17:00:05 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2012-12-13)
17:00:05 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Dec 13 17:00:05 2012 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:05 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:06 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
17:00:06 <nirik> #topic init process
17:00:06 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
17:00:17 <nirik> who all is around for irc sig meeting?
17:00:56 * dcr226 skips gayly around the channel
17:02:45 <nirik> ha
17:02:55 * BobJensen 
17:04:16 <nirik> ok, I guess we should go ahead... probibly a short meeting.
17:04:23 <nirik> #topic Week in review
17:04:23 <nirik> http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html
17:04:36 <nirik> anyone have anything to note from the previous week?
17:04:39 <nirik> trends, etc?
17:05:40 <nirik> more folks on f18... but I haven't seen all that much common issues, etc yet.
17:05:42 <BobJensen> underscores: It's about time you showed up
17:05:48 <dcr226> Bob @ #2...hardcore
17:05:57 <nirik> it will be interesting to see how well fedup works for people.
17:06:15 <BobJensen> dcr226: it's hard work keeping up with the SMS crowd
17:06:43 <dcr226> BobJensen, SMS crowd?
17:06:47 <BobJensen> Yeah, I was hoping to give fedup a run yesterday
17:07:01 <BobJensen> But I played Bingo instead
17:07:02 * nirik is optomistic that it will be a nice step up from preupgrade.
17:07:27 <BobJensen> the devs of fedup want our input as things come up
17:07:58 <BobJensen> wwoods, and... damn I forgot the other nick
17:08:15 <wwoods> nope, just me
17:08:17 <nirik> tflink has been working on it from the qa side. ;)
17:08:29 <nirik> but yeah, just wwoods, uberhacker. ;)
17:08:29 <BobJensen> nirik: that is the nick
17:08:59 <wwoods> bug creator AND bug fixer
17:09:15 <BobJensen> If we see something lets get them the info so we can make it a viable tool, a better user experience than preFAILupgrade was.
17:09:19 <wwoods> gatekeeper AND keymaster
17:09:19 <nirik> brewer, patriot? ;)
17:09:32 <wwoods> don't forget gentleman and scholar
17:09:50 <nirik> :)
17:10:16 <wwoods> anyway I should put up some pictures of the in-progress UI for review
17:10:17 <nirik> wwoods: so, standard drill, get folks to file bugs, etc?
17:10:37 <BobJensen> wwoods: I'll try getting a run at an upgrade of a cloned system here, on hardware for you today or tomorrow.
17:10:39 <wwoods> well, yeah, but familiarize yourselves with known bugs / common problems first
17:11:10 <pingou> wwoods: there are ? three machine with fedup and 0 problem for me :]
17:11:12 <wwoods> getting a lot of CLOSED NOTABUG reports that turn out to be things like "user had a power outage during the install that he somehow didn't notice"
17:11:34 <wwoods> or "user is running virtualbox and the drivers are out of date so the system seems to hang on reboot"
17:12:13 <nirik> always fun.
17:12:26 <wwoods> the missing plymouth progress screen is the most obvious thing right now - patch is upstream, needs a new plymouth build and rebuilt upgrade.img to fix
17:12:46 <wwoods> so 'til then, "plymouth.splash=fedup" is a good idea
17:13:02 <wwoods> I guess I could patch the F17 package to add that, for now
17:13:21 <BobJensen> wwoods: Links for known issues and general instructions?
17:13:28 <nirik> right now the upgrade.img from beta is getting used?
17:13:38 <wwoods> nirik: yeah
17:13:52 <wwoods> general instructions, um. I know there's tflink's testing instructions/notes somewhere
17:14:00 * nirik has some links, just a sec.
17:14:10 <nirik> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedUp
17:14:24 <nirik> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA%3AFedora_18_Upgrade_Testing
17:14:49 <wwoods> yeah, the first link has the right info
17:14:57 <nirik> so, we will still be using the beta img until after f18 release I guess. ;( so yeah, a f17 package with the splash might be good.
17:15:02 <wwoods> and --instrepo won't be required once mirrormanager changes happen
17:15:08 <digitalknight> hello all,when do we expect the meeting to start?
