:52 <vanaltj> lots of trust ;)
16:40:42 <sochotni> #action msrb to continue working on new guidelines
16:40:58 <msrb> ok
16:41:06 <sochotni> #action mizdebsk to work on getting XMvn macros/code into F17+
16:42:34 <sochotni> OK, so I guess we can finish this for now?
16:42:35 <vanaltj> silly question: why call this "XMvn"?
16:42:48 <sochotni> vanaltj: :-) mizdebsk you want to answer?
16:42:54 * mizdebsk is not going to answer
16:43:05 <sochotni> then I will I guess..
16:43:14 <sochotni> we couldn't come up with something better :-)
16:43:20 <vanaltj> haha :)
16:43:24 <sochotni> eXtensions for Maven
16:43:39 <sochotni> it's not really tied to Fedora or RPM for that matter
16:43:44 <vanaltj> ah that makes some sense.
16:44:11 <tradej> I do believe we can come up with a new name, or use the full name in official communication
16:44:15 <sochotni> at one point we should probably get in touch with other distros (debian comes to mind). Maybe we could share that part...
16:44:29 <sochotni> but that's a bit in the future
16:44:39 <vanaltj> I'm looking at feature page, and maybe this is not intentional but calling it Xmvn but then the example spec has BR "maven-local"
16:45:08 <sochotni> vanaltj: yeah, maven-local is XMvn + distribution glue (i.e. macros etc)
16:45:24 <mizdebsk> XMvn is distro-agnostic, it doesn't know anything about Fedora or RPM
16:45:25 <vanaltj> to encourage adoption, I'd suggest some 1:1:1 between feature name, BR, project name.
16:45:41 <mizdebsk> maven-local is a set of scripts and macros which call XMvn to do the dirty work
16:45:48 <vanaltj> ah.
16:46:03 <sochotni> that's not to say there is no way we can't improve the situation
16:46:16 <mizdebsk> XMvn itself is pure-Java package
16:46:28 <mizdebsk> and maven-local is pure bash + rpm macros
16:46:46 <mizdebsk> during package build you need macros and shell scripts, hence BR: maven-local
16:47:24 <vanaltj> right, this is just documentation issue, but coming from outside this work it's a little opaque to me the way it is now (I'm more likely to use things I understand :)
16:47:43 <vanaltj> (but thanks for the explanation!)
16:48:03 <sochotni> vanaltj: I felt the same way truth be told
16:48:09 <sochotni> still do to a degree
16:48:40 <sochotni> the feature page should be renamed, that much we agreed on a bit earlier
16:49:13 <sochotni> not sure if it requires some process or I can just do it in wiki
16:50:15 <sochotni> #action ask jreznik about XMvn feature rename
16:50:21 <sochotni> #undo
16:50:21 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0xeb463d0>
16:50:23 <sochotni> #action sochotni ask jreznik about XMvn feature rename
16:50:33 * jreznik is around
16:50:46 <sochotni> jreznik: :-) OK, is it a problem to rename XMvn feature?
16:50:56 <sochotni> or can I "Just do it" in wiki?
16:51:38 <sochotni> I am mostly thinking about automated tools which might break possibly
16:52:25 <jreznik> sochotni: rename it and let me know, I'll update the rest
16:52:32 <sochotni> jreznik: ok
16:52:40 <sochotni> so with that I'll end the meeting
16:52:48 <sochotni> you have 20 seconds to stop me :-)
16:53:10 <vanaltj> final questoin:
16:53:24 <vanaltj> other than providing feedback, what sort of help is needed?
16:53:46 <sochotni> vanaltj: well, it would be nice if you started trying it out I guess
16:53:59 <mizdebsk> migrating your packages to the new style and reporting any problems
16:54:01 <sochotni> get acquainted with things, ask if something is unclear
16:54:17 <vanaltj> this stuff is already in rawhide and what other branches?
16:54:23 <sochotni> vanaltj: rawhide only
16:54:28 <sochotni> at least currently
16:54:40 <mizdebsk> only rawhide for now, but I will get it into all Fedoras (F17+) in the next few days
16:54:58 <vanaltj> ok, will look there first, watch for my yelling on mailing list if things are horrible :)
16:55:11 <sochotni> You could also read cookbook examples and if something seems missing, let us know
16:55:21 <sochotni> vanaltj: that would be wonderful!
16:55:41 <sochotni> vanaltj: some things work quite differently (i.e. additional depmaps)
16:55:59 <sochotni> so that will probably take some time to get used to
16:56:24 <vanaltj> fwiw, I like the new depmap syntax, from glancing over the slides.
16:56:35 <sochotni> vanaltj: /etc/rpm/macros.xmvn should contain docs on using the macros
16:56:49 <sochotni> yeah, wildcards are a nice thing
16:57:22 <sochotni> #endmeeting