17:15:36 <BobJensen> digitalknight: Depending on what meeting... 15 minutes ago
17:15:51 <nirik> digitalknight: the irc support sig meeting is on right now. if you mean the infra meeting thats not for a few hours.
17:16:45 <BobJensen> wwoods: Thanks for the input Will
17:16:46 <nirik> anyhow, we will see how things go. ;)
17:16:55 <nirik> #info test fedup, get folks to report bugs.
17:17:30 <nirik> anything else on fedup or for week in review?
17:18:05 <wwoods> also keep track of when it works *right* so I don't feel so bad (ps thanks pingou! :D)
17:18:08 <digitalknight> oh sorry :)
17:18:13 <digitalknight> I am here for infra meeting
17:19:04 <BobJensen> Moving on?
17:19:25 <nirik> yeah... we have two tickets. we discussed them a bit last week, but there was only 2 folks here, so I didn't want to close them yet.
17:19:31 <nirik> #topic ticket #132 Sick of "you want me to support someone, pay me" attitude in #fedora
17:19:31 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/132
17:19:56 <BobJensen> I have to speak up about this ticket.
17:20:25 * nirik personally doesn't understand what the issue is... it doesn't make sense to me.
17:20:33 <BobJensen> It is nothing more than a rambling vent. It takes discussions between other parties out of context.
17:20:47 <dcr226> nirik, too much student beer
17:21:21 <nirik> dunno. IMHO there are completely valid reasons to disengage and stop helping someone...
17:21:32 <BobJensen> I was helping a user, I let the user know that I would not be able to continue.
17:22:10 <nirik> you have to go, you get called away, you think someone else could help better, you see the user getting frustrated and think a break would help you both, you are getting frustrated and don't want to say anything bad to the user, and so on...
17:22:25 <BobJensen> A third party questioned my desire to stop helping them, implied that I "had to continue" I told them that they could pay me to support someone if they wanted.
17:22:52 <BobJensen> and I stand by that.
17:23:06 * dcr226 would like to note he'll undercut Bob's hourly rate...just sayin'
17:23:09 <nirik> perhaps the objection was about the pay comment? ie, if someone did pay you they would feel bad that you were the only one being paid to provide support?
17:23:35 <BobJensen> If we are going to be required to help EVERYONE with EVERYTHING no matter what... then get the money rolling because that sounds like a job to me.
17:23:35 <nirik> anyhow, proposal: close with 'if you have concrete changes to propose, please do. Thanks for the discussion"
17:24:13 <dcr226> nirik, +1
17:24:40 <nirik> I mean I agree we should be polite when bowing out... "sorry, I can't help you further right now, good luck"
17:24:52 <BobJensen> As for my stance on SElinux, if a user disables SElinux for NO reason, NO errors, they are making a poor choice IMO and I will not help them.
17:24:53 <nirik> but I haven't really seen anyone being otherwise that I recall.
17:25:33 <nirik> sure, all thats personal decision... like if you wish to help folks from embargoed countries, or if you will help people install non free software.
17:25:41 <dcr226> BobJensen, doesn't matter. Your reason can be "you have blue eyes", its volunteer work..you don't need to justify your reason for not helping
17:25:49 * nirik nods.
17:26:03 <BobJensen> I will commonly encourage them to get things back in order and help them, BUT not when it is going to derail what they are trying to solve at that time.
17:26:14 <nirik> someone could be too picky to be useful in a community... but I think we are very far from that.
17:26:16 <dcr226> personally I'll refuse to help anyone with smelly feet. If they own up to it in the channel, I'm out
17:26:43 <BobJensen> The user in this case has since enabled SElinux and has no errors involved IIRC
17:27:07 <nirik> right... if someone in this sig said "I refuse to help people who use Fedora" I think we would have to ask them to go somewhere else... ;)
17:27:17 <dcr226> :)
17:27:18 <nirik> anyhow, we are beating a dead horse. ;)
17:27:19 * BobJensen nods
17:27:25 <nirik> next ticket?
17:27:37 <BobJensen> Bring it...
17:27:39 <BobJensen> ;)
17:27:45 <nirik> #topic ticket #131 Uncalled-for behaviour on #fedora
17:27:46 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/131
17:27:55 <nirik> proposal: close this with "thanks for the feedback"
17:28:05 <nirik> I don't actually see any bad behavior.
17:28:20 <BobJensen> proposal: close this with "Piss Off"
17:28:24 <BobJensen> ;)
17:28:26 <dcr226> HAHAHAHA
17:28:47 <nirik> heh.
17:29:00 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
17:29:09 <BobJensen> Hey
17:29:10 <nirik> anything for open floor? suggestions? comments?
17:29:16 <BobJensen> What about my other ticket
17:29:23 <nirik> hum?
17:29:25 * nirik looks
17:29:34 <BobJensen> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/133
17:29:36 <dcr226> he wants a pat on the back
17:29:40 <dcr226> BobJensen++
17:29:42 <dcr226> ;-P
17:29:48 <nirik> oh oops. ;)
17:29:53 <BobJensen> Stroke me a little after the beating
17:29:56 <BobJensen> ;)
17:30:02 <nirik> #topic ticket #133 Kudos to BobJensen for helping out in #fedora
17:30:07 <nirik> kudos to BobJensen
17:30:08 <nirik> :)
17:30:08 <dcr226> :-)
17:30:19 <BobJensen> Was a simple fix in the end
17:30:26 * dcr226 hometime, later
17:30:32 <dcr226> s/hometime/nachotime
17:30:41 <BobJensen> Not a lot of damage done and was able to help clean their system up.
17:30:47 <nirik> nice. ;)
17:30:53 <nirik> #topic Open Floor again
17:31:09 <nirik> does someone want to close tickets? or I guess I can.
17:31:23 <BobJensen> New users getting bad advice from who knows where
17:31:59 <nirik> there's a lot of it out there. ;(
17:32:18 <BobJensen> We see this with every release cycle, as in the case of Ticket 133 an untrusted repo with history, that shall not be named.
17:32:49 * nirik nods.
17:32:56 <BobJensen> Lately these have been easy to clean up and have not required a clean install as they did in the past.
17:33:31 <BobJensen> I urge you all to TRY to help clean them up, or send them to me, before getting drastic.
17:33:48 <nirik> I think it's less overlapping than in the past
17:34:16 <BobJensen> The user will appreciate it in the end and they also get the chance to learn somehting from their mistakes
17:34:40 <BobJensen> nirik: the big thing is "yum update" fails rather than replacing core packages/files
17:35:09 <BobJensen> Or has been seen to fail more often
17:35:31 <underscores> BobJensen: do you mean by untrusted repos. repos from 3rd party providers that are neither livna nor rpmfusion? (which usually work)
17:36:01 <BobJensen> underscores: Correct, there is a repo out there that has a long history of being... less friendly
17:36:24 <BobJensen> underscores: does not integrate well with Fedora and RPM Fusion
17:36:47 <nirik> anyhow, anything further? or shall we call it a meeting?
17:37:12 <BobJensen> I admit that I have used it in the past, but you had to  be incredibly careful.
17:38:15 <BobJensen> nirik: can we cancel the holiday week meeting now?
17:38:28 <nirik> sure... the 27th?
17:38:31 <BobJensen> nirik: No meeting on Dec 27
17:38:35 <BobJensen> right
17:38:37 <nirik> sounds good to me.
17:38:46 <nirik> #info no meeting on 2012-12-27
17:39:40 <BobJensen> also, I want to urge people to speak up if they have somethign they want to cover and we might otherwise cancel our meeting
17:40:04 <BobJensen> a lot of times we have been canceling because we have no tickets
17:40:23 <BobJensen> send something to the list if it comes to mind
17:40:25 <nirik> yep. very true
17:40:41 <BobJensen> that's it from me.
17:40:47 <nirik> #info please send topics to the list and/or file tickets.
17:41:13 <nirik> thanks for coming everyone!
17:41:16 <nirik> #endmeeting